RJJ Vastly Underrated Competition?

[PowerPuncher]

People are pretty hard on RJJs comp and say he didn't fight the top fighters. Is this unfair lets look

Toney - ATG

BHOPs - ATG

McCallum - ATG

Virgil Hill - ATG? Top LHW stopped in 4 by RJJ, went 12 with Darius Michouski (sp)

Tarver (won the first) - allot of wins over contenders cleaning out 175 before he fought RJJ first time

Ruiz - top5 HW of the 00s

Montel Griffin - undefeated excellent fighter beat in 1 by RJJ

Reggie Johnson - 2 weight champ, went to an SD with Toney - easily dominated

Gonzalez - beat Darius Michauseski (sp)

Hall - beat comprehensively, arguably robbed against Darius Michauski (sp)

Harding - RJJ stops the man fresh from a win over Tarver

Woods - current champ with wins over Glen Johnson, Gonzalez, Hoye

Del Valle - WBA champ, easily beaten

Otis GRant - WBO Middleweight champ in his prime dominated and stopped

Malinga - stopped in 6. Beat Nigel Benn once (many say he was robbed in the first fight), went to an SD against Chris Eubank beat a few champs, robbed a few times

Tate - ko'd in 2, went 12 with ATG puncher Julian Jackson

Paziana - 2 weight champ, fresh off wins over an old duran, ko'd in 6 easily

Thornton - ko'd in 3, took Toney and Eubank 12 (both punchers).

Brannon - undefeated contender, excellent pressure fighter (video on this)

Sosa - beat 2 champion - Glen Johnson and 2 weight champ Charles Williams

People say RJJ would not be able to handle pressure fighters. I urge everyone to watch the Brannon fight:

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Who didn't he fight:

Darius - did make an offer to Darius. Neither fighter wanted to fight abroad. RJJ had been robbed in the olympics.

Benn - should have happened after McCellan. Benn said he wanted the fight, RJJ didnt want to work with Don King to make the fight. Benn admitted he would have probably lost (especially after he was shot after McCellan)

Eubank - RJJ wanted him when he didnt have a title and was willing to go to England. Eubank wanted the fight only after he lost.

McCellan - was supposedly set to go if McCellan beat Benn

Collins - Collins wanted a fortune for this 1.

Nunn - should have happened, RJJ probably avoided the fight but was talking about going to fight Buster Douglas instead. Nunn went on to lose to Rochiagani

Calazage - never wanted to leave home

Jirov - could have happened, wasn't in RJJs division, RJJ went after Ruiz instead.

[Ted Spoon]

It's more a case of Jones' conquests not being fully appreciated because of how he strolled through his career - that frustrates fans, Ted Spoon knows.

If Jones struggled against Toney, then we would focus on the tough nature of the fight rather than Toney's weight situation.

[McGrain]

I think you've shown that Jones, overall, fought a better level of competition than he is generally given credit for.

Not to run him down before he's got started, but if Pavlik had been around then and had fought Jones people would probably be saying that Pavlik wasn't a very good fighter (whereas the way things have landed there are threads in general comparing him to Jones, Hagler and Ali).

Jones' opposition is often underated by virtue of the fact that Jones completely outclasses these guys.

[dmt]

He had good competition, however, you have to consider McCallum was 40 years old, and had been slowing down for a long time. The Toney win was great though

[JohnThomas1]

I think you've shown that Jones, overall, fought a better level of competition than he is generally given credit for.

Not to run him down before he's got started, but if Pavlik had been around then and had fought Jones people would probably be saying that Pavlik wasn't a very good fighter (whereas the way things have landed there are threads in general comparing him to Jones, Hagler and Ali).

Jones' opposition is often underated by virtue of the fact that Jones completely outclasses these guys.

Some good stuff.

[PowerPuncher]

He had good competition, however, you have to consider McCallum was 40 years old, and had been slowing down for a long time. The Toney win was great though

Yes he was but rarely when Greb, Moore etc are discussed are the state or prime of their competition brought up. Its so long ago people forget who was prime and who wasn't

Its disapointing there werent more superfights but jones losing to anyone 168-175 seems very unlikely. IE a BHOPs rematch would have been a formality and BHOPs still isnt keen on the rematch today despite Roy being past it. Benn says he would have lost but wanted the payday. Otke was very average and no better than Reggie Johnson for example.

I think if Benn, Eubank, Jirov, Calazage, Darius had been big American names, comanded PPV audiences and were American the fights would have certainly happened.

[gutto]

quality post i am a big rjj fan for me one of the best ever imo . I am not sure why some fighters dont get the props they deserve untill they have retired for many years. I think rjj made it look to easy just to good for his own good i guess:thumbsup

[janitor]

There is a tendency to play down Jonses acomplishments because he took a few soft touches but there is some real gold dust in there.

John Ruiz
The last former middleweight champion to hold any sort of clain to the heavyweight title was Bob Fitzsimmons in the 1800s. whatever you think of Ruiz the historical importance of this should not be under rated.

James Toney
A pound for pound great across multiple weight divisions totaly dominated.

How many times through history has a great fighter been so completely outclassed?

Not many.

In adition to this the value of a fighters best wins can continue to gain interest long after he retires as his former victims increase their own acomplishments.

Clinton Woods has already picked up a belt and might beat other top fighters. Bernard Hopkins is not out of the picture yet and neither is Tarver. If these three fight in whatever combination it is going to increase sombodys standing.

[Drew101]

Personally, I think fighters like Eric Harding, Monetell Griffin, Clinton Woods, and, to a lesser extant, Julio Gonzalez and Derrick Harmon would have been good quality contenders in just about any era. RJJ's era at LH wasn't great, but Powerpuncher's right...it's better than some people seem to think.

[TBooze]

Jones blew it and blew it big...

The man had as much talent as Robinson and squandered 50-60% of it. I am sure my premature greying comes from all the stress I got from friends as I desperatly tried to defend Jones and tell everyone that would listen that in the end Jones would come to Britain + Europe and fight the names we all wanted him to, because he was that good, he did not need to worry about what the judges thought...

I should not of bothered, I still cannot believe that a man with all that talent had a prime year that consisted of beating Byrd, Pazienza and Thornton; when Benn and Eubank in 1995 were begging for a match; matches Jones at his best could of had and won on the same night, he was potentially that good.:(

[achillesthegreat]

He beat a top 5 160, a top 5 168, he is top 10 at 175 and he jumped 190 to become a titlist at heavyweight.

What else needs to be said.

[Mega Lamps]

Vastly overrated fighter.

[TBooze]

He beat a top 5 160, a top 5 168, he is top 10 at 175 and he jumped 190 to become a titlist at heavyweight.

What else needs to be said.

Stan Harrington beat the generally considered finest fighter ever, then beat him again to prove it was not a fluke...

But that does not mean Hartrington was the best fighter ever, far from it.

Jones was that good, the bar was raised for him, and he did not clear it; and what is even worse, he did not even try! That is why Jones will probably never get any benefit of doubt, when he gets rated. He fought good opposition for an excellent fighter, but Jones was meant to be more than excellent, he was meant to be an all-time top three great, and indeed he could of been if he had tried.

[PowerPuncher]

John Ruiz
The last former middleweight champion to hold any sort of clain to the heavyweight title was Bob Fitzsimmons in the 1800s. whatever you think of Ruiz the historical importance of this should not be under rated. .

This doesn't sit completely happilly with me despite being a RJJ fan. Despite being sort of true, Ruiz was only a belt holder.

It also discounts other former middleweights like Patterson, Charles and maybe there were a few others that possibly would have held belts at 160 and HW

[achillesthegreat]

Stan Harrington beat the generally considered finest fighter ever, then beat him again to prove it was not a fluke...

But that does not mean Hartrington was the best fighter ever, far from it.

Jones was that good, the bar was raised for him, and he did not clear it; and what is even worse, he did not even try! That is why Jones will probably never get any benefit of doubt, when he gets rated. He fought good opposition for an excellent fighter, but Jones was meant to be more than excellent, he was meant to be an all-time top three great, and indeed he could of been if he had tried.
The bar set for Jones was to be the best ever - he failed. However he ended up one of the best and a great fighter.

Jones beat a top 5 160 and never lost at the weight.
He beat a top 5 168 and never lost at the weight.
He did everything I said at 175 and heavy and never really lost.

Then suddenly when he hit 36 or so after having boxed since he was 8 or something he loses and his record begins to look like Robinson, Charles, Leonard etc However it appears the bar is set differently.

Jones was meant to be the best ever, he failed. He simply never had that drive. You need to yearn for it. You need to crave that recognition - Jones didn't. This doesn't mean he won't get his rightful ranking as a great fighter.

[TBooze]

The bar set for Jones was to be the best ever - he failed. However he ended up one of the best and a great fighter.

Jones beat a top 5 160 and never lost at the weight.
He beat a top 5 168 and never lost at the weight.
He did everything I said at 175 and heavy and never really lost.

Then suddenly when he hit 36 or so after having boxed since he was 8 or something he loses and his record begins to look like Robinson, Charles, Leonard etc However it appears the bar is set differently.

Jones was meant to be the best ever, he failed. He simply never had that drive. You need to yearn for it. You need to crave that recognition - Jones didn't. This doesn't mean he won't get his rightful ranking as a great fighter.

I almost agree with that 100%... Griffin beat him legit; but Jones did redeem himself and how in the rematch.