joe Frazier's hatred of Ali justified?

[fg2227]

what do you think?

Should he now let it go?

[Mr Butt]

it is justified

should he let it go i dont i am not sure if a could

[McGrain]

Of course he should let it go, but if letting go of hatred was simply a matter of common sense there would be none of it anywhere in the world.

Not justified, but easily explained and understandable.

[Bill1234]

I think it was justified. Frazier helped Ali get back into the fight business and lent him money, then Ali turns around and is the harshest verbally on Frazier than he ever was to anybody and torments him with things that were just flat out over the line. Calling Frazier an Uncle Tom was too far. Calling him a gorrilla was borderline. Ali's antics caused Frazier's kids to be made fun of in school. Things like that all combined will create a seriously angry person, and for good reason.

As for Frazier dropping it by now, I'm still sort of borderline. I guess he shouldn't still resent him the way he does, but he has every right to remain bitter.

[burt bienstock]

Hell yes..... To be called an "uncle Tom",by Ali, was damn mean,of Ali...Especially when Joe Frazier,a truly nice guy, befriended Ali, when Clay was just starting out...Picture the classy and dignified Joe Louis, spouting such verbal garbage.....Louis had CLASS....I first saw the then Clay, in the Golden Gloves finals, 1960 at MSG..The next time I watched Ali fight Joe Frazier, 1971,at MSG....What a night, and was I thrilled when Joe Frazier, beat Ali soundly....Yes score one for the good guys.......

[blacklikesunday]

i think that ali did overstep the mark a little, considering how joe helped him out when he couldn't fight. still maybe there is a reason? only the two of them know that.

i don't think calling him a gorilla was that bad, although maybe its different calling a black man that name. its a shame that joe's kids had to suffer a bit because of it though.

that doco about the last one of their fights was recently on tv here. i was very impressed by joe's kids in that. they bear no malice at all and encourage their dad to move on.

i think some of the things joe has said about ali have been terrible. i laughed when he said that he did a lot to make ali end up the way he is now. joe was slurring his words pretty badly and not walking too freely himself.

one thing i got from that programme was how different ali was then. he seemed to really dislike white people for a start. that is also evident when he was on 'parkinson' in england.
someone on the show said that he was being controlled in his thinking by the nation of islam, and i can believe that. i think at that time he was open to any ideas they told him to believe.

[Rock0052]

While I don't necessarily think it's the healthiest thing for Joe to still be spiteful, I can't say that the man doesn't have legit reason to remain so.

[essexboy]

I think it was justified. Frazier helped Ali get back into the fight business and lent him money, then Ali turns around and is the harshest verbally on Frazier than he ever was to anybody and torments him with things that were just flat out over the line. Calling Frazier an Uncle Tom was too far. Calling him a gorrilla was borderline. Ali's antics caused Frazier's kids to be made fun of in school. Things like that all combined will create a seriously angry person, and for good reason.

As for Frazier dropping it by now, I'm still sort of borderline. I guess he shouldn't still resent him the way he does, but he has every right to remain bitter.

My thoughts as well.

[janitor]

Is it justified?

Perhaps.

Should he let it go?

Absolutely.

It is not doing him any good apart from anything else.

[Dempsey1238]

Justified?

Yes.

Let it go??

Up to him. Ali did do some hurtful things to Frazier.

[amhlilhaus]

black people who call others 'uncle tom' don't know what they're talking about. uncle tom was a stronger man than those who use his name to demean other blacks.

[red cobra]

Leave Frazier alone about this shit...is Ali some deity or something? Frazier took the verbal shit...and took it and took it..he wasn't a verbal type person to begin with, and he took Ali's abuse in punishment in the ring, as well as dishing it out pretty good himself.
It's his damned business whether to forgive or not...and it's pretty easy for everyone concerned to insist that he let it go..

[punchy]

Ali treated Frazier dreadful should he let it go it is up to him, it is part of life that we sometimes just don't like someone. As an aside on a head to head basis I see Frazier ahead of Ali just slightly, I have always thought that if the ref had not let Ali hang on how he did in the two later fights that Frazier would have won and stopped Ali not really through a knock out but by exhaustion.

[Kalasinn]

Leave Frazier alone about this shit...is Ali some deity or something? Frazier took the verbal shit...and took it and took it..he wasn't a verbal type person to begin with, and he took Ali's abuse in punishment in the ring, as well as dishing it out pretty good himself.
It's his damned business whether to forgive or not...and it's pretty easy for everyone concerned to insist that he let it go..
I agree completely with red cobra.

Personally if I was Frazier, I must admit that i'd probably hold deep hatred towards Ali till the day I died. Besides I don't think it's as strong as it once was, notice that Frazier is on the brink of tears when he talks of Ali's current condition in "Facing Ali" and says he wishes that Ali could live a normal life like the rest of us.

[Sister Sledge]

I agree completely with red cobra.

Personally if I was Frazier, I must admit that i'd probably hold deep hatred towards Ali till the day I died. Besides I don't think it's as strong as it once was, notice that Frazier is on the brink of tears when he talks of Ali's current condition in "Facing Ali" and says he wishes that Ali could live a normal life like the rest of us.

I just watched Facing Ali the other day. It was brilliant. Frazier still feels pain by the whole Ali situation, but he seems to be trying to come to terms with his feelings.

[Longhhorn71]

Frazier walked thru hell in most of his big fights.

Foreman beat Frazier bad in their 2 fights and they don't
disrespect each other.

So now you are back to Ali....so you have to wonder why
Ali did it in the first place.

[johnmaff36]

i can understand joes resentment but for his own sake he should let it go although i think hes too long in the tooth for that now.
personally speaking, i think most of it was to sell the fights, even though the fights sold themselves, and Ali just went a bit too far. Still, it resulted in them making a lot of money for each other.
Also i recall Ali wasnt too good at taking a bit of ribbing himself as his press conference with Bonavena shows and the old saying is if you cant take it dont give it.
But yeah, frazier should let it go for his own sake above anything else

[Boxed Ears]

You can't tell a man what he's allowed to feel.

[turpinr]

joe is justified in his bitterness.to be called a gorilla and an uncle tom and to have his family ridiculed too is enough.
ali might not have meant all he said but he did say it and it cut deep.

[Bill Butcher]

what do you think?

Should he now let it go?

Yes & no.

I can understand him disliking Ali but its hard to understand why he STILL does after all these yrs... time is the best healer known... obviously not to Joseph tho.

[young griffo]

Yes & no.

I can understand him disliking Ali but its hard to understand why he STILL does after all these yrs... time is the best healer known... obviously not to Joseph tho.
True but look at what Ali has become to the average (ie non boxing fan) person.He's portrayed as a symbol of rebellion,virtue,bravery,pride and latterly kindness and decency whereas Joe's basically portrayed as a figure of bitterness and resentment now.

Fight fans know that these perceptions are way off the mark but the general public doesn't and that would have to piss Joe off.

For every Ghosts of Manilla publication that tries to redress the balance there's a dozen nuthugging tomes by the Thomas Hausers or fucking Davis Millers that again perpetuate the Ali myth industry.

So I don't blame Joe in the slightest for still hating on Ali but by the same token I too wish he would let it go.

[Mendoza]

what do you think?

Should he now let it go?

Quite a few fighters disliked Ali. He had a way of getting under a guys skin, and could trash talk with the best of them. The young Ali was a angry type, and very disrespectful in the ring, standing directly over his fallen opponents and taunting them.

Ali called Frazier an uncle Tom ( Way out of line ), a gorilla, the white man's champion, and an average fighter. Yeah--Frazier has the right to be upset, and Ali never apologized when the two were active boxers.

[Stevie G]

Joe Frazier should move on. Ali admits that he went over the top with him. Joe should be proud of his legacy,and forget the insults,which he must know Ali never meant anyhow.

[thejokerswild]

It's personal matter but the fact that Frazier makes it so public only makes me believe his 'slandering'(:lol:) and belligerant responses are for selfish purposes.

I can't pass opinion on the matter itself but Joe's comments on Muhammad Alis Parkinsons Disease are just disgraceful and no actions can justify that level of indecency.

[round15]

Frazier still feels the pain of what Ali said years ago in promoting their fights and just running his mouth as usual. It's not as severe as it once was because he freely admits to wanting peace with Ali, knowing that the man can't speak as loudly for himself.

It would be easy for Frazier to speak for himself and avenge all the negativity that Ali did to him and other opponents but as he's gotten older, Frazier's been kinder and more respectful of Ali. The nastiest things Ali said were calling Frazier an Uncle Tom, Gorrilla, White Man's champ. Anyone who doesn't see the justification of Frazier being angry, considering the Civil Rights act freshly signed, Viet Nam going on, wouldn't understand what it feels like to be hurt by racist BS. The man helped Ali get his license back only to be back-stabbed with the nastiest of insults. Who wouldn't be little bit angry?

[Curtis Lowe]

I do have a problem with Frazier's anger toward Ali. Ali was an extremely cruel individual most of his life. He turned somewhat humorous later in last years (Earnie Shavers being the "Acorn"). But was a real dickhead to Frazier. Don't believe any of the "just promoting the fight" BS. Ali was an asshole.

[Sister Sledge]

Most of us cannot comprehend what Joe went through in the 70's. Ali had most of the black population in his pocket. Joe was pictured as anti-black to the average black American. It would be tought for anybody to know that everywhere you go, you're going to be percieved as an "Uncle Tom" because one man said you were. That was Ali's power at that time.
When someone hates you and threatens you and your family for no reason, and the guy who started it does nothing to rectify it, that is a wound that just doesn't heal. People should remember that Joe was a victim in all of this. Hatred begats hatred.

[blacklikesunday]

i personally believe part of the reason he dislikes ali so much is that despite frazier's own record ,he and others at that time lived in the shadow of ali. fraziers mainly remembered for his ali fights. holmes is mainly remembered for his loss to ali.

same with holmes. he is more often than not referred to an an ex-sparring partner of ali. in one documentary holmes even says ali is overrated! come on larry, you're just pissed off thats all.

if you weren't around at that time it is hard to imagine how dominant ali was. i don't just mean in boxing, bit in life! i remember everytime ali fought, it was like the world stopped for those 15 rounds! i'm not exaggerating either.
everyone was listening to the fight on their radios, and later on the tv.

so i honestly believe some fighters at the time are pissed off as they truly believe they don't get enough credit. mind you, if it weren't for ali, some fighters wouldn't be as well known as they are.

[Sister Sledge]

i personally believe part of the reason he dislikes ali so much is that despite frazier's own record ,he and others at that time lived in the shadow of ali. fraziers mainly remembered for his ali fights. holmes is mainly remembered for his loss to ali.

same with holmes. he is more often than not referred to an an ex-sparring partner of ali. in one documentary holmes even says ali is overrated! come on larry, you're just pissed off thats all.

if you weren't around at that time it is hard to imagine how dominant ali was. i don't just mean in boxing, bit in life! i remember everytime ali fought, it was like the world stopped for those 15 rounds! i'm not exaggerating either.
everyone was listening to the fight on their radios, and later on the tv.

so i honestly believe some fighters at the time are pissed off as they truly believe they don't get enough credit. mind you, if it weren't for ali, some fighters wouldn't be as well known as they are.

I think in Facing Ali, the fighters put a lot of truth behind their words. I think George and Holmes said, there was jealousy. Ali was good-looking, had a grea body when he trained, and probably had all the best women, and was the most popular. Being jealous is natural.
There is a lot more to Frazier and Ali than petty jealousy. All the other fighters laugh about, but you can see the pain in Frazier's eyes when he talks about it. Joe's pain is not something brought about by jealousy.

[blacklikesunday]

yeah, i do feel for joe. i'm sure he feels betrayal.

[The Wanderer]

I'm a huge Ali fan and yes, Joe has every right to feel angry and bitter. Ali's words and actions, and the actions of a lot of people going along with him (*cough*Gumbel*cough*) were over the line and hurtful to Joe, his family, and his kids. And afterward the vast majority of the general public basically papered over it, in effect told Joe to "suck it up" and lionized the guy who tormented him. Joe has plenty of reason to be bitter.

As for whether he should let it go, I think for his own personal well being he should. Carrying around that much anger and bitterness is not good for a person, especially to do so for so long a time. While I'd certainly love for him to do so, but in the end, only Joe can judge whether to let it go and move on.

[divac]

I'm a huge Ali fan and yes, Joe has every right to feel angry and bitter. Ali's words and actions, and the actions of a lot of people going along with him (*cough*Gumbel*cough*) were over the line and hurtful to Joe, his family, and his kids. And afterward the vast majority of the general public basically papered over it, in effect told Joe to "suck it up" and lionized the guy who tormented him. Joe has plenty of reason to be bitter.

As for whether he should let it go, I think for his own personal well being he should. Carrying around that much anger and bitterness is not good for a person, especially to do so for so long a time. While I'd certainly love for him to do so, but in the end, only Joe can judge whether to let it go and move on.

That documentary on HBO not long ago made me realize why Frazier was and still is so bitter.

After the Thrilla in Manila, if I'm not mistaken Ali had some words with Frazier's young son Marvis, aplogized and let Marvis know that it was just all an act to sell the fight...........
When Marvis let his dad Joe know about the apology, Joe Frazier told his son something that made all the sense in the world to me........." He did'nt aplogize to me son."

[blacklikesunday]

maybe at that particular time, straight after the fight, he thought joe wouldn't let him in his dressing room, let alone listen to him.
however he has had loads of time to apologize to his face though.

[thejokerswild]

Joe has received unmeasurable benefit from winning and losing to Ali far beyond his natural ability.

For most, his encounters with Ali defines him as a fighter and as a man, thats what I think is the double edge sword with Joe.

[Sister Sledge]

Joe has received unmeasurable benefit from winning and losing to Ali far beyond his natural ability.

For most, his encounters with Ali defines him as a fighter and as a man, thats what I think is the double edge sword with Joe.

When the benefits cost you your dignity, the tradeoff is very one-sided.

[thejokerswild]

From a traditional standpoint i truly agree with that.

The main conflict was Joes simple and staunch character and outlook though. He looked infantile next to Alis world experience, complex personality and gift of the gab.

The culture, politics, race problems of the time had Joe Frazier in unfamiliar waters fighting Ali and I dont think he understood that Ali wasn't just fighting the man Frazier but the world superimposed in his opponants.

[ThinBlack]

what do you think?

Should he now let it go?

He was justified in his feelings toward Ali.Frazier should probably let it go, but it's not that simple.

I think in Facing Ali, the fighters put a lot of truth behind their words. I think George and Holmes said, there was jealousy. Ali was good-looking, had a grea body when he trained, and probably had all the best women, and was the most popular. Being jealous is natural.
There is a lot more to Frazier and Ali than petty jealousy. All the other fighters laugh about, but you can see the pain in Frazier's eyes when he talks about it. Joe's pain is not something brought about by jealousy.

Ali also slept with a lot of dogs, as Jim Brown attests.

[Son of Gaul]

He was justified in being angry at the time because Ali said some pretty awful stuff but he should let go now.

[Rattler]

From a traditional standpoint i truly agree with that.

The main conflict was Joes simple and staunch character and outlook though. He looked infantile next to Alis world experience, complex personality and gift of the gab.

The culture, politics, race problems of the time had Joe Frazier in unfamiliar waters fighting Ali and I dont think he understood that Ali wasn't just fighting the man Frazier but the world superimposed in his opponants.

Bullshit. Ali was an asshole to everyone and he knew he was and just kept doing it. Frazier didn't look "infantile" next to Ali, he looked like a regular guy just doing his job. Ali had no reason to go after him like that, but he did, because he knew idiots would lap it up. Ali was a bully and Frazier has no respect for people who treat others like shit, just because they can. The measure of a man's character is in what they do when no one's watching... when push comes to shove, Ali's a dick and Frazier is an honorable man.

[divac]

Does anyone know or has heard of Ali actually apologizing to Joe Frazier????......because I got the sense that a true face to face and sincere apology from Ali himself is all it would have taken for Frazier to let it go.

Could Ali be so egotistical even to this day not to issue that apology?

[thejokerswild]

Bullshit. Ali was an asshole to everyone and he knew he was and just kept doing it. Frazier didn't look "infantile" next to Ali, he looked like a regular guy just doing his job. Ali had no reason to go after him like that, but he did, because he knew idiots would lap it up. Ali was a bully and Frazier has no respect for people who treat others like shit, just because they can. The measure of a man's character is in what they do when no one's watching... when push comes to shove, Ali's a dick and Frazier is an honorable man.
Top reply Rattler. :yep I take your word for it and I believe Frazier to be an honorable man aswell.

I believe Frazier looked relatively 'infantile' next to Ali because Muhammad just wasn't a 'regular guy doing his job', he was clearly a man doing something special as indicated in his renaming by Elijah Muhammad the leader of the nation of Islam.

Ali was a great man in many walks of life, the integrity of his quotations, the history of his achievements and the immensity of his cultural/social and political significance of the times speak for itself when it comes to what is done behind closed doors of a truly good character.

No ones saying he isn't egotisical though, Ali was elitist, but among the elite or his opposition, all great men from Napoleon to Caeser would eat their competition because power is made by power taken. Joe Frazier would of obviously known what he was getting himself into with Ali and couldn't compete with him on some levels.

It's a shame that Ali did it with such little taste and fairness in regards to his boxing oppositions personality and public profile. But if you remember it was the public profile set up by the media to defeat the loud mouthed war dodger. From one point of view it's sort of like shooting a fly with a bazooka when you consider his opponents were just athletes and honorable common men but they were also ideas set up as strawmen for larger issues. Like "whats my name!!! whats my name!!!" to ernie terrell.

If Ali has never really apologised for his dishonoring acts to Frazier in their humble ages then you'd have to see that as filthy mark against Muhammad and also a tick in the box for Frazier being a stubborn old twat who can't get over shit.

[MAG1965]

Frazier's legacy is helped by Ali.

[Jorodz]

short answer is yes. is he long overdue for a reconciliation? yes

[Mendoza]

I think Ali needs to be honest for peace to be made. Promoting the fight is one thing, but in this case Ali meant to hurt Frazier's feelings, and insulted his ethnicity.

If Ali could admit he was cruel in his younger days, and tell Frazier he was wrong, then I think there could be better tidings between the two.

[Unforgiven]

These are questions for Joe Frazier and Joe Frazier alone. None of our concern really.

Personally I think Ali acted a prick, and was a complete asshole.BUT maybe if I was in the public eye people might form a negative opinion of me too. We've all been assholes sometimes, I'm sure.

Frankly, I think there are more important things to concern ourselves with than the morals of the Ali-Frazier animosity, esp. as in essence it's just too punch-drunk broken-down old grandfathers with shaky memories and long-past youthfulness.

And anyway, I think the real moral debate surrounding Ali and Frazier lies somewhere else.

[MAG1965]

Some people compare the Frazier issue with Ali with the Hearns issue with Leonard, but Hearns and Leonard are friends.. Somehow Hearns was able to overlook Leonard. Also Ali was more brutal in press conferenced with Frazier. Hearns also had a whole body of fights and titles after Leonard, so his legacy is also intact without Ray, but with Frazier, most of his legacy is tied to Ali. Some will argue this.

[BUDW]

Yes

[dublynflya]

I think it was justified. Frazier helped Ali get back into the fight business and lent him money, then Ali turns around and is the harshest verbally on Frazier than he ever was to anybody and torments him with things that were just flat out over the line. Calling Frazier an Uncle Tom was too far. Calling him a gorrilla was borderline. Ali's antics caused Frazier's kids to be made fun of in school. Things like that all combined will create a seriously angry person, and for good reason.

As for Frazier dropping it by now, I'm still sort of borderline. I guess he shouldn't still resent him the way he does, but he has every right to remain bitter.

:good Good post Bill!!