What All Time Greats do you think Wlad Klitschko would beat?

[Asterion]

What do you think? (All Time Great at HW)

Anyone?

[2smart4u]

:yep All of them ! 3 or 4 on the same night ! Long live the STEELE HAMMAR !:bbb

[Carlos Primera]

so you know, i'm looking at this in a "if you could time warp the current wlad to that era" viewpoint. dempsey, jack johnson, joe louis, marciano..... basically any pre-liston ATG at heavy, all get destroyed by wlad on the same night.

those who think jack johnson's "amazing defence" will let him survive against wlad will be in for a rude awakening when one wlad right cross splits his guard, catches him leaning back and caves his face in.

[Decker]

Agree, with the early posts. Wlad would blow away most, if not all of the CW-small HW (todays standards) HW champs of the past. He'd beat or be very competitive to any HW champ since the 70s.

[Rollo]

Frazier
Patterson
Marciano
Charles
Walcott
Braddock
Baer

[Rollo]

BS! I wasn´t finished!

Schmeling
Tunney
Demsey

[sthomas]

How many of the future Heavyweight champs, say 60 years from now, will Wlad beat in a time warp match? They'll be bigger stronger and faster. So just like all the pre-1970 guys Wlad will not stand a chance.

[Shane]

None They are ATG for a reason Will Waldo be considered an ATG when he is done Fuck no...

[Rollo]

BS!!! I STILL haven´t finished!!!

Willard
(Please notice that I left out Johnson)
Burns
(Hart wasn´t an all timer)
Jeffries
Fitzsimmons
Corbett

[cuchulain]

so you know, i'm looking at this in a "if you could time warp the current wlad to that era" viewpoint. dempsey, jack johnson, joe louis, marciano..... basically any pre-liston ATG at heavy, all get destroyed by wlad on the same night.

those who think jack johnson's "amazing defence" will let him survive against wlad will be in for a rude awakening when one wlad right cross splits his guard, catches him leaning back and caves his face in.

I'm a big Wlad fan but I don't think he is an ATG (at least not yet).

I don't believe that he would beat any of the four you mentioned.

[GazOC]

so you know, i'm looking at this in a "if you could time warp the current wlad to that era" viewpoint. dempsey, jack johnson, joe louis, marciano..... basically any pre-liston ATG at heavy, all get destroyed by wlad on the same night.

those who think jack johnson's "amazing defence" will let him survive against wlad will be in for a rude awakening when one wlad right cross splits his guard, catches him leaning back and caves his face in.

I've always said this. To me most pre Liston heavies would have stuggled with the bigger guys.

[Muchmoore]

Frazier
Patterson
Marciano
Charles
Walcott
Braddock
Baer

Wlad doesn't beat Frazier, sorry.

[thewoo]

I'm a big Wlad fan but I don't think he is an ATG (at least not yet).

I don't believe that he would beat any of the four you mentioned.

I don't think that he is an ATG, doesn't mean that he would not beat a lot of them. Just imagine 185 pound jack dempsey next to Wlad. wlad would brutally punish him, ditto for marciano and a whole bunch of the smaller, or less refined ATG's of the past.

[thewoo]

Frazier
Patterson
Marciano
Charles
Walcott
Braddock
Baer

Braddock is not an ATG. He is a journeyman that got one big win and lost the title in his next fight.

[Carlos Primera]

I'm a big Wlad fan but I don't think he is an ATG (at least not yet).

I don't believe that he would beat any of the four you mentioned.
i'm a wlad fan too, and i agree that wlad is not an yet ATG. i just think that wlad beats those guys, based on what we've seen on film. we should'nt let greatness, reputations and accomplishments skewer our objectivity when judging the old timers in matchups against present fighters. i just call it how i see it. jack johnson leaning back from punches might have worked for him back in the day, but if he tries that against wlad he gets his head taken off. i have huge respect for jack dempsey, but wlad KO's him in 1 too.

[Decker]

Wlad doesn't beat Frazier, sorry.:huh Why?
Oscar Bonavena nearly stopped Frazier in their first fight (dropping JF twice in one round), and Goerge F bounced Joe around the ring like he was a bum. And Wlad is what, an underdog vs 205 lb Joe? :lol: :nut

[Carlos Primera]

I don't think that he is an ATG, doesn't mean that he would not beat a lot of them. Just imagine 185 pound jack dempsey next to Wlad. wlad would brutally punish him, ditto for marciano and a whole bunch of the smaller, or less refined ATG's of the past.
:good could'nt have said it better myself.

[Rollo]

Wlad doesn't beat Frazier, sorry.


I know my posts looks as if I am a Wlad-hugger which i´m not. But I think that wlad would stand a good chance against a short sluggin´ guy like Frazier - even though Frazier is no ordinary short guy.

[Shotgun]

None They are ATG for a reason Will Waldo be considered an ATG when he is done Fuck no...

So an all-time great is incapable of losing to anyone that's not an all time great? Wonderful logic right there. I guess Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Muhammad Ali, etc are not ATG's since they all lost to opponents that are not ATG's

[Butch Coolidge]

I'm a "duh jock"(not a math guy) but it seems since Klitschko is pretty much "the champ" of today's heavyweights he is competing against a much, much larger field of competitors than the "ATGs" had to compete against. Consider first that today's population is more numerous than it was during the depression, there are more men of a heavyweight stature around today, more athletes compete in the sport on a professional level since the Iron Curtain opened up. I have a hunch that some of the "bums" Klitschko has defeated would expose some of the "greats". I believe it is possible that the top fighters in today's era of heavyweights are greatly underrated and under appreciated.

Which alpha male wolf would be tougher the alpha male in a pack of 30 or the alpha male wolf in a pack of 120 and the pack of 120 consists of wolves who are larger and less disease prone than the pack of 30 wolves.

I guess one of the many geniuses that visit this board will try to explain it to me but as I said before, my aptitude is more towards bench presses and jumping rope than figurin' shit out.

[Butch Coolidge]

I can't see Roland LaStarza or an even a prime version of Joe Louis going more than 4 rounds with WK.

[Rollo]

So an all-time great is incapable of losing to anyone that's not an all time great? Wonderful logic right there. I guess Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Muhammad Ali, etc are not ATG's since they all lost to opponents that are not ATG's

Yes - and does a win over an ATG count when we are talking about Marciano/Louis or Berbick/Ali?

[cuchulain]

So an all-time great is incapable of losing to anyone that's not an all time great? Wonderful logic right there. I guess Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Muhammad Ali, etc are not ATG's since they all lost to opponents that are not ATG's

To clarify, on a given night, Wlad could beat any boxer, ATG or not.

(Remember , Sanders beat Wlad and Rahman beat Lewis etc.)

Upsets can happen, but if Wlad were to fight Louis, I believe Louis would win 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Same goes for the other guys mentioned (Marciano, Johnson and Dempsey).

[Decker]

I'm a "duh jock"(not a math guy) but it seems since Klitschko is pretty much "the champ" of today's heavyweights he is competing against a much, much larger field of competitors than the "ATGs" had to compete against. Consider first that today's population is more numerous than it was during the depression, there are more men of a heavyweight stature around today, more athletes compete in the sport on a professional level since the Iron Curtain opened up. I have a hunch that some of the "bums" Klitschko has defeated would expose some of the "greats". I believe it is possible that the top fighters in today's era of heavyweights are greatly underrated and under appreciated.

Which alpha male wolf would be tougher the alpha male in a pack of 30 or the alpha male wolf in a pack of 120 and the pack of 120 consists of wolves who are larger and less disease prone than the pack of 30 wolves.

I guess one of the many geniuses that visit this board will try to explain it to me but as I said before, my aptitude is more towards bench presses and jumping rope than figurin' shit out. BC, excellent post. I am a math guy, and believe me that post was too logical for the "HW no good now" parrots :yep I've never seen so much twisting of logic by fans (some of who are smart enough to know better) that don't like the current HW champs - beacuse it doesn't fit their image of what a HW champ should be or look like. :-(

[brooklyn1550]

Rocky Marciano
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
Jersey Joe Walcott
Floyd Patterson

[the_what]

Maybe John Ruiz. But that depends if Ruiz shaves his beard the night of the fight or not.

[cross_trainer]

Robinson, Duran, Armstrong, Greb, and possibly Leonard.

[CHEF]

Agree, with the early posts. Wlad would blow away most, if not all of the CW-small HW (todays standards) HW champs of the past. He'd beat or be very competitive to any HW champ since the 70s.

I also agree. Champs from the past were in the 212-220 range. Thats to small to compete with wlads size, footwork, and brutal jab. Its so hard to compare old to new, but IMO he could beat most if he is on his game

[Rollo]

Maybe John Ruiz. But that depends if Ruiz shaves his beard the night of the fight or not.

I didn´t know that Ruiz was an ATG.

[NoCoolFool?]

I'm a "duh jock"(not a math guy) but it seems since Klitschko is pretty much "the champ" of today's heavyweights he is competing against a much, much larger field of competitors than the "ATGs" had to compete against. Consider first that today's population is more numerous than it was during the depression, there are more men of a heavyweight stature around today, more athletes compete in the sport on a professional level since the Iron Curtain opened up. I have a hunch that some of the "bums" Klitschko has defeated would expose some of the "greats". I believe it is possible that the top fighters in today's era of heavyweights are greatly underrated and under appreciated.

Which alpha male wolf would be tougher the alpha male in a pack of 30 or the alpha male wolf in a pack of 120 and the pack of 120 consists of wolves who are larger and less disease prone than the pack of 30 wolves.

I guess one of the many geniuses that visit this board will try to explain it to me but as I said before, my aptitude is more towards bench presses and jumping rope than figurin' shit out.


Using that same logic, can we say that the greatest jousters are alive today because of the population of today is so much larger than in the middle ages???

I would like to see actually stats of the # of active boxers today vs the # of active boxers in whatever past time frame we are talking about. The number may be closer than you think.

And: Your wolf example is poor as well. And Darwin may disagree with you. Who would you rather fight? 30 infantrymen currently stationed in Afghanistan or 120 infrantryman guarding the Canadian border? (maybe a poor example, but you get my drift...)

[The Whaler]

Robinson, Duran, Armstrong, Greb, and possibly Leonard.

I think Wlad could beat Ricardo Lopez.

[The Whaler]

I didn´t know that Ruiz was an ATG.

He's got enough to possibly beat Wlad.

[cross_trainer]

I think Wlad could beat Ricardo Lopez.

I don't know...Lopez was a crafty little guy.

[cross_trainer]

He's got enough to possibly beat Wlad.

And since Wlad is already an all time great, and can beat every other all time great, Ruiz must therefore be one as well.

[Rollo]

He's got enough to possibly beat Wlad.


Yeah - maybe he´d out-hug him!:yep

[the_what]

I didn´t know that Ruiz was an ATG.

Then you dont know boxing my friend. The great Bearded Warrior is a top 20 HW.

[Rollo]

Then you dont know boxing my friend. The great Bearded Warrior is a top 20 HW.

All time?

[Decker]

I don't know...Lopez was a crafty little guy. CT we've sparred a few times on similar threads. I don't think you're a hater, just a guy that regards the past (HW) boxers with too much fondness. Now get serious, Wlad would destroy most past HW champs, and would beat most 1970s to date guys. LL would destroy or be very competitive vs any HW champ from 1900-2000+ ... and Wlad could certainly compete w/LL. :good

Regarding Ruiz
He's got enough to possibly beat Wlad. C'mon Whale, you can troll better than that. :p

[cross_trainer]

CT we've sparred a few times on similar threads. I don't think you're a hater, just a guy that regards the past (HW) boxers with too much fondness.

Perhaps. But it comes from looking at the evidence, rather than blinding bias. Earlier in my posting career, I was convinced that today's physically superior heavyweights would crush guys like Liston.

Now get serious, Wlad would destroy most past HW champs, and would beat most 1970s to date guys.

Perhaps with some of the past heavyweight champions you're correct. But 70's heavies seem to be a few cuts above today's guys with respect to experience, skill, and stamina. A couple mid-late 70's guys recently proved it by coming back in the 90's (Foreman and Holmes).

LL would destroy or be very competitive vs any HW champ from 1900-2000+ ...

Of course. He is an all time great, and proved it many times.


and Wlad could certainly compete w/LL. :good

Certainly. Top contenders of most eras are usually pretty competitive against ATG's.

[cross_trainer]

None, he's an overrated BUM with no chin fighting in the worst HW Division era ever!

The early 30's were worse. Early 80's weren't a goldmine of talent either.

[Mrvooh]

Perhaps. But it comes from looking at the evidence, rather than blinding bias. Earlier in my posting career, I was convinced that today's physically superior heavyweights would crush guys like Liston.



Perhaps with some of the past heavyweight champions you're correct. But 70's heavies seem to be a few cuts above today's guys with respect to experience, skill, and stamina. A couple mid-late 70's guys recently proved it by coming back in the 90's (Foreman and Holmes).



Of course. He is an all time great, and proved it many times.



Certainly. Top contenders of most eras are usually pretty competitive against ATG's. I believe if Dempsey/Johnson/Corbet/Marciano/Liston/Louis, we're born in this generation= they'd be bigger and stronger than they were.

[Hank]

None

[cross_trainer]

I believe if Dempsey/Johnson/Corbet/Marciano/Liston/Louis, we're born in this generation= they'd be bigger and stronger than they were.

Probably, though the increase in size would vary from fighter to fighter. But they would lack some of the top-notch experience that they received during their primes. The optimal mixture would be a 1930's coach with modern training.

[MagnificentMatt]

Wlad would kill many heavyweight ATGs... So many people pre 60s never even saw someone past 6'4..

That and his style is pretty impressive for a big man, especially if you compare him to the bigger heavies of those days.

Not to mention a lot of the big punches from back in the day probably couldnt KO Wlad very easily with a couple pillows on there hands, despite how weak his chin may be. ;-)

[Orishaman]

Well...I don't think he would since I never would put Vladdy on any HW ATG list...what has he accomplished to deserved been put on an ATG list.....nothing

[Butch Coolidge]

I can care less about Tiger woods and your golf analogy, anyone that spends enough time applying them selves to hitting a ball in a hole can be good regardless of body type


Bad example because the population of jousters is probably less and I can't say that I know of any jousting tournaments.

[Butch Coolidge]

And: Your wolf example is poor as well. And Darwin may disagree with you. Who would you rather fight? 30 infantrymen currently stationed in Afghanistan or 120 infrantryman guarding the Canadian border? (maybe a poor example, but you get my drift...)


I think Darwin's theory supports my reasoning. Survival of the fittest so the most fit individual of large population would reasonably be the most fit individual of a small population. You have it backwards.

[El Bombasto]

Marciano
Frazier
Ali, yeah I know this looks stupid, but its a shitty style matchup for Ali
Corbett
Johnson
Williard
Spinks
Patterson
Liston
Tunney

Guys I favor to beat Wladimir

HolyField
Dempsey, only pre Liston guy I think could be competitive today, Williard is too early, too much to specualte on
Foreman
Lewis
Tyson

:good I'd that's about right

[Butch Coolidge]

Klitschko's offense makes him dangerous for anybody and I think a fighters with legendary toughness never took a punch from somebody like a modern heavyweight, at least one of the big punchers. I think Klitschko would expose a large percentage of the ATGs.

[El Bombasto]

Before the senior citizens on this board get their Depends bunched-up; it should be pointed out that just because you can expect Klitschko to beat most pre 1980s fighters head-to-head, that does not mean that he's a greater boxer than they were. As they accomplished more in their eras than he has in his, which is the only rational way to measure a fighter's 'greatness'

[tays001]

this is dumb of course he could beat alot of those guyz doesn't mean he's greater then them

[NoCoolFool?]

Bad example because the population of jousters is probably less and I can't say that I know of any jousting tournaments.

My point was that boxing is a dying sport (arguably). The amount of current boxers is not necesarily greater just because there is a larger population.

[NoCoolFool?]

I think Darwin's theory supports my reasoning. Survival of the fittest so the most fit individual of large population would reasonably be the most fit individual of a small population. You have it backwards.

Yes, you're right as long as you are talking of the fittest individual of the two eras...its not necesarily correct, but reasonably.

Klitschko vs any ATG? Yes, he has a chance with anybody. This is irrelevant to his potential long-term chances of being placed in the same class.

[El Bombasto]

Yes, you're right as long as you are talking of the fittest individual of the two eras...its not necesarily correct, but reasonably.

Klitschko vs any ATG? Yes, he has a chance with anybody. This is irrelevant to his potential long-term chances of being placed in the same class.

regardless of whatever skill and talent he may have, there are too many interests working against eachother in the heavyweight division today. the chances of klit doing anything significant in this environment are pretty slim. he will most like be remembered as a good boxer who was part of the the eastern euro take over of the heavyweight division, and nothing more than that

[Butch Coolidge]

My point was that boxing is a dying sport (arguably). The amount of current boxers is not necesarily greater just because there is a larger population.

But the amount of professional heavyweight boxers are most likely much higher today than ever before. Think about it; the global population is much bigger, there are more people of heavyweight stature now than during the good old days, there are more countries e.g. Russia, Kazahkstan, Ukraine et al that have allowed their citizens to box professionally so it would be reasonable to presume there is a greater number of professional boxer today than during the golden age. I think the same mathematic principle also is why Johnny Weismueller and Jesse Owen's record times aren't impressive as they were back then. In fact, I remember about twenty years ago there was a high school kid in track who broke Jesse Owen's record. The same thing probably applies to boxing it's just since boxing isn't measured with a stopwatch we have to extrapolate how good a fighter is from his records and records in boxing are often very misleading and they become even more misleading when one considers that the whole level of talent in boxing probably elevated itself above the talent of bygone days. Boxing is the sport where one single contest could completely alter everyone's perception of who is great and who is not great. Tyson was a fearsome force until Buster and then he was once again a fearsome force who was suppose to flatten a supposedly outgunned and over-the-hill Holyfield. Things turned around. The most recent example is Jermain Taylor and Kelly Pavlik. Taylor was the impressive bullgoose looney until Pavlik flatweeded him and now Pavlik has reached demigod status but what if Taylor gets his rematch and manages to land that one extra punch he needed to KO Pavlik in the second round? Then Pavlik becomes a one hit wonder in the eyes of many although that's really not the case at all. The thing is the All Time Greats do not have to compete vs today's fighters and myths tend to overshadow reality but I think after one considers the numbers involved in the competitive sports the contemporary athletes in boxing don't get the recognition they deserve. What's more precious one in a thousand or one in a million?

[brooklyn1550]

A matchup that stirs up a lot of debate is Klitschko vs. Holmes

[LennoxGOAT]

Wlad is too big and too strong for every heavy but Foreman, Lewis, and Ali. But I think he is way too technical for Foreman.

Lewis and Ali are the only two I would bet against Wlad.

[Decker]

Yes, you're right as long as you are talking of the fittest individual of the two eras...its not necesarily correct, but reasonably.

Klitschko vs any ATG? Yes, he has a chance with anybody. This is irrelevant to his potential long-term chances of being placed in the same class. Why is it irrelavant? :nut Why not just say that Ali's 2-1 record vs lil Joe Frazier (by todays HW standards) is irrelevant? Maybe Ali's inability to soundly defeat Norton in 3 fights is relevant. There is nothing Wlad could do to get recognition among the haters. He could beat Peter in a return, beat 4 other top HWs soundly, and the naysayers will just come back w/their "HW no good now" chant. I've learned that much reading ESB for nearly 4 years. :-(

Butch Coolidge's posts explain it in cold logic, but you can't reason with people that have such strong biases, dislikes, hate, or whatever you want to call it.

Jouster's??? :rofl sheesh, think before you post man. Almost nobody is jousting today. If the same (even less) percentage of people were jousting now as they were in the middle ages, the top jousters would be the ones we'd be seeing today !

As others have noted the politics and split belts also will be held against Wlad and other fighters of this era - especially by the older guard and younger fans who have an irrational dislike (race, nationality, etc) of a current champ. Slowly, but surely, fans will change their perceptions.

[Decker]

Wlad is too big and too strong for every heavy but Foreman, Lewis, and Ali. But I think he is way too technical for Foreman.

Lewis and Ali are the only two I would bet against Wlad. Agree re Foreman & Lewis. I think he could beat Ali - as could others on a good nite (Tyson at/near his peak for example, Lewis).

[NoCoolFool?]

Why is it irrelavant? :nut Why not just say that Ali's 2-1 record vs lil Joe Frazier (by todays HW standards) is irrelevant? Maybe Ali's inability to soundly defeat Norton in 3 fights is relevant. There is nothing Wlad could do to get recognition among the haters. He could beat Peter in a return, beat 4 other top HWs soundly, and the naysayers will just come back w/their "HW no good now" chant. I've learned that much reading ESB for nearly 4 years. :-(

Its irrelevant because a boxer's greatest is not defined on how he would perform against his contemporaries of a different time (although it is fun to argue at times). A boxer's greatness is defined by what he has actually done during his reign. Klitschko better get his act in gear (admittedly, prob. no fault of his own that the necessary big fight aren't being made) and start staking his claim or nobody will care if he could have been an ATG. Just like nobody (I hope) has Vitali or Ibeabutchie in their ATG list.

Jouster's??? :rofl sheesh, think before you post man. Almost nobody is jousting today. If the same (even less) percentage of people were jousting now as they were in the middle ages, the top jousters would be the ones we'd be seeing today !

yea, yea...I was trying to find a sport that has dropped in popularity over time..thats all I came up with.
The fact is the current larger population does not necessarily mean the better boxers are alive today (and talking of just heavyweights, I believe they definitely are not if you look at just skill i.e. take away their sheer strength and size). Are there more boxers today? Perhaps. I don't know. Can the current Heavyweights beat past greats? Perhaps. Quite likely in fact. Fun to argue. But irrelevant. Just because I think a '07 Klitschko can beat a '70 Frazier doesn't make Klit a more skilled boxer, or a more exciting boxer, or a better achiever or one that is on my ATG list.

[Stinky gloves]

What do you think? (All Time Great at HW)

Anyone?

Agree he would beat anyone.

[Hrak]

he would beat:
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Rocky Marciano
Ken Norton
Larry Holmes
Michael Spinks
Floyd Patterson
Riddick Bowe <questionable all time great, but still impressive in his prime.

***these are the greats im certain he would beat, other guys like Lewis, Holyfield and Tyson are 40-60 splits, 40 being Wlads chance of winning.

***Im certain that Foreman would beat Wlad, Ali however would have some difficulty, but id favor him via 65-35 split.

[Farmboxer]

Vladimir Klitschko would beat them all, no doubt about it. Why do you think there is so much bias against him? He is that good. Anyone who knows any thing about boxing should know such, but they are in denial.

[Dekkers]

I'd pick over Wlad at their best off the top of my head, not necessarily all greats. Reasons differ, some are strong guys who get to Wlad becuse of their size, power and inside punches (Bowe take a lot of punshment but would finish Wlad inside, Lewis would utilise his uppercut).

Some take Wlad into deep water with their toughness, or elusiveness and end the fight their with solid power and boxing ability, Ali would cut open that nasty scar tissue Wlad has round his face with his jab. Some are just extremely fast punchers, with toughness or elusiveness, who'd be able to swarm effectively and early.

Tyson
Bowe
Lewis
Dempsey
Ibeabuchi
Ali
Liston
Mercer
Holmes

Closer fights, perhaps they are lesser fighters who match up well style wise with Wlad or are greater fighters who match up poorly;

Herbie Hide; bad chin, but great, speedy puncher, if he lands hard, fast and first he's a great chance.

Holyfield
Moorer; Questionable chin, but a southpaw with excellent skill, and a fantastic punch, dangerous and hard to put away when motivated.

Foreman; Crude, but a great puncher who knows how to cut off the ring.

Louis; Huge puncher and skilled, just feel Wlad is capable of putting him way at the same time, as well as having the size and jab to trouble him,

Frazier; Needs a few rounds to get the motor running, he's lucky Wlads' a slow starter, that makes the fight more interesting since he can get himself into gear.

Wlad beats the following more often than not imo;


Spinks
Marciano
Charles
Patterson
Braddock
Tua; Always a punchers chance, but Wlad can play it safe.
Willard
Briggs; ...well he was lineal.

[He Hate Me]

None They are ATG for a reason Will Waldo be considered an ATG when he is done Fuck no...

good point

[The Funny Man 7]

Jeffries

[McGrain]

Braddock is not an ATG. He is a journeyman that got one big win and lost the title in his next fight.

His story is about a hundred times more complex than that. If you're interested you should look into it. If not, you should keep your mouth of it.

[McGrain]

Rocky Marciano
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
Jersey Joe Walcott
Floyd Patterson

This is about right although I give Walcott a half a chance.

[McGrain]

I also agree. Champs from the past were in the 212-220 range. Thats to small to compete with wlads size, footwork, and brutal jab. Its so hard to compare old to new, but IMO he could beat most if he is on his game

So what enormous advantage does Vlad have over the 213lb Liston?

Power? - nope.

Composite punching? - nope.

Stength? - nope.

[Fighting Weight]

So what enormous advantage does Vlad have over the 213lb Liston?

Power? - nope.

Composite punching? - nope.

Stength? - nope.

WALD has height, haircut and tough brother advantages too, so he'd KO this fool in 1 round :nut

[brownshell]

Take away the size advantage and just go on skill and heart, chin. Vlad not even a top 100 HW.

[knockout]

a wash up jones and a wash up tyson.

[cross_trainer]

I'd pick over Wlad at their best off the top of my head, not necessarily all greats. Reasons differ, some are strong guys who get to Wlad becuse of their size, power and inside punches (Bowe take a lot of punshment but would finish Wlad inside, Lewis would utilise his uppercut).

Some take Wlad into deep water with their toughness, or elusiveness and end the fight their with solid power and boxing ability, Ali would cut open that nasty scar tissue Wlad has round his face with his jab. Some are just extremely fast punchers, with toughness or elusiveness, who'd be able to swarm effectively and early.

Tyson
Bowe
Lewis
Dempsey
Ibeabuchi
Ali
Liston
Mercer
Holmes

Closer fights, perhaps they are lesser fighters who match up well style wise with Wlad or are greater fighters who match up poorly;

Herbie Hide; bad chin, but great, speedy puncher, if he lands hard, fast and first he's a great chance.

Holyfield
Moorer; Questionable chin, but a southpaw with excellent skill, and a fantastic punch, dangerous and hard to put away when motivated.

Foreman; Crude, but a great puncher who knows how to cut off the ring.

Louis; Huge puncher and skilled, just feel Wlad is capable of putting him way at the same time, as well as having the size and jab to trouble him,

Frazier; Needs a few rounds to get the motor running, he's lucky Wlads' a slow starter, that makes the fight more interesting since he can get himself into gear.

Wlad beats the following more often than not imo;


Spinks
Marciano
Charles
Patterson
Braddock
Tua; Always a punchers chance, but Wlad can play it safe.
Willard
Briggs; ...well he was lineal.

Surely if the weak-chinned, fast-handed but relatively small Herbie Hide stands a 50-50 chance against Wlad, then Patterson (who fits the Tyson mould fairly well, and was faster if anything) would as well?

[BewareofDawg]

Wlad doesn't beat Frazier, sorry.
Yes he would've. :good

[BewareofDawg]

WALD has height, haircut and tough brother advantages too, so he'd KO this fool in 1 round :nut
:rofl

[Mrvooh]

How many of the future Heavyweight champs, say 60 years from now, will Wlad beat in a time warp match? They'll be bigger stronger and faster. So just like all the pre-1970 guys Wlad will not stand a chance. Exactly...but for their size they are maybe better

[Mrvooh]

None They are ATG for a reason Will Waldo be considered an ATG when he is done Fuck no... Being a Wlad fan, I kinda hate to say it, but you make a good pernt ( point ) :patsch

[Muchmoore]

:huh Why?
Oscar Bonavena nearly stopped Frazier in their first fight (dropping JF twice in one round), and Goerge F bounced Joe around the ring like he was a bum. And Wlad is what, an underdog vs 205 lb Joe? :lol: :nut

And Ross Purrity a guy who wasn't half of Bonavena or Foreman knocked out Wlad.

[box03]

If Wlad was to fight most of the heavywieght ATGs his weak chin would be more exposed than Brittany Spears pussy, fighters like Dempsy, Marciano, and Johnson were a hell of alot tougher mentally than Wlad. How in the hell could Wlad beat a guy like Dempsey who was a pressure fighter, and had enough pop in his jab to knock Wlad down. Size matters but not that much, I will take a guy whos undersized but mentally strong over a guy whos big and not mentally strong like Wlad.

[Asterion]

I think Wlad would beat Gene Tunney and Ezzard Charles, who are Top30 heavyweights of all time. Also Floyd Patterson, who is a Top15 heavyweight of all time.

[Drew101]

Let's see...

Patterson
Charles
Tunney
Tyson (50/50)
Corbett
Johnson (50/50)

Wouldn't rule him out against the three great swarmers, either.:D

[McGrain]

WALD has height, haircut and tough brother advantages too, so he'd KO this fool in 1 round :nut


:lol:


Yeah, forgot.!

[box03]

Let's see...

Patterson
Charles
Tunney
Tyson (50/50)
Corbett
Johnson (50/50)

Wouldn't rule him out against the three great swarmers, either.:D 50/50 with a prime Tyson :rofl He also has a weaker chin then anyone on this list besides Patterson, there is no way in hell Wlad would beat a prime Tyson, one Tyson left hook and Wlad will have a panic attack and his glass jaw will shatter.

[McGrain]

I don't know about that. I wouldn't be too quick to say Liston was physically stronger than wlad.

No, I wouldn't say that either - there is so little in it, it's not worth arguing about. They are both as strong as to be as strong as humans could be.

If it came down to a test of strength, on the inside it would be more about timing, generalship and, most of all balance. Technical aspects of movement, basically.

[Drew101]

50/50 with a prime Tyson :rofl He also has a weaker chin then anyone on this list besides Patterson, there is no way in hell Wlad would beat a prime Tyson, one Tyson left hook and Wlad will have a panic attack and his glass jaw will shatter.

Yeah...but if Douglas was able to keep him on the business end of his jab, then Wlad could as well. There's always the possibility that Wlad gets caught, though, and if that happens, then it's goodnight Wlad.

[Fighting Weight]

Tyson (50/50)


:huh :huh :huh

Lets see, one one side we've got a tall, powerful guy that relies mostly on his jab to keep guys off him...he's failed to keep off him Sanders, Purrity and Brewster, none of which are what you'd call exceptional fighters, none of which were what you'd call particularly fast either and it has to be said none of them are exceptional KO artists. He's also been down more often than a cheap Thai whore whilst fighting average competition.

On the other side you have prime Mike Tyson. Yeah, I can see how WALD would win that one :admin

[box03]

:huh :huh :huh

Lets see, one one side we've got a tall, powerful guy that relies mostly on his jab to keep guys off him...he's failed to keep off him Sanders, Purrity and Brewster, none of which are what you'd call exceptional fighters, none of which were what you'd call particularly fast either and it has to be said none of them are exceptional KO artists. He's also been down more often than a cheap Thai whore whilst fighting average competition.

On the other side you have prime Mike Tyson. Yeah, I can see how WALD would win that one :admin My thoughts exactly, there should be a hall of fame at ESB for dumb posts, this one might make the top 10 or the one I heard yesterday a poster said that the Kessler/Calzaghe is the fight of the century.:shock:

[rydersonthestorm]

Bloody hell how anyone can pick wlad over foreman i don't know, how would wlad beat foreman??

[Fighting Weight]

Yeah...but if Douglas was able to keep him on the business end of his jab, then Wlad could as well. There's always the possibility that Wlad gets caught, though, and if that happens, then it's goodnight Wlad.

Douglas kept a crappy version of Tyson off him, and still nearly got his head taken off. I doubt WALD would have survived even against that version of Tyson.

Tyson catching WALD with a shot isn't a possibility, it's a definate. Even a 2003 Tyson would have stood a chance - a 1988 Tyson would have WALD out of there inside a round most likely.

[Fighting Weight]

Bloody hell how anyone can pick wlad over foreman i don't know, how would wlad beat foreman??

Damn I missed that one :lol: :lol: :lol:

Struggling to think of how WALD could possibly win that one too.....no he couldn't, not in a million years.

[Fighting Weight]

My thoughts exactly, there should be a hall of fame at ESB for dumb posts, this one might make the top 10 or the one I heard yesterday a poster said that the Kessler/Calzaghe is the fight of the century.:shock:

Well it is only 2007 so maybe that's what they meant? Calzaghe actually fighting a live opponent is enough to send the fanatics into overdrive though.

As for the hall of fame of dumb posts you could always start a Klitschko fan quote of the week thread, there hasn't been one for a while :lol:

If 2smart turns up in this thread at some point I'm sure we'll have all the material we need.

[box03]

Well it is only 2007 so maybe that's what they meant? Calzaghe actually fighting a live opponent is enough to send the fanatics into overdrive though.

As for the hall of fame of dumb posts you could always start a Klitschko fan quote of the week thread, there hasn't been one for a while :lol:

If 2smart turns up in this thread at some point I'm sure we'll have all the material we need. Yeah nominating the dumbest posts of the week would be fun, I think the most delusional post ever is when Vicious boxer said he would beat Pavlik in a boxing match, thats number 1 in my book. I understand the Calzaghe/Kessler is a great fight in all, but its not even the best fight of the year, that title goes to Mayweather/Hatton.

[Fighting Weight]

Yeah nominating the dumbest posts of the week would be fun, I think the most delusional post ever is when Vicious boxer said he would beat Pavlik in a boxing match, thats number 1 in my book. I understand the Calzaghe/Kessler is a great fight in all, but its not even the best fight of the year, that title goes to Mayweather/Hatton.

That still doesn't top 2smart saying WALD has a better chin than Holyfield :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[Boro chris]

I believe if Dempsey/Johnson/Corbet/Marciano/Liston/Louis, we're born in this generation= they'd be bigger and stronger than they were.

Or fighting as cruisers?
Wlad could probably beat many of the old atg's, but so what?
were talking about fighters who were effectively in a different weight division.

[box03]

That still doesn't top 2smart saying WALD has a better chin than Holyfield :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl Yeah thats Wlad loving on a whole new level.

[Boro chris]

Let's see...

Patterson
Charles
Tunney
Tyson (50/50)
Corbett
Johnson (50/50)

Wouldn't rule him out against the three great swarmers, either.:D

My god Tyson would bumfuck him!!
He'd probably beat him in a boxing match as well!:good

Klit vs

Frazier-Late stoppage if Joe can get past the first couple of rounds. Good matchup im.
Ali-tko by 10. Ali would find this tricky imo, but Wlad is to vulnreble.
Holmes- tko 6. Holmes matches up well except for power. He's superior in every other dept.
Tyson- Mismatch. Tyson by brutal anal invasion sometime before they get in the ring!
Holyfield- Holy close UD.

I dont hate Wlad. He's a talented fighter with noticable weaknesses.
Theres no shame in loosing to atg heavy's who are roughly the same sise as you are. As such I give him a 50/50 chance against Joe Louis.

P.S. Cant believe I forgot this match up. (must be all that absinthe:huh)
Lewis- See Andrew Golota. Lewis seemed to have a knack for sniffing out weakness!

[Drew101]

:huh :huh :huh

Lets see, one one side we've got a tall, powerful guy that relies mostly on his jab to keep guys off him...he's failed to keep off him Sanders, Purrity and Brewster, none of which are what you'd call exceptional fighters, none of which were what you'd call particularly fast either and it has to be said none of them are exceptional KO artists. He's also been down more often than a cheap Thai whore whilst fighting average competition.

On the other side you have prime Mike Tyson. Yeah, I can see how WALD would win that one :admin

Yeah...but, Tyson was still prime when he fought Douglas. Maybe not at his absolute peak, but close enough to it that it gives me an adequate gauge on how other tall boxers with better than average jabs would have done in similar circumstances.

But, then again...:D

I think a prime Ali would own Tyson...same with prime Lewis...and to a lesser extant prime Holmes and prime Liston. I think Holyfield beats Tyson every time they fight...twice on Sundays. I think Wlad, at his very best, with Manny in the corner, might be able to trouble Tyson with his jab and power. If he goes into huggy bear when Tyson gets close, then he's got a shot of winning.

Edit: I realize that 50/50 is probably too great of a ratio...but, against the most recent greats, I say Wlad still has best chance against Tyson than the others.

[Decker]

Its irrelevant because a boxer's greatest is not defined on how he would perform against his contemporaries of a different time (although it is fun to argue at times). A boxer's greatness is defined by what he has actually done during his reign. Klitschko better get his act in gear (admittedly, prob. no fault of his own that the necessary big fight aren't being made) and start staking his claim or nobody will care if he could have been an ATG. Just like nobody (I hope) has Vitali or Ibeabutchie in their ATG list. Ok NCF, I left shortly after making my last few posts. Here you raise a key issue about these debates. What criteria are you using to rank these fighters or estimate their h2h chances? There's mainly 3 ways to go (or some combo of these ways) 1. h2h in a time machine - no height/weight adjustment (the 220# Dempsey, etc); 2. performance vs his peers (this is what you refer to above); 3. p4p (p=pound) this is usually used to compare fighters of different weight classes, but can be used w/HWs since they have weighed from 160+ to unlimited going back over 100 years. My (and most posters here) comments about Wlad are using criteria #1.

yea, yea...I was trying to find a sport that has dropped in popularity over time..thats all I came up with.
The fact is the current larger population does not necessarily mean the better boxers are alive today (and talking of just heavyweights, I believe they definitely are not if you look at just skill i.e. take away their sheer strength and size). A debateable point.

Are there more boxers today? Perhaps. I don't know. Can the current Heavyweights beat past greats? Perhaps. Quite likely in fact. Fun to argue. But irrelevant. Just because I think a '07 Klitschko can beat a '70 Frazier doesn't make Klit a more skilled boxer, or a more exciting boxer, or a better achiever or one that is on my ATG list.Joe had tremendous heart, as do less skilled fighters. I'd rank Joe's "heart" above Lewis, Wlad, and many others. But Joe would lose to most top modern HWs - as would most others.

[Decker]

So what enormous advantage does Vlad have over the 213lb Liston?

Power? - nope.

Composite punching? - nope.

Stength? - nope. Everything except their respective chins. And don't think big (in his era, not today) Sonny had such a chin edge. Sonny mostly faught CWs. Sure he looked strong on the inside vs Floyd at a buck 95. Think he'd push around an athletic near 250# man like that? I don't. You should see the big bear win a boring UD vs Eddie Machen*, a good, slick small HW (CW today). Wlad's win over the brutish Peter and destruction of the same sized Austin in 2 was much more impressive. :cool:

* A guy who was blown out by the glass jawed Ingo - who did have a damn good right.

[Fighting Weight]

Yeah...but, Tyson was still prime when he fought Douglas. Maybe not at his absolute peak, but close enough to it that it gives me an adequate gauge on how other tall boxers with better than average jabs would have done in similar circumstances.

But, then again...:D

I think a prime Ali would own Tyson...same with prime Lewis...and to a lesser extant prime Holmes and prime Liston. I think Holyfield beats Tyson every time they fight...twice on Sundays. I think Wlad, at his very best, with Manny in the corner, might be able to trouble Tyson with his jab and power. If he goes into huggy bear when Tyson gets close, then he's got a shot of winning.

Edit: I realize that 50/50 is probably too great of a ratio...but, against the most recent greats, I say Wlad still has best chance against Tyson than the others.

OK fair enough I can't argue with the fact that Tyson was prime in age when he fought Douglas, and if that's the case then you can't argue that WALDO was prime in age when he fought Sanders and Brewster (enough of this horseshit about him being prime now, it's bullshit)

Now ask yourself who looked worse, Tyson V Douglas, or WALDO V Sanders/Brewster?

I believe that Holyfield V Tyson after 1995 is a definate win for Holy, but I think a 1988 Tyson takes any version of Holyfield, back then the kid was just a freak of nature.

Agree with the prime Ali though, prime Ali owns every heavy that ever laced up the gloves. All these Klit-huggers only ever use the post-layoff Ali when they talk about WALD and VITLAY beating Ali. Prime Ali, no-one comes close.

[Fighting Weight]

Everything except their respective chins. And don't think big (in his era, not today) Sonny had such a chin edge. Sonny mostly faught CWs. Sure he looked strong on the inside vs Floyd at a buck 95. Think he'd push around an athletic near 250# man like that? I don't. You should see the big bear win a boring UD vs Eddie Machen*, a good, slick small HW (CW today). Wlad's win over the brutish Peter and destruction of the same sized Austin in 2 was much more impressive. :cool:

* A guy who was blown out by the glass jawed Ingo - who did have a damn good right.

Sorry but WALD beating Austin only looked impressive to the huggers. Bringing up Austin in any argument about how WALD would cope with ATG's is just wrong.

[Jack]

My god Tyson would bumfuck him!!
He'd probably beat him in a boxing match as well!:good
No chance at all. Tyson wasn't a good boxer, and even though I;m a fan of Klitschko, it should be clear to even his haters that he is an exceptional boxer.

If Tyson is going to beat Klitschko, he will stop him. The chances of Tyson outboxing Klitschko are slim to none.

It;s just a bad fight for Tyson. as seen in the Bonecrusher fight, he struggled against big boxers. Smith used his jab and walked away from him th whole fight. He set the blueprint on how to beat Tyson, which Douglas followed.

The Douglas fight is worth mentioning too, because the tactis Buster used were similar to the ones Klitschko has perfected. Stiff jab, quick one-two combos, avoid confrontation and fight on the backfoot.

I know your reply will be "Tyson wasn't at his bets then", and that's fair enough, but I do think what Klitschko has gives Tyson problems.

And obviously it's the other way around too. I don't know how well Klitschko would cope with a relentless beats like Iron Mike, but I doubt it would be too good. Tyson was ferocious and that's probably Klitschko's weakness. If he is allowed to box, Klitschko will do fantastically. if he is drawn into a fight, his mental weaknesses and fairly poor chin come into play.

If Tyson boxes, he loses.
If Klitschko fights, he loses.

[Dekkers]

Surely if the weak-chinned, fast-handed but relatively small Herbie Hide stands a 50-50 chance against Wlad, then Patterson (who fits the Tyson mould fairly well, and was faster if anything) would as well?

Actually I think Pattersons problem with this fight is his peekaboo style, and the fact he'll wade in with hooks rather than straight punches. I think timing and closing the distance is extremely important against Wlad with fighters that have the questionable punching resistance of Hide and Patterson.

[Decker]

And Ross Purrity a guy who wasn't half of Bonavena or Foreman knocked out Wlad. Ross was a big, durable 250# HW. If you come in too light and punch yourself out, you can lose to a Purrity. Ron Stander (a good crude slugger) stopped Shavers. Was Shavers not a top fighter? Why the "hate" on Ross - he could have given fits and beaten most of the small HWs of the past. Ringo being a good candidate ! :yep Except for very early in his career, he was only stopped once - by bro Vitali. No shame in that. :good

[Decker]

Sorry but WALD beating Austin only looked impressive to the huggers. Bringing up Austin in any argument about how WALD would cope with ATG's is just wrong. Or not impressive to the haters :yep Anyway I see you made your comedic appearance after I left this topic early in the dead of nite. You and box03 had a long, lovely duet singing your fav song "HW no good now". :nut :lol:

[box03]

Or not impressive to the haters :yep Anyway I see you made your comedic appearance after I left this topic early in the dead of nite. You and box03 had a long, lovely duet singing your fav song "HW no good now". :nut :lol: We certainly had a few choice words to say about the extremely weak heavywieght division, with gay Wlad leading the charge. You cant tell me the division isnt weak!

[Fighting Weight]

Or not impressive to the haters :yep Anyway I see you made your comedic appearance after I left this topic early in the dead of nite. You and box03 had a long, lovely duet singing your fav song "HW no good now". :nut :lol:

Yep, night night WALDO lover :roll:

Comedic? I dare you to prove it.

[Decker]

Yep, night night WALDO lover :roll:
Who?

Comedic? I dare you to prove it.Proof? :think Your posts are out there for all of us to "enjoy" :roll: :yep

[Rock0052]

One name that jumps out is Ken Norton.

[MSTR]

i'm a wlad fan too, and i agree that wlad is not an yet ATG. i just think that wlad beats those guys, based on what we've seen on film. we should'nt let greatness, reputations and accomplishments skewer our objectivity when judging the old timers in matchups against present fighters. i just call it how i see it. jack johnson leaning back from punches might have worked for him back in the day, but if he tries that against wlad he gets his head taken off. i have huge respect for jack dempsey, but wlad KO's him in 1 too.
Great post. Couldn't agree more.

[Butch Coolidge]

We certainly had a few choice words to say about the extremely weak heavywieght division, with gay Wlad leading the charge. You cant tell me the division isnt weak!

People are saying today's heavyweights are crap but they have been saying that for about thirty something years now maybe longer. Marciano's era, Jim Braddock's era, Michael Spinks' era were much crappier than this one.

[box03]

People are saying today's heavyweights are crap but they have been saying that for about thirty something years now maybe longer. Marciano's era, Jim Braddock's era, Michael Spinks' era were much crappier than this one. There was a Michael spinks era? If it was it oly lasted for what 2 or 3 years thats not an era, it was time in between Holmes and Tyson 85-88. As far as people saying Marciano's era was weak, at least at that time the average american male knew who the champ was. I bet if you go out tomorrow night to a bar and ask people who the champ is I bet most people will say Holyfield or Lewis still, you might get 1 out 10 that will say Wlad. Face it the division is weak, and has been for a while now.

[Dekkers]

Great post. Couldn't agree more.

To me Dempsey actually matches up really well with Wlad, Dempsey is extremely fast, aggressive, with excellent head movement, quick on his feet and a powerful, fast swarming combination puncher, until i'm convinced Wlad doesn't flinch under fire I wouldn't pick against Dempsey... that's probably one of Wlads' greater problems, his mental weaknesses, i've seen a lot of him in the past and whilst these things have improved, i'm not convinced these 'problems' are entirely behind Wlad.

[cross_trainer]

Actually I think Pattersons problem with this fight is his peekaboo style, and the fact he'll wade in with hooks rather than straight punches. I think timing and closing the distance is extremely important against Wlad with fighters that have the questionable punching resistance of Hide and Patterson.

Perhaps, but Patterson's leaping hook is still significantly faster than any punch in Wlad's arsenal. Moreover (unlike Liston) Wlad lacks the uppercut to really rip into Patterson's peekaboo guard. His straight punches are less advantageous against Patterson's style of defense.

[cross_trainer]

To me Dempsey actually matches up really well with Wlad, Dempsey is extremely fast, aggressive, with excellent head movement, quick on his feet and a powerful, fast swarming combination puncher, until i'm convinced Wlad doesn't flinch under fire I wouldn't pick against Dempsey... that's probably one of Wlads' greater problems, his mental weaknesses, i've seen a lot of him in the past and whilst these things have improved, i'm not convinced these 'problems' are entirely behind Wlad.

Patterson is very similar (except for chin) to Dempsey in terms of his approach. He sometimes boxed a bit more than Dempsey was wont to do, but his approach was of a kin.

[Dekkers]

Patterson is very similar (except for chin) to Dempsey in terms of his approach. He sometimes boxed a bit more than Dempsey was wont to do, but his approach was of a kin.
I think aggression, and toughness have greater dividends than trying to box with Wladimir, also I think Dempsey was a bit more 'fearless' than Patterson, Patterson would feel intimidated by Wladimir (and his power).

[cross_trainer]

I think aggression, and toughness have greater dividends than trying to box with Wladimir, also I think Dempsey was a bit more 'fearless' than Patterson, Patterson would feel intimidated by Wladimir (and his power).

True, but Patterson (despite the occasional boxing) did have an innate aggression. His evasiveness was extremely impressive, he worked the body consistently, and his hands were probably faster than Dempsey's. One other factor in his favor is the same one that wouldn't seem important at first--his mobility. Wlad likes to get "set" when he's attacking you, and a moving target like Patterson would force him to fight on the move, where he's prone to making more errors. It's the same weakness that might cause him trouble against Quarry. That, and Floyd hits a lot harder than most give him credit for.

Wlad's pawing jab and stationary one-two style is the sort of thing Patterson liked. A less mobile Byrd managed to get inside on Klitschko when he fought using a "peekaboo", but he was too flatfooted, too one-way, and couldn't do any damage.

That being said, Dempsey does have a better chance than Patterson. But Patterson still has an extremely good one.

[Toopretty]

Well technically Wlad is like bigger then most of the old heavyweights of past but that does not mean he would win. With his no heart and glass jaw. He knocks out his fair share. But with him its a toss up. Depends on the ref.

[Dekkers]

True, but Patterson (despite the occasional boxing) did have an innate aggression. His evasiveness was extremely impressive, he worked the body consistently, and his hands were probably faster than Dempsey's. One other factor in his favor is the same one that wouldn't seem important at first--his mobility. Wlad likes to get "set" when he's attacking you, and a moving target like Patterson would force him to fight on the move, where he's prone to making more errors. It's the same weakness that might cause him trouble against Quarry. That, and Floyd hits a lot harder than most give him credit for.

Wlad's pawing jab and stationary one-two style is the sort of thing Patterson liked.

That being said, Dempsey does have a better chance than Patterson. But Patterson still has an extremely good one.
You make a good argument, I may be slightly biased against Dempsey since the first fights I saw of his were Liston 1-2, Ali 1 and Johanssen 1&2. So I'm used to seeing him soundly thrashed :yep

I just imagine a right hand landing on the guard, shaking Patterson (not to mention how much Listons' heavier jabs seemed to trouble Patterson, Wlads' also got a nice left hook, though it's a bit underused lately imo) and it spelling the beginning of the end for Patterson in the second or third round, you're right though I may be overrating Wlad in this one :D

[box03]

Well technically Wlad is like bigger then most of the old heavyweights of past but that does not mean he would win. With his no heart and glass jaw. He knocks out his fair share. But with him its a toss up. Depends on the ref. True, Wlads chin,heart, and stamina issues would leave him looking pretty bad against pressure fighters like Tyson,Dempsey,Marciano. The only reason Wlad shines so well is because hes beating everyone in one of the weakest heavywieght divisions of all time, any fighter of yester year who had a good chin with above average power and wasnt afraid to put pressure on Wlad would walk through him.

[Decker]

True, Wlads chin,heart, and stamina issues would leave him looking pretty bad against pressure fighters like Tyson,Dempsey,Marciano. The only reason Wlad shines so well is because hes beating everyone in one of the weakest heavywieght divisions of all time, any fighter of yester year who had a good chin with above average power and wasnt afraid to put pressure on Wlad would walk through him.box03 do you have any hobbies besides running the HW division into the ground - defying common sense and the law of physics. I'm a huge Duran fan and consider him a p4p ATG. I suppose since: size does not matter, Duran fought back in the day, had lots of heart, top stamina, and was a natural aggressive fighter, why he could beat Wlad too. :nut Get a new hobby.

Box03 logic -> Womens tennis is real bad right now since there are so many top players from Eastern Europe, and the US women aren't winning almost every tournament. Why the top female players from the 70s would clean out todays champs. :nut :patsch

The days of US athletes dominating boxing or tennis are basically over. The comp now is even more world wide. None of your blind disregard for the facts is going to change that. :tong

[Cojimar 1945]

I don't see much point in comparing athletes from different eras on a head to head basis given all the advancements in sports. Record times are broken all the time with athletes consistently outperforming their predecessors so why would people think the old timers would be a match for later athletes who outperform them?

[Cojimar 1945]

Do people think Wladimir could beat the best heavyweights of the 2040s?

[box03]

box03 do you have any hobbies besides running the HW division into the ground - defying common sense and the law of physics. I'm a huge Duran fan and consider him a p4p ATG. I suppose since: size does not matter, Duran fought back in the day, had lots of heart, top stamina, and was a natural aggressive fighter, why he could beat Wlad too. :nut Get a new hobby.

Box03 logic -> Womens tennis is real bad right now since there are so many top players from Eastern Europe, and the US women aren't winning almost every tournament. Why the top female players from the 70s would clean out todays champs. :nut :patsch

The days of US athletes dominating boxing or tennis are basically over. The comp now is even more world wide. None of your blind disregard for the facts is going to change that. :tong I have probably watched more heavywieght fights than you have in the last 5 weak years, I know what Im looking at and it aint good. Womens tennis is doing fine by the way, Serena is still a big draw and Sharapova is good too. Heavywieght boxing is not what it used to be, how many PPV matches were heavywieght this year and the Briggs/Iggy fight dont count because Showtime wouldnt show it because no one wanted to see it. There were 2 Holyfield/Savarese and I think Rahman/Maskaev was this year.

[Marciano Frazier]

:huh Why?
Oscar Bonavena nearly stopped Frazier in their first fight (dropping JF twice in one round), and Goerge F bounced Joe around the ring like he was a bum. And Wlad is what, an underdog vs 205 lb Joe? :lol: :nut Yeeeeeesssss, because it takes legends like Ross Purrity, Steve Pannell, Corrie Sanders, Lamon Brewster, DaVarryl Williamson and Samuel Peter to put Wlad down or out.

[box03]

Yeeeeeesssss, because it takes legends like Ross Purrity, Steve Pannell, Corrie Sanders, Lamon Brewster, DaVarryl Williamson and Samuel Peter to put Wlad down or out. All it would take from Joe is one left hook to put Wlad into panic attack mode, but thats Wlad "the fag" for ya.

[lzolnier]

Frazier
Patterson
Marciano
Charles
Walcott
Braddock
Baer


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Sakura]

Wlad doesn't beat Frazier, sorry.

Joe Frasier first Ali fight: 5'11, 205 lb

Wladimir Klitchko: >6'6, 243lb......:rofl

[Sakura]

Yeeeeeesssss, because it takes legends like Ross Purrity, Steve Pannell, Corrie Sanders, Lamon Brewster, DaVarryl Williamson and Samuel Peter to put Wlad down or out.

Those all are heavyweights..check boxrec..even Byrd is bigger than Frasier

[Fighting Weight]

Those all are heavyweights..check boxrec..even Byrd is bigger than Frasier

Spoken like a true Klit-ite :good

I checked boxrec and I never saw Frazier on there losing to average fighters, unlike someone else I could mention.

[Relentless]

Joe Frasier first Ali fight: 5'11, 205 lb

Wladimir Klitchko: >6'6, 243lb......:rofl

yeah, weight really mattered in the first brewster and the sanders fight:rofl

oh look butterbean is bigger than marciano, i'm sure he would destroy him lol lol lawl.

[BewareofDawg]

yeah, weight really mattered in the first brewster and the sanders fight:rofl

oh look butterbean is bigger than marciano, i'm sure he would destroy him lol lol lawl.
Butterbean KO1 Marciano...didn't you watch the Butterbean/Johnny Knoxville fight?

Brewster is over 220lbs and Sanders is huge. You have to be the dumbest fucking poster on here Relentless :rofl :rofl :rofl

Wlad would have inflicted permanent damage in the 4 rounds it took him to trash Frazier.

[Cruiser1]

Any heavyweight that can punch hard and can take a hard punch will always have a better than average chance against Wladimir. It really comes down to how much of a threat the other fighter offers.

[Boro chris]

No chance at all. Tyson wasn't a good boxer, and even though I;m a fan of Klitschko, it should be clear to even his haters that he is an exceptional boxer.

If Tyson is going to beat Klitschko, he will stop him. The chances of Tyson outboxing Klitschko are slim to none.

It;s just a bad fight for Tyson. as seen in the Bonecrusher fight, he struggled against big boxers. Smith used his jab and walked away from him th whole fight. He set the blueprint on how to beat Tyson, which Douglas followed.

The Douglas fight is worth mentioning too, because the tactis Buster used were similar to the ones Klitschko has perfected. Stiff jab, quick one-two combos, avoid confrontation and fight on the backfoot.

I know your reply will be "Tyson wasn't at his bets then", and that's fair enough, but I do think what Klitschko has gives Tyson problems.

And obviously it's the other way around too. I don't know how well Klitschko would cope with a relentless beats like Iron Mike, but I doubt it would be too good. Tyson was ferocious and that's probably Klitschko's weakness. If he is allowed to box, Klitschko will do fantastically. if he is drawn into a fight, his mental weaknesses and fairly poor chin come into play.

If Tyson boxes, he loses.
If Klitschko fights, he loses.

Sorry mate I was joking! When I said he'd beat him at boxing I didn't mean stick and move (that would be ridiculous for Tyson to attempt!) I ment fight him normally. I was just making an off colour joke of the prison rape variety!:lol:
Tyson fighting his normal game is streets ahead of Wlad, quicker, meaner and tougher.

[joe the great]

I think he beats Willard, Burns, Schemeling, Patterson and Braddock.
I'd have him a pickem against Baer, Liston, Moorer, Bowe, Pinklon Thomas, Trevor Berbick, Charles and Tunney.
I would favor him over any of todays champs.

[Boro chris]

Butterbean KO1 Marciano...didn't you watch the Butterbean/Johnny Knoxville fight?

Brewster is over 220lbs and Sanders is huge. You have to be the dumbest fucking poster on here Relentless :rofl :rofl :rofl

Wlad would have inflicted permanent damage in the 4 rounds it took him to trash Frazier.

My god are you serious!!?:admin

Wlad is a very ordinairy fighter when you compare him to atg's!

[BewareofDawg]

My god are you serious!!?:admin

Wlad is a very ordinairy fighter when you compare him to atg's!
There is absolutely nothing ordinary about a 6'7" man with that kind of footwork and speed. He has an amazing jab and one of the best straight rights the sport has ever seen in the heavyweight division. I'm not taking anything away from Frazier and I'm not even saying Frazier wouldn't have a chance. Resume wise, yes, Frazier Trumps him. But the size difference is fucking huge, and Frazier wasn't the most elusive or slickest of boxers. Look what Foreman did to him, and tell me he won't be hurt by Wlads right hand. Wlad is bigger and stronger than George and George smacked Frazier around like a child.

There is no question who I would favor, and I really don't think it would take long either.

[Sakura]

Spoken like a true Klit-ite :good

I checked boxrec and I never saw Frazier on there losing to average fighters, unlike someone else I could mention.

Sure, but those average fighters are big ones...ask Chris Byrd why he told his interview that wlad was just to big to him.

[Muchmoore]

Ross was a big, durable 250# HW. If you come in too light and punch yourself out, you can lose to a Purrity. Ron Stander (a good crude slugger) stopped Shavers. Was Shavers not a top fighter? Why the "hate" on Ross - he could have given fits and beaten most of the small HWs of the past. Ringo being a good candidate ! :yep Except for very early in his career, he was only stopped once - by bro Vitali. No shame in that. :good

Purrity was also a big, durable journeymen. Shavers lost to more than a few journeymen, his stamina did him in. Stallings beat him as well.

Bonavena would of spanked Purrity.

[Muchmoore]

Joe Frasier first Ali fight: 5'11, 205 lb

Wladimir Klitchko: >6'6, 243lb......:rofl

And Valuev is 7 feet and over 300 pounds he must be the greatest fighter to ever live.

[Sakura]

And Valuev is 7 feet and over 300 pounds he must be the greatest fighter to ever live.


No his not... but you can't compare him olympic goldmetalist who are know'n to be very technically skilled fighter.

Valuev success tell's only how much big size means in boxing.

[Decker]

Spoken like a true Klit-ite :good

I checked boxrec and I never saw Frazier on there losing to average fighters, unlike someone else I could mention. Replied like a Wlad hating comedian (lunatic is more accurate). :yep

FW, Sanders, Brewster, hell even Purrity are not "average" fighters. Except for Foreman, Joe hardly ever faced men the size and punching power of the 3 that bested Wlad. He avenged the Brew loss, and I'm sure a prime Wlad beats a prime Sanders 3 out of 4 and a prime Purrity almost every time. :good

[cross_trainer]

Replied like a Wlad hating comedian (lunatic is more accurate). :yep

FW, Sanders, Brewster, hell even Purrity are not "average" fighters. Except for Foreman, Joe hardly ever faced men the size and punching power of the 3 that bested Wlad. He avenged the Brew loss, and I'm sure a prime Wlad beats a prime Sanders 3 out of 4 and a prime Purrity almost every time. :good

Sanders, Brewster, and especially Purrity (!) are not remotely close to Foreman's capabilities. They are only comparable in the loosest sense of the term--they are about the same size. Then again, part of that comes down to extra blubber.

[cross_trainer]

box03 do you have any hobbies besides running the HW division into the ground - defying common sense and the law of physics. I'm a huge Duran fan and consider him a p4p ATG. I suppose since: size does not matter, Duran fought back in the day, had lots of heart, top stamina, and was a natural aggressive fighter, why he could beat Wlad too. :nut Get a new hobby.

There's not all that much difference in power between a 207 pound man and a 237 pound one, as efficiency decreases with extra size. At least, this is the case when you look at the Olympic lifting tallies.


The days of US athletes dominating boxing or tennis are basically over. The comp now is even more world wide. None of your blind disregard for the facts is going to change that. :tong

In the 60's, American heavyweights dominated in the amateurs as well as the professionals, despite the amateur game also being worldwide.

[ThePlugInBabies]

Replied like a Wlad hating comedian (lunatic is more accurate). :yep

FW, Sanders, Brewster, hell even Purrity are not "average" fighters. Except for Foreman, Joe hardly ever faced men the size and punching power of the 3 that bested Wlad. He avenged the Brew loss, and I'm sure a prime Wlad beats a prime Sanders 3 out of 4 and a prime Purrity almost every time. :good

oh.my.word. :-(

[Decker]

I have probably watched more heavywieght fights than you have in the last 5 weak years, I know what Im looking at and it aint good. And I have watched much more in the past 40 years - which is more to the point of this discussion :tong

Womens tennis is doing fine by the way, Serena is still a big draw and Sharapova is good too. It is, and the heavy surge from east Euro women has made it much more deep. Kournakova - who was a top player for a while - did more to popularize womens tennis 8+ years ago than anybody. For uh, reasons beyond her tennis ability :hey

I'd be willing to go a few rounds with Maria too
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
She's 6'1", younger and in much better arobic shape. I'd might lose a UD but am willing to give it a go :lol: I expect - and hope for - many clinches :D

Heavywieght boxing is not what it used to be, how many PPV matches were heavywieght this year and the Briggs/Iggy fight dont count because Showtime wouldnt show it because no one wanted to see it. There were 2 Holyfield/Savarese and I think Rahman/Maskaev was this year.It isn't to you because you dislike the current champs. The US is not almost the entire world :roll:

[Relentless]

Sure, but those average fighters are big ones...ask Chris Byrd why he told his interview that wlad was just to big to him.


chris byrd?? who the fuck is he?

[Relentless]

Butterbean KO1 Marciano...didn't you watch the Butterbean/Johnny Knoxville fight?

Brewster is over 220lbs and Sanders is huge. You have to be the dumbest fucking poster on here Relentless :rofl :rofl :rofl

Wlad would have inflicted permanent damage in the 4 rounds it took him to trash Frazier.

hey irishdawg you are the dumbest poster on here, stupid wladsexual.

[Vockerman]

At this moment where does Wlad place?

I have him between

the 6'5" 248lbs Jess Willard (an undisputed world champ with a bigger win)
and
the 6'6" 255lbs Primo Carnera (undisputed world champ with 72 KO's)

If he unifies he might edge these guys...

:rasta

[Decker]

At this moment where does Wlad place?

I have him between

the 6'5" 248lbs Jess Willard (an undisputed world champ with a bigger win)
and
the 6'6" 255lbs Primo Carnera (undisputed world champ with 72 KO's)

If he unifies he might edge these guys...

:rastaIf he unifies is mostly beyond his control in this era, and you know it.

Look Obi-Wannabe Kenobi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), as Yoda might say about your post, "Stupid it is, that post."

Wlad would soundly beat the relatively clumsy Williard and Carnera. :tong Even you know that. :-(

[ThePlugInBabies]

If he unifies is mostly beyond his control in this era, and you know it.

Look Obi-Wannabe Kenobi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), as Yoda might say about your post, "Stupid it is, that post."

Wlad would soundly beat the relatively clumsy Williard and Carnera. :tong Even you know that. :-(

h2h is only part of ranking fighters.

canera and willard were both legit world champions, wlad is nothing but a title holder.

[cross_trainer]

If he unifies is mostly beyond his control in this era, and you know it.

Look Obi-Wannabe Kenobi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), as Yoda might say about your post, "Stupid it is, that post."

Wlad would soundly beat the relatively clumsy Williard and Carnera. :tong Even you know that. :-(

Did Carnera and Willard box in a less skilled manner than their contemporaries are criticized as doing?

[box03]

And I have watched much more in the past 40 years - which is more to the point of this discussion :tong

It is, and the heavy surge from east Euro women has made it much more deep. Kournakova - who was a top player for a while - did more to popularize womens tennis 8+ years ago than anybody. For uh, reasons beyond her tennis ability :hey

I'd be willing to go a few rounds with Maria too
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
She's 6'1", younger and in much better arobic shape. I'd might lose a UD but am willing to give it a go :lol: I expect - and hope for - many clinches :D

It isn't to you because you dislike the current champs. The US is not almost the entire world :roll: I understand The US is not most of the world, I understand that, but if you watched showtime or HBO especially in the last 5 years they all make negative comments about the heavywieght division. I wasnt around 40 years ago, but I have watched alot of fights from that time on. Im not sure where your live, but where I live the gay ufc is starting to over shadow boxing and I partially blame the heavywieght division for that.

[Decker]

h2h is only part of ranking fighters. You can make it part, all, or no part of ranking fighters to suit your bias or desired outcome. I'm making claims based on unadjusted (size) h2h - which is what most would say this thread was using as the criteria.

canera and willard were both legit world champions, wlad is nothing but a title holder.Different era - Primo & Jess might qualify as sparring partners for a Wlad in this era. :lol:

We used to have 3-6 channels on the boob tube and no internet. Times change. I doubt Carnera & Williard could sniff a belt today. Is that your point? :rofl

Anyway, it seems I've been taking on 3-5 Wlad/current era HW haters with limited support. Frankly I can't blame the current HW era supporters. This is getting boring. The Lewis and Wlad type HWs would easily beat most "HW" champs of the past and even most of the 80s fighters. If Dempsey or Ali were fighting today would they single handedly change the business of pro boxing? That is, would they eliminate the 4 main orgs by themselves? You're dreaming.

[Muchmoore]

No his not... but you can't compare him olympic goldmetalist who are know'n to be very technically skilled fighter.

Valuev success tell's only how much big size means in boxing.

Size is important but Wlad being big doesn't automaticly make him the favorite over ATG Joe Frazier whos only KO loss was to arguably the hardest puncher ever in a horrible style matchup.

[Sakura]

h2h is only part of ranking fighters.

canera and willard were both legit world champions, wlad is nothing but a title holder.

Are we talking about accomplishment or ability to win face by face?

[Dorfmeister]

ATGs such as Mike "Hercules" Weaver, Randall Tex Cobb, "Boogie Man" Jesse Ferguson and Rocky Balboa.

[box03]

You can make it part, all, or no part of ranking fighters to suit your bias or desired outcome. I'm making claims based on unadjusted (size) h2h - which is what most would say this thread was using as the criteria.

Different era - Primo & Jess might qualify as sparring partners for a Wlad in this era. :lol:

We used to have 3-6 channels on the boob tube and no internet. Times change. I doubt Carnera & Williard could sniff a belt today. Is that your point? :rofl

Anyway, it seems I've been taking on 3-5 Wlad/current era HW haters with limited support. Frankly I can't blame the current HW era supporters. This is getting boring. The Lewis and Wlad type HWs would easily beat most "HW" champs of the past and even most of the 80s fighters. If Dempsey or Ali were fighting today would they single handedly change the business of pro boxing? That is, would they eliminate the 4 main orgs by themselves? You're dreaming. The same Dempsey that fought Willard would destroy Wlad, Dempsey was only 6'0 190 and would pressure Wlad and get to the the ropes and unload. Wlad has the weakest chin of any heavywieght champ aside from Floyd Patterson but was he more of LightHeavywieght in size. When Wlad is hit hard he panics for what ever reason, and for anyone whos think Dempsey would hit Wlad with anything big are fooling themselves.

[Sakura]

Size is important but Wlad being big doesn't automaticly make him the favorite over ATG Joe Frazier whos only KO loss was to arguably the hardest puncher ever in a horrible style matchup.

Of course not. It's not sure than even Lewis can take Frasier out...but i bet to Lewis, because of his size advantage and not his better skills..same think is compare him fight with Roy Jones

[Muchmoore]

This is getting boring. The Lewis and Wlad type HWs would easily beat most "HW" champs of the past and even most of the 80s fighters.

What George Foreman and Larry Holmes achieved during their 40s in this era proved that theory wrong. Foreman and Holmes were both shells of their former selves but yet managed to be elite fighters against guys like Mercer, Shannon Briggs, Holyfield, Moorer, McCall, etc.

[ralphc]

What do you think? (All Time Great at HW)

Anyone?


Klitschko merely exploits a weak division. A man with so little interest in fighting would be blowout by a real fighter.

[Orang-Utan Jim]

I think its not about Klitschko. Every Top3 HW out of the last 20 years would be favourite over all the pre war champs, due to the simple fact, that these guys were mostly 180-190 lbs. boxer with a complete different boxingstyle than nowadays. Another point is, that today guys like Lewis, Tyson and Klitschko are complete athletes with much better nutrition, training technics and all that stuff than 80 years ago.

The first HW in history which would be really interesting IMO is Liston. After Liston the champs were at least aboove 205-210 lbs. and with a modern boxingstyle.

[box03]

I think its not about Klitschko. Every Top3 HW out of the last 20 years would be favourite over all the pre war champs, due to the simple fact, that these guys were mostly 180-190 lbs. boxer with a complete different boxingstyle than nowadays. Another point is, that today guys like Lewis, Tyson and Klitschko are complete athletes with much better nutrition, training technics and all that stuff than 80 years ago.

The first HW in history which would be really interesting IMO is Liston. After Liston the champs were at least aboove 205-210 lbs. and with a modern boxingstyle. Fighters of todays generation werent as tough, if shit gets too rough in the ring for them they either quit or fall so many times they force the ref to stop the fight, Size matters but not as much as some people think. I will always favor a guy whos mentally tough and lacks size over a guy whos big and not mentally tough. Tyson is not mentally tough, and Wlad is extremely mentally weak, Lewis was a little shakey in the mental department as well.

[ThePlugInBabies]

lewis mentally weak? got back in the ring with the two guys who had defeated him, came out on top of real fights like briggs, mercer and vitali. lennox was far from mentally soft. lazy at times yes, but this is something completely different to what you suggest.

[box03]

lewis mentally weak? got back in the ring with the two guys who had defeated him, came out on top of real fights like briggs, mercer and vitali. lennox was far from mentally soft. lazy at times yes, but this is something completely different to what you suggest. He was the stronger of the 3 mentally, and him not wanting to fight Vitali in a rematch made me question his heart a bit.

[Orang-Utan Jim]

Fighters of todays generation werent as tough, if shit gets too rough in the ring for them they either quit or fall so many times they force the ref to stop the fight, Size matters but not as much as some people think. I will always favor a guy whos mentally tough and lacks size over a guy whos big and not mentally tough. Tyson is not mentally tough, and Wlad is extremely mentally weak, Lewis was a little shakey in the mental department as well.

You are right that old school fighter were really tough bastards. I mean going 30 or 40 rounds is crazy. But I think nowadays fighters are not that mentally weak as you think. If boxing commissions today would install 25 rounders instead of 12 rounders I cannot see Lewis, Tyson or Klitschko pulling out of the game. So IMO size together with speed matters more than mental strenghts. I cannot see all the prewar fighters not getting hit flush several times in the first couple of rounds by these physical monsters.

[Vockerman]

If he unifies is mostly beyond his control in this era, and you know it.

Look Obi-Wannabe Kenobi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), as Yoda might say about your post, "Stupid it is, that post."

Wlad would soundly beat the relatively clumsy Williard and Carnera. :tong Even you know that. :-(

Elightened I am by DECK-hed Hummmmmm?

I rate Wlad with COONEY now!

Much better is that hummmmmmm?

As large - more modern, didn't unify!

If Wald the belts to unify WANTED, take the fights for less money he could.
But that is Willard's fault - Hummmm? Or Carnera's?

How do I know a beating they would take -HuMMM?

Educate me please...

[box03]

You are right that old school fighter were really tough bastards. I mean going 30 or 40 rounds is crazy. But I think nowadays fighters are not that mentally weak as you think. If boxing commissions today would install 25 rounders instead of 12 rounders I cannot see Lewis, Tyson or Klitschko pulling out of the game. So IMO size together with speed matters more than mental strenghts. I cannot see all the prewar fighters not getting hit flush several times in the first couple of rounds by these physical monsters. Let me pose another question then, do you really think if there was even say 15 rounds as there was over 20 years, you would see alot of heavywieghts coming in alot lighter than they are today. Fighters like Lewis and Wlad, had stamina issues throughout there careers, we seen Lewis out of shape in the Vitali fight and a few others, we have seen Wlad get tired many fights against purrity,Brewster, and Mercer to name a few. If you made championship fights 15 rounds again you see fighters coming in a lighter wieghts.

[Sakura]

I wanna see, when someone about 205 lbs can win Wladimir, or even take close fight...it never happen...novadays there are only 12 rounds matches and that's not Lewis or Klitchkos fault.

Wladimir get tired, yes, but he might have extertion asthma or something..By the way wlad didint tired Mercer fight...he just punch Mercer out and easily, biased fight

[box03]

I wanna see, when someone about 205 lbs can win Wladimir, or even take close fight...it never happen...novadays there are only 12 rounds matches and that's not Lewis or Klitchkos fault.

Wladimir get tired, yes, but he might have extertion asthma or something..By the way wlad didint tired Mercer fight...he just punch Mercer out and easily, biased fight Wlad was blue in the face I believe after the 3rd or 4th round, and lampley or Merchant commented on it. Watch the fight again, you will see what I mean.

[Relentless]

I wanna see, when someone about 205 lbs can win Wladimir, or even take close fight...it never happen...novadays there are only 12 rounds matches and that's not Lewis or Klitchkos fault.

Wladimir get tired, yes, but he might have extertion asthma or something..By the way wlad didint tired Mercer fight...he just punch Mercer out and easily, biased fight

i guess you think valuev can beat wlad?

[Sakura]

Wlad was blue in the face I believe after the 3rd or 4th round, and lampley or Merchant commented on it. Watch the fight again, you will see what I mean.

I've seen fight a couple time and he always look same:yep I admit that they might be somekind of asthma, because he punch himself out so many times...

[BewareofDawg]

I've seen fight a couple time and he always look same:yep I admit that they might be somekind of asthma, because he punch himself out so many times...
He seemed to be ok in the last round against the Nigerian Nightmare :yep

[Sakura]

He seemed to be ok in the last round against the Nigerian Nightmare :yep

Maybe, samuel was so easy opponent:hey

[Orang-Utan Jim]

Let me pose another question then, do you really think if there was even say 15 rounds as there was over 20 years, you would see alot of heavywieghts coming in alot lighter than they are today. Fighters like Lewis and Wlad, had stamina issues throughout there careers, we seen Lewis out of shape in the Vitali fight and a few others, we have seen Wlad get tired many fights against purrity,Brewster, and Mercer to name a few. If you made championship fights 15 rounds again you see fighters coming in a lighter wieghts.
Not necessary. Maybe a little bit lighter but not really significant. Klitschko and Lewis maybe at 235 lbs. or so. BTW I don´t see Klitschko having real stamina issues. IMO it was more an issue to pace himself. Every sportsmen gasses, if he gives too much early.
Even with 15 rounds I don´t see the big HW´s giving away their advantage in reach height and weight to the old school guys. Fighting a huge guy with accurate punching and an accurate jab, gives even the toughest bastards after a couple of rounds serious trouble. I am not saying the big guys would kick their asses in any case, but they would be favourites, definitely....

Imagine a fight between Roy Jones jr. in 2000 at 190lbs. or so vs. a 245lbs. Lewis or Klitschko. Sorry, but no chance for Jones jr., and he would´ve been a dominant HW champ with that weight and skills in the 20, 30es....

[dave]

he could beat all of them and also lose to them...he is very good and in the last couple of years he has been unbeatble

[Orang-Utan Jim]

he could beat all of them and also lose to them...he is very good and in the last couple of years he has been unbeatble

Mate, there is no fighter who is unbeatable. Klitschko right now is hard to beat and he would be hard to beat for any HW in history, but he is never ever unbeatable.

[box03]

Not necessary. Maybe a little bit lighter but not really significant. Klitschko and Lewis maybe at 235 lbs. or so. BTW I don´t see Klitschko having real stamina issues. IMO it was more an issue to pace himself. Every sportsmen gasses, if he gives too much early.
Even with 15 rounds I don´t see the big HW´s giving away their advantage in reach height and weight to the old school guys. Fighting a huge guy with accurate punching and an accurate jab, gives even the toughest bastards after a couple of rounds serious trouble. I am not saying the big guys would kick their asses in any case, but they would be favourites, definitely....

Imagine a fight between Roy Jones jr. in 2000 at 190lbs. or so vs. a 245lbs. Lewis or Klitschko. Sorry, but no chance for Jones jr., and he would´ve been a dominant HW champ with that weight and skills in the 20, 30es.... Even though its only 3 rounds more, but the better conditioned athletes have a bettter chance to prevail. I would put money down that Hopkins would of beat maybe even knocked Taylor out in there first fight if there were 3 more rounds, generally the bigger you are the stronger you are, but it also true with more size comes less speed and possible stamina issues. I dont see Wlad fairing well in 70s or the 90s, his chin would be seriously checked by guys like Bowe, Foreman, and Holyfield, this guys not only had good chins but had great pop to there punches.

[Orang-Utan Jim]

Even though its only 3 rounds more, but the better conditioned athletes have a bettter chance to prevail. I would put money down that Hopkins would of beat maybe even knocked Taylor out in there first fight if there were 3 more rounds, generally the bigger you are the stronger you are, but it also true with more size comes less speed and possible stamina issues. I dont see Wlad fairing well in 70s or the 90s, his chin would be seriously checked by guys like Bowe, Foreman, and Holyfield, this guys not only had good chins but had great pop to there punches.

Yep, Klitschko would´ve been chinchecked more often than nowadays. And that would be the issue why you would give Foreman and Holmes and maybe Bowe and Liston (not compulsory) the edge over Klitschko. But on the other hand I wouldn´t call Klitschko a real underdog vs. these fighters. His punch is good enough to KO anybody out there, so his opponent always gets chinchecked too. Hell that would be awesome fights....

[cross_trainer]

We used to have 3-6 channels on the boob tube and no internet. Times change.


We are exactly the same, biologically, as we were fifty years ago. Making better televisions and beating people up are not the same thing.

[box03]

Yep, Klitschko would´ve been chinchecked more often than nowadays. And that would be the issue why you would give Foreman and Holmes and maybe Bowe and Liston (not compulsory) the edge over Klitschko. But on the other hand I wouldn´t call Klitschko a real underdog vs. these fighters. His punch is good enough to KO anybody out there, so his opponent always gets chinchecked too. Hell that would be awesome fights.... The only difference between the guys I mentioned and Wlad our guys like Holyfield,Bowe, and Foreman can take punch, Wlad cant. Bowe would really have a field day with Wlad, everytime Wlad would clinch he would throw a sneaky uppercut on the inside and a few of them would put Wlad on queer street. Wlad is far from great, he just looks good because hes dominating in one of the weakest divisions heavywieght boxings ever seen. I dont blame Wlad for this, but your not a great fighter until you beat a great fighter, Wlad has never done this. The best fighter he has beaten is Chris Bryd who is good fighter in his own right, but far from great.

[Orang-Utan Jim]

The only difference between the guys I mentioned and Wlad our guys like Holyfield,Bowe, and Foreman can take punch, Wlad cant. Bowe would really have a field day with Wlad, everytime Wlad would clinch he would throw a sneaky uppercut on the inside and a few of them would put Wlad on queer street. Wlad is far from great, he just looks good because hes dominating in one of the weakest divisions heavywieght boxings ever seen. I dont blame Wlad for this, but your not a great fighter until you beat a great fighter, Wlad has never done this. The best fighter he has beaten is Chris Bryd who is good fighter in his own right, but far from great.

Yeah, but you cannot be blamed for the state of the division. The HW at Tysons prime wasn´t better then nowadays. Klitschko is dominateing a weak diviosion and thats what he has to do. How he would prevail in other eras is a speculation.

BTW Joe Louis, Patterson or Frazier hadnt the best chin either, but dominated.

[cross_trainer]

BTW Joe Louis, Patterson or Frazier hadnt the best chin either, but dominated.

Well...

Frazier was only stopped by the guy with some of the best power in history--so good that he knocked out the linear champion twenty years later with it. Patterson, I agree with. Louis is a borderline case.

[box03]

Yeah, but you cannot be blamed for the state of the division. The HW at Tysons prime wasn´t better then nowadays. Klitschko is dominateing a weak diviosion and thats what he has to do. How he would prevail in other eras is a speculation.

BTW Joe Louis, Patterson or Frazier hadnt the best chin either, but dominated. At lest people back then knew who the champ was, go to the bar tonite and ask 10 people who the champ is? I bet you more people say Lewis and Holyfield than they do Wlad and Lewis has been retired for the last 4 years, Holyfield hasnt held a piece of the belt even longer. People dont like to watch losers, and thats what the heavywieght division has become a loser. Even Ken Shamrock made the comment, the reason why UFC is doing so well is because the Heavywieght division isnt.

[Decker]

Elightened I am by DECK-hed Hummmmmm?

I rate Wlad with COONEY now!

Much better is that hummmmmmm?

As large - more modern, didn't unify!

If Wald the belts to unify WANTED, take the fights for less money he could.
But that is Willard's fault - Hummmm? Or Carnera's?

How do I know a beating they would take -HuMMM?

Educate me please... Educate you, I can not. Suggestion I have. You do a pretty good Yoda. :think Why don't you change your avatar from Kenobi to the troll like Yoda?

You probably look more like Yoda than the classy Alec Guinness anyway :yep

[bumdujour]

Frazier
Patterson
Marciano
Charles
Walcott
Braddock
Baer


:yikes :yikes :yikes :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( .....ahem, you dumb:yep

[Sakura]

Even though its only 3 rounds more, but the better conditioned athletes have a bettter chance to prevail. I would put money down that Hopkins would of beat maybe even knocked Taylor out in there first fight if there were 3 more rounds, generally the bigger you are the stronger you are, but it also true with more size comes less speed and possible stamina issues. I dont see Wlad fairing well in 70s or the 90s, his chin would be seriously checked by guys like Bowe, Foreman, and Holyfield, this guys not only had good chins but had great pop to there punches.

Foreman, Bowe etc..never tested man like Lewis or Klitchkos neather. Foreman was "big" George, but novadays he wouldnt be so big.

[cross_trainer]

Educate you, I can not. Suggestion I have. You do a pretty good Yoda. :think Why don't you change your avatar from Kenobi to the troll like Yoda?

You probably look more like Yoda than the classy Alec Guinness anyway :yep

His post has convinced me of a Wlad/Cooney similarity. He has altered my opinion. Pray he does not alter it any further.

[box03]

Foreman, Bowe etc..never tested man like Lewis or Klitchkos neather. Foreman was "big" George, but novadays he wouldnt be so big. I think Lewis is a good boxer that would probably be pretty good in any era, Wlad on the other hand lacks a ton mental strength and any ATG or great fighter would exploit that relatively easy. Alot of fighters dont mind taking a punch to give one, like Brewster said after there first fight " Wlad can dish it, but he cant take it". Which is 100% true, if you can hang in there long enough to throw that one big punch you will more and likely beat Wlad. I mean thats be serious do you really see Foreman or Bowe being pushed around by a china chin like Wlad, its just unfortunate theres no one good enough now to expose Wlad for what he really is.

[Decker]

At lest people back then knew who the champ was, go to the bar tonite and ask 10 people who the champ is? box03 among other ailments, you are suffering from the front runner mentality. MLB was overwhelmingly the team sport many decades ago. Not true in the US now. If you asked 10 people in a bar (unless very up scale) to write a correct paragraph in English or do a simple algebra problem, maybe less could do these exercizes today than decades ago. So? That's just a sad commentary on declining standards in US public education. Also entertainment options are much greater than "when everybody (in the US) knew who the HW champ was". We're on one such medium right now !

I bet you more people say Lewis and Holyfield than they do Wlad and Lewis has been retired for the last 4 years, Holyfield hasnt held a piece of the belt even longer. People dont like to watch losers, and thats what the heavywieght division has become a loser. Even Ken Shamrock made the comment, the reason why UFC is doing so well is because the Heavywieght division isnt.I watch very little UFC. The problem in boxing is people like you. I think you're a good candidate to switch over to UFC - or at least stop following the HW's in boxing. Btw, a younger cousin of mine follows the UFC type fights much more than boxing. It has nothing to do with the state of HW boxing. :roll:

[Sakura]

I think Lewis is a good boxer that would probably be pretty good in any era, Wlad on the other hand lacks a ton mental strength and any ATG or great fighter would exploit that relatively easy. Alot of fighters dont mind taking a punch to give one, like Brewster said after there first fight " Wlad can dish it, but he cant take it". Which is 100% true, if you can hang in there long enough to throw that one big punch you will more and likely beat Wlad. I mean thats be serious do you really see Foreman or Bowe being pushed around by a china chin like Wlad, its just unfortunate theres no one good enough now to expose Wlad for what he really is.

Remember,those older guy's never face cuban or soviet union fighters in pro ring!

You dont have to take it if you are enought good avoid it..Ali was extremely good,but lacks power and thats why he have to take it sometimes. Wlad has learn a good lesson to how avoid been hit..Foreman and Bowe never take really hard punches to amateur gods like Lewis or Klitchkos..Bowe avoid Lewis and so on...

[cross_trainer]

Remember,those older guy's never face cuban or soviet union fighters in pro ring!

But they did thrash them in the amateur ring, and there appears to be a direct correlation between amateur and professional success.


You dont have to take it if you are enought good avoid it..Ali was extremely good,but lacks power and thats why he have to take it sometimes. Wlad has learn a good lesson to how avoid been hit..Foreman and Bowe never take really hard punches to amateur gods like Lewis or Klitchkos..Bowe avoid Lewis and so on...

Ali was seldom hit in his prime, and showed he could take it. Whereas Wlad, despite his punching power, has sometimes had to take it as well (his evasion rate is lower than Ali's during the latter's peak years) and has been less successful.

[box03]

box03 among other ailments, you are suffering from the front runner mentality. MLB was overwhelmingly the team sport many decades ago. Not true in the US now. If you asked 10 people in a bar (unless very up scale) to write a correct paragraph in English or do a simple algebra problem, maybe less could do these exercizes today than decades ago. So? That's just a sad commentary on declining standards in US public education. Also entertainment options are much greater than "when everybody (in the US) knew who the HW champ was". We're on one such medium right now !

I watch very little UFC. The problem in boxing is people like you. I think you're a good candidate to switch over to UFC - or at least stop following the HW's in boxing. Btw, a younger cousin of mine follows the UFC type fights much more than boxing. It has nothing to do with the state of HW boxing. :roll: Actually your wrong, just 4 years ago people knew the champ was and his name was Lennox Lewis and was not american heavywieght. Me leaving boxing for UFC would be like me leaving Jessica Beal for Courtney Love, it aint going to happen. The UfC wasnt even 25% of what it was in the 90s as it is today, who wants to see Ken Shamrock when you could see a Mike Tyson or an Evander Holyfield. If you watched HBO or showtime in the last 5 years, you will see Im not the only that feels that way.

[BewareofDawg]

You're an idiot if you think Lewis and Klitschko are better than George Foreman.
Lewis was/is.

[Sakura]

You're an idiot if you think Lewis and Klitschko are better than George Foreman.

Yes, maybe i'm idiot...

[Decker]

Well...

Frazier was only stopped by the guy with some of the best power in history--so good that he knocked out the linear champion twenty years later with it. Patterson, I agree with. Louis is a borderline case. CT, Joe was staggered and dropped by the likes of Bugner & Bonavena. Good fighters, but Wald would destroy Joe B & Oscar B. Joe's style gave him a short shelf life. An old hand in boxing should know that. Frazier would have a slim chance vs Wlad. If Joe didn't get warmed up fast, you might see a Foreman-Frazier I repeat. By the standards many fans use to judge Wlad, Patterson & Joe Louis had china chins. And they took punches from mostly CW to small HWs - not Brewster, Sanders, or Peter era HWs :deal

I see you changed your avatar. I think the previous one was of an old time boxer. Can't place him - who was it?
Anyway your current avatar matches the content of your posts much better - at least on this thread ! :yep

[McGrain]

Lewis was/is.

YEAH he was.

[Sakura]

YEAH he was.

His still:yep

[cross_trainer]

CT, Joe was staggered and dropped by the likes of Bugner & Bonavena. Good fighters, but Wald would destroy Joe B & Oscar B. Joe's style gave him a short shelf life. An old hand in boxing should know that.

You caught me. I'm actually Cross_Trainer's deranged, account-hacking nephew.


Frazier would have a slim chance vs Wlad. If Joe didn't get warmed up fast, you might see a Foreman-Frazier I repeat. By the standards many fans use to judge Wlad, Patterson & Joe Louis had china chins. And they took punches from mostly CW to small HWs - not Brewster, Sanders, or Peter era HWs :deal

I see you changed your avatar. I think the previous one was of an old time boxer. Can't place him - who was it?
Anyway your current avatar matches the content of your posts much better - at least on this thread ! :yep

Pulling out the big guns already, I see. :lol:

In any event, Bonavena was at least as good as the fighters around today--a tough scrapper with a low center of gravity, good chin, awkward style and (heed this) an extremely good punch. Ali didn't seem to like his punches any better than Frazier did, and Ali's chin is quite proven. He caught Frazier when the latter was still rather inexperienced with a great punch, and Frazier got off the deck to win. Whereas Wlad faced a journeyman (rather thana top contender) in Purritty and was unable to stave off defeat.

Frazier didn't show any similar chin problems despite taking punches from Bonavena (second fight) and Quarry during his prime, and reportedly walked through Norton in sparring (take it as you will). Ali hammered on him to no avail as well, though many discount Ali's hitting power.

[Sakura]

You caught me. I'm actually Cross_Trainer's deranged, account-hacking nephew.



Pulling out the big guns already, I see. :lol:

In any event, Bonavena was at least as good as the fighters around today--a tough scrapper with a low center of gravity, good chin, awkward style and (heed this) an extremely good punch. He caught Frazier when the latter was still rather inexperienced with a great punch, and Frazier got off the deck to win. Whereas Wlad faced a journeyman (rather thana top contender) in Purritty and was unable to stave off defeat.

Wlads opponents are mostly big guy's with big punch...calculate average opponents weight and you see..

[cross_trainer]

Wlads opponents are mostly big guy's with big punch...calculate average opponents weight and you see..

More weight = big punch?

I would disagree.

[Sakura]

More weight = big punch?

I would disagree.

Not always but generally yes...otherwise there would not be different series

[cross_trainer]

Not always but generally yes...otherwise there would not be different series

After a certain point (about 210 pounds) weight starts to become less of an issue from what I've seen.

[rydersonthestorm]

Lennox lewis was no doubt better than foreman, big george had power but lennox had big power as well. Not only this lennox was a master boxer for a big man, something george was not, had a vast arsenal of punch's something gerorge did not, and before people say anything about his chin lennox had a good chin and george was also dropped a few times in hid career so how is he in anyway better.

[box03]

After a certain point (about 210 pounds) weight starts to become less of an issue from what I've seen. Valuev whos around 330 doesnt punch as hard as Marciano who is 5'10 180, is that enough proof wieght doesnt really matter all that much.

[Decker]

You caught me. I'm actually Cross_Trainer's deranged, account-hacking nephew. Ok :D

Pulling out the big guns already, I see. :lol:

In any event, Bonavena was at least as good as the fighters around today--a tough scrapper with a low center of gravity, good chin, awkward style and (heed this) an extremely good punch. Ali didn't seem to like his punches any better than Frazier did, and Ali's chin is quite proven. He caught Frazier when the latter was still rather inexperienced with a great punch, and Frazier got off the deck to win. Whereas Wlad faced a journeyman (rather thana top contender) in Purritty and was unable to stave off defeat. Here we go again. Wlad was fighting too often - he was literally burnt out. Coming in at 225 was not a good sign. His body must have been trying to burn muscle tissue during the late rounds vs Ross. Agree on what you say about Ringo. But he'd need to be 20+ lbs bigger today to have the same effect and success. Forget Wlad for a minute, what would OB's chances be vs a Chagaev, Iggy, Peter, Valuev, a healthy Vitali :yikes or Brewster !

Frazier didn't show any similar chin problems despite taking punches from Bonavena (second fight) and Quarry during his prime, and reportedly walked through Norton in sparring (take it as you will). Ali hammered on him to no avail as well, though many discount Ali's hitting power.I've seen Ali himself, after his career was long over, admit that he was not a big puncher. That his wins were based on an accumulation of punches or cuts. In retirement, w/o the need to hype/sell fights, he was more honest than his fans.

[cross_trainer]

Valuev whos around 330 doesnt punch as hard as Marciano who is 5'10 180, is that enough proof wieght doesnt really matter all that much.

It matters, but it matters less and less (relatively) as weight increases. Smaller people are generally more efficient P4P, and at a certain point extra size does not increase athleticism.

[Sakura]

After a certain point (about 210 pounds) weight starts to become less of an issue from what I've seen.
Really, 214lbs Byrd was just to small according his own words..Chris was real talent, of course without real punching power but still,he fight like a man against Ike..and lost

[cross_trainer]

Ok :D

Here we go again..

Rather Reaganesque...


Wlad was fighting too often - he was literally burnt out. Coming in at 225 was not a good sign. His body must have been trying to burn muscle tissue during the late rounds vs Ross. Agree on what you say about Ringo. But he'd need to be 20+ lbs bigger today to have the same effect and success. Forget Wlad for a minute, what would OB's chances be vs a Chagaev, Iggy, Peter, Valuev, a healthy Vitali :yikes or Brewster !

If Ibragimov had the same body fat % as Ringo (while keeping his muscle mass constant) he'd be the same size. Brewster may be a little bigger, but again he carries more fat than Bonavena did. Chagaev would be about 210 with Bonavena-equivalent bodyfat. Not that these guys are out of shape (Chagaev trains like a madman), but they're not as big as their weights make them appear.

And who's to say Bonavena would have to be 20 pounds heavier to hit as hard relatively? How did you decide on this figure? :huh


I've seen Ali himself, after his career was long over, admit that he was not a big puncher. That his wins were based on an accumulation of punches or cuts. In retirement, w/o the need to hype/sell fights, he was more honest than his fans.

I never said otherwise. But he hit hard enough that Frazier should have been hurt more than he was with all of the punches Ali hit him with.

[Sakura]

Lennox lewis was no doubt better than foreman, big george had power but lennox had big power as well. Not only this lennox was a master boxer for a big man, something george was not, had a vast arsenal of punch's something gerorge did not, and before people say anything about his chin lennox had a good chin and george was also dropped a few times in hid career so how is he in anyway better.

Foremans problem against Lewis or Klitchkos (expesially,wlad =klitchkos) would be, he had master defence against hooks, but guy who can hit straights right's or jabbing well is big asset against him..look at old fight's..

[cross_trainer]

Really, 214lbs Byrd was just to small according his own words..Chris was real talent, of course without real punching power but still,he fight like a man against Ike..and lost

But he started out as a middleweight, and shouldn't have been higher than the lightheavyweight division. He had to eat large amounts of food and weightlifting like crazy to sustain that sort of weight, whereas guys like Liston were dieting and still weighed 214.

[rydersonthestorm]

To be fair i'm not sure about wlad and vitali as i don't think they have proved enough to say they could beat gerorge but lennox most certainly has.

[Sakura]

But he started out as a middleweight, and shouldn't have been higher than the lightheavyweight division. He had to eat large amounts of food and weightlifting like crazy to sustain that sort of weight, whereas guys like Liston were dieting and still weighed 214.

Byrd look quite normal in that weight...

[box03]

It matters, but it matters less and less (relatively) as weight increases. Smaller people are generally more efficient P4P, and at a certain point extra size does not increase athleticism. I also remember Tyson making this comment on HBO in 1989 during a Julian Jackson fight, " Damn he punches harder than most of the heavywieghts I fought". I believe jackson was around 160 at that time, when you throw a punch its about technique not size, I seen guys at my gym 160 punch as hard as the heavywieghts we have as well. If size matters that much you would have guys like Butterbean and that reject Sapp ruling the heavywieght division, size only matters a little bit not much.

[Sakura]

I also remember Tyson making this comment on HBO in 1989 during a Julian Jackson fight, " Damn he punches harder than most of the heavywieghts I fought". I believe jackson was around 160 at that time, when you throw a punch its about technique not size, I seen guys at my gym 160 punch as hard as the heavywieghts we have as well. If size matters that much you would have guys like Butterbean and that reject Sapp ruling the heavywieght division, size only matters a little bit not much.

But best cruiser against wlad now and you see how much it marks...

[Decker]

Rather Reaganesque... Yes.

If Ibragimov had the same body fat % as Ringo (while keeping his muscle mass constant) he'd be the same size. Brewster may be a little bigger, but again he carries more fat than Bonavena did. Chagaev would be about 210 with Bonavena-equivalent bodyfat. Not that these guys are out of shape (Chagaev trains like a madman), but they're not as big as their weights make them appear.

And who's to say Bonavena would have to be 20 pounds heavier to hit as hard relatively? How did you decide on this figure? :huh Ringo was what, 5'11' tops. I know he had wide shoulders, etc. Still, even though the guys you note are not much bigger (of course the 3 you left out are much bigger) than OB, they are still bigger with at least equal skills. Why 20 lbs? I'm just making OB about 10% bigger - another 1-2" in height and reach wouldn't hurt either.

[box03]

But best cruiser against wlad now and you see how much it marks... Haye, Ding, Mormeck could easily put Wlad to sleep, its not like these guys cant pop as hard as heavywieghts. Wlad has no chin, almost any fighter that lands solid on Wlad could put him on queer street.

[rydersonthestorm]

David haye and ding punch harder than most heavyweights, wouldn't say that about mormeck though, good power but nothing special.

[Sakura]

Haye, Ding, Mormeck could easily put Wlad to sleep, its not like these guys cant pop as hard as heavywieghts. Wlad has no chin, almost any fighter that lands solid on Wlad could put him on queer street.

So, lets make fight!!!!they don't see round 4 in my bet...if i tell you something, almost every pro boxer can make another one's sleep...series don't count necessary...but it is much more difficult to make your hit to target and that way that it's effective.

[rydersonthestorm]

David haye is 6'3 is fast and has good boxing skills, if he beats mormeck you might see this fight pretty soon.

[cross_trainer]

Byrd look quite normal in that weight...

According to his own testimony, he was eating and weight training like there was no tomorrow. I'm not saying he was fat--just that he was doing his utmost to weigh a lot more than he usually would.

[Decker]

Haye, Ding, Mormeck could easily put Wlad to sleep, its not like these guys cant pop as hard as heavywieghts. Wlad has no chin, almost any fighter that lands solid on Wlad could put him on queer street. By that chin standard, neither did Louis or Lewis. But Joe and Lennox did pretty good in their eras :tong

Any good punching fighter near 200 lbs that catches a fighter 250+ lbs flush can put them on queer* street.
Give us another "insight" :roll:

* Btw, you very often manage to get in homosexual references in your posts. Do you realize that? :fight

[Sakura]

According to his own testimony, he was eating and weight training like there was no tomorrow. I'm not saying he was fat--just that he was doing his utmost to weigh a lot more than he usually would.

So, why he eat so much and try to take weight? because of his opponent was so much bigger and stronger...he knew he have to do it...

[cross_trainer]

Yes.

Ringo was what, 5'11' tops. I know he had wide shoulders, etc. Still, even though the guys you note are not much bigger (of course the 3 you left out are much bigger) than OB, they are still bigger with at least equal skills. Why 20 lbs? I'm just making OB about 10% bigger - another 1-2" in height and reach wouldn't hurt either.

I left Valuev out because he has a glandular disorder of some kind that's creating his gigantism. Wlad and Vitali are definitely bigger, but then again Oscar wasn't exactly massive in his own time period either. The Klitschkos (with whom large size clearly runs in the family, a la the Baer Brothers) are the same size as Bonavena contemporary Ernie Terrell.

Bonavena was 204 lbs. when in top condition, and was smaller than many of the top heavyweights of his day. Ibragimov, Chagaev, and Brewster are in the same position, but they have more fat on them than Bonavena even at their best weights (and are not built like tanks). Like I said, there isn't much of a difference between these guys. All are around 220-230, and with a few pounds of weightloss would look strikingly similar to Oscar.

[Strike]

I've always said this. To me most pre Liston heavies would have stuggled with the bigger guys.

Yeah most. Dempsey, Marciano and Louis have more than enough fire power to take Wlad. Wlad could also take them, but the reality is that he often freezes when hit and attacked. Even in fights he has gone on to win like Peter and Williamson he got tagged and stiffened up, panicked and lost composure.

If that happened against someone like Louis he is done. Imagine Dempsey roaring out at him or Marciano storming over in the first round. Of course Wlad has the skill and power to stop them, but he had the skill and power to wipe out Sanders, Williamson, Brewster.....and yet he does not like that pressure and aggressiveness.

Who the hell as Wlad beaten of note? The division is the worst it has been seen pre Dempsey.

[cross_trainer]

So, why he eat so much and try to take weight? because of his opponent was so much bigger and stronger...he knew he have to do it...

Of course, though Byrd was a lightheavyweight rather than a true heavyweight. He wouldn't have needed it as much if he started out at 200 lbs. And isn't it equally logical to assume that guys like Ali and Liston would not be dieting as much if they went against heavyweights closer to their own size?

My position is this--extra weight helps, but not as much as many on here are saying. After 200 lbs., it still helps, but it helps less and less as you pass that barrier. There's no real difference between a 220 lb. man's power and a 240 lb. man's power if they are both "punchers".

Guys like Bonavena aren't quite on the same level as Wlad or Peter when it comes to punching power, but they still pack a heck of a punch. And because they're smaller, they're also faster and more coordinated, which helps to offset any power loss from smaller size.

[Sakura]

Of course, though Byrd was a lightheavyweight rather than a true heavyweight. He wouldn't have needed it as much if he started out at 200 lbs. And isn't it equally logical to assume that guys like Ali and Liston would not be dieting as much if they went against heavyweights closer to their own size?

My position is this--extra weight helps, but not as much as many on here are saying. After 200 lbs., it still helps, but it helps less and less as you pass that barrier. There's no real difference between a 220 lb. man's power and a 240 lb. man's power if they are both "punchers".

Guys like Bonavena aren't quite on the same level as Wlad or Peter when it comes to punching power, but they still pack a heck of a punch. And because they're smaller, they're also faster and more coordinated, which helps to offset any power loss from smaller size.
These guy's don't are even close same level than Klitchkos or Lewis are/were...tell me, who cruiser can win wladimir?

[rydersonthestorm]

I think david haye can beat wlad, and the wlad/vitali are not anywhere near the level of lennox lewis.

[cross_trainer]

These guy's don't are even close same level than Klitchkos or Lewis are/were...tell me, who cruiser can win wladimir?

Modern cruiserweights? Haye and a prime Mormeck could. Since Mormeck is no longer in his prime, and Haye is untested, we may have to wait a little while before my thoughts can be confirmed.

A 190 lb. Holyfield could do it as well.

[box03]

By that chin standard, neither did Louis or Lewis. But Joe and Lennox did pretty good in their eras :tong

Any good punching fighter near 200 lbs that catches a fighter 250+ lbs flush can put them on queer* street.
Give us another "insight" :roll:

* Btw, you very often manage to get in homosexual references in your posts. Do you realize that? :fight Wlad hit the canvas what 11 times in his career been knocked out 3 times, and hes what 31 or 32. Lewis was knocked out 2 times in his career was down less than half of Wlads number. Louis was knocked out 2 times in his career and the 2nd one came against Marciano well past his prime when he was close too 40. Im far from gay Decker unlike your favorite boxer Wlad, Im sure you have that picture they did for BOSS of Wlad and his brother playing with each other naked.:lol:

[Sakura]

I think david haye can beat wlad, and the wlad/vitali are not anywhere near the level of lennox lewis.

Really. injured vitaly give old Lewis quite good fight..don't you think so?

Wlad was always better boxer..

[box03]

Yeah most. Dempsey, Marciano and Louis have more than enough fire power to take Wlad. Wlad could also take them, but the reality is that he often freezes when hit and attacked. Even in fights he has gone on to win like Peter and Williamson he got tagged and stiffened up, panicked and lost composure.

If that happened against someone like Louis he is done. Imagine Dempsey roaring out at him or Marciano storming over in the first round. Of course Wlad has the skill and power to stop them, but he had the skill and power to wipe out Sanders, Williamson, Brewster.....and yet he does not like that pressure and aggressiveness.

Who the hell as Wlad beaten of note? The division is the worst it has been seen pre Dempsey. I couldve of said it any better myself, Wlads chin is his biggest weakness and would be easily exposed by an ATG like Marciano or Dempsey.:good

[Sakura]

Wlad hit the canvas what 11 times in his career been knocked out 3 times, and hes what 31 or 32. Lewis was knocked 2 times in his career was down less than half of Wlads number. Louis was knocked out 2 times in his career and the 2nd one came against Marciano well past his prime when he was close too 40. Im far from gay Decker unlike your favorite boxer Wlad, Im sure you have that picture they did for BOSS of Wlad and his brother playing with each other naked.:lol:

Lewis career:won 41 (KO 32) + lost 2 (KO 2) + drawn 1 = 44biography [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Wlad Klitchko: won 49 (KO 44) + lost 3 (KO 3) + drawn 0 = 52biography [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[Decker]

I left Valuev out because he has a glandular disorder of some kind that's creating his gigantism. Wlad and Vitali are definitely bigger, but then again Oscar wasn't exactly massive in his own time period either. The Klitschkos (with whom large size clearly runs in the family, a la the Baer Brothers) are the same size as Bonavena contemporary Ernie Terrell. OMG :shock: CT, Terrell was spindly compared to K bros ! Earnie at 6'6" weighed in the low 200s in his prime. I'm surprised at you. Time for a drink and a nap. :D

Bonavena was 204 lbs. when in top condition, and was smaller than many of the top heavyweights of his day. Ibragimov, Chagaev, and Brewster are in the same position, but they have more fat on them than Bonavena even at their best weights (and are not built like tanks). Like I said, there isn't much of a difference between these guys. All are around 220-230, and with a few pounds of weightloss would look strikingly similar to Oscar.Well, we'll just have to agree on a mild disagreement here. I think all 3 current HWs noted above would beat Ringo more often than not. Btw, I'm not "dissing" Oscar or Joe F (similar sized HWs) when I discuss their fights. The good SHWs of today would have too much fire power for the smaller HWs of yester year.

[cross_trainer]

OMG :shock: CT, Terrell was spindly compared to K bros ! Earnie at 6'6" weighed in the low 200s in his prime. I'm surprised at you. Time for a drink and a nap. :D .

This is the result of different training methods. He was 6'6" 210, the Klitschkos are 6'7" and 240/250. In both cases, they're about the same weight as the "big" heavyweights of their respective eras like Peter.

I never denied that heavyweights are a little bigger today. It's inevitable, given the popularity of weight training and the 12 round distance rather than 15. But yesteryear's heavies aren't much shorter, just less weight-trained.

You'll agree that Valuev is an anomaly in any era due to the gigantism?


Well, we'll just have to agree on a mild disagreement here. I think all 3 current HWs noted above would beat Ringo more often than not. Btw, I'm not "dissing" Oscar or Joe F (similar sized HWs) when I discuss their fights. The good SHWs of today would have too much fire power for the smaller HWs of yester year.

Well, Ringo was pretty successful against fighters the same size as those listed above (he was himself about the same size), and he looks pretty good on film, especially compared to Ibragimov.

Leaving the Klitschkos and Valuev aside for a moment...Why would Ibragimov/Chagaev/Valuev win?

[cross_trainer]

Lewis career:won 41 (KO 32) + lost 2 (KO 2) + drawn 1 = 44biography [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Wlad Klitchko: won 49 (KO 44) + lost 3 (KO 3) + drawn 0 = 52biography [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Rocky Marciano: won 49 (KO 43) + lost 0 (KO 0) + drawn 0 = 49

Tye Fields: won 39 (KO 35) + lost 1 (KO 1) + drawn 0 = 40

[box03]

Lewis career:won 41 (KO 32) + lost 2 (KO 2) + drawn 1 = 44biography [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Wlad Klitchko: won 49 (KO 44) + lost 3 (KO 3) + drawn 0 = 52biography [Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) Yeah, so what. And Valuev has a better looking record than the both of them, I guess that makes him better than the both of them right.:rofl

[Decker]

... Im far from gay Decker unlike your favorite boxer Wlad, Im sure you have that picture they did for BOSS of Wlad and his brother playing with each other naked.:lol: Well I won't mention that I have a close relative who's a psychiatrist :lol: But who needs to ask him about your posts. Seriously, and you're not the only one here with the frequent homo refs, many would infer that you just might be. Well, you might be 100% straight - like me.
And no I don't have or even look at pix of the K bros nude*, but you certainly have !:bananamaniac

* Except when ESB macho men post them here :tong

[Sakura]

Rocky Marciano: won 49 (KO 43) + lost 0 (KO 0) + drawn 0 = 49

Tye Fields: won 39 (KO 35) + lost 1 (KO 1) + drawn 0 = 40


So what? That guy has been tittle fights many times to..and his career still continue

[rydersonthestorm]

Vitali gave a lennox lewis that had fought one before in the previous 26 months and was about to retire, if he fought lewis a few years before i am not sure if the fight would have been as close. Also wlad has fought much poorer opponents to lewis so comparing there records of wins and loses is stupid.

[box03]

Well I won't mention that I have a close relative who's a psychiatrist :lol: But who needs to ask him about your posts. Seriously, and you're not the only one here with the frequent homo refs, many would infer that you just might be. Well, you might be 100% straight - like me.
And no I don't have or even look at pix of the K bros nude*, but you certainly have !:bananamaniac

* Except when ESB macho men post them here :tong The first time I even seen the pictures are when someone posted them about a month ago, so Im gay for calling your idol Wlad gay, that makes no sense.

[Strike]

So what? That guy has been tittle fights many times to..and his career still continue

Yeah I think you missed the point, which was that showing records does not mean much if you don't take into account opposition. Wlads opposition is in the worst era of Heavyweight boxing since the turn of the 20th Century.

[Sakura]

The first time I even seen the pictures are when someone posted them about a month ago, so Im gay for calling idol Wlad gay, that makes no sense.

Gay is gay who really cares:yep

[Decker]

This is the result of different training methods. He was 6'6" 210, the Klitschkos are 6'7" and 240/250. In both cases, they're about the same weight as the "big" heavyweights of their respective eras like Peter.

I never denied that heavyweights are a little bigger today. It's inevitable, given the popularity of weight training and the 12 round distance rather than 15. But yesteryear's heavies aren't much shorter, just less weight-trained. Your comments are better here. I'd say it's partly due to different trianing methods. K bros/LL are just bigger men than Earnie.

You'll agree that Valuev is an anomaly in any era due to the gigantism?Of course.

Well, Ringo was pretty successful against fighters the same size as those listed above (he was himself about the same size), and he looks pretty good on film, especially compared to Ibragimov.

Leaving the Klitschkos and Valuev aside for a moment...Why would Ibragimov/Chagaev/Valuev win? I think they're more skilled - maybe not much more. Ringo was a tough, awkward sob, but his style seemed fairly one dimensional to me. I'd heavily favor Ruslan over Oscar, not as much Iggy.

Btw, you said to leave aside Valuev, then right after included him when asking me about fighters chances vs OB. My drink and nap advise was not far off ! In fact I may be off to do the same myself :cool:

[Sakura]

Yeah I think you missed the point, which was that showing records does not mean much if you don't take into account opposition. Wlads opposition is in the worst era of Heavyweight boxing since the turn of the 20th Century.

..and who says that? It's only matter of opinion..don't you think so...

[box03]

Gay is gay who really cares:yep Strike look at the shirt your boy Wlads wearing in your avatar, you cant honestly tell me hes not gay?:rofl

[Decker]

The first time I even seen the pictures are when someone posted them about a month ago, so Im gay for calling your idol Wlad gay, that makes no sense.Look, you and others use frequent gay references in your posts. It's not uncommon here on ESB - not sure why fans refer to a fighter they don't like as gay. Re those pix of K bros - and I've said this before - :think maybe some female fans might appreciate them?

As for Wlad being my idol, he's not much more of an "idol" to me than LL or Duran or other fighters I've liked over the years. So Peter is your idol. Hope your hero can handle Jameel "I fold up big time" McCline :yep

[box03]

Look, you and others use frequent gay references in your posts. It's not uncommon here on ESB - not sure why fans refer to a fighter they don't like as gay. Re those pix of K bros - and I've said this before - :think maybe some female fans might appreciate them?

As for Wlad being my idol, he's not much more of an "idol" to me than LL or Duran or other fighters I've liked over the years. So Peter is your idol. Hope your hero can handle Jameel "I fold up big time" McCline :yep Peter is not my idol, he is one of best of the shit heavywieght division. Im sure when you hangout with your friends, you say so and so looks gay, or damn that fights canceled thats gay. I dont know if Wlads gay personally, but if I had to guess I would give it at least a 50/50.:yep

[Sakura]

Strike look at the shirt your boy Wlads wearing in your avatar, you can honestly tell me hes not gay?:rofl

Like i say'ed who really cares! Personally i dont think his gay, his just east european!

[Strike]

..and who says that? It's only matter of opinion..don't you think so...

To an extent it is opinion but then there are simple facts like also rans of the 90s such as Briggs coming back older, slower and with less stamina winning world titles.

And lets bear in mind it is the opinion of pretty much every boxing pundit, historian, ex pro, and so on....