"The Greatest" H2H

[Kalasinn]

When comes to Peak H2H Heavyweight fantasy fight talk, Ali is most often the favoured fighter above all. For good reason too, he had the best hand speed and foot speed, a true warriors heart, an iron chin, godlike reflexes, head movement and defense, a mammoth amount of stamina, as well as pinpoint accuracy and masterful skill with legendary ring intelligence...one could go on.

This topic concerns a discussion of which boxers have the most realistic chances in their respective peaks against a 1966-67 Ali. Posts should focus upon scenarios where other boxers can beat him, but also where Ali can defeat them. In the poll I tried to include the most frequently considered H2H opponents to make for a possibly well matched fight, I apologise if the selection doesn't cater for all.

[PetethePrince]

Tyson or Frazier. I think they stand out over the others big time. Dempsey should've made the poll...

[Kalasinn]

Tyson or Frazier. I think they stand out over the others big time. Dempsey should've made the poll...
God damn it, I thought about including Dempsey.
I knew I was bound to spoil the poll, anyway at least he can still be discussed.

[McGrain]

They all have a chance. I would pick Frazier.

[Kalasinn]

Personally I select Tyson, with Frazier as a razor-close second.

[Flea Man]

Tyson and Frazier. Obvious choices. Don't think Dempsey would beat Ali.

Joe Louis would win one in a series, probably the 2nd.

I'd be interested on hearing thoughts on Ali vs Evander though I'd say Ali by decision in a hard-fought, exciting contest.

I've always thought Holmes would stand the best chance in a 'boxing match' so to speak.

[Vanboxingfan]

I think it's two styles. One being the Tyson, Frazier style of getting low and inside, and the other being the Holmes, Lewis style of using fundamental boxing skills and in Lewis' case reach and power advantages.

Holmes might have an edge in the jab department, if so he too, could potentially outbox Ali.

[Flea Man]

Good post VanBoxingFan.

[CF Gauss]

I voted for Frazier since he actually beat Ali in 1971.


I think Joe Louis would also have a very good chance.


Ali never was able to beat Ken Norton decisively, so he should be mentioned too.



I don't think Tyson would. Ali is smart enough to survive the first few rounds, and I don't think Tyson has the relentessness, toughness, heart, and determination to to win a prolonged battle.




Having said all that, I find it confusing that Ali is considered so untouchable in fantasty head-to-heads when he actually lost in real life to Frazier and Norton.

I think Ali might win with greater probability than almost any other fighter, but beating him is far from impossible. Any fighter presents a threat to another fighter, to paraphrase Angelo Dundee.

[Sweet Pea]

Outside of Frazier, probably Holmes. Tyson matches up well with him stylistically, but I think the mental game and intangibles Ali brought to the table win him that one. Holmes vs Ali might be close to 50/50 in my book.

[Longhhorn71]

Ali would not fight Louis on the ropes.

Louis handspeed almost as fast as Ali's.

Louis punches harder than Ali.

Louis breaks ribs with body shots.

Ali "rope-a-doping" leads to Ali getting KTFO.

[Flea Man]

Ali would not fight Louis on the ropes.

Louis handspeed almost as fast as Ali's.

Louis punches harder than Ali.

Louis breaks ribs with body shots.

Ali "rope-a-doping" leads to Ali getting KTFO.

pointless post. Ali would use his foot speed and movement to stay out of punching range. Prime Ali wouldn't have needed to rope a dope, to be fair your post is shit I don't even know why I'm responding to it other than you tell you to go back to the general.

[My2Sense]

I think Lennox would pose big (no pun intended) problems for Ali, because of his size and reach combined with his power and skill. He'd force Ali to fight more aggressively than is customary for him and I don't know how much Ali's power would trouble him.

A '71 Frazier would always be a problem for Ali, win or lose.

Out of the fighters listed, Tyson and Marciano would probably pose the least stylistic trouble for him.

[McGrain]

Out of the fighters listed, Tyson and Marciano would probably pose the least stylistic trouble for him.

Agree.

[Boxed Ears]

I'm the only one in ten to vote for Holmes? Seriously?

[MrPook]

Frazier because he did.

[ripcity]

1. Lennox Lewis. Lewis has the size and ability to out box Ali over 12 or 15 rounds as well as the power to stop him. I don't think Ali has the stoping power to stop Lewis.
2. Mike Tyson I considred ranking Tyson #1 but I think Lewis edges him out. Watch Ali/Patterson 1. Patterson is able to make contact with Ali. If Patterson who was 30 and past his best could make contact with a prime Ali than Tyson could make contact with impact with Ali. Ali is made for Tyson. Tyson is not an inside boxer despite his lacl of highth. He is at his best when he has space to work with. Ali's dancing around gives him that space. Tyson by t/ko within 8 rounds.
3. Joe Louis. Louis will have some early trubble with Ali annd if he can't knock him out or even down he might not beat him. Louis may not be as fast as Ali but he is as tecnacaly perfect as you can get. He knows how to get him self in to pistion to land big shots. This fight will eather be a decision win for Ali or a late t/ko win for Louis.
4. Joe Frazier. I think this fight plays out much like the real Ali/Frazier 1 did. I think it is a pick'em fight. Fraizer's dislike of Ali is going to be a factor. I also think Frazier is going to need to knock doown or knock out Ali to get the win as well. This is going to be close and I can see a split decision in this one.
5. Evander Holyfield. I think Ali wins this match up. I think it is going to be one of those fights where the fight is closer than the scores indacate. I can see Ali winning almost every round but Holyfield will make him work for those rounds. I don't see any knockdowns or knockouts in this match up.
6. Rocky Marciano. Marciano always has a punchers chance but I Ali is going to keep his distance and out box him to a clear decision victory.

[PetethePrince]

Out of the fighters listed, Tyson and Marciano would probably pose the least stylistic trouble for him.

I think it's the opposite.

I can easily see Ali out-box Holmes/Lewis. He's basically more athletic and better than both of them. Sure, he's not as technical. But his speed, reflexes, chin, would be all than more enough. Lewis has the power to make things interesting, but I just feel Ali can out-score him. I favor Ali over Holmes and Lewis, but I give Lewis more of a chance.

I'm talking Ali at his best. Ali with speed, and unbelievable reflexes, timing, and accuracy.

Tyson, on the other hand posses a serious risk. And Marciano is a non-stop machine.

If Mercer jab gave Lennox issues...

And holmes struggled more than he should have with some of the guys in front of him.

[Jersey Joe]

Having said all that, I find it confusing that Ali is considered so untouchable in fantasty head-to-heads when he actually lost in real life to Frazier and Norton.



Part of the reason is that he lost these fights after spending several years of his prime accumulating ring rust. The post-ban Ali wasn't on the same level as the younger version for reflexes and hand speed. Frazier would not have caught the young Ali as much as he did in FOTC.

The Ali that lost to Frazier and Norton is catchable and beatable by guys like Frazier, prime Tyson (Tyson from the Douglas fight on would have almost 0% chance), and especially Joe Louis. The young Ali is likely to be as hard to hit as he was against Liston.

IMO the pre-ban Ali would perform a bit like Roy Jones Jr did against Hopkins or Toney - clearly dominating great fighters with vastly superior speed, reflexes, and footwork, never looking close to losing. The difference is that Ali has one of the best ever chins too so he would be even harder to beat H2H than prime RJJ was.

[Jersey Joe]

I think it's the opposite.

I can easily see Ali out-box Holmes/Lewis. He's basically more athletic and better than both of them. Sure, he's not as technical. But his speed, reflexes, chin, would be all than more enough. Lewis has the power to make things interesting, but I just feel Ali can out-score him. I favor Ali over Holmes and Lewis, but I give Lewis more of a chance.

I'm talking Ali at his best. Ali with speed, and unbelievable reflexes, timing, and accuracy.

Tyson, on the other hand posses a serious risk. And Marciano is a non-stop machine.

If Mercer jab gave Lennox issues...

And holmes struggled more than he should have with some of the guys in front of him.

The problem for guys like Tyson and Marciano is that prime Ali is not only the most elusive heavyweight ever (both footwork and head movement), he also has arguably the best ever chin and recuperative abilities. They are just not going to be able to hunt him down like they did vs more normal opposition, and even on the rare occasions they do, it's going to be hard as hell to knock him out.

So, they have to win a points decision over 12-15 rounds - but with a reach and speed disadvantage and Ali's jab pistoning into their face for most of the fight, good luck with that.

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano does not need to knock Ali out to beat him, he can just outwork him like he did vs Charles or Fraizer did in the first fight.

[Longhhorn71]

pointless post. Ali would use his foot speed and movement to stay out of punching range. Prime Ali wouldn't have needed to rope a dope, to be fair your post is shit I don't even know why I'm responding to it other than you tell you to go back to the general.

Old, slow George Chuvalo took Ali to the ropes many times in their fight and had Ali pissing blood afterwards.

Image what Joe Louis would have done to a stationary target like that.

Ali would have been contacting the American Kidney Foundation applying for his double transplant afterwards.
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:good

[ironchamp]

Personally I select Tyson, with Frazier as a razor-close second.

I'd pick Tyson to beat Ali as well but I don't think his style specifically would cause stylistic trouble for Ali.

I'd rather pick someone who I feel would have a stylistic advantage over Ali and I think Lennox Lewis or Larry Holmes would give Ali fits.

With Ali; Frazier was a 300 pound rock that he had to carry across a large room in a short period of time.

Norton was more like calculating the sharpe ratio of a short biased Hedge Fund.

Both were challenges but in different ways.

I tend to think that Lewis falls deeply in the "Norton" category and as a result I would be more comfortable favoring him over Ali than I would Tyson, Frazier or Dempsey for that matter.

[leverage]

Ali would not fight Louis on the ropes.

Louis handspeed almost as fast as Ali's.

Louis punches harder than Ali.

Louis breaks ribs with body shots.

Ali "rope-a-doping" leads to Ali getting KTFO.
No way, louis too slow afoot to catch Ali. It would be a long, fustrating night for the "brown bpmber" as he frequently misses and takes many combinations before being stopped in 9.

[PetethePrince]

The problem for guys like Tyson and Marciano is that prime Ali is not only the most elusive heavyweight ever (both footwork and head movement), he also has arguably the best ever chin and recuperative abilities. They are just not going to be able to hunt him down like they did vs more normal opposition, and even on the rare occasions they do, it's going to be hard as hell to knock him out.

So, they have to win a points decision over 12-15 rounds - but with a reach and speed disadvantage and Ali's jab pistoning into their face for most of the fight, good luck with that.

That's why I think you can't out-box. For the reasons you mentioned. That foot-work speed, chin, stamina, etc. Yes, it's nearly unfeasible to knock him out. But to out-tough, to fight him in a fight under your terms is the way to go. Mauling, brawling, and pressure is that key. Out-boxing him isn't the way to go. Yes, Larry has a tad more power and a better left jab and Lennox has more power. But I see Lennox not being fast enough on foot or hand, and Larry having trouble controlling range against a man who's reflexes and foot-speed are phenomenal.

Both are hard to do, which is why Ali is The Greatest.

Like Joe Louis. Forget about "out-boxing this kid." You got brawl him. Get him on the ropes, and trap him. Louis idea was a blueprint of Frazier's FOTC fight.

I definitely prefer Tyson/Frazier/Marciano against Ali if these three had 10 fights with Ali (combined) then having the Holmes/Lewis/Wlad types.

Terrel, Bugner, and other fights showed me this. Chuvalo & Frazier fights showed me my perspective.

Louis might be the dark horse.

[TheGreatA]

Interestingly Ali said his toughest opponent would have been Rocky Marciano. He also said that the likes of Dempsey/Marciano/Frazier were his worst match-up.

[Maxmomer]

God damn it, I thought about including Dempsey.
I knew I was bound to spoil the poll, anyway at least he can still be discussed.

You wrecked it. You wrecked your own poll... Shameful.

[ripcity]

1. Lennox Lewis. Lewis has the size and ability to out box Ali over 12 or 15 rounds as well as the power to stop him. I don't think Ali has the stoping power to stop Lewis.
2. Mike Tyson I considred ranking Tyson #1 but I think Lewis edges him out. Watch Ali/Patterson 1. Patterson is able to make contact with Ali. If Patterson who was 30 and past his best could make contact with a prime Ali than Tyson could make contact with impact with Ali. Ali is made for Tyson. Tyson is not an inside boxer despite his lacl of highth. He is at his best when he has space to work with. Ali's dancing around gives him that space. Tyson by t/ko within 8 rounds.
3. Joe Louis. Louis will have some early trubble with Ali annd if he can't knock him out or even down he might not beat him. Louis may not be as fast as Ali but he is as tecnacaly perfect as you can get. He knows how to get him self in to pistion to land big shots. This fight will eather be a decision win for Ali or a late t/ko win for Louis.
4. Joe Frazier. I think this fight plays out much like the real Ali/Frazier 1 did. I think it is a pick'em fight. Fraizer's dislike of Ali is going to be a factor. I also think Frazier is going to need to knock doown or knock out Ali to get the win as well. This is going to be close and I can see a split decision in this one.
5. Evander Holyfield. I think Ali wins this match up. I think it is going to be one of those fights where the fight is closer than the scores indacate. I can see Ali winning almost every round but Holyfield will make him work for those rounds. I don't see any knockdowns or knockouts in this match up.
6. Rocky Marciano. Marciano always has a punchers chance but I Ali is going to keep his distance and out box him to a clear decision victory.
I forgot to rank Larry Holmes. I would rank Holmes at 5 between Frazier and Holyfield. While Holmes may have one of the best jabs in the history along with exlent skills and power. I think Ali is going to be to fast for him. Ali by decision.

[bodhi]

Frazier. He actually did it. Holmes and Lewis would be second and third and be favourites to beat Ali. Louis is 50/50. Marcinao ad abour 40-45% of a chance I think. I can´t see Holyfield winning. Ali is better than Evander in beeing Evander when the going get´s tough. And I disagree with the people thinking Tyson would beat Ali. Two reasons. Patterson had a very similar style to Tyson wad was clearly beaten. Two times. Tyson hit´s harder, is bigger and his style is more refined. But Patterson has more heart and was the better technically. I think these two fights gives us a better indication how Tyson would do against Ali than the Frazier fights. The second reason was already briefly mentioned by Sweet Pea. Mental games. Tyson had mental issued, he could be provoked and you could play with his mind if you are good at these things. Ali was a master in this. IMO Ali would destroy Tyson mentally in the build up to the fight and would have Tyson beat before setting a foot into the ring.

[Bill Butcher]

I always felt a prime Tyson would have the best chance, his speed, power, bob n weave & relentlessness would be hard for any HW in history, even peak Ali.... his stamina was very good too.

I give Holyfield close to 0 shot tbh.

[Mordechai]

ali is way overrated. holmes would win by ud, holyfield would win by ud, tyson would knock him out in the first 4 rounds, lewis would knock him out late, frazier knocked him out...
i speak for all of them in their prime and a 12th rounds match

[Flea Man]

What a retard

[McGrain]

frazier knocked him out...


:lol:

[Mordechai]

What a retard

thanks for this intellegent quote.

you have all to stop looking at ali as he is god. he was great in HIS time, but he is not the greatest fighter of all time head to head.
holmes, lewis would give him a boxing clinic, especially holmes, 118-110
lewis would knock him out in the late rounds
even wlad klitschko would beat him big, with a very wide ud or a knockout.
ali would have big problems wit chris byrd

[Flea Man]

His time was THE time, Mong.

[Mordechai]

His time was THE time, Mong.

haha bullshit, because there were an all american time, the soviets and the cubans were not allowed to fight pro. a now think about that, if there were some soviets and cubans and would beat the shit out of the americans, you would say, what a weak division:rofl
piss of patriotic american fool

[bodhi]

haha bullshit, because there were an all american time, the soviets and the cubans were not allowed to fight pro. a now think about that, if there were some soviets and cubans and would beat the shit out of the americans, you would say, what a weak division:rofl
piss of patriotic american fool

I´m German and I agree with him - although I think it is overated but still the greatest era for hws.

[Flea Man]

Im English :lol:

[bodhi]

I´m pretty sure Ali would had been beaten by prime Norton (indeed Norton kicked his ass 3 times), prime Frazier (actually it happened :)) a prime Holmes, a Prime Louis, a prime gene tunney, a prime Lennox, a prime tyson (indeed i think tyson would had killed him), even a prime tua. There r some more, but i think everybody would agree at least with the ones above. By the way, I dont think the greatest was Ali at all, the greatest for me was Louis, by far.

Louis outboxed Tua with ease. What makes you think Ali with his speed advantage and superior footwork wouldn´t do the same or even better?
Tunney? Ali was like a bigger, better version of Tunney. I have no doubts he would beat him at his own game.
Norton? Norton would do well against Ali but Ali´s footwork wasn´t the same as in his prime when they fought. 50/50 prime for prime.

[Mordechai]

I´m German and I agree with him - although I think it is overated but still the greatest era for hws.

i'm german, too, and in my opinion the best era of boxing was from 1991 till 1998, with holyfield, lewis, bowe, tyson, bruno, foreman, morrison and so on. because there were skilled super heavyweights.
ali's era was great, too, with frazier, foreman, norton, lyle, liston,
but not as good as the 90s era.

[bodhi]

Im English :lol:

I pity you :yep

[Flea Man]

Racist cunts. Thought you were better than that Bodhi :lol:

[turpinr]

lewis
holmes
louis
frazier
the others wouldn't cause ali much problem.dempsey shouldn't even be in the same city

[McGrain]

This guy is an idiot. "If the Klit's second name was Smith they would be the greatest heavyweights ever!" One of these fucking mooks that think the world is out to get whites etc. Seeks to undermine anyone who might negate this point of view. Think of an openly racist, really stupid version of Mendoza and you are just about there. Don't talk to him, and certainly don't agree with him, perhaps he will go away.

[bodhi]

Racist cunts. Thought you were better than that Bodhi :lol:

Can´t help myself, it´s in the blood :lol:

[Flea Man]

Well I hold no grudges against any nationalities myself

[bodhi]

Well I hold no grudges against any nationalities myself

No humour, eh? Guess you are more German than English, then. :good

[Flea Man]

No humour, eh? Guess you are more German than English, then. :good

Sorry mate, I was referring to McGrains point :lol: at this

[mcvey]

When comes to Prime H2H Heavyweight fantasy fight talk, Ali is most often the favoured fighter above all. For good reason too, he had the best hand speed and foot speed, a true warriors heart, an iron chin, godlike reflexes, head movement and defence, a mammoth amount of stamina, as well as pinpoint accuracy and masterful skill with legendary ring intelligence...one could go on.

This topic concerns a discussion of which boxers have the most realistic chances in their respective primes against a 1964-1967 Ali. Posts should focus upon scenarios where other boxers can beat him, but also where Ali can defeat them. In the poll I tried to include the most frequently considered H2H opponents to make for a possibly well matched fight, I apologise if the selection doesn't cater for all.

I'll go for Holmes ,followed by Lewis.

[Stevie G]

The ones with the best chance,I think,would be Joe Frazier,Ken Norton and Joe Louis.

[frankenfrank]

Tyson or Frazier. I think they stand out over the others big time. Dempsey should've made the poll...
between these two it is obviously tyson. he was stronger , faster and about the same chin , probably more. he also had the better boxing technique , he proved it many times against much bigger and opposing opponents whom frazier would have ended on the lower hand most of the times had he faced them. tyson massacred holmes , berbick , spinks , bruno , smith , ruddock and more.
all of these guys would have at least given hell to a prime ali.
who knows ? maybe ali could have taken tyson the distance. after all , mind you , he was so much bigger , but tyson would have won on effective aggressiveness.

[Stevie G]

between these two it is obviously tyson. he was stronger , faster and about the same chin , probably more. he also had the better boxing technique , he proved it many times against much bigger and opposing opponents whom frazier would have ended on the lower hand most of the times had he faced them. tyson massacred holmes , berbick , spinks , bruno , smith , ruddock and more.
all of these guys would have at least given hell to a prime ali.
who knows ? maybe ali could have taken tyson the distance. after all , mind you , he was so much bigger , but tyson would have won on effective aggressiveness.
Holmes would always have been a tough match for Ali,true. I simply can't imagine the likes of Berbick,Spinks,Bruno,Smith and Ruddock being anything more than minor irritations to a prime Muhammad.

[PetethePrince]

This guy is an idiot. "If the Klit's second name was Smith they would be the greatest heavyweights ever!" One of these fucking mooks that think the world is out to get whites etc. Seeks to undermine anyone who might negate this point of view. Think of an openly racist, really stupid version of Mendoza and you are just about there. Don't talk to him, and certainly don't agree with him, perhaps he will go away.

What's a mook?

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[PetethePrince]

between these two it is obviously tyson. he was stronger , faster and about the same chin , probably more. he also had the better boxing technique , he proved it many times against much bigger and opposing opponents whom frazier would have ended on the lower hand most of the times had he faced them. tyson massacred holmes , berbick , spinks , bruno , smith , ruddock and more.
all of these guys would have at least given hell to a prime ali.
who knows ? maybe ali could have taken tyson the distance. after all , mind you , he was so much bigger , but tyson would have won on effective aggressiveness.

Possibly, perhaps probably. But Frazier had that work-rate swarming style. Tyson was a mid-range bomber. A little different. The longer the fight goes the better Ali's chances. That's not quite the case with Frazier. They are a little different. Tyson's the biggest and faster Dempsey, while Frazier is the swarming workhorse.

[frankenfrank]

Holmes would always have been a tough match for Ali,true. I simply can't imagine the likes of Berbick,Spinks,Bruno,Smith and Ruddock being anything more than minor irritations to a prime Muhammad.
his lesser brother came on equal terms with a not that old ali , while he himself came on even terms twice with that holmes , he'd end at least as good as his brother against any version of ali you will pick.

[frankenfrank]

Frazier. He actually did it. Holmes and Lewis would be second and third and be favourites to beat Ali. Louis is 50/50. Marcinao ad abour 40-45% of a chance I think. I can´t see Holyfield winning. Ali is better than Evander in beeing Evander when the going get´s tough. And I disagree with the people thinking Tyson would beat Ali. Two reasons. Patterson had a very similar style to Tyson wad was clearly beaten. Two times. Tyson hit´s harder, is bigger and his style is more refined. But Patterson has more heart and was the better technically. I think these two fights gives us a better indication how Tyson would do against Ali than the Frazier fights. The second reason was already briefly mentioned by Sweet Pea. Mental games. Tyson had mental issued, he could be provoked and you could play with his mind if you are good at these things. Ali was a master in this. IMO Ali would destroy Tyson mentally in the build up to the fight and would have Tyson beat before setting a foot into the ring.
you just forgot that except of tyson's size and power he also had a much better chin. in his prime better than frazier's chin.

[Minotauro]

Louis

[pryorgatti]

Mike Tyson
Riddick Bowe
Larry Holmes

[PowerPuncher]

Only Tyson and Holmes. Tyson's style was perfect to beat Holmes and the Ali clones of the 80s. Tyson's speed of hand and foot speed are a near match for Ali. Combined that with his pressure and Ali's lack of power means Tyson is going to land, Ali is open to good left hookers and Tysons is 1 of the best left hooks in history, Tysons fast jab is an that will see Ali makes mistakes. Tysons head movement would also see Ali miss more these accustomed to. Tysons combination throwing, precision and power makes him a bigger threat of stopping Ali that anyone the greatest ever faced. I do think Alis movement, jab, reach and combinations would bamboozle Tyson at times and as long as Ali gets out of the early rounds hes going to take over the show down the stretch and win a hard UD

Holmes because hes a great boxer with an amazing jab and that could neutralise Alis speed somewhat and win him rounds in a close fight, I'd pick Ali but that would be close

[leverage]

What a retard
My thoughts exactly.:thumbsup

[DonBoxer]

I give Lewis, Holmes and Tyson a good chance.

Lewis- Is very adaptable and providing he sticks to a game plan could maybe even out point Ali. Ali often uses speed and reach to out point opponents Lewis has a decent jab and a reach advantage over Ali, all be it only 2". His timing is good enough to be catching Ali this paired with the finishing ability of Lewis could see Ali hurt and slowed down.
When Ali slows down he relies on being bigger and often stronger than his opponent, clinching with Frazier and Foreman even though this was in 75" 74". He can not rely on holding down on Lewis of pushing him around as Lewis is simply too big and heavy for this. If he ties with Lewis he is tying up with the most brutal in clinch fighter there is and I just don’t seeing it working well.
Still Ali has speed and is so unorthodox I have no idea how he approaches this fight I give this fight 50/50

Holmes- If Ali tries to box with Holmes he looses on points IMO. I can not think of any HW who can stand and outbox Holmes, he has a perfect jab and has no big flaws for Ali to exploit. Again Ali is unorthodox in style and has foot and hand speed advantages and is a nightmare to predict I do wonder how Holmes copes with Ali’s ability to change what he is doing in any round. Close fight and I think it is only ever won on points. 55-45 in Alis favour.

Tyson- His constant pressure could prove too much for Ali to deal with and his ability to throw accurate, fast hard hitting combinations to the body and head means he may get the better of Ali if Ali can not find a solution to this. The fact is Tyson is always going to come into the fight with this in mind and generally if Ali knows what you are going to do he has a way to beat that. Tyson may find him self not catching Ali and getting his face jabbed off because no way can he n use head movement and chase Ali around the ring for 12 rounds. When/If he does catch Ali, Ali is going to be covering the head it’s just a case of how long can Ali take those shots to the body.
Again 55-45 in Alis favour.

[robert ungurean]

Holmes
Frazier
Louis

[Stevie G]

I think it's two styles. One being the Tyson, Frazier style of getting low and inside, and the other being the Holmes, Lewis style of using fundamental boxing skills and in Lewis' case reach and power advantages.

Holmes might have an edge in the jab department, if so he too, could potentially outbox Ali.
I can't see Tyson doing it,at all. He'd implode because of being discouraged and frustrated. For me,it would be Louis,Frazier or Holmes.

[itrymariti]

Frazier did it.

[Muchmoore]

Frazier did it.

If you consider that version of Ali prime, yeah.

I don't know though. Louis, Marciano are both good picks. Tyson and Dempsey would bring different things to the table than Ali has ever seen as well.

[gentleman jim]

This is an interesting question...If you had asked me this question say 15-20 years ago I would've said Ali beats 'em all. But time has put a different perspective on this. Ali in his prime was something no question about that...But the fighters he fought during that time didn't challenge him the way that men like Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey would have. Many use the Cleveland Williams fight as the definitive proof that Ali in his prime was unbeatable..But Williams was a stand up straight fighter who followed Ali in a straight line looking to land a bomb. In other words tailor made for Ali. Louis was a precision boxer-puncher who had the best arsenal of intelligently thrown punches backed up by solid fundementals in boxing history. Dempsey at his best came at you from angles whipping in power punches to the head and body and posessing arguably the greatest left hook in HW history...The one punch that Ali was most susceptible to because he leaned back. Holmes and Lewis would be no walk in the park either. Two big tough highly skilled boxers. I remember reading somewhere that if you looked at HW h2h matchups as a baseball season, at the end of the "season" Ali would probably finish in 1st place but he certainly wouldn't finish undefeated. This seems to me an accurate assesment.

[ATP]

IMO Any fighter in Kalasinns list could beat Ali on their best day, look at buster douglas..He wanted to beat tyson, & on that night he was more focused on his task than anybody on the planet....Its not about who would beat who, its about which fighter wants the victory more, which fighter is ready to step up and adapt to overwhelm Ali's style, and truly bring out the sweet science :bbb



Fraizer is my prime choice, unbelievably brilliant pressure fighter, and THAT left hook from god lol


And Lennox & Holmes have the jab.....:think Dammit we could talk about this all night

[tommygun711]

The style that gives Ali the most trouble is the rough brawlers/swarmers that don't try to box Ali, so that includes Frazier and Tyson, and Marciano. Frazier would always give Ali a great fight, Tyson might crumble though, he doesn't have the will and heart that Frazier had and that's what kept Frazier on his feet throughout the whole fight

[tommygun711]

IMO Any fighter in Kalasinns list could beat Ali on their best day
COULD, but would they?
Lennox has the size, the jab, and the power to give Ali LOTS of problems
Holmes would always give Ali a tough fight based on his speed and heart and the jab
Holyfield would too, just because he wouldn't give up and would have the speed and endurance to keep up with Ali.
Tyson has the speed, power, left hook, and bobbing and weaving to give so much trouble to Ali. If he had the will of Frazier then he would have an excellent shot.

[Muchmoore]

Lennox's jab is getting over rated here.

[tommygun711]

Lennox's jab is getting over rated here.
yes he pawed with it a lot, but it's lengthy, powerful, and fast, its a good weapon for sure

[Azzer85]

IMO
Joe Louis (as great as he was) doesnt stand a chance, i feel he was wayyy to flat footed, the pre exile ALI would dance around him all night, the post exile Ali would probably box, clinch and frustrate Louis and maybe even use the rope a dope now and then if/when he gets exhausted. Power alone isnt going to beat Ali, just ask Foreman.
Ive got the by Thomas Hauser and Ali states something similiar "Joe Lous was too flat footed. Float like a butterfly sting like a bee, your hands cant hit what your eyes cant see." Louis would eat jabs all night, he also doesnt have the lateral upper body movement of Frazier to avoid Alis punches.

Larry Holmes has the long range jab style, but (this might hurt a few feelings) Holmes was basically an Ali clone but with a harder right hand. I dont see Holmes outboxing Ali, Ali does everything Holmes does but better.

Lennox Lewis - this is an interesting one. Lennox has beat a variety of styles and imo has the 2nd best resume out of all the heavyweights. His 2 losses come purely out of lack of concentration and overconfidence. He can brawl and he can box, hes good at adapting, however i dont think he has fought anyone as fast as Ali or someone with a good range jab, Alis speed and chin would be put to good use in this fight. However if Bruno could outbox Lennox for a few rounds then i guess Ali could. Expect a chess match here.

Joe Frazier - Cant be arsed to talk about this one, we already saw it, and that wasnt even Ali in his prime.

Evander Holyfield - This would have been a 15 round Trilogy. It will probably be close scorecards and then Ali nips it purely because hes Ali. Its going to be a long night for both though. No KOs here. And if Holyfield wins, hell give his "My god is the true god speech..."

Rocky Marciano - see Ali Vs Frazier, it would be a tough fight....while it lasts. Rock cuts easily and Ali would no doubt take advantage of that. Ali would stop him on cuts.

Mike Tyson - Poses the biggest threat, because SPEED KILLS (anybody whose laced a pair will know what i mean). Ali never EVER fought anyone as fast as himself and Tyson is probably the fastest heavyweight ever.....not to mention he had great timing and accuracy and he hit pretty hard too. People keep talking about Tysons mental problems...bullshit...that was only after Don King, Robin Givens (and her mother) had their tentacles wrapped around him. And even then his mental problems were OUTSIDE the ring. Inside the ring he was the man.....see Spinks fight.
Remember it was a short left hook from Cooper that dropped ALI. Its always the punch you dont see coming that hurts. THIS is what made Tyson the man. It wasnt his power (which i feel is slightly overated) it was his accurate, pinpoint fast powerful punches in bunches, one of those punches will connect. Ali could keep the shorter Tyson at bay with his jabs but Tyson will be going under that jab banging the body and then the head. Ali has the speed to fight going backwards, but Tyson will be chasing him down all night. If anything, i see Tyson winning this on points. If Frazier did it Tyson could. Tyson was faster than frazier, had better combinations, had a better chin and a much better defence. Frazier was a swarmer Tyson was a counter attacker. No way Ali KOs Tyson, if he couldnt KO Frazier, hes not Koing Tyson who had much better defence and chin.
I dont think the pre exile hits hard enough to get Tysons respect so Tyson will be all over him. The older Ali hits harder however he doesnt have the footwork to avoid Tyson for long. People compare Tyson to Foreman, George hit much harder than Tyson, but Tyson was much faster. You can see Georges punches a mile away....ever wondered why Cooper dropped Ali, but Foreman couldnt?

People need to stop comparing Tyson to Frazier, Liston, Patterson and Foreman, he wasnt any of these guys, he was his own person.

Im talking about Tyson 1986-1988......any Tyson after that sucks and should not even be mentioned.

Out of all the guys i believe Lewis And Tyson posed the biggest threat and could possibly beat Ali.
But if any of these guys do beat Ali it will only be the one time.

It all depends on which Ali were talkin about though...Pre or Post exile?

I thought id add VK/WK as well.

WK looks good outboxing smaller guys, but here he will be fighting a guy a similiar size to him. someone whose faster, with a better boxing mind, a better jab and a better chin. WK stands no chance....apart from maybe a lucky punch.....

VK is too flat footed, his great chin will keep him in the fight, however his tendency to get cut may mean he might be getting stopped if Ali peppers him with fast jabs and right hands. VK wouldnt be able to catch Ali.

[turpinr]

lewis has the best chance.marciano had practically none

[Azzer85]

lewis has the best chance.marciano had practically none

Totally agree :yep

[Boxed Ears]

thanks for this intellegent quote.

you have all to stop looking at ali as he is god. he was great in HIS time, but he is not the greatest fighter of all time head to head.
holmes, lewis would give him a boxing clinic, especially holmes, 118-110
lewis would knock him out in the late rounds
even wlad klitschko would beat him big, with a very wide ud or a knockout.
ali would have big problems wit chris byrd

:patsch :lol::lol::lol: This is great stuff. Can it/he be serious? :shock:

[Son of Gaul]

IMO
Joe Louis (as great as he was) doesnt stand a chance, i feel he was wayyy to flat footed, the pre exile ALI would dance around him all night, the post exile Ali would probably box, clinch and frustrate Louis and maybe even use the rope a dope now and then if/when he gets exhausted. Power alone isnt going to beat Ali, just ask Foreman.
Ive got the by Thomas Hauser and Ali states something similiar "Joe Lous was too flat footed. Float like a butterfly sting like a bee, your hands cant hit what your eyes cant see." Louis would eat jabs all night, he also doesnt have the lateral upper body movement of Frazier to avoid Alis punches.

Larry Holmes has the long range jab style, but (this might hurt a few feelings) Holmes was basically an Ali clone but with a harder right hand. I dont see Holmes outboxing Ali, Ali does everything Holmes does but better.

Lennox Lewis - this is an interesting one. Lennox has beat a variety of styles and imo has the 2nd best resume out of all the heavyweights. His 2 losses come purely out of lack of concentration and overconfidence. He can brawl and he can box, hes good at adapting, however i dont think he has fought anyone as fast as Ali or someone with a good range jab, Alis speed and chin would be put to good use in this fight. However if Bruno could outbox Lennox for a few rounds then i guess Ali could. Expect a chess match here.

Joe Frazier - Cant be arsed to talk about this one, we already saw it, and that wasnt even Ali in his prime.

Evander Holyfield - This would have been a 15 round Trilogy. It will probably be close scorecards and then Ali nips it purely because hes Ali. Its going to be a long night for both though. No KOs here. And if Holyfield wins, hell give his "My god is the true god speech..."

Rocky Marciano - see Ali Vs Frazier, it would be a tough fight....while it lasts. Rock cuts easily and Ali would no doubt take advantage of that. Ali would stop him on cuts.

Mike Tyson - Poses the biggest threat, because SPEED KILLS (anybody whose laced a pair will know what i mean). Ali never EVER fought anyone as fast as himself and Tyson is probably the fastest heavyweight ever.....not to mention he had great timing and accuracy and he hit pretty hard too. People keep talking about Tysons mental problems...bullshit...that was only after Don King, Robin Givens (and her mother) had their tentacles wrapped around him. And even then his mental problems were OUTSIDE the ring. Inside the ring he was the man.....see Spinks fight.
Remember it was a short left hook from Cooper that dropped ALI. Its always the punch you dont see coming that hurts. THIS is what made Tyson the man. It wasnt his power (which i feel is slightly overated) it was his accurate, pinpoint fast powerful punches in bunches, one of those punches will connect. Ali could keep the shorter Tyson at bay with his jabs but Tyson will be going under that jab banging the body and then the head. Ali has the speed to fight going backwards, but Tyson will be chasing him down all night. If anything, i see Tyson winning this on points. If Frazier did it Tyson could. Tyson was faster than frazier, had better combinations, had a better chin and a much better defence. Frazier was a swarmer Tyson was a counter attacker. No way Ali KOs Tyson, if he couldnt KO Frazier, hes not Koing Tyson who had much better defence and chin.
I dont think the pre exile hits hard enough to get Tysons respect so Tyson will be all over him. The older Ali hits harder however he doesnt have the footwork to avoid Tyson for long. People compare Tyson to Foreman, George hit much harder than Tyson, but Tyson was much faster. You can see Georges punches a mile away....ever wondered why Cooper dropped Ali, but Foreman couldnt?

People need to stop comparing Tyson to Frazier, Liston, Patterson and Foreman, he wasnt any of these guys, he was his own person.

Im talking about Tyson 1986-1988......any Tyson after that sucks and should not even be mentioned.

Out of all the guys i believe Lewis And Tyson posed the biggest threat and could possibly beat Ali.
But if any of these guys do beat Ali it will only be the one time.

It all depends on which Ali were talkin about though...Pre or Post exile?

I thought id add VK/WK as well.

WK looks good outboxing smaller guys, but here he will be fighting a guy a similiar size to him. someone whose faster, with a better boxing mind, a better jab and a better chin. WK stands no chance....apart from maybe a lucky punch.....

VK is too flat footed, his great chin will keep him in the fight, however his tendency to get cut may mean he might be getting stopped if Ali peppers him with fast jabs and right hands. VK wouldnt be able to catch Ali.

What made Larry Holmes so dangerous was that he had more than just the best jab ever. He had an atg right cross, a sublime uppercut, a thudding lead right and extraordinary heart. This total package is what makes him such a tough matchup for most of the guys on this list...except Tyson.

[tommygun711]

thanks for this intellegent quote.

you have all to stop looking at ali as he is god. he was great in HIS time, but he is not the greatest fighter of all time head to head.
holmes, lewis would give him a boxing clinic, especially holmes, 118-110
lewis would knock him out in the late rounds
even wlad klitschko would beat him big, with a very wide ud or a knockout.
ali would have big problems wit chris byrd
fucking dumbass..

[SenorRamirez]

No Norton ? No Foreman ? hm

[RockyJim]

The swarmers...Marciano..and of course Joe Frazier...

[Kalasinn]

No Norton ? No Foreman ? hm

Norton makes sense, because of his style, despite only beating a poorly conditioned Ali in the first fight, & a Shot Ali in the third fight, Norton was still competitive with Ali in the second fight, despite only taking 5 rounds. Of course, Ali of Norton II wasn't exactly a Peak Ali (it might've been the best Past-Prime version though), but then i'm told Norton wasn't at his best until '76 against Shot Ali.

Foreman is a ridiculous choice. Against a 32 year old Past-Prime Ali, a Peak Foreman didn't win a single round, was stunned by righthands several times & was KO'd.

[kmac]

for my 1000th post. i think a prime holmes give a prime ali the most fits. holyfield deserves mention here too. it's ridiculous how little respect evander gets in the classic section.

[lufcrazy]

For me louis is the greatest h2h heavyweight in history so I pick him above ali. After that i'd say frazier since he proved stylewise he'd always give ali trouble, as did norton.

[Jorodz]

for my 1000th post. i think a prime holmes give a prime ali the most fits. holyfield deserves mention here too. it's ridiculous how little respect evander gets in the classic section.

a fit, ready and determined vander (douglas fight) gives fits potentially to any heavyweight ever. he achieved his biggest glories after bulking up but i think at 205-210 he was a fucking machine

[kmac]

a fit, ready and determined vander (douglas fight) gives fits potentially to any heavyweight ever. he achieved his biggest glories after bulking up but i think at 205-210 he was a fucking machine

agreed, i think on a given night, evander could have beat any heavy that ever stepped in the ring.

[SenorRamirez]

Norton makes sense, because of his style, despite only beating a poorly conditioned Ali in the first fight, & a Shot Ali in the third fight, Norton was still competitive with Ali in the second fight, despite only taking 5 rounds. Of course, Ali of Norton II wasn't exactly a Peak Ali (it might've been the best Past-Prime version though), but then i'm told Norton wasn't at his best until '76 against Shot Ali.

Foreman is a ridiculous choice. Against a 32 year old Past-Prime Ali, a Peak Foreman didn't win a single round, was stunned by righthands several times & was KO'd.
Ali say that Norton beat him at he was in great shape ;=)
im sure norton is one of of ali´s nightmares

A yong foreman can beat ali,but only with correct dopes^^

Or a prime Sonny liston ;=/

[round15]

Norton makes sense, because of his style, despite only beating a poorly conditioned Ali in the first fight, & a Shot Ali in the third fight, Norton was still competitive with Ali in the second fight, despite only taking 5 rounds. Of course, Ali of Norton II wasn't exactly a Peak Ali (it might've been the best Past-Prime version though), but then i'm told Norton wasn't at his best until '76 against Shot Ali.

Foreman is a ridiculous choice. Against a 32 year old Past-Prime Ali, a Peak Foreman didn't win a single round, was stunned by righthands several times & was KO'd.

Foreman was actually ahead in the scorecards in Zaire. He was the one throwing the bombs even though most landed on Ali's arms, hips and a couple of shots to the body. To say that Foreman didn't win a round in Zaire is not accurate at all.

[Kalasinn]

Foreman was actually ahead in the scorecards in Zaire. He was the one throwing the bombs even though most landed on Ali's arms, hips and a couple of shots to the body. To say that Foreman didn't win a round in Zaire is not accurate at all.

Strange scorecards, they must have liked Foreman throwing crude swings which Ali blocked on his gloves & often countered...

I think you could give Foreman one round, if you are generous.

[Swarmer]

Joe Louis; he's generally the complete package physically and technically, would do well in eras with shorter or longer fights, and has demonstrated dominance over a long period.

[SenorRamirez]

foreman throwing alis arms....but ali stay only on the ropes or holding foreman...

[round15]

Part of the reason is that he lost these fights after spending several years of his prime accumulating ring rust. The post-ban Ali wasn't on the same level as the younger version for reflexes and hand speed. Frazier would not have caught the young Ali as much as he did in FOTC.

The Ali that lost to Frazier and Norton is catchable and beatable by guys like Frazier, prime Tyson (Tyson from the Douglas fight on would have almost 0% chance), and especially Joe Louis. The young Ali is likely to be as hard to hit as he was against Liston.

IMO the pre-ban Ali would perform a bit like Roy Jones Jr did against Hopkins or Toney - clearly dominating great fighters with vastly superior speed, reflexes, and footwork, never looking close to losing. The difference is that Ali has one of the best ever chins too so he would be even harder to beat H2H than prime RJJ was.

Agree with you to a certain degree.

I believe Frazier would have caught the 1960's Ali. Yes, the younger Ali was quicker and had better reflexes but the common misconception is that he danced for fifteen rounds against his opponents. This is not true. 1960's never danced for an entire fifteen round fight, but it's not like he wasn't moving his feet.

Ali was always susceptible to the left hook. That was one of his flaws. Frazier's left hook probably doesn't land as frequently as the FOTC like you say but he wouldn't find this Ali that much harder to hit. Joe would probably finish Ali where Henry Cooper didn't. Same with Norton. His style always gave Ali fits but I can see the younger Ali earning a split decision against him which could go either way.

[round15]

Strange scorecards, they must have liked Foreman throwing crude swings which Ali blocked on his gloves & often countered...

I think you could give Foreman one round, if you are generous.

And what was Ali doing on the ropes for the majority of the fight while Foreman was the one putting the pressure on him and landing?

Sorry, but a couple of flurries in the round doesn't constitute winning the round as far as I'm concerned. That's like saying Ali won all the middle rounds of the FOTC when he first tried the rope-a-dope against Frazier meanwhile Joe ripped left and right hooks to his body and head. Foreman tried to land the same body shots but couldn't do it effectively because Ali leaned back on loose ropes.

Ali did not win every round against Foreman.

[SenorRamirez]

And what was Ali doing on the ropes for the majority of the fight while Foreman was the one putting the pressure on him and landing?

Sorry, but a couple of flurries in the round doesn't constitute winning the round as far as I'm concerned. That's like saying Ali won all the middle rounds of the FOTC when he first tried the rope-a-dope against Frazier meanwhile Joe ripped left and right hooks to his body and head. Foreman tried to land the same body shots but couldn't do it effectively because Ali leaned back on loose ropes.

Ali did not win every round against Foreman.
:good

[Jorodz]

And what was Ali doing on the ropes for the majority of the fight while Foreman was the one putting the pressure on him and landing?

Sorry, but a couple of flurries in the round doesn't constitute winning the round as far as I'm concerned. That's like saying Ali won all the middle rounds of the FOTC when he first tried the rope-a-dope against Frazier meanwhile Joe ripped left and right hooks to his body and head. Foreman tried to land the same body shots but couldn't do it effectively because Ali leaned back on loose ropes.

Ali did not win every round against Foreman.

admittedly, some of those rounds are tough to score. foreman did likely take some of the early rounds with activity and despite his crudeness and poor accuracy, landed some brutal body shots. it wasn't til later in the fight that ali really opened up and started landed consistently

[Kalasinn]

And what was Ali doing on the ropes for the majority of the fight while Foreman was the one putting the pressure on him and landing?

Sorry, but a couple of flurries in the round doesn't constitute winning the round as far as I'm concerned. That's like saying Ali won all the middle rounds of the FOTC when he first tried the rope-a-dope against Frazier meanwhile Joe ripped left and right hooks to his body and head. Foreman tried to land the same body shots but couldn't do it effectively because Ali leaned back on loose ropes.

Ali did not win every round against Foreman.

In the 7 rounds before the KO round, i remember Ali stunned Foreman with timed righthands, 2 or 3 times in every round except for in round 2.

[McGrain]

And what was Ali doing on the ropes for the majority of the fight while Foreman was the one putting the pressure on him and landing?

Sorry, but a couple of flurries in the round doesn't constitute winning the round as far as I'm concerned. That's like saying Ali won all the middle rounds of the FOTC when he first tried the rope-a-dope against Frazier meanwhile Joe ripped left and right hooks to his body and head. Foreman tried to land the same body shots but couldn't do it effectively because Ali leaned back on loose ropes.

Ali did not win every round against Foreman.


I scored him one round the last time I scored it.

[PhillyPhan69]

Frazier everyday of the week and twice on Sundays!!!

I know it is popular to say the NO ONE can beat a Prime Ali or SRR, but I have always believed that anyone can lose to the wrong guy with the wrong style on the wrong night. In reality I believe all of those guys are capable of beating him, although I may not pick some of them. Were he to fight a series of fights against those guys or guys of that Caliber, I imagine he would lose a couple along the way.

I like Frazier, Louis & Holmes chances, I think Lewis, Tyson & Marciano have a decent shot...Holyfield is the only one I don't envision beating Ali or standing a decent shot.

[PetethePrince]

Foreman was not up on the cards.

In hindsight, Powerpuncher seems to have the most well-reasoned, well-argued post in this thread. I still think Frazier & Tyson are the biggest threats with Frazier slightly ahead than Tyson. If you can't knock Ali out, then you're going to need the stamina to sustain an attack. Frazier has this.

[janitor]

IMO
Joe Louis (as great as he was) doesnt stand a chance.

Not wishing to pick on you here, but definite coments like this are one of the worst aspects of the fantasy debates on this forum. Even the greatest fighters are human, and verry beatable.

I could find a heavyweight outside your top 20 list, who had a fairly good chance of beating Ali.

If the fight was actualy going to happen tomorrow, I doubt that you would bet any amount of money that you could not aford to loose. You would feel less self asured as the fight drew closer!

Who in their right mind would have given James Douglas a significant chance at beating Tyson?

Randy Turpin found a fight plan on the day to beat Sugar Ray!

[Bokaj]

And what was Ali doing on the ropes for the majority of the fight while Foreman was the one putting the pressure on him and landing?

Sorry, but a couple of flurries in the round doesn't constitute winning the round as far as I'm concerned.

Those "flurries" sure had more effect on Foreman than you would expect. They rocked him in rds 3, 4, 5 before KO'ing him in rd 8. This to a guy that barely let out a yawn the times Frazier caught him with left hooks, in between being bounced like a baskedball. Ali's "flurries" also did a number on Foreman's face, which was quite puffed by the end.

[Goyourownway]

I see atleast six great fighters listed there,and all six of these men are more than capable of beating Ali at his peak,just like he is more than capable of beating them at their respecive peaks.

[MagnaNasakki]

Outside of Frazier, probably Holmes. Tyson matches up well with him stylistically, but I think the mental game and intangibles Ali brought to the table win him that one. Holmes vs Ali might be close to 50/50 in my book.

This is my thought, really.

Ali proved he could overcome Frazier, but Frazier proved the same, so he's gotta rank.

I believe the only one who had the right tools, the right style AND the right mind was Holmes.

Ali is the H2H greatest, but these two, for my money, stand the best shot.

Louis, distant third. Too plodding, but had the mosts skills behind the biggest punch, so to speak, so you gotta give him a shot.

[Stevie G]

When comes to Peak H2H Heavyweight fantasy fight talk, Ali is most often the favoured fighter above all. For good reason too, he had the best hand speed and foot speed, a true warriors heart, an iron chin, godlike reflexes, head movement and defense, a mammoth amount of stamina, as well as pinpoint accuracy and masterful skill with legendary ring intelligence...one could go on.

This topic concerns a discussion of which boxers have the most realistic chances in their respective peaks against a 1966-67 Ali. Posts should focus upon scenarios where other boxers can beat him, but also where Ali can defeat them. In the poll I tried to include the most frequently considered H2H opponents to make for a possibly well matched fight, I apologise if the selection doesn't cater for all.
Joe Frazier,in my mind. Even the 1967 Ali would have found Joe a tough nut to crack. His left hook and all pressurising style would have been the main contributory factors here. Plus,similarly to Muhammad himself,Frazier had a never say die attitude.

Stlylewise,Rocky Marciano and Mike Tyson could have caused problems. Marciano,though,would bleed really badly against Ali's razor sharp combinations,forcing a stoppage.
Mike Tyson's mentality would cause him to fall short. Whereas Frazier had a walk through the bowels of hell mentality,in order to win,history has shown us that Tyson did n't have that quality. Frustration would set in after the sixth round or so,and Ali would then soften Mike up and eventually stop him.

[DonBoxer]

Maybe Derick Chisora , he is just like a bigger version of Frazier.

[Kalasinn]

Maybe Derick Chisora , he is just like a bigger version of Frazier.

Well Chisora is just a poor man's Sam Peter, so surely '05 Peter would perform even better against '67 Ali! :lol:

[DonBoxer]

Well Chisora is just a poor man's Sam Peter, so surely '05 Peter would perform even better against '67 Ali! :lol:

:nono He is a big Joe Frazier.

[Stevie G]

Those "flurries" sure had more effect on Foreman than you would expect. They rocked him in rds 3, 4, 5 before KO'ing him in rd 8. This to a guy that barely let out a yawn the times Frazier caught him with left hooks, in between being bounced like a baskedball. Ali's "flurries" also did a number on Foreman's face, which was quite puffed by the end.
:good There's no doubt that Foreman was being taking more punishment than Ali was. At the time of the stoppage,2.58 in the eighth round,I've consistently had the score 5-2-1 for Ali.

[Kalasinn]

I made this topic back in January 2010, when i had a strong dislike for Wlad.

Now i admit Peak Wlad ('06 Byrd II to '11 Haye) would give Peak Ali ('65 Patterson I to '67 Folley) a tremendously difficult boxing match, & thus should've been included in the poll options.