Frazier vs Holmes

[ricardoparker93]

Ok maybe it's wrong to have two Frazier fantasy matchups running at the same time but this is one fight I have had on my mind for a while now. Can Frazier hunt down Holmes get past that jab and do a job on him? Or does the Easton Assasin control the fight with his jab and bottle him up when Joe gets inside.

Personally I think that Joe stops him late after losing the first 6.

It's 15 rounds 8 oz gloves

Make your picks! :good

[he grant]

Over 15 it's Frazier but over 12 it could go either way ... another amazing, competitive bout ...

[Duodenum]

Inside, Larry had a deadly uppercut, as he showed against Weaver, and he could clinch well. The hook was never a particularly useful weapon against Holmes. A great right cross was needed, and Joe didn't have it. Also, Larry didn't give away body shots like Ali did. Holmes displayed 15 round stamina in leading both Berbick and Cobb wire to wire (pitching a shutout on many cards in each instance).

Larry (of Shavers II and Cobb) takes a rugged decision over the Frazier of 1969 and 1970. He wasn't as physically tough or athletically gifted as Ali, but he was smarter, and would use his ring intelligence to avoid absorbing the same level of debilitating punishment which depleted Muhammad. Holmes would not foolishly attempt rope a doping, but instead subject Joe to a fighting retreat, making Frazier pay for every inch of ground conceded. Smoke's head would be a grotesquely swollen mess after this one. Larry's hands, arms and body would hurt like hell by the end.

Any stoppage would be produced by Joe getting blinded, either through facial swelling, or from one of those infamous and notorious Holmes thumbs (except that Smoke was a clean fighter for his style, and I expect that Larry would reciprocate by refraining from foul shenanigans), but my safer guess is that it goes the distance. No knockdowns.

[McGrain]

I like Frazier big versus any classical boxer type. Fast pressure, consistant punishment and points gathering, and permenantly contesting range and tempo.

[PetethePrince]

It's one of the hardest fantasy fights to call.

[ricardoparker93]

Certainly a tough fight to call. Both guys bring something different to the table. But i don't feel that Frazier is going to let Holmes dictate with his jab and i think he would put his mark on the fight. Like Mcgrain said Frazier is a beast against any boxer type fighter.

[SteveO]

Good matchup. A real thinker.

It's a war, for sure. I think Frazier gets a UD but Holmes certainly has his rounds, specifically the earlier ones.

[TommyV]

If anybody could neutralize Holmes' jab it would be Frazier. And if he can do that, then given he was able to pin down Ali and land, I think he'd be able to do it with Holmes.

[MRBILL]

Ok maybe it's wrong to have two Frazier fantasy matchups running at the same time but this is one fight I have had on my mind for a while now. Can Frazier hunt down Holmes get past that jab and do a job on him? Or does the Easton Assasin control the fight with his jab and bottle him up when Joe gets inside.

Personally I think that Joe stops him late after losing the first 6.

It's 15 rounds 8 oz gloves

Make your picks! :good

Frazier was proven very beatable and out-pointable by a trained and tuned Ali in '74 and 1975...... Larry Holmes' style is closely related to Ali's style... So therefore, I see Holmes schooling Frazier with lefts and rights along with plenty of leg movement, too...... Holmes wins a 15 rounder in a tuff fight....

MR.BILL:hat

[PetethePrince]

Whoever said Frazier was underrated was wrong. This is a 50/50 fight for me but he's slightly winning the poll. I think people have more of an affinity to Frazier than Holmes. I don't blame them, though.

[ricardoparker93]

Frazier was proven very beatable and out-pointable by a trained and tuned Ali in '74 and 1975...... Larry Holmes' style is closely related to Ali's style... So therefore, I see Holmes schooling Frazier with lefts and rights along with plenty of leg movement, too...... Holmes wins a 15 rounder in a tuff fight....

MR.BILL:hat

1. The fight in 74 was relatively close and I feel still winnable for Frazier if the fight had been over the championship distance.

2. That was about 3 years after Fraziers prime.

3. Holmes doesn't have the footwork to dance from Frazier all night, his only option is a fighting retreat using his jab to keep Frazier off balance and then bottling him up inside or whipping in the uppercut.

4. Who ever schooled Frazier exactly? It's virtually impossible to 'school' Frazier, you have to get him out of there quick like Foreman or prepare for a long night.

[MRBILL]

1. The fight in 74 was relatively close and I feel still winnable for Frazier if the fight had been over the championship distance.

2. That was about 3 years after Fraziers prime.

3. Holmes doesn't have the footwork to dance from Frazier all night, his only option is a fighting retreat using his jab to keep Frazier off balance and then bottling him up inside or whipping in the uppercut.

4. Who ever schooled Frazier exactly? It's virtually impossible to 'school' Frazier, you have to get him out of there quick like Foreman or prepare for a long night.

I disagree...... Ali beat Frazier with ease in 1974 and Frazier was way behind going into round 12........ Ali is also TWO yrs older than Frazier is, as well........

Holmes proved his skill and metal against "Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Snipes and Cooney." I cannot see Frazier hitting Holmes harder than he's ever been hit before.... I just can't see that....... And Frazier's left-hook was his only real KO blow to be thrown by him.......

Larry Holmes was a much better boxer with blessed hand and foot speed and great skill, along with a concrete beard........ Holmes beats Frazier in a prime for prime match.......... Let's move on here....
:thumbsup

MR.BILL

[I am Legion]

Frazier was too easy to hit and would have to eat Larrys jab all night. Very hard fight for both but Holmes wins the last three to take a unanimous decision.

[janitor]

I can't see Holmes keeping Frazier off him or keeping out of his way.

Frazier would get him in the end.

[I am Legion]

I can't see Holmes keeping Frazier off him or keeping out of his way.

Frazier would get him in the end.

I cant see Frazier being able to avoid that Jab; his face would be smashed to bits. Holmes wins a tough fight.

[ricardoparker93]

I cant see Frazier being able to avoid that Jab; his face would be smashed to bits. Holmes wins a tough fight.

Have you ever watched Joe Frazier fight?

[ricardoparker93]

I disagree...... Ali beat Frazier with ease in 1974 and Frazier was way behind going into round 12........ Ali is also TWO yrs older than Frazier is, as well........

Holmes proved his skill and metal against "Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Snipes and Cooney." I cannot see Frazier hitting Holmes harder than he's ever been hit before.... I just can't see that....... And Frazier's left-hook was his only real KO blow to be thrown by him.......

Larry Holmes was a much better boxer with blessed hand and foot speed and great skill, along with a concrete beard........ Holmes beats Frazier in a prime for prime match.......... Let's move on here....
:thumbsup

MR.BILL

Ok firstly Larry Holmes is not Muhammad Ali. He is not blessed with the hand or foot spead and relies on his consistency and beautiful one two to keep fighters at long range and fighting at his tempo.

The fact that Larry had to show his metal against guys like Snipes and Weaver speaks volumes about how much he would struggle with the relentless machine that was Frazier in 70/71. It's a bad style match up for Larry and thats why I feel he loses this one.

[janitor]

[quote=I am Legion;5973358]I cant see Frazier being able to avoid that Jab; his face would be smashed to bits.

Neither can I, and yes it would.


Holmes wins a tough fight.


I still think that the irresistable force would triumph on this ocasion.

[MRBILL]

I give a Goddamn, folks... I've got Frazier and Holmes on tapes galore, etc........ I know what both guys can do............ And Larry Holmes of 1978 to 1983 had all the tools and savvy to slice, dice and hammer a '69 / '70 Joseph Frazier all about the ring for a good decision win..... Holmes' jab is the best the division ever saw, and his right-cross deserved / demanded respect when it landed flush..... I also think Larry Holmes had better upper body strength, while Frazier gets the edge in the leg strength dept...... Still, I see Holmes as too skilled, savvy and quick with his hands and feet to lose to a pressuring J.F. who is merely looking to hook Holmes to death....... Holmes was also never a sucker for a left-hook; it was the counter right that caught Holmes a couple of times......... I'm sorry, Jack......... Holmes wins.........

MR.BILL

[Minotauro]

I see Frazier beating Holmes over 15.

[Duodenum]

Late in Joe's final pre peak fight, his rematch with Bonavena, Ringo did have some success boxing and retreating behind his jab. Again, Frazier only reached his peak as a result of getting those 15 hard rounds under his belt, but Larry was light years ahead of Oscar when at his best. At his best, did he have the legs to dance away from Frazier all night? Check out Holmes-Shavers I again. Could he sustain a fighting retreat for 15 rounds? Review the complete Cobb footage.

Again, Joe's bread and butter was his hook, but the hook was never Larry's Kryptonite. It comes down to who scores the most punches, and Holmes had the right hand to score over Smoke's cross armed defense, as well as that incessant jab. Unlike Ali, he'd either be moving to evade Frazier's hook to the body, or otherwise defending against it. Cooney's entire game plan was based upon getting his hook downstairs, to no avail. Would Joe really score with more punches than a Holmes who would never mimic Ali's punching bag against the ropes act?

When Smoke did connect, he was no Shavers in the power department (or even Cooney). He'd have to take Larry out to win. I don't see that happening. Nobody beat a prime Holmes through attrition, and it took a unique ATG boxing stylist to finally blemish his record. He twice dominated the super aggressive Shavers on the scorecards, certainly demonstrating his ability to deal with pressure, and Earnie was dedicating his two fisted attack to Larry's body both times.

Norton was dominated over the first ten rounds before the training injury to the Holmes left began to tell, and Kenny's hook and cross armed defense were somewhat reminiscent of Joe's. (Of course Ken didn't bring Joe's pressure, but then again, Frazier did not share the same caliber right hand Norton brought to the table.)

Of course this would be a hellish war for both. For me, Joe's a top five ATG HW, while Larry's among my top three.

[Longhhorn71]

Holmes jab is even more powerful than Ali's.......and for some reason he wasn't as vunerable to left hooks either (the right hand was Larry's bug-a-boo).

Could be "dark clouds" for Frazier.

[Waynegrade]

Great fight ! The reason I tend to go towards Frazier, is styles make fights. Holmes jab alone, wouldn`t be enough to keep Smokin Joe off of him for all 15... You need bombs to keep Frazier off of you for a whole fight. He would bob and weave his way past some(but not all) of Holmes blistering jab. And work that body, following up with his signature left hook to the head. I`m talking about `Smokin` Joe 71` edition. Frazier UD or possible late rd TKO. Her I go, you could also make a case for Holmes 15 rd. UD But I`m sticking with Frazier... Tough fight the whole way...

[RockyJim]

Good fight...I like Joe...

[Kalasinn]

If anybody could neutralize Holmes' jab it would be Frazier. And if he can do that, then given he was able to pin down Ali and land, I think he'd be able to do it with Holmes.
Damn right, Frazier by UD if he doesn't stop Holmes late.

[MRBILL]

Holmes jab is even more powerful than Ali's.......and for some reason he wasn't as vunerable to left hooks either (the right hand was Larry's bug-a-boo).

Could be "dark clouds" for Frazier.

Fuckin' A., Man......:good

MR.BILL

[Bill1234]

I think Holmes would beat him by close decision. Larry punched harder than Ali, and would punish Joe more on the way in. When Joe got inside, Larry had the powerful uppercut that he would be looking to rip into Joe.

Frazier on the other had was hard to hit with more than 1 or 2 punches at a time and was very good at getting to the inside quickly. When he got inside he would outwork Larry and dig his hook into Larry's ribs. Joe would also probably be able to drag Holmes into a few slugging matches, would work into Frazier's hands better.

All in all Larry takes it in a tough, close, and clear ud over 15 rounds.

[redrooster]

I would put my money on Holmes too

[Boxed Ears]

If I had to bet, I'd go with Holmes. I'd be rooting for Joe but no. Realistically, I'd see it as an extremely grueling fight for both participants but Holmes was just too diverse and durable for me to think Frazier stops him and I simply don't see Joe outpointing him. Then again, some of Joe's most famous performances we can judge him from were not in his prime because of the eyes and other health concerns. And the best Larry fought in his prime was probably a faded Norton who pushed him to the limit. But Holmes was supposedly hurt going into that one. Okay, boys. I'm going to stop myself here because I sense I could go back and forth on this for about an hour.

[natonic]

I think this is a very close fight. I don't think Holmes is as good as pre-exile Ali, but I think he was better than any version of ALi that Frazier fought. As others have said, Holmes makes Joe pay on the way in, doesn't lay around and take punishment, and does some damage with an uppercut. Holmes for me.

[dezbeast]

I voted Holmes on points, but I really see this fight being a toss up. Holmes would have to utilize his skills to the fullest to beat a peak Frazier. Over 15 rounds, I see him succeeding roughly 5 out of 10 fights. In 12 rounds it could be more.

[I am Legion]

Have you ever watched Joe Frazier fight?

Many times. Holmes wins.

[RockysSplitNose]

Similar in the early stages to Frazier-Ali I - Frazier, 205, comes out pretty quick looking like he's going straight to work but like against Ali he dosen't actually throw any punches at all for about the first minute and a half allowing Larry, 209, to quickly establish his strong jab - the power he has on th jab might cause Frazier some problems - Ali threw mainly bolo punches in the early going against Frazier and couldn't miss - but Larry doesn't throw anything other then endless jabs and occassional following right hands - Larry like Ali would find Joe easy to tye up and like Ali over the first three rounds Larry would land everything he throws - Joe finds it really difficult to get past Larry's jab. Joe tended to wait and take shots while he planted his feet - then he'd dig his heals in and slug away - but he'd do nothing in between - one thing I noticed from watching Fraziers fights is that Joe never ever punched on the way in he'd wait until he got right in close.

It was usually round about the 4th round that Joe would find his range which is about the round opponents usually started to find theirs against Larry - by the 6th I don't think Larry would even have tryed to hurt Frazier yet - Holmes never seemed to really take the offensive until mid-to-late - Frazier would get in some of his vicious body shots now and then but overall Larry would dominate behind the jab but the few times I see Frazier getting some really hurtful shots I think Larry would quickly go into his Ali-impersonation and start his dancing around at high speed - as long as he isn't exhausted Larry was really good at re-establishing control of the pace the second an opponent had any kind of success - the problem I see for Frazier is that against Holmes he wouldn't be getting his shots off and when he did it would just be to late in the round - he would continue to plough forward into Holmes and would have better chances to give Holmes a working over in the second half of the fight but just as much I think we'd see Frazier happily falling into clinches to rest on Holmes too often - Holmes as a rule always moved to his own left around the ring and when he did move the other way didn't look anywhere near as smooth so think he'd probably get wobbled by the left hook when trying to go to his right.

90% of Larry's punches were jabs (and the other 10% occasional following right hands) - he never ever throws hooks at all - ever. He fight in a pretty one dimensional way in that respect, never does anything differently and always fights at the same pace - a bit boring to watch as just jab, jab, jab, dull & unexciting but virtually impossible to beat for someone who doesn't actually throw enough punches like Frazier - Larry might start to look a bit tired in the last couple of rounds but over the course of 15 rounds Larry would have put too many rounds in the bank for Frazier to be able to claw back - Larry wins it fairly clearly.

[randeris]

Frazier is a beast against Holmes types. He would get tagged, but he is damn durable and would get to Holmes who has slower feet than Ali.

[Stevie G]

Holmes would definitely win the early rounds. Frazier would start coming on strong throught the middle of the fight,and he'd probably win most of the later rounds. It would go to a close decision. Frazier could take it,providing he wins enough seesions after the first third of the fight.

[TommyV]

Many times. Holmes wins.

And yet you called him 'easy to hit'?

[JohnThomas1]

Many saying Holmes had no drama's with left hooks, but when the hell did Holmes face an ATG left hook like Fraziers?!?!?!! :roll:

I say toss a coin. Personally take Holmes via split with BOTH down.

[ricardoparker93]

And yet you called him 'easy to hit'?

This is what i was thinking. :lol:

[Bill1234]

Many saying Holmes had no drama's with left hooks, but when the hell did Holmes face an ATG left hook like Fraziers?!?!?!! :roll:

I say toss a coin. Personally take Holmes via split with BOTH down.

Cooney had a great left hook. Holyfield's hook wasn't bad either. Maybe not on the level of Frazier, but Cooney's was at least as hard.

[JohnThomas1]

14-14, surprise, surprise. Exactly the way it should be. Anyone predicting a relatively easy win either way or completely confident one way or another needs to find a new hobby.

[JohnThomas1]

Cooney had a great left hook. Holyfield's hook wasn't bad either. Maybe not on the level of Frazier, but Cooney's was at least as hard.

Cooney had fukk all on Frazier Bill. Don't mistake raw power for greatness. The only facet Cooney's hook matched Frazier's in was power. Frazier's was infinitely better utilized and 100% proven vs top shelf opponents.

[RockysSplitNose]

At times I go through phases of under-rating Holmes but then I watch one of his fights again and think actually.

Watched Holmes-Norton again today - first time properly watched it in years - Holmes actually dominated that one looking back and he did it with literally one punch - the jab I scored it pretty clearly for Holmes 8 rounds to 4 and 3 even (and more than one of the rounds I gave to Norton I was being kind/giving the benefit of the doubt to him - Norton was nothing like the one who faced Ali, nothing like it but Larry just pumped that jab and really made it hard for people to get into the fight - especially when they didn't throw many punches in the first place - he commanded things, was very disciplined and concentrated his eyes right on the opponent in front of him - great boxer - but dull dull dull, wouldn't get involved - and unfortunately I think Joe needed somebody who would get involved and take the odd risk - Holmes wouldn't give you the ball in that respect.

[ricardoparker93]

At times I go through phases of under-rating Holmes but then I watch one of his fights again and think actually.

Watched Holmes-Norton again today - first time properly watched it in years - Holmes actually dominated that one looking back and he did it with literally one punch - the jab I scored it pretty clearly for Holmes 8 rounds to 4 and 3 even (and more than one of the rounds I gave to Norton I was being kind/giving the benefit of the doubt to him - Norton was nothing like the one who faced Ali, nothing like it but Larry just pumped that jab and really made it hard for people to get into the fight - especially when they didn't throw many punches in the first place - he commanded things, was very disciplined and concentrated his eyes right on the opponent in front of him - great boxer - but dull dull dull, wouldn't get involved - and unfortunately I think Joe needed somebody who would get involved and take the odd risk - Holmes wouldn't give you the ball in that respect.

I too am watching Holmes - Norton currently and Holmes has dictated the fight brilliantly with his jab over the first eight. However Kenny is applying SLOW pressure, he is letting himself get picked off. When he leaps in with his left or just bumrushes larry then he has success but he is constantly wary of Holmes jab.

I think Frazier is going to close him down much better in that respect, Holmes did best when he fought that fighting retrear. Making you pay for each step forward with that snapping jab or one two, Frazier will make him run and wear him down slowly I feel.

[djanders]

I have been thinking about this. I'm surprised it's giving me so much trouble. I guess I would go with Larry by decision...very close, hard fought decision...maybe a split decision. I didn't vote yet, because tomorrow I might change my mind on this one. Tough.

[mcvey]

1. The fight in 74 was relatively close and I feel still winnable for Frazier if the fight had been over the championship distance.

2. That was about 3 years after Fraziers prime.

3. Holmes doesn't have the footwork to dance from Frazier all night, his only option is a fighting retreat using his jab to keep Frazier off balance and then bottling him up inside or whipping in the uppercut.

4. Who ever schooled Frazier exactly? It's virtually impossible to 'school' Frazier, you have to get him out of there quick like Foreman or prepare for a long night.


And about 5 years after Ali's.

[Primadonna Kool]

Holmes wins, and everyone deep down knows this..

Everyone..!

People need to stop trying to be smart, just for the sake of the topic.

[Primadonna Kool]

1. The fight in 74 was relatively close and I feel still winnable for Frazier if the fight had been over the championship distance.

2. That was about 3 years after Fraziers prime.

3. Holmes doesn't have the footwork to dance from Frazier all night, his only option is a fighting retreat using his jab to keep Frazier off balance and then bottling him up inside or whipping in the uppercut.

4. Who ever schooled Frazier exactly? It's virtually impossible to 'school' Frazier, you have to get him out of there quick like Foreman or prepare for a long night.

Holmes could fight inside, just like he did against Norton..!

[mcvey]

Ok maybe it's wrong to have two Frazier fantasy matchups running at the same time but this is one fight I have had on my mind for a while now. Can Frazier hunt down Holmes get past that jab and do a job on him? Or does the Easton Assasin control the fight with his jab and bottle him up when Joe gets inside.

Personally I think that Joe stops him late after losing the first 6.

It's 15 rounds 8 oz gloves

Make your picks! :good

Holmes I voted for a dec win ,but he could stop Joe because of facial swelling.
Larry's jab is harder than Ali's ,and, so is his right cross.
Holmes was physically very strong too,probably stronger than Frazier.
The only way I see Holmes going down is if Frazier times him and lands a lefthook over a slow right uppercut ,the punch that Larry was so effective with.Then again Holmes was hit by harder punchers than Frazier,decked and got up to win.
I remember Frazier against Mathis , Joe was behind for the first seven rounds ,then he came on as Mathis began to gas out , due to the pace and the body punishment.Holmes was never in the shape Buster carried to the ring,even as an old man. He beats Frazier.

[RockysSplitNose]

I too am watching Holmes - Norton currently and Holmes has dictated the fight brilliantly with his jab over the first eight. However Kenny is applying SLOW pressure, he is letting himself get picked off. When he leaps in with his left or just bumrushes larry then he has success but he is constantly wary of Holmes jab.

I think Frazier is going to close him down much better in that respect, Holmes did best when he fought that fighting retrear. Making you pay for each step forward with that snapping jab or one two, Frazier will make him run and wear him down slowly I feel.

Hey there ricardoparker, have you got the full version of the first Frazier-Ali fight? I had a look at that to get a kind of comparison and just wanted to see if you agreed that Frazier throws much less punches than people usually make out? - people always go on about Fraziers work rate and incredible stamina but, I don't know, when I'm in a really critical mood then I say - Frazier hardly throws punches at all for the first 4 rounds or so (I wonder whether people, from memory, are thrown a bit bit all that busy-bee bobing and weaving/shoulder rolling) and then later in the fight I think his stamina goes just as much as Ali's in the end - I remember thinking when watching the first Frazier-Foreman fight aswell - prior to any of the knockdowns I was saying out loud "He just not throwing anything - he's wasting all this energy frantically bobbing up and down while Foreman just keeps pushing him off and teeing off - and Fraziers not actually punching? At all!?" May watch it again because obviously when the knockdowns begin that's pretty much it (just a case of how many times can he keep getting up before the ref stops it) - but I'd be interested to do a count of how many punches Frazier did land - not sure i'll need more than one hand even? Let me know if you got this impression from watching Frazier fights aswell

[ricardoparker93]

Holmes wins, and everyone deep down knows this..

Everyone..!

People need to stop trying to be smart, just for the sake of the topic.

It's a very tough match up. Do you not think the fact that Holmes stuggled with a 35 Ken Norton and Mike Weaver proves that Frazier has more than a fighting chance.

Do you not think there's a reason the poll is virtually 50/50?

[PowerPuncher]

Goto go with the better boxer in Holmes, I also aren't as sure Holmes is that open to left hands. Holmes said if Ali was that great he shouldnt have lost to Frazier. Then again Holmes had a very close fight with a similar lesser fighter in Witherspoon

[ricardoparker93]

Hey there ricardoparker, have you got the full version of the first Frazier-Ali fight? I had a look at that to get a kind of comparison and just wanted to see if you agreed that Frazier throws much less punches than people usually make out? - people always go on about Fraziers work rate and incredible stamina but, I don't know, when I'm in a really critical mood then I say - Frazier hardly throws punches at all for the first 4 rounds or so (I wonder whether people, from memory, are thrown a bit bit all that busy-bee bobing and weaving/shoulder rolling) and then later in the fight I think his stamina goes just as much as Ali's in the end - I remember thinking when watching the first Frazier-Foreman fight aswell - prior to any of the knockdowns I was saying out loud "He just not throwing anything - he's wasting all this energy frantically bobbing up and down while Foreman just keeps pushing him off and teeing off - and Fraziers not actually punching? At all!?" May watch it again because obviously when the knockdowns begin that's pretty much it (just a case of how many times can he keep getting up before the ref stops it) - but I'd be interested to do a count of how many punches Frazier did land - not sure i'll need more than one hand even? Let me know if you got this impression from watching Frazier fights aswell

I think the point is that Frazier doesn't waste his punches and when he gets inside his work rate is very high. Traditionally Frazier takes a few rounds find his opponent but if he hurts them early then his workrate will suddenly jump. Ellis was murdered after four rounds as was Jerry Quarry second time around and Bob Foster.

I agree on your point that Frazier doesnt really throw when he is coming in, despite the fact that he had a good jab when he wanted to use it ( see Quarry II ) I do disagree on your claim that Fraziers stamina 'went' rounds 11 - 15 still saw a terrific pace set by Joe and it was these rounds that won him the fight.

[ricardoparker93]

And about 5 years after Ali's.

He had far greater longevity than Frazier. Ali's physical gifts allowed him to succeed well after Frazier was finished.

[mcvey]

He had far greater longevity than Frazier. Ali's physical gifts allowed him to succeed well after Frazier was finished.

Everyone talks about how Frazier was in decline ,yet no one mentions that in his ONLY win over Ali,Ali had 18rds of boxing in 4 years .Add he was 2 years older than Frazier,Ali beat Frazier ,because after losing to him he maintained a steady schedule taking on ranked contenders and beating them,whereas Frazier fought 2 unranked journeymen.
Prime Ali beats Frazier and there is no trilogy.
Alis physical gifts had diminished by 74 his foot work was slower ,his work rate was less. Chuvalo commented how in their second fight Ali was not the same man, that he could not sustain his attack for as long.Ali continued at the top far longer than Frazier ,because he is the best heavyweight ever ,and Frazier barely makes the top 10.IMO.

[he grant]

Yes and no McVey ....

I have always written that Ali suffered from decline and inactivity due to the exile ... that being said his performance in the first Frazier fight might have been his all time bravest ..

By the second fight Ali was in much better shape than Joe. Yes Ali was two years older but Frazier's style guarantees a much shorter career and Joe was already blind in one eye plus fighting with his damaged arm. Their 1974 fight really ment little as it was a ref's fight. Perez let Ali hold on for his life all night, clinch after clinch, and that had a huge effect on how the fight played out. There is a reason their thord bout was so much closer once again. Diferent ref, different style. Far different fight ...

Back to Frazier / Holmes , it's funny as I am a huge Holmes fan but I actually think Larry is a little bit overated by many here. Larry did not have Ali's chin, Ali's stamina or Ali's strength. Holmes never had to fight a brutally paced 15 round bout excluding Norton and Norton did not keep Frazier's pace. Frazier was a very rare breed, his speed greatly underated by many as well as his defense. I think he would have given Larry all he could have handled. When Larry was Joe's sparring partner in 74 Joe manhandled him, breaking three of his ribs.

[mcvey]

Yes and no McVey ....

I have always written that Ali suffered from decline and inactivity due to the exile ... that being said his performance in the first Frazier fight might have been his all time bravest ..

By the second fight Ali was in much better shape than Joe. Yes Ali was two years older but Frazier's style guarantees a much shorter career and Joe was already blind in one eye plus fighting with his damaged arm. Their 1974 fight really ment little as it was a ref's fight. Perez let Ali hold on for his life all night, clinch after clinch, and that had a huge effect on how the fight played out. There is a reason their thord bout was so much closer once again. Diferent ref, different style. Far different fight ...

Back to Frazier / Holmes , it's funny as I am a huge Holmes fan but I actually think Larry is a little bit overated by many here. Larry did not have Ali's chin, Ali's stamina or Ali's strength. Holmes never had to fight a brutally paced 15 round bout excluding Norton and Norton did not keep Frazier's pace. Frazier was a very rare breed, his speed greatly underated by many as well as his defense. I think he would have could have given Larry all he could handle . When Larry was Joe's sparring partner in 74 Joe manhandled him, breaking three of his ribs.

Ali's bravest ? Quite possibly, Frazier had him out on his feet in the 11th ,only his balls kept him upright.But not his greatest.he needed more ring time before tackling Frazier,but as he was awaiting Court he did not have the luxury of time to prepare adequately,because there was real specualtion he might be imprisoned.The clock was ticking.

How about Larry's damaged arm against Norton?

I think he would have given Larry all he could handle ,but not beat him.

Sparring partners are there to make you look good ,not to beat you up.
Al Blue Lewis damaged Ali's ribs in sparring, but when they met for real ,though suffering from a heavy cold, Ali spanked Lewis.

Holmes could probably have beaten Ali in the last few years he was his sparring partner ,he has said so often enough,but that was not his function in training

,
Ali did not have his full stamina against Frazier in FOTC ,thats why he stayed on the ropes ,because he did not trust his legs, he was flat footed for the second half of the Bonavena fight and looked ordinary by his standards.
Frazier's defence is overated he finished many fights looking like a gargoyle,if he had met half the punchers Ali did he likely would have a few ko losses on his record.
Ali is on record as saying Frazier was easy to hit.

[MRBILL]

Holmes Sweet Holmes.

MR.BILL

[ricardoparker93]

Everyone talks about how Frazier was in decline ,yet no one mentions that in his ONLY win over Ali,Ali had 18rds of boxing in 4 years .Add he was 2 years older than Frazier,Ali beat Frazier ,because after losing to him he maintained a steady schedule taking on ranked contenders and beating them,whereas Frazier fought 2 unranked journeymen.
Prime Ali beats Frazier and there is no trilogy.
Alis physical gifts had diminished by 74 his foot work was slower ,his work rate was less. Chuvalo commented how in their second fight Ali was not the same man, that he could not sustain his attack for as long.Ali continued at the top far longer than Frazier ,because he is the best heavyweight ever ,and Frazier barely makes the top 10.IMO.

The Ali that fought Frazier in 71 was superior to the one that fought him in 74. Ali had just gone 15 rounds with Oscar Bonavena for christ sakes. Please dont use the layoff as an excuse. Anyway we're not talking about Muhammad Ali we're talking about Larry Holmes and Frazier at his best beats him. If we're talking about longevity it's a no contest but this is strictly H2H

[mcvey]

superior to the one that fought him in 74The Ali that fought Frazier in 71 was . Ali had just gone 15 rounds with Oscar Bonavena for christ sakes. Please dont use the layoff as an excuse. Anyway we're not talking about Muhammad Ali we're talking about Larry Holmes and Frazier at his best beats him. If we're talking about longevity it's a no contest but this is strictly H2H

I agree ,but he was NOT a prime Ali, he needed more ring rounds as his fight against Bonavena proved.
No excuse just a fact.
The Ali who beat Williams would not have been on the ropes for Frazier to pound on,he would have jabbed Frazier and used his legs to avoid return fire.

You think Frazier beats Holmes, I think the opposite. :good

[ricardoparker93]

I'd like to hear Sweet Pea's and Fleamans take on this.

[ricardoparker93]

I agree ,but he was NOT a prime Ali, he needed more ring rounds as his fight against Bonavena proved.
No excuse just a fact.
The Ali who beat Williams would not have been on the ropes for Frazier to pound on,he would have jabbed Frazier and used his legs to avoid return fire.

You think Frazier beats Holmes, I think the opposite. :good

:lol::lol::lol: Nothing wrong with a difference in opinion, but the first fight was pretty clear cut in Fraziers favour. I would favour Ali of 67 over Joe in 71 but I think that Ali could fight at a higher pace than Holmes and had a better chin, so i stick by my prediction.

As i'm sure you stick by yours :good

[MRBILL]

Higher pace? "Holmes vs. Shavers 1 & 2" and "Holmes vs. Norton" were pretty action-packed at a damn good rapid pace....... "Holmes-Cooney" and "Holmes-Spoon" were also well paced, too.....

MR.BILL:yep:happy:bbb

[Flea Man]

Holmes has the toughness, intelligence and powers of recovery to hang in there to earn a points win in an awesome fight.

Be interesting how people see Frazier vs Lennox.

[frankenfrank]

voted frazier TKO.
i just see holmes vs. norton. really not a good fight. holmes retreating , norton stalking getting caressed by the oh so famous holmes' jab. the only one landing anything significant in this fight is norton.
a disgrace. this holmes at least would have been stopped by marciano , tyson , frazier , tua would have of course KO1 him too.
not that frazier is tua , that's why it will be a late stoppage , maybe even past the 12th round , but more likely , inside 12.
this holmes is not any better than oquendo , ruiz , izon , i really don't know what people here find in him. no wonder he was outpointed by spinks.
he would have always lost to tyson , holyfield and yes , mccall too , always.
and to answer the question that i once did not know how to answer : despite of foreman's lack of talent , he'd have stopped holmes.

[he grant]

Aside from the Ali and Foreman bouts, when did Frazier look beaten up ?

[MAG1965]

Holmes was legit. a great and I think he had a little more power than Ali with his right hand and his jab was great. He was not the mover Ali was and as fluid as the pre 1970 Ali, but the later Ali and the Holmes of 1982 compare well. Since Ali post 1970 fought Frazier I think the Holmes of 1982 busts up Frazier's face and the fight is stopped about round 14. Holmes had a good right hand, and if he was knocked down he would get up.

[Mendoza]

Holmes was like Ali, except he also had an uppercut ( Which works vs Frazier's style ), and took less breaks on the ropes, which is where Frazier always did his best work.

Frazier had swelling issues, and did not have the best chin. His attack was predictable, and he only had one dangerous punch. While it was a great punch, Holmes was only stopped once in 75 fights, and it happened when Holmes was old and in-active vs. a prime Mike Tyson.

I think a smart, skilled and tough pro like Holmes would go to town on Frazier with a stinging jab, stiff right, and excellent combinations. I think Holmes would win via mid to late round TKO in a 15 round fight.

[mcvey]

Holmes was like Ali, except he also had an uppercut ( Which works vs Frazier's style ), and took less breaks on the ropes, which is where Frazier always did his best work.

Frazier had swelling issues, and did not have the best chin. His attack was predictable, and he only had one dangerous punch. While it was a great punch, Holmes was only stopped once in 75 fights, and it happened when Holmes was old and in-active vs. a prime Mike Tyson.

I think a smart, skilled and tough pro like Holmes would go to town on Frazier with a stinging jab, stiff right, and excellent combinations. I think Holmes would win via mid to late round TKO in a 15 round fight.

Holmes' uppercut was probably the best since Johnson's[:lol:].
Potent weapon ,against a croucher ,but also leaves you vulnerable to the left hook.

Holmes didn't really throw left hooks ,so he lacked the weapon that was in Ali's arsenal, he also put more steam on his jab .Larry was basically a "one two fighter ", left jab /rightcross,Ali had more variety, imo.
We agree that Holmes beats Frazier though.

[he grant]

Still waiting to confirm all this swelling he tended to have .. antone want to pont it out before March 71 ?

[PetethePrince]

How about from his trainer Eddie Futch?

[Cheese]

Joe's relentless attack would be too much for Holmes. If Frazier can slip Ali's jab, he could slip Holmes. Joe bobbing and weaving and punishing Holmes would take him out. Holmes never faced a pressure fighter like Frazier and I don't know how he could fight when Joe cuts off the ring and worked Larry. I definitely don't think Larry can withstand Joe's excellent body attacks. I think by round 7-8, Joe would knock him out.

[he grant]

Princess of talk without facts, which fight ?

[leverage]

Larry holmes never faced the kind of pressure that Joe Frazier would place on him. Holmes didn't hit hard enough to stop him from coming and it was impossible to discourage frazier. He seemed to enjoy getting hit and he only got stronger as a fight wore on.

Also besides the pressure, how would holmes handle the body punches? He would certainly be tested in a way that he's never been and his heart would also been tested.

Both men have been proven to have great heart but the question is who's heart would give out first. I'd say holmes would. He would become so exhausted that he would become completely stationary and this is where Frazier would get him. Frazier by tko in 14.

[PetethePrince]

Princess of talk without facts, which fight ?

"Frazier had a problem he always from fights swelled up. He never got cut but he always had a problem with swelling."

- Eddie Futch, Muhammad The Whole Story Documentary

Always here to educate you on the facts. :good

[he grant]

So you have no proof do you Princess ? What else is new. You are the joke of the Board. No one posts more with less knowledge about the sport.

[round15]

Tough fight to call prime for prime, H2H. I don't agree with those who posted in this thread who believe Holmes beats Frazier easily with Joe winning very few rounds.

Joe could and would catch Larry on the ropes and not waste punches like one poster said. Larry's not as quick on foot as Ali, especially backpedalling, and Joe is one of the best body punching heavyweights. Larry does have the potential to stop Joe on cuts or swelling if he's able to land his jab and right hand. Holmes probably takes the early rounds, but Joe warms up in the middle rounds and I'd bet on him wearing down Holmes to the body and stopping him late unless Joe absorbs too many shots that hampers his vision.

[Bill Butcher]

Ok maybe it's wrong to have two Frazier fantasy matchups running at the same time but this is one fight I have had on my mind for a while now. Can Frazier hunt down Holmes get past that jab and do a job on him? Or does the Easton Assasin control the fight with his jab and bottle him up when Joe gets inside.

Personally I think that Joe stops him late after losing the first 6.

It's 15 rounds 8 oz gloves

Make your picks! :good

Peak Frazier would be on Holmes from the middle rds on sucking the life out of Larry`s legs if Larry tries to box & move... if he fought flatfooted I think he takes even more punishment but still hangs in there giving & taking until the final bell.

Frazier UD15 Holmes

(12 rds is much closer no doubt)

[Bill Butcher]

Whoever voted Holmes by KO should have a rethink I think.

[leverage]

Tough fight to call prime for prime, H2H. I don't agree with those who posted in this thread who believe Holmes beats Frazier easily with Joe winning very few rounds.

Joe could and would catch Larry on the ropes and not waste punches like one poster said. Larry's not as quick on foot as Ali, especially backpedalling, and Joe is one of the best body punching heavyweights. Larry does have the potential to stop Joe on cuts or swelling if he's able to land his jab and right hand. Holmes probably takes the early rounds, but Joe warms up in the middle rounds and I'd bet on him wearing down Holmes to the body and stopping him late unless Joe absorbs too many shots that hampers his vision.
Excellent points, couldn't have said it better myself.

[Bummy Davis]

I did not get a chance to vote but I like Frazier by decision or late stop. Prime Frazier beat Ali and although it was the right hand Holmes was vulnerable to, Larry never fought a hooker like Joe and Joe was a converted southpaw. Frazier held up well vs Ali and neither Ali or Holmes could crack Norton to hurt him, Joe took a better punch than Norton and Joe could put the pressure on and make you work. Larry showed a tendency in both the amatuers and the pro's to get hit by shorter Power fighters. Nick Wells, not quite 5"11 KO'd him 2 times and Tyson did it. I dont see it being an early fight. I see a wear down battle of attrition with both men getting hit (more like the Norton/Holmes fight) but Frazier's stamina and pressure as well as more Pop on his hook than Norton. Holmes carried some weight in his right hand as well but not enough to push the button against Frazier. IMO Frazier tko14 in a great battle

[mcvey]

I did not get a chance to vote but I like Frazier by decision or late stop. Prime Frazier beat Ali and although it was the right hand Holmes was vulnerable to, Larry never fought a hooker like Joe and Joe was a converted southpaw. Frazier held up well vs Ali and neither Ali or Holmes could crack Norton to hurt him, Joe took a better punch than Norton and Joe could put the pressure on and make you work. Larry showed a tendency in both the amatuers and the pro's to get hit by shorter Power fighters. Nick Wells, not quite 5"11 KO'd him 2 times and Tyson did it. I dont see it being an early fight. I see a wear down battle of attrition with both men getting hit (more like the Norton/Holmes fight) but Frazier's stamina and pressure as well as more Pop on his hook than Norton. Holmes carried some weight in his right hand as well but not enough to push the button against Frazier. IMO Frazier tko14 in a great battle
.
A hooker like Joe ? Cooney? Frazier was more durable than Norton ? Debatable as Norton fought several really big punchers ,and Frazier ,only one ,who used him as a yo yo.

[MRBILL]

I just do not think Larry Holmes was beatable or kayoable when he was still south of age 35 in 1985.......... Prior to 1985, Larry Holmes proved his metal and worth by cleaning out a decent list of challengers...... Okay, so Larry Holmes never fought Greg Page, Michael Dokes or Pinklon Thomas.... I know that, however, them dudes didn't really surface as a serious threat until 1982 to 1985 when Larry Holmes was already aging at 32 to 35 yrs by that time and juncture....... And, according to Larry Holmes, Don King and Cable TV were only offering Larry Holmes normal championship base pay to risk his crown against them MUCH YOUNGER tigers....... Larry Holmes BALKED at Don King's 2.5 million dollar offer to fight Greg Page in 1983....... And to be honest, Michael Dokes and Larry Holmes never really ever got into serious negotiations once Dokes and Joey Curtis stole the WBA title from Mike Weaver in 1982.... Pinklon Thomas? He was good---for a brief moment in time..... But he rose fast and fell fast, too........ I do not knock Larry Holmes' reign or resume at all....... L.H. is great..........

MR.BILL

[JohnThomas1]

Whoever voted Holmes by KO should have a rethink I think.

A Holmes stoppage, tho not probable is very very possible.

[he grant]

I really do not see it ... I love Larry but I pick Joe ...

[JohnThomas1]

I really do not see it ... I love Larry but I pick Joe ...

Many will tell you Holmes hit harder than Ali ever did. It's also quite likely he was better than Ali when flat footed. He also had a sterling uppercut, see the Weaver finish.


As a fine man once said, everyone that fought Frazier had to fight. Holmes fought well.

If Ali had Frazier hurt Holmes could do the same. Holmes was a VERY good finisher.

Holmes stopping Frazier is IMO as likely as Frazier stopping Holmes.

[Bokaj]

Cooney had a great left hook. Holyfield's hook wasn't bad either. Maybe not on the level of Frazier, but Cooney's was at least as hard.

And Cooney landed a fair amount of those left hooks. Frazier would land more.

[Bill1234]

And Cooney landed a fair amount of those left hooks. Frazier would land more.

Cooney landed them to the body and they didn't really bother Larry all that much. There was one in at the ending bell in the 4th that Larry didn't like but he was fine the next round.

[Bokaj]

Cooney landed them to the body and they didn't really bother Larry all that much. There was one in at the ending bell in the 4th that Larry didn't like but he was fine the next round.

Still, though, Cooney's left hook gave Holmes some problems. It scored points and some probably was felt a bit as well. It's not like the Cooney fight is a testiment to how Holmes had no problems at all with left hooks. The body is where Frazier would land his left hook as well for the most part, and there would be plenty hard ones coming.

[Bummy Davis]

.
A hooker like Joe ? Cooney? Frazier was more durable than Norton ? Debatable as Norton fought several really big punchers ,and Frazier ,only one ,who used him as a yo yo.


Cooney did not put the pressure (SMOKE) on like Joe, nor did he have the late power (he only fought 8rds) and as I stated a short lefthooker like Frazier. Norton fought punchers but was stopped by most of them and was Jose Louis Garcia on par with even Bob Foster as a puncher not to mention Ellis,Ramos,Bonevena,or a prime Quarry. Like I said this fight would be close but I am leaning on Frazier being the stronger man at the finish line and the wear and tear taking effect on Holmes but it could likely be played out the other way but prime vs prime the Frazier of Ali 1 was hard to stop, was fit and had late relentless power. I think that Frazier would be too much for Holmes but Larry was also less vulnerable to the left hook than the right and Ali's kryptonite was the hook. Still I think this would be an attrition battle and I dont see Larry stopping Joe, so I think this one goes 15 or less and at Joe's chosen pace, which would be hectic indeed

[JohnThomas1]

Still, though, Cooney's left hook gave Holmes some problems. It scored points and some probably was felt a bit as well. It's not like the Cooney fight is a testiment to how Holmes had no problems with left hooks. The body is where Frazier would land his left hook as well for the most part, and there would be plenty hard ones coming.


Frazier also throws them more compact and from much closer than Cooney.

[Bummy Davis]

Frazier also throws them more compact and from much closer than Cooney.



By the way JT, nice avatar, excellent taste as always

[mcvey]

Cooney did not put the pressure (SMOKE) on like Joe, nor did he have the late power (he only fought 8rds) and as I stated a short lefthooker like Frazier. Norton fought punchers but was stopped by most of them and was Jose Louis Garcia on par with even Bob Foster as a puncher not to mention Ellis,Ramos,Bonevena,or a prime Quarry. Like I said this fight would be close but I am leaning on Frazier being the stronger man at the finish line and the wear and tear taking effect on Holmes but it could likely be played out the other way but prime vs prime the Frazier of Ali 1 was hard to stop, was fit and had late relentless power. I think that Frazier would be too much for Holmes but Larry was also less vulnerable to the left hook than the right and Ali's kryptonite was the hook. Still I think this would be an attrition battle and I dont see Larry stopping Joe, so I think this one goes 15 or less and at Joe's chosen pace, which would be hectic indeed

Cooney hit a lot harder than Frazier ever did .
I don't consider Ellis,Ramos,Bonavena ,Quarry . top flight punchers.
Even so Bonavena had Frazier down.
Whether Frazier had a better chin than Norton was never proved, imo as he only fought ONE big puncher and got annihlated.
Foster NEVER stopped a top heavyweight ,in fact he NEVER beat one.

I never said Larry would stop Frazier ,I said he would beat him.

[Bummy Davis]

Cooney hit a lot harder than Frazier ever did .
I don't consider Ellis,Ramos,Bonavena ,Quarry . top flight punchers.
Even so Bonavena had Frazier down.
Whether Frazier had a better chin than Norton was never proved, imo as he only fought ONE big puncher and got annihlated.
Foster NEVER stopped a top heavyweight ,in fact he NEVER beat one.

I never said Larry would stop Frazier ,I said he would beat him.


I never seen Cooney in with a live contender and prove his power. Power he had but I have no proff his hook was better than Frazier and he definately did not have late power...Frazier proved he did in the 11th and 15th rd vs Ali

[MRBILL]

Frazier was a good champion; Holmes was a great champion...

MR.BILL

Note:

I think Quarry was a heluva good puncher........ However, Quarry was in the same boat as Ernesto Shavers was...... Both normally KO'd their "C" and "B" opponents and lost to their "A" boys.... If you cannot KO the "A" dudes' your power has got to be questioned a bit.......

[JohnThomas1]

Frazier was a good champion; Holmes was a great champion...


:patsch

I think Quarry was a heluva good puncher........ However, Quarry was in the same boat as Ernesto Shavers was...... Both normally KO'd their "C" and "B" opponents and lost to their "A" boys.... If you cannot KO the "A" dudes' your power has got to be questioned a bit.......

Come on Bill. Shavers talent was the problem, not his power. Never mind most every opponent he fought said he was the hardest puncher they ever met. The effect one Shavers right hand had on Holmes, amd Ali for that matter is rather obvious.

[mcvey]

Frazier also throws them more compact and from much closer than Cooney.

I agree with you .I mentioned Cooney because the implication appeared to be, that Holmes never met a dangerous left hooker.
Frazier did not have as much steam on his as Cooney ,but,, he threw far more of them, and more compactly .

[MRBILL]

:patsch



Come on Bill. Shavers talent was the problem, not his power. Never mind most every opponent he fought said he was the hardest puncher they ever met. The effect one Shavers right hand had on Holmes, amd Ali for that matter is rather obvious.

Still, either hurting or dropping your "A" players with a single shot but failing to score the much needed KO doesn't convince me Earnie Shavers is the hardest whacker of all-time...... I know he lacked skill and finess, but while his power was there, it is also fabled to a degree..... IMO!!
:hat

I don't think Joe Frazier is truly an ATG champion.... He is an ATG fighter overall, but not as a champion....... His title fight resume is not all that incredible...... So he hammers "Mathis, Ellis, Quarry, Foster, Ali , Daniels and Ron Stander" from 1968 thru '1972.... Ali being the guy to go the full 15 rds..... Christ, Frazier has lived off his rep off of the 1971 'Ali' fight eversince he got the decision in New York..... The '73 KO loss to Foreman haunts Frazier's reign.....

I have Larry Holmes in my top-3 ATG list of ex-champs.... Frazier is somewhere down at # 10....... The truth.....
:admin:rasta

MR.BILL

[mcvey]

I never seen Cooney in with a live contender and prove his power. Power he had but I have no proff his hook was better than Frazier and he definately did not have late power...Frazier proved he did in the 11th and 15th rd vs Ali

That is arguable.
EG, Zora Folley and Jimmy Ellis dumped Bonavena,and Ali floored him 3 times for a ko.Frazier NEVER managed to have him off his feet in TWO fights.
I am sure Frazier hit harder than Ali,Ellis and Folley.
How the hell you can say Cooney " definately did not have late power" mystifies me ,as he only went past 8rds ONCE in his career,and that against the World Champion.:patsch

[JohnThomas1]

I have Larry Holmes in my top-3 ATG list of ex-champs.... Frazier is somewhere down at # 10....... The truth.....
:admin:rasta
MR.BILL

So Frazier is in your top 10 heavyweight champs ever but not great? :hey

[mcvey]

So Frazier is in your top 10 heavyweight champs ever but not great? :hey

That night in MSG he would have been a full nights work for anyone who ever laced on a pair of gloves .:good

[JohnThomas1]

Indeed, tho i still think Foreman bombs him.

[MRBILL]

So Frazier is in your top 10 heavyweight champs ever but not great? :hey


I'm just saying that he is not the upper elite of that list...... Frazier was a damn good champion for a few years...... I cannot rate Frazier ahead of "Ali, Holmes, Johnson, Lewis, Louis, Foreman, V. Klit, Holy & Tyson." But his name is up there with them dudes.......

I do think that prime Frazier chases both Marciano and Dempsey outta the ring in a time machine.....

The post 1960s heavies really hurt the standings of both "Dempsey and Marciano." Prior to 1960, I'd rate Dempsey and Marciano in the top-5 or 7 ATG champs.... Come post '60, they drop down between #'s 11 thru 12....

Only old-time greats like Jack Johnson and Joe Louis from pre-'60 still make my present top-10 list here today......
:deal:thumbsup:bbb

MR.BILL:rasta

[MRBILL]

Indeed, tho i still think Foreman bombs him.

Foreman was still an Ox in 1971, but he was also pretty goddamn green as well...... Frazier of '71 had a better chance at Foreman then..... However, if Foreman lands a crazy bomb on Frazier's jaw / face at any time, Foreman prolly bombs Frazier outta there.........
:hey

MR.BILL

[JohnThomas1]

Who exactly makes your list of "great champions" bearing in mind Frazier falls short mate?

[MRBILL]

Who exactly makes your list of "great champions" bearing in mind Frazier falls short mate?

Look above....:deal

MR.BILL:hat

[mcvey]

Indeed, tho i still think Foreman bombs him.

George ,Sonny.
Apart from them?
I would pick Dempsey,Louis,Lewis, Marciano, maybe Tyson,to stop him ,but not early.
What I meant was he approached greatness during the FOTC,
his desire , will, and readiness to accept punishment that night ,were allmost unparralled in the heavyweight division ,imo.

[JohnThomas1]

George ,Sonny.
Apart from them?


Gets very tough then.

[MRBILL]

George ,Sonny.
Apart from them?
I would pick Dempsey,Louis,Lewis, Marciano, maybe Tyson,to stop him ,but not early.
What I meant was he approached greatness during the FOTC,
his desire , will, and readiness to accept punishment that night ,were allmost unparralled in the heavyweight division ,imo.


McVey,

All them dudes' mentioned, except for, "Dempsey and Marciano" would certainly be real bad news for '71 Fraizer.......... Of course the others being peaked too......
:thumbsup

MR.BILL

[Bummy Davis]

That is arguable.
EG, Zora Folley and Jimmy Ellis dumped Bonavena,and Ali floored him 3 times for a ko.Frazier NEVER managed to have him off his feet in TWO fights.
I am sure Frazier hit harder than Ali,Ellis and Folley.
How the hell you can say Cooney " definately did not have late power" mystifies me ,as he only went past 8rds ONCE in his career,and that against the World Champion.:patsch

What makes you say Cooney had late power. His latest KO was an 8th rd. TKO over GG Maldonado (who was Ko'd earlier many times) the latest after that was a 6th rd Ko. Gerry's best win was over an older Jimmy Young and he stopped him on cuts (Young did not go down) In honestly I liked the way Gerry blew out Norton and Lyle but they were sitting targets. Frazier beat some young prime bangers. Quarry may have not been a killer puncher but I seen him KO Mac Foster and Hurt Ron Lyle Badly and put Ron in the survival mode but Quarry dominated him. As far as Bonavena Frazier fought him in like his 10th fight but the rematch was one-sided. I dont think anyone would question Frazier having late power, certainly not Ali or Buster Mathis

[mcvey]

What makes you say Cooney had late power. His latest KO was an 8th rd. TKO over GG Maldonado (who was Ko'd earlier many times) the latest after that was a 6th rd Ko. Gerry's best win was over an older Jimmy Young and he stopped him on cuts (Young did not go down) In honestly I liked the way Gerry blew out Norton and Lyle but they were sitting targets. Frazier beat some young prime bangers. Quarry may have not been a killer puncher but I seen him KO Mac Foster and Hurt Ron Lyle Badly and put Ron in the survival mode but Quarry dominated him. As far as Bonavena Frazier fought him in like his 10th fight but the rematch was one-sided. I dont think anyone would question Frazier having late power, certainly not Ali or Buster Mathis

I didn't say he had late power, I asked how the hell you could say he did not have ,given he only went over 8 rds once in his life ?:lol:
Frazier was an accumulation puncher,he wore you down .Mathis took multiple shots before he gassed because of poor conditioning and a torrent of body shots,over 11 rds.
It was Joe's 12 th fight when he fought Oscar,but I agree, he was matched tough that night.
Frazier didnt really meet bangers ,Durham matched him very shrewdly ,especially after the near disaster against Oscar.
I am a fan of Frazier's he had balls as big as a building, but I just fancy Holmes to decision him.:good

[MRBILL]

I think Cooney proved against Holmes that he had good power late into their epic '82 classic fight of the decade in Vegas........ Cooney hooked Holmes real good in the balls in round 9 in which he was penelized by Mills Lane..... I thought Cooney proved that at age 25 and at 225 pounds and in 100 degree heat, that he showed good power and stamina before being hammered in round 13 by the great Lawrence Holmes...... Cooney's "Greenery" is what caught up to him after round 10...... Not a lack of power or ability......... Holmes simply proved too good for Cooney in the championship rds........ Peace.....

MR.BILL

[JohnThomas1]

How do you see the Cooney that Holmes beat going against Frazier Bill?

[MRBILL]

How do you see the Cooney that Holmes beat going against Frazier Bill?

Well, of course Frazier is the more heart and soul fighter... But Cooney had huge height, reach and range on Frazier..... Plus, Cooney's hook was more powerful..... I don't know...... The '70 to '72 Frazier up against the 1980 to '82 Cooney is a hard pressed call for me to make...... Styles make fights...... I guess I'll pick Cooney by KO in a wicked fight..... No way "Frazier-Cooney" goes the distance....
:bbb

MR.BILL

[Bummy Davis]

I didn't say he had late power, I asked how the hell you could say he did not have ,given he only went over 8 rds once in his life ?:lol:
Frazier was an accumulation puncher,he wore you down .Mathis took multiple shots before he gassed because of poor conditioning and a torrent of body shots,over 11 rds.
It was Joe's 12 th fight when he fought Oscar,but I agree, he was matched tough that night.
Frazier didnt really meet bangers ,Durham matched him very shrewdly ,especially after the near disaster against Oscar.
I am a fan of Frazier's he had balls as big as a building, but I just fancy Holmes to decision him.:good

Who do you think was the more durable Cooney or Frazier?

[MRBILL]

Who do you think was the more durable Cooney or Frazier?

That too is tuff to call, since both Cooney and Frazier took hellacious shots from both "Ali & Holmes" who were merely good punchers at best, and yet, both Cooney and Frazier folded like lawn chairs when they ate the leather of "Foreman & Spinks."

BUT! Key factor....... Cooney's chin did look weak in 1990 at age 33 against Foreman...... But Foreman has a way of making guys' chins look weak.....

I'll grant Frazier the edge in toughness..........:hat

MR.BILL

[JohnThomas1]

Well, of course Frazier is the more heart and soul fighter... But Cooney had huge height, reach and range on Frazier..... Plus, Cooney's hook was more powerful..... I don't know...... The '70 to '72 Frazier up against the 1980 to '82 Cooney is a hard pressed call for me to make...... Styles make fights...... I guess I'll pick Cooney by KO in a wicked fight..... No way "Frazier-Cooney" goes the distance....
:bbb

MR.BILL

Ok, you take Cooney over Frazier.

How about 82 Cooney vs Marciano and Dempsey?

[KO KIDD]

Holmes could box on his toes and pump a tough jab 15 rounds great chin great strategy and consistent. Post exile Ali could out box him and he could not move like a pre exile Ali. Frazier has rock hard punching and a great chin but Holmes took Norton Shavers Weavers Witherspoons Holyfields Mccals Cooneys punches why not Frazier

[MRBILL]

Ok, you take Cooney over Frazier.

How about 82 Cooney vs Marciano and Dempsey?

Again, styles make fights.......... "Marci and Demps" are without a doubt the GREATER and more HISTORICAL fighters, but an '82 Cooney was unbeaten and fucking huge with power in that left-hook....... If Cooney gets off with hooks very early on, Cooney wins...... If Cooney fails to land bombs within the first 4 rds, Cooney falls apart and gets broken down....

Note:

Nobody at heavyweight can withstand Cooney's hook to the head and liver from 1980 to 1982......... I'm talking about early on in the fight when Cooney is fresh as a daisy...... After 4 rds, it gets tricky......

The 25 year old and 225 pound Cooney who fought Holmes in 1982 surely was better trained and coached than Jesse Willard was aginst Dempsey back in 1919.....

Willard was in-shape against Johnson at 230 pounds in 1915.......... Willard was 245 and flabby for Dempsey in '19.........

MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

I was never a true fan of Cooney boy back in the early 80s.... I smelled a hype / con going on there......... But Cooney was big and powerful without a doubt........ Cooney lacked dedication in the long run, but he had ability and some talent to box / fight....... He had that "Punchers" chance when he was young and unbeaten prior to 1983......

MR.BILL:bbb

[mcvey]

Who do you think was the more durable Cooney or Frazier?

Frazier

[JohnThomas1]

Again, styles make fights.......... "Marci and Demps" are without a doubt the GREATER and more HISTORICAL fighters, but an '82 Cooney was unbeaten and fucking huge with power in that left-hook....... If Cooney gets off with hooks very early on, Cooney wins...... If Cooney fails to land bombs within the first 4 rds, Cooney falls apart and gets broken down....

Note:

Nobody at heavyweight can withstand Cooney's hook to the head and liver from 1980 to 1982......... I'm talking about early on in the fight when Cooney is fresh as a daisy...... After 4 rds, it gets tricky......

The 25 year old and 225 pound Cooney who fought Holmes in 1982 surely was better trained and coached than Jesse Willard was aginst Dempsey back in 1919.....

Willard was in-shape against Johnson at 230 pounds in 1915.......... Willard was 245 and flabby for Dempsey in '19.........

MR.BILL

Ok, so you got Cooney over Frazier, and even money vs Marciano and Dempsey.

[MRBILL]

Ok, so you got Cooney over Frazier, and even money vs Marciano and Dempsey.

Not really...... I'm not sure '82 Cooney could beat any of them three dudes....... I'm just saying Cooney has a sluggers chance during the first 4 rds against them........ Plus, Cooney's height of 6' 6" and weight of a solid 225 pounds gets me thinking.....

I know Cooney was wasted by Spinks in 1987, but Cooney was rusty and no longer serious about fighting by that point, so I don't like to take that fight into account here....

Cooney of 1982 would've hammered the light-heavyweight champion Michael Spinks of 1982 had they met in the ring...... Spinks was not physically prepared to be a heavyweight at that time...... Timing is everything there..........

MR.BILL:bbb

[Bummy Davis]

Not really...... I'm not sure '82 Cooney could beat any of them three dudes....... I'm just saying Cooney has a sluggers chance during the first 4 rds against them........ Plus, Cooney's height of 6' 6" and weight of a solid 225 pounds gets me thinking.....

I know Cooney was wasted by Spinks in 1987, but Cooney was rusty and no longer serious about fighting by that point, so I don't like to take that fight into account here....

Cooney of 1982 would've hammered the light-heavyweight champion Michael Spinks of 1982 had they met in the ring...... Spinks was not physically prepared to be a heavyweight at that time...... Timing is everything there..........

MR.BILL:bbb



I saw a 6"6 Cooney as a middleweight and was impressed then I saw him as a light heavyweight get stopped by Johnny Davis TKO for the NY golden glove title. I came away thinking this kid is fragile. Cooney had a hell of a hook to head and body but did not have the frame to weather the storm and it came out in the pro's.

[red cobra]

I saw a 6"6 Cooney as a middleweight and was impressed then I saw him as a light heavyweight get stopped by Johnny Davis TKO for the NY golden glove title. I came away thinking this kid is fragile. Cooney had a hell of a hook to head and body but did not have the frame to weather the storm and it came out in the pro's.
Amen bummy!!:good Cooney's fragility colors every assessment I make of him, and figures in every hypothetical matchup that involves him, unless the opposing fighter is either punchless/chinny himself. Getting battered and ko'ed so emphatically by Michael Spinks was unforgivable...great left hook, but no chin or ruggedness at all!! Guys like Gerrie Coetzee would have ko'ed him, and against Tommy Morrison, it would have been a matter of who landed first..either man would have had a chance.

[red cobra]

Don't even think of what Joe Frazier would have done to Cooney.

[he grant]

"We'll you know history proves that Frazier had a weak chin." LOL. You never know, Cooney might have taken him out early if he sneezed on him just right .... LOL ...

Back on Earth. Cooney was always fragile. His handlers had a choice, make money with him or make him a fighter and they choose the money route, plain and simple. I do not know if Cooney's hook was more powerful than Frazier's but I do know Frazier's was much , much better. It was faster, he threw it from more angles (head and body) and he had late round power.

The famous shot is the Lyle body shot and of course the Norton bouts. No doubt Gerrfy was a huge hitter but Frazier was such a supeior fighter I would not say you can compare them as left hookers in any match up.

[MRBILL]

Johnny and Eddie Davis were good light-heavies in the early to mid-80s............... I have Eddie Davis' title challenge to Spinks on tape....... Davis bobbed and weaved while pressing Spinks hard, but Spinks had that jab and jinx going on.... It was a close fight to the max..... Spinks got the nod, but many at ringside thought Davis was butt-shafted....

MR.BILL

[PetethePrince]

Who said Frazier had a weak chin?

[MRBILL]

I gotta assume that Cooney at well over 6' + as a middleweight amateur of the 70s had to be lean and gaunt with little to no strength at all........ What was Cooney's diet as an amateur---Bread and Water???

MR.BILL

[he grant]

White bread and water ...

[Bummy Davis]

I gotta assume that Cooney at well over 6' + as a middleweight amateur of the 70s had to be lean and gaunt with little to no strength at all........ What was Cooney's diet as an amateur---Bread and Water???

MR.BILL


He had meat on his shoulders beleive it or not, he did not really look frail as a middleweight just young and lean and I saw him stop a 5-0 guy in the finals a 3KD KO in the 1st, impressive. When Davis fought him at 175,Cooney looked frail, he got stopped, wobbled and was getting hit (something like the Holmes stop as I recall)

I also saw a 6"5 Riddick Bowe as a Lightheavy win the NY golden Gloves, he looked good quicker and some good pop in the right hand. I made note but did not like his look as a Super-Heavy,he got slow and hit often

[he grant]

The footage your are referring to of Cooney in the GG's exists ... I've seen it and used it ... he was pretty thin but his arms and shoulders looked similar to what they did as a pro .. Cooney was never a strong heavyweight ... always thin .. thin legs, knock knees .. a long, lanky guy ...

[Bummy Davis]

The footage your are referring to of Cooney in the GG's exists ... I've seen it and used it ... he was pretty thin but his arms and shoulders looked similar to what they did as a pro .. Cooney was never a strong heavyweight ... always thin .. thin legs, knock knees .. a long, lanky guy ...


True

[ricardoparker93]

I think Mcvey is seriously underrating Joe Frazier...

[Mendoza]

Cooney hit a lot harder than Frazier ever did .
I don't consider Ellis,Ramos,Bonavena ,Quarry . top flight punchers.
Even so Bonavena had Frazier down.
Whether Frazier had a better chin than Norton was never proved, imo as he only fought ONE big puncher and got annihlated.
Foster NEVER stopped a top heavyweight ,in fact he NEVER beat one.

I never said Larry would stop Frazier ,I said he would beat him.

I think Larry would stop Frazier late. Here is something to ponder. Norton catches plenty of heat for having a shaky chin vs punchers. Yes--He did. So how come Ali hurt Frazier far more than he hurt Norton?

Kinda of makes you wonder about Frazier over rated defense, and lack of punch resistance vs solid type of hitters who had good accuracy.

[MRBILL]

I think Larry would stop Frazier late. Here is something to ponder. Norton catches plenty of heat for having a shaky chin vs punchers. Yes--He did. So how come Ali hurt Frazier far more than he hurt Norton?

Kinda of makes you wonder about Frazier over rated defense, and lack of punch resistance vs solid type of hitters who had good accuracy.

I am a 'Holmes' jockstrap sniffer.......... Been so since '78......... He was great......

MR.BILL:deal:bbb:thumbsup:hat

[Bummy Davis]

I think Larry would stop Frazier late. Here is something to ponder. Norton catches plenty of heat for having a shaky chin vs punchers. Yes--He did. So how come Ali hurt Frazier far more than he hurt Norton?

Kinda of makes you wonder about Frazier over rated defense, and lack of punch resistance vs solid type of hitters who had good accuracy.


Frazier of Ali 1 was the last of a prime Joe Frazier and he went down hill after that fight, even in Stander and Daniels you could see it. In Ali 1 it was Frazier that did the hurting of Ali ( a very prime or close to prime Ali)

Norton was a young guy with the right style vs Ali, both Ali and joe started to slide a bit after each war but Frazier more so. Even with that in mind Frazier made the other 2 fights with Ali more of life and death, ebb and flow than Norton did