How many wins would Frazier have vs

[dmt]

the following ten:

Louis

Marciano

Liston

Ali

Foreman

Holmes

Holyfield

Lewis

Tyson

Bowe

Vitaly

[McGrain]

Louis..............nope.

Marciano.........i'd favour Joe

Liston............nope

Ali.................be a war peak for peak. Ali.

Foreman..........:blood

Holmes............toss a coin for me.

Holyfield..........i favour Frazier to break Hollyfield very late

Lewis.............Joe dominates the early rounds, but Lewis takes over and Joe is rescued late.

Tyson.............Tyson, early

Bowe..............Frazier

Vitaly.............I'll pick Frazier to come of the deck and get him.

So I go for 4 or five

[dmt]

some people argue that he was shot vs Foreman so i included Foreman

[mr. magoo]

[quote=dmt]
Louis..............nope.

Marciano.........i'd favour him

Liston............nope

Ali.................be a war peak for peak. Ali.

Foreman..........:blood

Holmes............toss a coin for me.

Holyfield..........i favour Frazier to break Hollyfield very late

Lewis.............Joe dominates the early rounds, but Lewis takes over and Joe is rescued late.

Tyson.............Tyson, early

Bowe..............Frazier

Vitaly.............I'll pick Frazier to come of the deck and get him.

So I go for 4 or five

Why the highlighted choices?

[RoccoMarciano]

Louis - I doubt it

Marciano - A good one, but no

Liston - probable, but not a sure bet

Ali - Didn't he already beat him?

Holmes - Beats him in 8

Holyfield - beats him in 6

Lewis - beats him in 12, or by decision

Tyson - great fight! I think Frazier would win by a KO, but it wouldn't be easy

Bowe - KO in 3

Vitaly - get real! Frazier in 1 by brutal KO!

[McGrain]

Why the highlighted choices?

God knows. I didn't highlight anything, if you see highlights, it isn't on my laptop.

[C. M. Clay II]

Louis - no

Marciano - probably

Liston - definetely not

Ali - probably not

Foreman - :rofl

Holmes - probably not

Holyfield - yes

Lewis - yes

Tyson - no

Bowe - yes

Vitaly - definetely yes

:good

[Blacc Jesus]

Louis - Frazier

Marciano - Frazier

Liston - Frazier

Ali - Ali

Foreman - Foreman

Holmes - Holmes

Holyfield - Frazier

Lewis - Frazier

Tyson - Frazier

Bowe - Frazier

Vitaly - Frazier

[RoccoMarciano]

Ali - Ali



Didn't he already beat "the greatest" twice?

[C. M. Clay II]

Louis - Frazier

Marciano - Frazier

Liston - Frazier

Ali - Ali

Foreman - Foreman

Holmes - Holmes

Holyfield - Frazier

Lewis - Frazier

Tyson - Frazier

Bowe - Frazier

Vitaly - Frazier

Where do you have Frazier on your all-time HW list?

[C. M. Clay II]

Didn't he already beat "the greatest" twice?

Sure, and I guess he beat Foreman too, right?:lol:

[RoccoMarciano]

Sure, and I guess he beat Foreman too, right?:lol:

Did he? News to me, CM!

As far as Frazier is concerned, at least once, and likely twice! Two times and Frazier is "the greatest", right?

[C. M. Clay II]

Did he? News to me, CM!

As far as Frazier is concerned, at least once, and likely twice! Two times and Frazier is "the greatest", right?

"as far as Frazier is concerned"...:lol:

Frazier thinks he would have Ko'd Ali in the Thrilla in Manila if he came out in the last round, so what?

He only beat Ali once and a rusty, heavier, and slower Ali at that.:good

[RoccoMarciano]

"as far as Frazier is concerned"...:lol:

Frazier thinks he would have Ko'd Ali in the Thrilla in Manila if he came out in the last round, so what?

He only beat Ali once and a rusty, heavier, and slower Ali at that.:good

Still beat the guy you nuthug, didn't he? More than once in my opinion.

[C. M. Clay II]

Still beat the guy you nuthug, didn't he? More than once in my opinion.

But that has little to do with a prime-for-prime matchup for both.

[C. M. Clay II]

Still beat the guy you nuthug, didn't he? More than once in my opinion.

BTW, look who's calling who a nuthug.:lol:

[RoccoMarciano]

But that has little to do with a prime-for-prime matchup for both.

Agreed! I rate Clay fairly high, believe it or not. I'm still not at all sure he was "the greatest" HW of all time as he liked to proclaim.

[C. M. Clay II]

Agreed! I rate Clay fairly high, believe it or not. I'm still not at all sure he was "the greatest" HW of all time as he liked to proclaim.

Name one heavy that has a better resume than Ali.

[PhillyPhan69]

7-2-2
I would favor him over all of them except Liston and Foreman who seem to be all wrong for him...and louis and Holmes I would call 50/50...i could possibly put Holyfield 50/50 as well, but not the rest of em'...Smokin' Joe still under rated after all these years!

[RoccoMarciano]

Name one heavy that has a better resume than Ali.

Frazier... he only beat him twice, in my opinion :lol:

Tyson and Marciano would have both given him worlds of hurt/trouble.

[cross_trainer]

Name one heavy that has a better resume than Ali.

Louis....and that about exhausts my store. In any event, Frazier already beat Ali when both were quite close to their best, so FOTC would be representative of how a fight would go prime-for-prime.

Thus...

Louis - Louis

Marciano - Frazier

Liston - Liston

Ali - Frazier

Foreman - Foreman

Holmes - Frazier

Holyfield - Frazier

Lewis - Lewis

Tyson - Tyson

Bowe - Frazier

Vitali - Frazier

[RoccoMarciano]

Marciano - Frazier



What makes you so certain Marciano would lose, CT?

[rydersonthestorm]

I think he wins four against marciano,bowe,vitali and holyfield.

[Blacc Jesus]

Where do you have Frazier on your all-time HW list? I've never compiled an all-time HW list before, but I'd say maybe 10 or 9.

[C. M. Clay II]

Frazier... he only beat him twice, in my opinion :lol:

Tyson and Marciano would have both given him worlds of hurt/trouble.

:rofl How does Frazier have a better resume than Ali.

Frazier's 5 best wins:

1971 Muhammad Ali
1970 Jimmy Ellis
1969 Jerry Quarry
1968 Buster Mathis
1968 Oscar Bonavena

Ali's 5 best wins:

1974 George Foreman
1964 Sonny Liston
1974 Joe Frazier
1975 Joe Frazier
1973 Ken Norton

No comparison.:yep

[RoccoMarciano]

:rofl How does Frazier have a better resume than Ali.

Frazier's 5 best wins:

1971 Muhammad Ali
1970 Jimmy Ellis
1969 Jerry Quarry
1968 Buster Mathis
1968 Oscar Bonavena

Ali's 5 best wins:

1974 George Foreman
1964 Sonny Liston
1974 Joe Frazier
1975 Joe Frazier
1973 Ken Norton

No comparison.:yep

Yes, but he (Frazier) still beat the guy you are comparing him with.. most likely twice. :lol:

[cross_trainer]

What makes you so certain Marciano would lose, CT?

Feminine intuition.

[C. M. Clay II]

Louis....and that about exhausts my store. In any event, Frazier already beat Ali when both were quite close to their best, so FOTC would be representative of how a fight would go prime-for-prime.

Louis' resume pales in comparison to Ali's.

Ali's 5 best wins:

1974 George Foreman
1964 Sonny Liston
1974 Joe Frazier
1975 Joe Frazier
1973 Ken Norton

Louis' 5 best wins:

1948 Jersey Joe Walcott
1941 Billy Conn
1938 Max Schmeling
1935 Max Baer
1935 Primo Carnera

It's a slaughter!:yep

[C. M. Clay II]

Yes, but he (Frazier) still beat the guy you are comparing him with.. most likely twice. :lol:

What's you're point?:huh

[cross_trainer]

Louis' resume pales in comparison to Ali's.

Ali's 5 best wins:

1974 George Foreman
1964 Sonny Liston
1974 Joe Frazier
1975 Joe Frazier
1973 Ken Norton

Louis' 5 best wins:

1948 Jersey Joe Walcott
1941 Billy Conn
1938 Max Schmeling
1935 Max Baer
1935 Primo Carnera

It's a slaughter!:yep

Only because you consider the 70's to be superior to the 40's from the outset. That, and the fact that you're comparing only top 5's rather than total volume and similar accomplishments (length and dominance of reign, for instance).

[C. M. Clay II]

Frazier already beat Ali when both were quite close to their best, so FOTC would be representative of how a fight would go prime-for-prime.

Not really. Frazier was peak for this fight. Ali was assuredly not. He was heavier around the middle and still rusty from that 3½ yr. layoff. Fight#2 is a better gauge, because both men by that time had declined at a similar rate.:good

[C. M. Clay II]

Only because you consider the 70's to be superior to the 40's from the outset. That, and the fact that you're comparing only top 5's rather than total volume and similar accomplishments (length and dominance of reign, for instance).

When I say resume, I mean opponents. Isn't that what resume means? So do you think Louis beat better opponents than Ali?

[cross_trainer]

Not really. Frazier was peak for this fight. Ali was assuredly not. He was heavier around the middle and still rusty from that 3½ yr. layoff. Fight#2 is a better gauge, because both men by that time had declined at a similar rate.:good

Doubtful, since in the first fight both men were at a physical and (more importantly) a psychological peak. Frazier was already in serious decline when Ali got him the second time.

Whereas in the first fight, Ali had had the benefits of two (victorious!) comeback fights over the two best opponents around. He had not yet taken the punishment of FOTC, and neither had Frazier. His layoff was compensated for by a greater physical maturity (strength and durability) that was evident during and after the fight. If he had won, there would not have been as much of a question about his abilities vis-a-vis his prime.

[cross_trainer]

When I say resume, I mean opponents. Isn't that what resume means? So do you think Louis beat better opponents than Ali?

Louis beat more contenders than Ali, and did so far more decisively. Many of the fighters Ali defeated were considered great because of their association with him. Louis never gave his opponents the chance to be considered great.

[RoccoMarciano]

Feminine intuition.

:lol: But your intuition may be a bit off.

Rocky had the better chin, and could throw very hard punches with both hands - not just one.

I don't see this as being an easy pick for any person. Rocky could have lost to Frazier, but I don't see it as a cut and dried matter.

[C. M. Clay II]

Doubtful, since in the first fight both men were at a physical and (more importantly) a psychological peak. Frazier was already in serious decline when Ali got him the second time.

Whereas in the first fight, Ali had had the benefits of two (victorious!) comeback fights over the two best opponents around. He had not yet taken the punishment of FOTC, and neither had Frazier. His layoff was compensated for by a greater physical maturity (strength and durability) that was evident during and after the fight. If he had won, there would not have been as much of a question about his abilities vis-a-vis his prime.

How was Ali at his "peak" when he was off boxing for 3.5 years and was not in the best of shape? Ali also was not in his phychological peak either. He didn't take Frazier seriously, while Frazier was mentally possesed on victory. Ali did take punishment to the body in the Bonavena fight and had to fight Frazier 3 months after. Ali was not peak in FOTC.

And as for the second fight, both men were in decline, that was my point.

[C. M. Clay II]

Louis beat more contenders than Ali, and did so far more decisively. Many of the fighters Ali defeated were considered great because of their association with him. Louis never gave his opponents the chance to be considered great.

Ali would have done the same thing had he fought Louis' opponents.

[RoccoMarciano]

Ali would have done the same thing had he fought Louis' opponents.

That's a load of BS!

[C. M. Clay II]

That's a load of BS!

Talk about nuthugging.:rofl

[Dempsey1238]

I think Schemling had the tools to pull a upset over Ali imo. I think Ali was bound to lose one or 2 in Louis's era.

[C. M. Clay II]

I think Schemling had the tools to pull a upset over Ali imo. I think Ali was bound to lose one or 2 in Louis's era.

Describe these "tools", please.

[cross_trainer]

Ali would have done the same thing had he fought Louis' opponents.

Speculation is no substitute for accomplishment. Therein lies the rub--Louis proved he could dominate his own era better than Ali proved he could dominate his.

[cross_trainer]

How was Ali at his "peak" when he was off boxing for 3.5 years and was not in the best of shape?

He was coming off of two of his best wins to date, both fairly easy. He was highly motivated to beat Frazier--this was the biggest fight of his career, and he realized its importance.

Ali also was not in his phychological peak either. He didn't take Frazier seriously, while Frazier was mentally possesed on victory. Ali did take punishment to the body in the Bonavena fight and had to fight Frazier 3 months after. Ali was not peak in FOTC.

Now that's just silly. If FOTC couldn't motivate Ali, there is nothing that could.


And as for the second fight, both men were in decline, that was my point.

Yeah, but Ali had a lot more left...and as you know, past-prime matchups (like Holyfield-Tyson, for instance) become less and less reliable as both fighters get older.

[ChrisPontius]

Ali would have done the same thing had he fought Louis' opponents.

Yep, were his name to stand next to names like Godoy, they would "be champions in every other era" and be semi-great just like for instance Quarry, Norton and Bonavena are for losing to Ali.

[Luigi1985]

I think Schemling had the tools to pull a upset over Ali imo. I think Ali was bound to lose one or 2 in Louis's era.


Nobody would beat a prime Ali. In the 60s, he was unbeatable. OK, he was KD and almost KO´d by Cooper, but only because he fooled around. Against Banks also. Against Doug Jones, he was too green, and btw, he had a headache and so, a healthy version would have KTFO Jones. I would only favour slightly some really big mammals (Polar Bears, Sibirian Tigers, etc.), but humans? No way in hell... Ali, his opponents, and the whole era were clearly the best ever, in every single category! :hi:

[rydersonthestorm]

lol :)

[cross_trainer]

I would only favour slightly some really big mammals

:lol:

[Dempsey1238]

Schemling had was a good counter puncher, Ali is not God, which you people seem to be placing Ali on. Prime Ali could be beating. No one is unbeating. Schemling had good power, underated speed, he could put combintions togetor, I think Schemling could pull the upset like Ken Norton did. Schemling was pretty tricky, unless you can blast him out like Max Baer did of couse.

[brooklyn1550]

I'd say 4 or 5

[Maxmomer]

Still beat the guy you nuthug, didn't he? More than once in my opinion.

Besides the FOTC which fight do you think he won?

[Marciano Frazier]

I'll go with 6.

[Dempsey1238]

Almost evey one has Fraizer beating the Rock. I belive its 50 50. But I lean more with the Rock for his 2 handed power.

[Marciano Frazier]

Almost evey one has Fraizer beating the Rock. I belive its 50 50. But I lean more with the Rock for his 2 handed power. When there have been Marciano-vs.-Frazier polls in the past, Marciano's won.

[Marciano Frazier]

Louis

Marciano

Liston
I'd make Joe even-odds or a slight underdog against these guys, but I think he'd at least win one of these three fights.

Ali
About 50/50

Foreman
Foreman is obviously a heavy favorite.

Holmes

Holyfield
Edge to Frazier in these fights.

Lewis

Tyson
About even odds here.

Bowe

Vitaly
Clear edge to Joe.

Thus, I would expect a total of 5-7 wins for Frazier.

[Drew101]

Louis~ Louis, although Frazier would have his moments.

Marciano~ Marciano (understand why others pick Frazier.)

Liston~ Liston

Ali~ Ali...just.

Foreman~ Ummmmmm....yeah, that about says it all.:D

Holmes~ Holmes.

Holyfield~ Frazier edges a close decision. A bit like Holyfiedl-Qawi 1, except Frazier actually can really hurt Holyfield.

Lewis~ Lewis

Tyson~ If I think Marciano can withstand Tyson's early round assault, Frazier can too. Frazier in the later rounds.

Bowe~ Frazier.

Vitaly ~ Frazier

4 out of 10.

[JimboDs]

I have to say that I think Frazier gets underrated a lot. IMO, if he's not in your top 5, you're underrating him.

A great left hook was not all that Frazier had. However, if you have arguably the best left hook of all time, you don't need your right hand to beat most fighters. A sharp fast left hook is very difficult to punch to stop and throwing same does not expose a fighter to counter-punches the same way that throwing right hands does.

Frazier also had incredible stamina, a great chin, unbelievable heart, and was surpassed only by a few HW's in punching power. He also had great defensive and presure fighting skills.

On his best day, I give him a great shot to beat just about anyone.

[JimboDs]

Top 5 might be a little strict, but you get my point.

He's #4 on my list. I have Louis, Ali and Dempsey ahead of him. I'm not of the opinion that a prime Ali beats a prime Frazier, but I have to rate him higher as a result of his career accomplishments. Marciano is #5 on my list btw. I have Frazier edging him out by a cunt hair based on performance and quality of opposition.

[NickHudson]

Limiting it to mammals underrates the animal kingdom somewhat.:fire

I would say an 8 metre saltwater croc would have a great chance against prime Ali, so would a 6 metre great white shark - especially if the bout was staged in a submerged ring...


Nobody would beat a prime Ali. In the 60s, he was unbeatable. OK, he was KD and almost KO´d by Cooper, but only because he fooled around. Against Banks also. Against Doug Jones, he was too green, and btw, he had a headache and so, a healthy version would have KTFO Jones. I would only favour slightly some really big mammals (Polar Bears, Sibirian Tigers, etc.), but humans? No way in hell... Ali, his opponents, and the whole era were clearly the best ever, in every single category! :hi:

[NickHudson]

:deal



Louis - Louis

Marciano - Frazier by a C-hair, I would be prepared to lose a testicle to see this war...

Liston - Liston early or Frazier late

Ali - Ali UD

Foreman - Foreman

Holmes - Frazier wears him down, late stoppage or UD, great fight

Holyfield - Frazier narrow UD

Lewis - Frazier UD, won on superior activity

Tyson - Tyson KO early or Frazier decision

Bowe - Frazier narrow UD

Vitaly - Frazier KO

[young griffo]

Nobody would beat a prime Ali. In the 60s, he was unbeatable. OK, he was KD and almost KO´d by Cooper, but only because he fooled around. Against Banks also. Against Doug Jones, he was too green, and btw, he had a headache and so, a healthy version would have KTFO Jones. I would only favour slightly some really big mammals (Polar Bears, Sibirian Tigers, etc.), but humans? No way in hell... Ali, his opponents, and the whole era were clearly the best ever, in every single category! :hi:
Siberian Tigers and Polar Bears over Ali???

I see you're backing the white guys over the black guy as usual Luigi.

[McGrain]

Ali - Frazier

:blood :bart

[Mendoza]

Louis 40/60

Marciano 45/55

Liston 25/75

Ali 40/60

Foreman 10/90

Holmes 40/60

Holyfield 40/60

Lewis 20/80

Tyson 20/80

Bowe 35/65

Vitaly 50/50

365/1000 or 3.65 projected wins out of ten. I'd guess 4. Frazier's main problem is he doesn't match up well vs big punchers, and although he beat some big heavies, he didn't look great vs Mathis or Bugner.

This list is full of punchers, and much better big heavies. Sorry Frazier fans. If Charles, Corbett, and Tunney were on the list, I'd pick Frazier in these fights.

[Mendoza]

Mendoza is one of those who underrate Frazier. Remember, he thinks Ken Norton should be rated above Frazier.

35/65 against Bowe? Frazier would crush him.

No, I don't think Norton should be rated above Frazier. I never said that. I think what should be remembered here is the person who is mis quoting others and starting trouble.

Frazier big favorite over Bowe? Let's look at Frazier's fights vs Large heavies. Frazier was down on points to an over weight Buster Mathis until round seven, and was stunned and failed to stop Joe Bugner. I think Bowe is much better and hits much harder than Mathis or Bugner.

Bowe owned a prime Holyfield who had a much better chin than Frazier, more variety, and better size. Bowe had a good right and uppercut, which are punches that worked well vs Frazier. In all his fights, Bowe has yet to be knocked out. Frazier is not winning this one on points; he could not take too many of Bowe power shots either. Frazier would need to start fast ( which he usually did not ), and get to Bowe before Bowe landed his bombs.

[Holmes' Jab]

I think:


Louis: Louis, late stoppage.

Marciano: Frazier.

Liston: Liston, early KO.

Ali: Prime-Ali, UD.

Foreman: Foreman, early. It already happened (twice). :tong

Holmes: Holmes, UD.

Holyfield: Frazier, by decision.

Lewis: Lewis, late KO.

Tyson: Tyson gets to Joe. Early.

Bowe: Frazier, by TKO.

Vitali: Frazier stops him mid-rounds.


* That's 4 wins then for Frazier. :good

[guilalah]

Probably five wins; six more likely than four.

[Luigi1985]

Siberian Tigers and Polar Bears over Ali???

I see you're backing the white guys over the black guy as usual Luigi.


:lol:


My racism is detected now!!! :shock:

[Luigi1985]

Limiting it to mammals underrates the animal kingdom somewhat.:fire

I would say an 8 metre saltwater croc would have a great chance against prime Ali, so would a 6 metre great white shark - especially if the bout was staged in a submerged ring...



That´s not fair for the humans, in the water both animals would be in their element, but on the other side, even in the water Ali was so fast, I don´t think the saltwater croc or the white shark would get him to be honest...

[mr. magoo]

That´s not fair for the humans, in the water both animals would be in their element, but on the other side, even in the water Ali was so fast, I don´t think the saltwater croc or the white shark would get him to be honest...

Ali at the pre fight interview with the shark:


Great white come out bitin' but I'll be already fightin'

He'll be snapin' and a chompin' but I'll come back rompin'

He'll come at me swimin' and I'll give him a whippin'

This might sound aweful flighty but I will destroy ol' whitie

[Luigi1985]

Ali at the pre fight interview with the shark:


Great white come out bitin' but I'll be already fightin'

He'll be snapin' and a chompin' but I'll come back rompin'

He'll come at me swimin' and I'll give him a whippin'

This might sound aweful flighty but I will destroy ol' whitie


:rofl


Hey, gratulations, that´s really awesome! :thumbsup

[cuchulain]

the following ten:

Louis NO

Marciano NO

Liston NO

Ali NO

Foreman NEVER

Holmes NO

Holyfield YES

Lewis NO

Tyson PROBABLY (60-40)

Bowe PROBABLY (60-40)

Vitaly PROBABLY (55-45) .

[groove]

Frazier only fought Ali and Foreman on that list. Liston i pick and Tyson a good chance but all the others it could go either way. I don't think Louis or Marciano ever fought a fighter as great as Frazier. Marciano was getting a beating by Walcott until the ko. I think Frazier would destroy Walcott with no big problems, same with Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore.

[Luigi1985]

Frazier only fought Ali and Foreman on that list. Liston i pick and Tyson a good chance but all the others it could go either way. I don't think Louis or Marciano ever fought a fighter as great as Frazier. Marciano was getting a beating by Walcott until the ko. I think Frazier would destroy Walcott with no big problems, same with Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore.

Nothing new from an Ali- nuthugger, who tries indirectly always hype up Ali´s career in every post...


the normal Ali- fan is a threatened variety, I think in the sooner future totally extinct...

[groove]

and nothing new from the clown of the forum who thinks he's some kind of expert on boxing - has the info but hasn't got any boxing brain :lol:

[My dinner with Conteh]

the normal Ali- fan is a threatened variety, I think in the sooner future totally extinct...


I think I fit that category if you don't mind. :good

[Luigi1985]

I think I fit that category if you don't mind. :good


I know you, MDWC, and I know that you´re a normal fan, like me. :thumbsup

[Luigi1985]

and nothing new from the clown of the forum who thinks he's some kind of expert on boxing - has the info but hasn't got any boxing brain :lol:



:smooch Thank you for your indirect compliment!