Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history?

[janitor]

Reading contemporary articles it sems to me that Harry Wills was a huge figure in the boxing world while he was the top contender, but that as soon as he lost to Jack Sharkey there was a movment to talk down his career.

An article priinted in the run up to Wills Sharkey

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Sharkeys observations:


With his elbow on the mahogany counter of his establishment, Sharkey reminisced about his long fisticuffs career. He pointed out former opponents from among the photographs which clutter the walls of the Ringside. When he noticed Joe Louis' it called to mind the previous brown menace. Harry Wills.

"It was in October, 1926 that I removed Wills from the ring game. The papers were as filled with him at the time as they are today with the Brown Bomber. I was pretty busy that year. With not six weeks between that fight and my go with George Godfrey, I had to be in pretty good shape. Godfrey and Wills were the leading contenders of the day, and when I eliminated them the way was clear for Dempsey to win the championships."

The aftermath of Wills loss to Sharkey.

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[mcvey]

Reading contemporary articles it sems to me that Harry Wills was a huge figure in the boxing world while he was the top contender, but that as soon as he lost to Jack Sharkey there was a movment to talk down his career.

An article priinted in the run up to Wills Sharkey

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Sharkeys observations:


With his elbow on the mahogany counter of his establishment, Sharkey reminisced about his long fisticuffs career. He pointed out former opponents from among the photographs which clutter the walls of the Ringside. When he noticed Joe Louis' it called to mind the previous brown menace. Harry Wills.

"It was in October, 1926 that I removed Wills from the ring game. The papers were as filled with him at the time as they are today with the Brown Bomber. I was pretty busy that year. With not six weeks between that fight and my go with George Godfrey, I had to be in pretty good shape. Godfrey and Wills were the leading contenders of the day, and when I eliminated them the way was clear for Dempsey to win the championships."

The aftermath of Wills loss to Sharkey.

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This deserves to be a well posted thread .
Sharkey ,being interviewed in Heller's "In This Corner",admitted that Wills was past prime when he got to him,I just some times wonder if ,Langford,Jeanette,et al ,were not in the same boat?
Maybe ,just maybe,Wills caught some of these legends at the right time?
Comparative results with Dempsey, vis a vis, common opponents,seem to flatter Jack.

[Flea Man]

Hmmm......

I was of the same thought; I believed Wills to be a very respected fighter, despite his race. I didn't realise they were so out of hand to him, and I didn't realise he was perceived as a fighter that needed to be 'eliminated'.

Although to be fair, was this publication particularly extreme? Are there any other accounts that maybe paint Wills in a more favourable light?

[djanders]

No doubt Wills was a hell of a fighter. A good case could be made for including him in an all-time top 15 Heavyweight list. I think Dempsey would have beaten him, though it wouldn't have been an easy fight...just my opinion. I do agree that he doesn't get the credit he deserves now.

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[TheGreatA]

The newspapers at the time seemed to be biased against Harry Wills. After he lost to Sharkey, it was felt that he had been "exposed" and that he was never any good to begin with. There were no mentions of him being close to 40 years of age.

[janitor]

Although to be fair, was this publication particularly extreme? Are there any other accounts that maybe paint Wills in a more favourable light?

Let me just say that you could have found a good few other publications like it, and perhaps the same number that contradicted it.

One thing that does strike me, is that Wills was as you say seen as a fighter who needed to be eliminated, and when he was the same papers that had seen him as a menace, moved to downgrade his career and sweep it under the carpet.

When you start learning about boxing history Wills is not a fighter you hear much about but the deeper you dig the taller he looms.

[PowerPuncher]

Pretty much, not many people know about Wills, he was 1 of the last top20 HWs I learned about

[janitor]

Pretty much, not many people know about Wills, he was 1 of the last top20 HWs I learned about

Me too.

[Flea Man]

Let me just say that you could have found a good few other publications like it, and perhaps the same number that contradicted it.

One thing that does strike me, is that Wills was as you say seen as a fighter who needed to be eliminated, and when he was the same papers that had seen him as a menace, moved to downgrade his career and sweep it under the carpet.

When you start learning about boxing history Wills is not a fighter you hear much about but the deeper you dig the taller he looms.


Agreed. It's McGrain that got me interested in him, I saw him on his top 10 Heavy list and was like, who's that? I'd heard of Harry Wills but didn't realise how good he was, once you start reading about him, delving into his resume....impressive stuff. A lock for a top 20 Heavyweight list IMO.

[janitor]

[quote=mcvey;6058978]This deserves to be a well posted thread .


Its getting there.


Sharkey ,being interviewed in Heller's "In This Corner",admitted that Wills was past prime when he got to him,I just some times wonder if ,Langford,Jeanette,et al ,were not in the same boat?


Personaly I think they were, but on the other hand Wills got thrown in with them while he was quite green, early in his career.

Comparative results with Dempsey, vis a vis, common opponents,seem to flatter Jack.

We have spilled a lot of ink on this site over whether Wills could have beaten Dempsey, and we have both come down in the Dempsey camp. I don't want to restart that debate as much as to discuss how Wills was treated by the contemporary press.

On a side note, it is almost ironic that the issue has become Dempsey defending against Wills.

In a world with no colour bar Wills would almost certainly have held the title when Dempsey was challenging for it, and then the roles are reversed.

[Bokaj]

It's ironic that not only contemprorary papers, but some still today use the loss to Sharkey as an argument that Wills wasn't really all that. He was one years older than Ali was when he lost to Leon "Neon" Spinks, for god's sake. 37 years was ancient back then.

[janitor]

It's ironic that not only contemprorary papers, but some still today use the loss to Sharkey as an argument that Wills wasn't really all that. He was one years older than Ali was when he lost to Leon "Neon" Spinks, for god's sake. 37 years was ancient back then.

What is interesting is that some papers assumed Dempsey had retired during his 3 year sabatical, and that made Wills almost a Jack Johnson scale threat.

[he grant]

Wills was a terrific fighter who defeated much better opposition than Dempsey. Eventhough he was much older, Dempsey and Team clearly ducked him ... What else is there to say except the quote from of all people John L. Sullivan .. (paraphrased) whenever the color line is drawn there is a white fighter ducking a black man ...

I give Shaqrkey credit for fighting Wills and Godfrey ... Let's keep in mind Wills was puching 37 and Sharkey was in his prime .. as far as Godfrey goes, ity was a razor close decision given to a white man in Boston in the 1920's ... I have not seen the fight but I am curious ...

[Flea Man]

Was Doc Kearns blacklisted for refusing to allow Dempsey to fight Wills though? Which makes me assume that if not the media than the Boxing bodies recognised his place.

[Seamus]

I think Wills got shafted by historical circumstances, but he was tailor made for a motivated Dempsey. Big, slow of foot, a bit plodding and ponderous. Certainly no walk in the park, but just the wrong style.

That said, a much less skilled fighter who was also big and ponderous almost ended Dempsey's reign so it was a historical injustice that he didn't get the chance to fight.

[My2Sense]

Was Doc Kearns blacklisted for refusing to allow Dempsey to fight Wills though?

Yes, he was barred from attending NY venues. If i remember right, when Mickey Walker fought Harry Greb at the Polo Grounds, he had to fight without Kearns in his corner.

[Flea Man]

Yes, he was barred from attending in NY venues. If i remember right, when Mickey Walker fought Harry Greb at the Polo Grounds, he had to fight without Kearns in his corner.

Yep, you've re-jigged my memory thats where I read it.

So why was Wills well regarded by 'Boxing people', who I assume had the same prejudices as the media? Why was Dempsey made an example or for not fighting him if Wills was thought of as these articles project?

Any info would be much appreciated:good

[My2Sense]

So why was Wills well regarded by 'Boxing people', who I assume had the same prejudices as the media? Why was Dempsey made an example or for not fighting him if Wills was thought of as these articles project?

Any info would be much appreciated:good

I don't know exactly who among boxing fans or the media shared prejudices. It was the media in fact, particularly in and around NY, that was very instrumental in pressuring the NY commission to mandate a fight between Dempsey and Wills. The commission had previously mandated a fight between them a few years earlier, but after the fight was signed and scheduled, the commission basically chickened out and scrapped it, and Dempsey went on to fight Firpo instead. Eventually, the commission caved to public and media pressure to re-mandate the fight, and that's what led to the controversy of 1924-26.

Also, not all contemporary sources shared a high regard for Wills' quality. Some did trumpet him as being genuinely great, but others criticized him for milking his ranking and avoiding other top contenders, and a number of his performances in the early and mid '20s were criticized as dull, ugly maul-fests. However, nearly all reports, regardless of what they thought of Wills' actual quality, agreed that he was the legitimate #1 contender and had been for some time, and it was that that unified them in their push to get him his well-deserved title shot.

[Flea Man]

Thanks.

[janitor]

So why was Wills well regarded by 'Boxing people', who I assume had the same prejudices as the media? Why was Dempsey made an example or for not fighting him if Wills was thought of as these articles project?


As with Jack Johnson, Wills divided contemporary opinion.

Whatever the predudices of the day, fight fans will tend to want to see the two best contenders of the day face off. This always resulted in resistance to the colour line.

On top of that certain sections of the press and sanctioning bodies wanted to be seen as being above the colour line.

We see the same trends with Peter Jackson, Jack Johnson, Sam Langford and even Joe Louis. The crucial and perhaps telling difference is that Harry Wills is the only one of the five who was largley forgotten when his prime ended. Its almost like his career was swept under the carpet.

[burt bienstock]

It is difficult to rate Harry Wills, In his prime he was a tall heavyweight for his times, and was the eqal of Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette,etc.Probably in the style of Earnie Terrell, of later days. His style was probably made for young Dempsey, a large and slowish target,for the prime Manassa Mauler....Sidenote,As a young man, I would go to the wonderful Stillmans Gym weekly, in the 1940's, Oh was it paradise for me, and several times I would see a large grey headed man,in the seats watching the boxers....It was the old heavyweight Harry Wills, sitting just a few seats away from me......I loved Stillmans Gym, on 8th Ave, N.Y.C......Memories, and what stories.......

[burt bienstock]

Hey Bokaj, Is"nt a picture of the young Battling Nelson on your logo?. If it is Battling Nelson, you chose the toughest lightweight that ever lived....

[he grant]

Burt, would love to hear about the Stillman days ...

[Bokaj]

Hey Bokaj, Is"nt a picture of the young Battling Nelson on your logo?. If it is Battling Nelson, you chose the toughest lightweight that ever lived....

It is indeed a portrait of the abysmal brute as a young man.

[janitor]

It is difficult to rate Harry Wills, In his prime he was a tall heavyweight for his times, and was the eqal of Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette,etc.Probably in the style of Earnie Terrell, of later days. His style was probably made for young Dempsey, a large and slowish target,for the prime Manassa Mauler....Sidenote,As a young man, I would go to the wonderful Stillmans Gym weekly, in the 1940's, Oh was it paradise for me, and several times I would see a large grey headed man,in the seats watching the boxers....It was the old heavyweight Harry Wills, sitting just a few seats away from me......I loved Stillmans Gym, on 8th Ave, N.Y.C......Memories, and what stories.......

Bet you wish you had taken the oportunity to ask him a few questions.

[burt bienstock]

he grant, thank you for your interest in the old "M ECCA" of training gyms, Stillmans gym....I must have been in Stillmans Gym,200 or more times in the 1940,s decade, and I cherish the memories of those halycon days.....So many thoughts flood my mind, so where to start?. We watched the greatest fighters,of that golden age, training in two rings, at the same times. There were about seven or eightrows of seats, for the spectators, many of them top fighters,of the day, finished with their sparring, and also former champs of the past, seated right next to you.....I was thrilled as a youngster , being in the close company of these great fighters, who the day before I would read about in the sport pages......Lou Stillman would be seated on a high stool chair with a stogie in his mouth, cursing and intoducing the boxers,entering the rings...He ran a tough ship....I would see the top trainers,like Whitey Bimstein, Freddy Brown, Ray Arcel, Chickie Ferrera,etc.....There were telephones in the back wall ringing all the time. On the upper floor fighters would hit the heavy bags, and shadow box,etc I must have seen all the greats of the time, with the notable exception of Joe Louis.... Saw Jack Dempsey once.... People stared at him in awe, as I did....Enough for now...Burt

[GPater11093]

What did Fleischer think of Wills?

[The Morlocks]

Yep, you've re-jigged my memory thats where I read it.

So why was Wills well regarded by 'Boxing people', who I assume had the same prejudices as the media? Why was Dempsey made an example or for not fighting him if Wills was thought of as these articles project?

Any info would be much appreciated:good
Dempsey would have fought anyone, but Tex Richard swore after the trouble of the Johnson-Jeffries fight :hi:and aftermath, that he would never promote another White-Black heavy title fight again.

[The Morlocks]

It is indeed a portrait of the abysmal brute as a young man.
the best nickname ever "The Abysmal Brute":blurp

[The Morlocks]

Reading contemporary articles it sems to me that Harry Wills was a huge figure in the boxing world while he was the top contender, but that as soon as he lost to Jack Sharkey there was a movment to talk down his career.

An article priinted in the run up to Wills Sharkey

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Sharkeys observations:


With his elbow on the mahogany counter of his establishment, Sharkey reminisced about his long fisticuffs career. He pointed out former opponents from among the photographs which clutter the walls of the Ringside. When he noticed Joe Louis' it called to mind the previous brown menace. Harry Wills.

"It was in October, 1926 that I removed Wills from the ring game. The papers were as filled with him at the time as they are today with the Brown Bomber. I was pretty busy that year. With not six weeks between that fight and my go with George Godfrey, I had to be in pretty good shape. Godfrey and Wills were the leading contenders of the day, and when I eliminated them the way was clear for Dempsey to win the championships."

The aftermath of Wills loss to Sharkey.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
and don't forget that except for John Henry Lewis, Joe Louis wouldn't defend against the terrofic black fighters of his era either until after the war he chose what was thought to be a pasthisprime Walcott.:deal

[TheGreatA]

and don't forget that except for John Henry Lewis, Joe Louis wouldn't defend against the terrofic black fighters of his era either until after the war he chose what was thought to be a pasthisprime Walcott.:deal

I don't think there were any terrific black fighters around though.

[burt bienstock]

Janitor, at that time I was a youth,watching all these great fighters a shoulder away from me....I had heard about Harry Wills before, but did not know much about him from an historical perspective, as I do now....Besides16 or 17 year old then ,I was awed by these famous boxers, and observed rather than talked....Tis a pity that youth is wasted on the young.......

[burt bienstock]

The Morlocks, Funny,you should mention John Henry Lewis,former great Light Heavyweight champion, who was kod by the Brown Bomber in 1939....As ayoung boy my family lived next door to one of John Henry Lewis's trainors...That is where I developed my life long love of boxing...He would make me a boy of 8 or 9 years old spar with Lewis's stablemates, who would be in his apartment almost nightly...Made me eat salads and oil every supper, a lifelong habit since...I never saw John Henry visit, but would hear stories about him from my father....Lewis retired in 1939, after his friend Joe Louis Ko,d him in one round...Lewis was virtually blind by then.....

[The Morlocks]

I don't think there were any terrific black fighters around though.
bullshit! as many as there are now.

[The Morlocks]

The Morlocks, Funny,you should mention John Henry Lewis,former great Light Heavyweight champion, who was kod by the Brown Bomber in 1939....As ayoung boy my family lived next door to one of John Henry Lewis's trainors...That is where I developed my life long love of boxing...He would make me a boy of 8 or 9 years old spar with Lewis's stablemates, who would be in his apartment almost nightly...Made me eat salads and oil every supper, a lifelong habit since...I never saw John Henry visit, but would hear stories about him from my father....Lewis retired in 1939, after his friend Joe Louis Ko,d him in one round...Lewis was virtually blind by then.....
great story and terrific experience:good

[janitor]

bullshit! as many as there are now.

Probably more at heavyweight.

[TheGreatA]

bullshit! as many as there are now.

Such as?

I agree that the amount of terrific black fighters then is the same as now. One or two at best.

[McGrain]

I don't think there were any terrific black fighters around though.


I sure do agree with you.

Leroy Haynes, Lorenzo Pack, Jack Trammell, Tiger Jack Fox, Lee Q Murray, Curtis Shepard...these are the top black fighters of Louis's era and none of them really became firmly established as #1. Having said that, Louis fought weaker white fighters.

[janitor]

I sure do agree with you.

Leroy Haynes, Lorenzo Pack, Jack Trammell, Tiger Jack Fox, Lee Q Murray, Curtis Shepard...these are the top black fighters of Louis's era and none of them really became firmly established as #1. Having said that, Louis fought weaker white fighters.

Lee Q Murray is a guy who might have established himself as an outstanding challenger with better conections.

Perhaps comparable to sombody like Lou Nova when he was the #1 challenger.

[McGrain]

Lee Q Murray is a guy who might have established himself as an outstanding challenger with better conections.

Perhaps comparable to sombody like Lou Nova when he was the #1 challenger.


I'd say he was arguably better than Nova. Certainly the stand-out from those boys.

[janitor]

I'd say he was arguably better than Nova. Certainly the stand-out from those boys.

A bit of clever matchmaking could have done wonders for him.

Put him in with some of the top white contenders who had the style to suit him (excluding Bob Pastor obviously) and you could have built him up.

[Seamus]

I'm seeing a lot of "could have" and "might" in these iron clad arguments regarding the paucity of black challengers to Louis. There weren't any decent white challengers mid-80's to mid-90's... Shit happens.

[janitor]

I'm seeing a lot of "could have" and "might" in these iron clad arguments regarding the paucity of black challengers to Louis. There weren't any decent white challengers mid-80's to mid-90's... Shit happens.

I don't think that the black challengers of Louis's era enjoyed anything like a level playing field.

If all of them had been white then I suspect that at least a couple more would have fought Louis.

A white Elmer Ray or Le Q Murray would ahve been a promotors dream.

Even a white Curtis Shepard would have put bums on seats.

[My2Sense]

and don't forget that except for John Henry Lewis, Joe Louis wouldn't defend against the terrofic black fighters of his era either until after the war he chose what was thought to be a pasthisprime Walcott.:deal

That's because he was in the military when most of what terrific black fighters there were were at their peaks. Before the war, the vast majority of HW contenders (including all #1 contenders) were white. After the war, the #1 contenders in succession were Conn, then Mauriello, then Walcott, and Louis fought them in exactly that order.


bullshit! as many as there are now.

Now? :lol: That would be ZERO.

[Flea Man]

The Morlocks is a horrifically bad and retarded poster.

[The Morlocks]

:lol:Such as?

I agree that the amount of terrific black fighters then is the same as now. One or two at best.

[The Morlocks]

The Morlocks is a horrifically bad and retarded poster.
least I know my facts and don't get them off boxrec or youtube. I've seen the fighters live, read and wrote about them for years Princess Fleaman. Anybody can do the shit you do. Look up boxrec, watch a rd. or two of youtube and call myself an expert. Ain't that how you did it? You know you did. I've dealt w/ little know-a-little, pretenders like you all my life. You're about as shallow as a stream when it comes to boxing knowledge and if you look up the facts and read BOOKS for the history of the sport (bios included a LOT) instead of surfing the internet for your facts, you'll see I'm right. But you don't do that. Do ya' Princess. :good

[The Morlocks]

Are you still mad because I'm anti-gay and put down the gay life you tried to so unably defend in the post about Emile Griffith? Hey, that's your choice, but don't bring your lack of facts bullshit at me, you'll lose. That's how you do it isn't it? You don't have the breadth or depth of knowledge in the sport, so you just put others down. You are the real joke my freind. I've never seen you have an origin idea that you learned thru experience except your speech on where boxing was at. And you probably stole those ideas from just reading other posters.

[enquirer]

Lets chill boys,this is an internet forum right?
We are all entitled to our opinions,no?

[The Morlocks]

Lets chill boys,this is an internet forum right?
We are all entitled to our opinions,no?
I agree, but when the Princess sits back and puts down others and myself out of nowhere, well then it is on. But he could always complain to the ones who watch over these pages again.

[Flea Man]

I agree, but when the Princess sits back and puts down others and myself out of nowhere, well then it is on. But he could always complain to the ones who watch over these pages again.

as much as you have the right to your opinions, I have the right to call you a retard:good

Also, the youtube thing ain't even your insult, you unoriginal cunt:deal

[The Morlocks]

as much as you have the right to your opinions, I have the right to call you a retard:good

Also, the youtube thing ain't even your insult, you unoriginal cunt:deal
Are you telling me Princess, that I have to stand in line to insult you. LMFAO. You the man PRincess, and nobdy better forget it.

[Seamus]

I don't think that the black challengers of Louis's era enjoyed anything like a level playing field.

If all of them had been white then I suspect that at least a couple more would have fought Louis.

A white Elmer Ray or Le Q Murray would ahve been a promotors dream.

Even a white Curtis Shepard would have put bums on seats.


So we should just infer via some quota system that these guys were viable challengers. Granted, Louis did fight some underwhelming folks, but I don't find any evidence that Elmer Ray (despite have the best nom de guerre in the game) would have more than a slim puncher's chance against Louis. He was KO'd by at least a few Louis' victims. Sure, he's better than a Johnny Paycheck but did not exactly suffer from a Wills-complex. And as far as Murray or Sheppard, labeling their careers as inconsistent would be complimentary. Long and short of it, I don't think any of this bunch would have represented the best of the challengers that Louis faced.

[janitor]

[quote=Seamus;6082839]So we should just infer via some quota system that these guys were viable challengers. Granted, Louis did fight some underwhelming folks, but I don't find any evidence that Elmer Ray (despite have the best nom de guerre in the game) would have more than a slim puncher's chance against Louis. He was KO'd by at least a few Louis' victims. Sure, he's better than a Johnny Paycheck but did not exactly suffer from a Wills-complex.

Louis would almost certainly have smashed Elmer Ray, but it is the kind of fight between two big punchers that could have got some public interest.

And as far as Murray or Sheppard, labeling their careers as inconsistent would be complimentary. Long and short of it, I don't think any of this bunch would have represented the best of the challengers that Louis faced.

I think that Schmeling and Walcott were better than any of them, but given the rate that Louis was working his way through the best white challengers, they could have made a usefull adition to the era.

[Seamus]

[quote]

Louis would almost certainly have smashed Elmer Ray, but it is the kind of fight between two big punchers that could have got some public interest.



I think that Schmeling and Walcott were better than any of them, but given the rate that Louis was working his way through the best white challengers, they could have made a usefull adition to the era.

No disagreement here.

[Bummy Davis]

[quote]

Louis would almost certainly have smashed Elmer Ray, but it is the kind of fight between two big punchers that could have got some public interest.



I think that Schmeling and Walcott were better than any of them, but given the rate that Louis was working his way through the best white challengers, they could have made a usefull adition to the era.


I agree