Ron Lyle... [Archive] - East Side Boxing Forum

PowerPuncher

10-04-2007, 03:43 PM

Started boxing very late - 27/28? Obviously very big and strong. Very good power. What is underated is his handspeed, combinations and boxing skill.
Against the best fighters he didnt look devastating. Powerwise he has to rank below Shavers (despite beating him), Foreman, Frazier.

His hand speed was excellent for a man his size. He achieved more in his losses than he did in his ways - like Vitali Klitchko

Lets look at his big losses:

Ali - was winning before Ali pulled out the TKO
Foreman - put Foreman down I forget how many times near his prime

Quarry - Quarry proved the better boxer that night, Lyle was only 2 years into his career

Young (Twice) - schooled pretty much

Wins (no great 1s to be fair):

Shavers - battle of the punchers
Banavena - good brawler
Ellis - decent contender probably past it
Bugner/Middleton/Garcia/Kirkman - all decent

The Kurgan

10-04-2007, 03:43 PM

I think he hit just a little less hard than Quarry, judging by their respective performances against Shavers. A top 10 hitter of the decade, certainly, but maybe not quite top 5. With Lyle, it was as much his skill in landing the blows as his actual power that led to his success.

Ranking him is hard: in his prime, he could win or lose against top 10 opposition (Shavers, Quarry) or perform very well against top 5 opposition (Foreman, Ali). He came very close to out-brawling the best brawler of his generation and out-boxing the best boxer.

I rank him at about 7-9 in the decade. He was a top drawer contender who was always overlooked by the media, which couldn't see past his age and quiet demeanour.

PowerPuncher

10-04-2007, 03:45 PM

Having said all this if he started boxing as a teenager - he may have been a truly great fighter

The Kurgan

10-04-2007, 03:46 PM

Shavers - battle of the punchers
Banavena - good brawler
Ellis - decent contender probably past it
Bugner/Middleton/Garcia/Kirkman - all decent

I think that's a very good resume for a contender. Shavers had a very difficult style for Lyle; Bonavena was always awkward and dangerous; Ellis was past his best, but not quite shot; as you note, his other wins were good in the context of the era.

The Bugner win is often overlooked: Bugner still had a lot left, Lyle was at the end of his career, and Ron managed to force out the most exciting fight of Bugner's career. I've never seen Bugner try so hard; the big Joe that Lyle beat was a much more vicious and aggressive boxer than the timid "Just glad to be there" Bugner that Ali and Frazier couldn't put away.

The Kurgan

10-04-2007, 03:47 PM

Having said all this if he started boxing as a teenager - he may have been a truly great fighter

Possibly. Or maybe it was his near-death experience and his mature adult body (Lyle's strength is often overlooked, but it bothered the hell out of Foreman) that made him such a competant contender in the first place. :think

Duodenum

10-04-2007, 06:32 PM

Leroy Caldwell stated that Lyle's punching power was on a par with Foreman's. They had other common opponents who may or may not agree with that. For whatever it's worth, Big George himself has stated on camera that Ron hit him the hardest of any of his opponents, and Foreman did face a number of other respectable punchers. Nobody else was ever able to power George to the deck early the way Lyle did twice. (Considering Foreman's chin, and the fact Holyfield's and Cooney's best shots couldn't dent it, that's no small feat.) If Lyle had tried to box George as he did Ali, Ron might have pulled off a late win (especially with all that power he had).

Lyle's legendary classic against Shavers is readily available on-line, and is probably the greatest win of his career. In a 25 year span of Earnie's career covering 75 fights, Ron was the only one to drop Shavers for the full count. (Ignore the TKO designation itemized on boxwreck. That was a clean ten-count win for Lyle, the only one registered over Earnie between Stander in 1970, and Yates in 1995.)

Because of his late start, it's probably safe to assume that he never sustained anything in the way of significant brain damage, and that late start probably contributed to his being able to compete successfully at a later age. He decisioned LeDoux over ten rounds for his final major win at age 38 (wobbling Scott repeatedly at a time when very few were able to do that to him), and finished off his career with a quartet of knockout wins at age 54! Although he was outslugged by Foreman and outboxed by Young, he did outbox Ellis and Bugner over 12, and outslugged Shavers.

For all his knockout power and quick finishing ability, he also had excellent mobility and could pace himself over longer distances very well. (Perhaps this had something to do with living at Denver altitude.)

Yes, he was schooled by Quarry and Young at their very best, but these experiences probably helped to enhance his own skills. At his peak, I'm convinced he would have worn down and knocked Cooney out, something I don't believe Norton could have ever done. Ron was certainly tougher than Kenny, and more versatile. Peak for peak, Lyle may have been superior to Norton, and I'm confident he would have beaten Kenny, head-to-head. (When Norton discovered somebody could hurt him, he fell apart mentally, something not true for Lyle at his best.)

Unlike Norton, Iron Bite and Chinnox, Ron could also get off the floor to win, as he proved against Shavers and LeDoux.

I tend to think of Lyle as a boxer-puncher, more of a stylist who could slug than a slugger who could box. I don't think of his approach to boxing in predatory terms. He wore down Shavers by counterpunching off the ropes, a suicidal tactic for anybody else, and an indication Ron might have been able to knock out Foreman as Ali did in Kinshasa.

Some hold the fact that he was schooled twice by Young against him, but if Jimmy hadn't been turned into a bloody mess against Cooney, and had entered his match with Gerry in top condition, then that would have likely been the end of Cooney's undefeated streak.

Ron Lyle could very well have been the 1972 Olympic HW Gold Medalist if he'd remained in amateur boxing for two more years. He could well be the most successful professional heavyweight to ever enter the punch for pay ranks past age 30.

ChrisPontius

10-04-2007, 06:46 PM

I think he hit just a little less hard than Quarry, judging by their respective performances against Shavers.

I would say more than just a little less hard.
Quarry laid Shavers out in the first round.

My footage of Lyle-Shavers is not in the greatest quality, but from memory - Lyle landed a lot of shots on him and it still took him into the 6th to finally take his weak-chinned opponent out.

I am not impressed by Lyle's power. Almost all of his fights went the distance, - in losing fashion i might add.
Probably his most impressive showing was against Foreman, dropping him twice and Foreman being somewhat lucky that the round ended after the second knockdown. However, Foreman in his first career was also dropped by Ali and Young, neither of whom hit hard. You can say that those were due to exhaustion, but Foreman-Lyle was fought at a very high pace (higher than most of his other fights) and Foreman didn't look in the best shape, whose to say he wasn't tired there as well?

Blacc Jesus

10-04-2007, 07:13 PM

Thanks for the replies all. I find it interesting that Quarry hits harder than Lyle.
So is Lyle's power somewhat overrated?

ChrisPontius

10-04-2007, 08:14 PM

It's there to see.

Look at his biggest fights:

Quarry - went the distance.
Bonavena - went the distance
Ellis - went the distance
Young - went the distance
Ali - he was knocked out
Shavers - he knocked him out in 6, but many (mediocre) fighters knocked Shavers quicker and he landed plenty of leather on him, they were toe-to-toe all of the time.
Foreman - he was knocked out
Young rematch - went the distance

So there you go. Of all his big fights, he only scored on KO over a fighter who has a very weak chin.
The Bugner KO was impressive though, considering Bugner was rather durable. Bugner was an average fighter nonetheless.

The Kurgan

10-05-2007, 12:15 PM

Thanks for the replies all. I find it interesting that Quarry hits harder than Lyle.
So is Lyle's power somewhat overrated?

No, Quarry's power is underrated. Put Quarry in with the Foreman of 1976, and Quarry could knock Big George spark out. Even in their primes, Quarry's power would be a risk for Foreman (or anyone). Quarry may have had circus-small arms, but they were like cougar magnums: small, but powerful. It's strange, because you never see Quarry on any "hardest hitter" lists, yet when he planted his feet he hit like a mule.

The Kurgan

10-05-2007, 12:16 PM

ChrisPontius

10-05-2007, 02:07 PM

Right. Say i had never seen him fight, how does that change that all of his big fights that i listed going the distance ?

He was impressive against Foreman but he was also the only person in history to be put out of the fight by a single punch from the light-hitting Ali.

The Kurgan

10-05-2007, 02:11 PM

Right. Say i had never seen him fight, how does that change that all of his big fights that i listed going the distance ?

It doesn't, but of course that wasn't the point I made. If you'd seen him fight, you'd know the Bugner fight was stopped not as a result of Lyle's power, but a cut. If you'd seen him fight, you'd have known that Lyle didn't plant his feet for most of the Shavers fight, and by the time he did Lyle was already tired. That was what I was addressing.

He was impressive against Foreman but he was also the only person in history to be put out of the fight by a single punch from the light-hitting Ali.

I know this is well below par for you. Considering (a) your avatar, and (b) your knowledge of boxing, you should know this statement is utter bullshit.

Bummy Davis

10-05-2007, 02:53 PM

Ron Lyle was a decent puncher, He struggled to KO many who were KO'd before him and after and taken the distance Ellis,Middleton,Bonavena,Peralta,Lou Baily,Bob Stallings,Manual Ramos,Wendell Newton. Lyle was another guy who had the look,the built and the Jail REP but was he a puncher, no, he ko'd Shavers who was stopped before the Lyle fight and stopped quicker, Lyle had the Look ,like Liston,Foreman,Sam Peter,Golota, imposing but Quarry gave him a beating. Lyle looked like a puncher vs Foreman but George avoided Quarry and other than a shot Frazier avoided punchers

ChrisPontius

10-05-2007, 02:57 PM

It doesn't, but of course that wasn't the point I made. If you'd seen him fight, you'd know the Bugner fight was stopped not as a result of Lyle's power, but a cut. If you'd seen him fight, you'd have known that Lyle didn't plant his feet for most of the Shavers fight, and by the time he did Lyle was already tired. That was what I was addressing.

Indeed i haven't seen the Bugner fight but it only makes my argument stronger if it was stopped on a cut.

I have seen the Shavers-Lyle fight a few years ago and from my memory they fought in the pocket most of the time, so i don't see how he did not plant his feet except when he was knocked down, of course.

I know this is well below par for you. Considering (a) your avatar, and (b) your knowledge of boxing, you should know this statement is utter bullshit.

Maybe i was overreacting, but what i said about the Ali-Lyle fight is true, although indeed it is irrelevant in the discussing Lyle's power. I will rewatch some of his fights when i get home.

The Kurgan

10-05-2007, 03:32 PM

Indeed i haven't seen the Bugner fight but it only makes my argument stronger if it was stopped on a cut.

I have seen the Shavers-Lyle fight a few years ago and from my memory they fought in the pocket most of the time, so i don't see how he did not plant his feet except when he was knocked down, of course.

He was either moving on his feet or throwing arm-punchers. Lyle didn't start to load up until the 5th and 6th.

Maybe i was overreacting, but what i said about the Ali-Lyle fight is true, although indeed it is irrelevant in the discussing Lyle's power. I will rewatch some of his fights when i get home.

???

Ali-Liston II?

Ali-Bonavena?

Your point is incorrect.

littleguy

10-05-2007, 03:57 PM

JohnThomas1

10-05-2007, 07:49 PM

No, Quarry's power is underrated. Put Quarry in with the Foreman of 1976, and Quarry could knock Big George spark out. Even in their primes, Quarry's power would be a risk for Foreman (or anyone). Quarry may have had circus-small arms, but they were like cougar magnums: small, but powerful. It's strange, because you never see Quarry on any "hardest hitter" lists, yet when he planted his feet he hit like a mule.

Gil Clancy would agree, he says Quarry is the best "natural" puncher he ever worked with. That's some praise when we factor in George Foreman for starters.

ChrisPontius

10-06-2007, 06:25 AM

He was either moving on his feet or throwing arm-punchers. Lyle didn't start to load up until the 5th and 6th.

Alright, i will rewatch the fight.

???

Ali-Liston II?

Ali-Bonavena?

Your point is incorrect.

We all know the second Liston fight was a phoney. Bonavena was not winning the fight when Ali started knocking him down, whereas Lyle was ahead, hence he was put out of the fight from winning to losing with one punch.

The Kurgan

10-06-2007, 06:52 AM

We all know the second Liston fight was a phoney.

There has never been conclusive proof. All we can tell is that Ali hit Liston with one punch that kept him down.

Bonavena was not winning the fight when Ali started knocking him down, whereas Lyle was ahead, hence he was put out of the fight from winning to losing with one punch.

Ah, but Bonavena was still in the fight. It should also be noted that Bonavena went down, while Lyle stayed up and took countless punches without going down. I think it was as much related to exhaustion as Ali's power.

The Kurgan

10-06-2007, 06:55 AM

I watched the Lyle-Bugner fight live. It went the full 12 rounds and Lyle won a close decision. Bugner was asleep for most of the fight. Lyle threw mostly body shots and Bugner just soaked them up.

Lyle never stopped Bugner. What are you guys talking about?

I could have sworn Bugner was stopped on the cuts. Then again, it was a long time since I saw that fight. However, I do remember Bugner made a fight of it.

Mendoza

10-06-2007, 07:20 AM

Lyle was an all time contender who fought most of the best fighters in the 1970's. I tend to view him as an all time top 50 heavyweight. If Lyle didn’t fight in the 1970's when Ali and Foreman were around OR started boxing a bit earlier, he could have achieved greater acclaim.

One little known fact about Lyle was he was part of a professional boxing league where USA cities sent teams to fight each other. Lyle was the team heavyweight for Denver Rocks. Intersting concept.

AnthonyJ74

10-06-2007, 03:10 PM

What really stands out for me about Lyle is his physique. He had a massive frame, and his shoulders were huge! Just looking at him and Foreman together in the ring, Lyle gave the appearance of a sturdier, stronger specimen. And Lyle impressed me more in the Foreman fight than did Foreman. Foreman was lucky to win that fight; Lyle could have easily come out the winner if one of the rounds were a little longer. In the end, I think he went down more from exhaustion than from any of Foreman's punches.

Blacc Jesus

10-08-2007, 03:39 AM

Guys, could you give me your top 10 hardest hitters during the 70's?

young griffo

10-08-2007, 05:47 AM

I could have sworn Bugner was stopped on the cuts. Then again, it was a long time since I saw that fight. However, I do remember Bugner made a fight of it.
You might be getting it mixed up with Bugner-Shavers where Joe was stopped on a cut early.This was only a couple of fights after the Lyle match.

jowcol

10-08-2007, 08:49 AM

Let's go back to this Quarry power for a moment; someone said most of Lyle's big wins were decisions. I always loved Jerry; I saw many of his most memorable fights live on TV/closed circuit way back when.
But IMHO, his punching power was OVER-rated. When he took someone out, it was with a series of punches not this one-punch stuff. Lyle hit harder than Quarry, plain and simple. No way does Quarry deck Foreman at any point in their career; no way does Quarry stand a chance against Foreman at any point in his career.
How about Jerry in his big fights; Patterson stood up to him twice and might have won both fights in some eyes. Ellis beat him; he decisioned Buster Mathias, he decisioned Lyle; he hit Frazier with his best Sunday shots and Joe never flinched. The Shavers fight, in my mind, remains a strange anonmoly; they fight again, surely a much, much, different fight. Mac Foster? A good one but that big puncher's ONLY big wins were against has-beens. Took Jerry all of 12 rounds to wear down the vastly overrated Thad Spencer. Check out journeyman Joe Alexander's KD of Jerry in early 74; that punch from Joe may have been harder than anything Jerry ever threw.
I don't mean to be hard on Jerry; I just think, all in all, that he is over-rated on this forum in some areas particularly in the power department.
HOF for sure but he was not able to knock out any of the top contenders save a green Shavers and that fight still seems strange to me with repeated viewings...
My $0.02

Duodenum

10-08-2007, 11:41 AM

Guys, could you give me your top 10 hardest hitters during the 70's?This is of course extremely subjective, and I'm certain to revise it extensively if redoing it again. The one selection I strongly hold to is at the top of my list. (To punctuate just how strongly I believe in that choice, check out my second pick!)

1) Earnie Shavers
2) Blank (I think Shavers was that far ahead of the rest of the pack.)
3) Sonny Liston (Because the final bout of his career was his 1970 win over Wepner, who rated Sonny's power over Foreman's, even then.)
4) George Foreman (He rang Chuvalo's bell, and had Ali pissing blood for three days.)
5) Ron Lyle (Ron floored the granite chinned Foreman early twice, and nearly knocked him out. The only reason I haven't tied Lyle with Foreman is because of George's greater consistency in stopping his opponents. But if Lyle chose to "swing for the rafters" the way Foreman usually did, then who knows? Big George said after his second career was over that Lyle hit him the hardest of any of his opponents.)
6) Mac Foster
7) Jerry Quarry (Monstrous right hand against Bodell. Outslugged Shavers, beat up Foster and Spencer, and floored Mathis in just the second round, putting the big man in survival mode for the remaining ten rounds. Ali made sure Quarry couldn't reach him at all, just as Muhammad did Cleveland Williams. Jerry knocked Norton halfway across the ring to the ropes with a first round bodyshot. Decked Foreman in sparring.)
8) Gerrie Coetzee (If his right didn't get broken, watch out! But power concentrated mainly in that one hand.)
9) Kallie Knoetze (Norton and Tate caught the slow starting Bobick cold. Duane had no such excuse against Knoetze. Like his "sworn enemy" Coetzee, power mostly from the right side.)
10) Joe Frazier (Three huge left hooks establish his position as an elite puncher from my perspective. The final shot when he unified the heavyweight title against Ellis, the knee buckling shot he caught Ali against the ropes with in round 11 of the FOTC, and the one downstairs which sank Quarry to the floor in their rematch.)

Honorable mention (In no particular order): Bonavena, Norton, Stander (made Frazier prove he could win when conceding territory), Cleveland Williams (finished his career during this decade), Roy Williams (possibly the most avoided contender of his era), Duane Bobick (Dropped rugged Scott Ledoux twice in their rematch. In the Frenchman's very next bout, he would draw with soon-to-be Ali conquerer Leon Spinks. Bobick floored Larry Holmes as an amateur. Could be very dangerous if let out of the first couple rounds.)

Gerry Cooney (In revising this, I might well place Gerry in the top ten. He dropped Dino Dennis before the decade ended.) Muhammad Ali (His left hook against Ringo was a wrecking ball. The hardest right hand of his career floored Foreman for the count, something nobody else ever came close to doing to George. He beat down Wepner hard enough to have Chuck down for the count. Had somewhat sensitive hands which required novocaine injections before he used his fists, but cound be deadly when he loaded up with bad intentions.) Jimmy Ellis (The day after his first match with Frazier, Quarry named Ellis as the harder puncher of the two. Ellis did drop Bonavena twice, decked Boone Kirkman in the first round, and took out Leotis Martin in the previous decade.)

Larry Holmes (During this decade, Larry scored a one punch knockout with a right cross to Tomato Evangelista's neck. Though Evangelista's entire 78 bout career, only three other opponents would take him out: Leon Spinks in his career best performance, Greg Page at his undefeated peak, and Anders Eklund at the end of Tomato's career. Holmes also flattened and took out undefeated future WBA CW champion Ossie Ocasio with his jab, looking a good deal more like Liston than Ali in the process. Finally, it was during this decade that Larry secured his title defense win over Weaver with a single right uppercut. Shortly, Hercules would stand up to everything Big John Tate and Coetzee could dish out into the championship rounds. Holmes had a lot of arm problems which compromised his power against Norton, as well as later in his career, but started his long reign by stopping his first eight title challengers.)

jowcol

10-08-2007, 11:42 AM

Well, he certainly didn't knock out any more top contenders than Quarry did.
(THAT'S MY POINT; QUARRY NEVER KNOCKED OUT THE TOP CONTENDERS; HE DIDN'T HAVE THAT OVERWHELMING POWER THAT SO MANY CLAIM HE HAD.)

Except in sparring.
(I KEEP HEARING THIS QUARRY/FOREMAN SPARRING SESSION; DID IT EVER HAPPEN? WHEN? LATE 68? EARLY 69?)

Very ignorant, considering Quarry was at his best against the big punchers. (FAIR ENOUGH, THEN LET'S START WITH FRAZIER WHO WASN'T NEAR GEORGE IN THE POWER DEPT. FOREMAN WOULD HAVE ANNILIATED QUARRY.)

The same guy that you're arguing that had better punching power. Quarry beat him easily. (BECAUSE JERRY COULD TAKE A MUCH BETTER PUNCH)

Probably because Joe was an ATG at the top of his form.
(YOUR DESCRIBING TO A T WHO FOREMAN WAS AT THE TIME YOU SEE JERRY BEATING HIM)

Well, you just called him a good one. Quarry finished him in about 6.
(HOW REALLY GOOD WAS FOSTER?; CHECK HIS RECORD, IS THERE ANY TOP CONTENDER THAT HE BEAT THAT WASN'T BORN IN THE JURASSIC AGE?)

How is Spencer overrated? Barely anybody knows who he is. He was coming off the Terrell win, at least. (WELL, SOMEHOW THE WBA HAD HIM THE #1 CONTENDER WHEN THE 67 ELIMINATION TOURNEY CAME ALONG WHICH WE ALL FOUND ODD CONSIDERING THAD'S RECORD COMING INTO IT.)

This was when Quarry was on his freefall decline.(BARELY 60 DAYS
AFTER THE SHAVERS BOUT.)

Green Shavers? He had about 50 fights at that point. I believe Shavers was actually rated higher than Quarry when Jerry dusted him in one. And what are you suggesting that's strange? That Shavers threw the fight or something? I seem to recall he landed one or two really hard shots at least, but Quarry had the chin to take them. And then whipped his ass quickly. (GREEN TO THE POINT THAT HE HADN'T AS OF YET BEEN TESTED BY A TOP CONTENDER.)

Not trying to be confrontational Thad, just feel I'm spot on about this.
How so many out there see a 73 Quarry beating a 73 Foreman just boggles my mind...

jowcol

10-08-2007, 12:41 PM

Styles make fights.

Quarry came to fight, he came to slug; he couldn't box a lick unless
he was in against some journeyman; even Chuvalo was jabbing him.
Foreman might even start out jabbing Quarry; punches would be landed from both sides and early on Jerry's going to take a hell of a punch or punches, he would be hurt, he may well split wide open as well. A pre-Ali Foreman (before his brain and common sense were fried by the Ali-psyche) would have destroyed Ron Lyle inside of two one-sided rounds IMHO).
Repeat: NO WAY Quarry stands a chance against a prime George. You're right, styles make fights and Quarry's style just aint' workin' against big George.
If you continue to disagree with me, then it's just a matter of agreeing to disagree and we move on. I've always looked at this mythical matchup as a no brainer and I can't see any logic that would indicate otherwise.

best wishes;
j

mr. magoo

10-08-2007, 02:46 PM

Quarry came to fight, he came to slug; he couldn't box a lick unless
he was in against some journeyman; even Chuvalo was jabbing him.
Foreman might even start out jabbing Quarry; punches would be landed from both sides and early on Jerry's going to take a hell of a punch or punches, he would be hurt, he may well split wide open as well. A pre-Ali Foreman (before his brain and common sense were fried by the Ali-psyche) would have destroyed Ron Lyle inside of two one-sided rounds IMHO).
Repeat: NO WAY Quarry stands a chance against a prime George. You're right, styles make fights and Quarry's style just aint' workin' against big George.
If you continue to disagree with me, then it's just a matter of agreeing to disagree and we move on. I've always looked at this mythical matchup as a no brainer and I can't see any logic that would indicate otherwise.

best wishes;
j

I agree that George would likely take this fight, but I disagree with your claim that Quarry couldn't box a lick unless he was in with a journeyman. Quarry was definately a class boxer and a half way decent puncher as well. He defeated a lot of ranked fighters and was a deserving top 10 contender for the better part of nearly 10 years. The only reason I pick Foreman is because I can't see Quarry dusting him early like he did Shavers, nor hanging in there for 10 or 15 rounds to out point or out hustle George. He's be taking a lot of extremeley hard shots and likely cutting and swelling as each round past. Quarry however, was a better tactical fighter than George was. Although Foreman had better wins against Norton and Frazier, Quarry's list of top fighters was certainly longer. The Lyle fight was the only time in the 70's that Goerge showed that he could come back after being hurt to chalk up a win. The other two occasions ( Ali and Young ) resulted in losses. Quarry showed heart and savy more often.

jowcol

10-08-2007, 02:58 PM

You make fun of me for saying Quarry had a steep decline in '74, and yet you come up with the excuse that Foreman's "brain was fried."

Whatever you say, pal.

Now you're patronizing me?
What did Foreman do after Ali? No rematch for sure; Ali wanted no part of that. 5 stiffs in one day? A sloppy performance against Lyle; a sloppy performance against Young? He wasn't the same but still much, much better than Jerry after his "steep decline" as you put it. But you want them in prime and that could be a late spring, early summer 73 prior to any of the above.

You're obviously one of the Quarry nut-hugger varieties; but, to be fair, I tend to be that way with Patterson, however, I am forced to accept the *****s in my hero's armor on occasion. Fact: Quarry got pummeled and ripped to shreds twice by a man who hit roughly half as hard as a prime George had much less a jaw as George, and who Jerry was unable to hurt in either fight and who Foreman destroyed. Agree to disagree and let's move on...

have a good evening;
j

mr. magoo

10-08-2007, 03:01 PM

Fact: Quarry got pummeled and ripped to shreds twice by a man who hit roughly half as hard as a prime George had much less a jaw as George, and who Jerry was unable to hurt in either fight and who Foreman destroyed. Agree to disagree and let's move on...

What similarities can you think of that Joe Frazier and George Foreman shared?

Didn't Ali lose to Frazier while beating Foreman?

Blacc Jesus

10-08-2007, 09:51 PM

This is of course extremely subjective, and I'm certain to revise it extensively if redoing it again. The one selection I strongly hold to is at the top of my list. (To punctuate just how strongly I believe in that choice, check out my second pick!)

1) Earnie Shavers
2) Blank (I think Shavers was that far ahead of the rest of the pack.)
3) Sonny Liston (Because the final bout of his career was his 1970 win over Wepner, who rated Sonny's power over Foreman's, even then.)
4) George Foreman (He rang Chuvalo's bell, and had Ali pissing blood for three days.)
5) Ron Lyle (Ron floored the granite chinned Foreman early twice, and nearly knocked him out. The only reason I haven't tied Lyle with Foreman is because of George's greater consistency in stopping his opponents. But if Lyle chose to "swing for the rafters" the way Foreman usually did, then who knows? Big George said after his second career was over that Lyle hit him the hardest of any of his opponents.)
6) Mac Foster
7) Jerry Quarry (Monstrous right hand against Bodell. Outslugged Shavers, beat up Foster and Spencer, and floored Mathis in just the second round, putting the big man in survival mode for the remaining ten rounds. Ali made sure Quarry couldn't reach him at all, just as Muhammad did Cleveland Williams. Jerry knocked Norton halfway across the ring to the ropes with a first round bodyshot. Decked Foreman in sparring.)
8) Gerrie Coetzee (If his right didn't get broken, watch out! But power concentrated mainly in that one hand.)
9) Kallie Knoetze (Norton and Tate caught the slow starting Bobick cold. Duane had no such excuse against Knoetze. Like his "sworn enemy" Coetzee, power mostly from the right side.)
10) Joe Frazier (Three huge left hooks establish his position as an elite puncher from my perspective. The final shot when he unified the heavyweight title against Ellis, the knee buckling shot he caught Ali against the ropes with in round 11 of the FOTC, and the one downstairs which sank Quarry to the floor in their rematch.)

Honorable mention (In no particular order): Bonavena, Norton, Stander (made Frazier prove he could win when conceding territory), Cleveland Williams (finished his career during this decade), Roy Williams (possibly the most avoided contender of his era), Duane Bobick (Dropped rugged Scott Ledoux twice in their rematch. In the Frenchman's very next bout, he would draw with soon-to-be Ali conquerer Leon Spinks. Bobick floored Larry Holmes as an amateur. Could be very dangerous if let out of the first couple rounds.)

Gerry Cooney (In revising this, I might well place Gerry in the top ten. He dropped Dino Dennis before the decade ended.) Muhammad Ali (His left hook against Ringo was a wrecking ball. The hardest right hand of his career floored Foreman for the count, something nobody else ever came close to doing to George. He beat down Wepner hard enough to have Chuck down for the count. Had somewhat sensitive hands which required novocaine injections before he used his fists, but cound be deadly when he loaded up with bad intentions.) Jimmy Ellis (The day after his first match with Frazier, Quarry named Ellis as the harder puncher of the two. Ellis did drop Bonavena twice, decked Boone Kirkman in the first round, and took out Leotis Martin in the previous decade.)

Larry Holmes (During this decade, Larry scored a one punch knockout with a right cross to Tomato Evangelista's neck. Though Evangelista's entire 78 bout career, only three other opponents would take him out: Leon Spinks in his career best performance, Greg Page at his undefeated peak, and Anders Eklund at the end of Tomato's career. Holmes also flattened and took out undefeated future WBA CW champion Ossie Ocasio with his jab, looking a good deal more like Liston than Ali in the process. Finally, it was during this decade that Larry secured his title defense win over Weaver with a single right uppercut. Shortly, Hercules would stand up to everything Big John Tate and Coetzee could dish out into the championship rounds. Holmes had a lot of arm problems which compromised his power against Norton, as well as later in his career, but started his long reign by stopping his first eight title challengers.) Thanks. But could you elaborate on having Frazier so low?

jowcol

10-09-2007, 08:22 AM

Umm, I do, asswipe.

Our "debate" is now finished with that tidbit.

Good luck;
j

Duodenum

10-09-2007, 04:22 PM

Thanks. But could you elaborate on having Frazier so low?I was surprised myself as I compiled this list, and as I stated, this is certainly subject to revision. Tough calls were made in this process.

Joe didn't have a great right hand, and he didn't usually produce the sort of clean one punch knockout that Coetzee sometimes carried off. It was a very close call between Knoezte's right and Frazier's left, but Kallie's staggering early round knockout percentage within the decade persuaded me to tentatively lean towards him.

Quarry was a faster starter and dangerous with both fists. For all his reputation as a great hooker, his right hand against Bodell was more impressive to me than Joe's hook against Bob Foster and Ziggy. Jerry also stood his ground more than Smoke, with his counterpunching magnifying the impact of his blows. That sort of counterpunching can be more devastating than Joe's brand of mobile blitzkrieg swarming. Until Joe Alexander, round one almost always belonged to Quarry.

Mac Foster's knockout record was simply too staggering to ignore, but his name is one I could wind up deleting entirely at another time. I must confess that I'm not quite as informed about him as I ought to be.

What are the knocks on Joe's power? Well, he nailed Foreman in their rematch, and failed to budge George. Bonavena took everything he had in 25 rounds of combat. He failed to drop Chuvalo, and couldn't finish off Bugner after dropping him. (In fact, Smoke was nearly decked himself after Bugner got back to his feet.) He probably hit Ali more than all of Muhammad's other amateur and professional opponents combined, yet couldn't put him away, and only dropped him once. He dropped Jimmy Ellis twice in devastating fashion, but couldn't keep him down. He busted up Stander, but didn't have the firepower to bring him down or knock him back.

Coetzee, Quarry, Knoetze and Mac Foster are extremely close calls for me over Frazier, and on a different day, I might well leapfrog Joe over all of them. It's also a strong possibility that I would place Cooney above Frazier in the process of doing so. (Ditto Bonavena. I'm just not certain.)

For me, Joe Frazier was more of an attrition swarmer than a power puncher. It doesn't matter how hard somebody punches if they don't hit the target in the first place, and Frazier was considerably more successful than Quarry at reaching Ali. But in doing so, he had to have sacrificed some power in the process.

Now, if you were to hold a gun to my head, and insist I fill in the blank, I could have any combination of Lyle, Cooney, Foreman, Liston and Frazier round out my top five below Shavers.

You tossed out an extremely challenging question, one I tried to answer as best I could, off the cuff. (Am I the only one willing to stick their neck out in answering this one?)

Joe Frazier is a top five all-time heavyweight in my book, sometimes top four. (Dempsey, Louis, Ali and Holmes are my others. I tend to alternate Frazier with Louis at number four.)

Blacc Jesus

10-09-2007, 04:33 PM

I was surprised myself as I compiled this list, and as I stated, this is certainly subject to revision. Tough calls were made in this process.

Joe didn't have a great right hand, and he didn't usually produce the sort of clean one punch knockout that Coetzee sometimes carried off. It was a very close call between Knoezte's right and Frazier's left, but Kallie's staggering early round knockout percentage within the decade persuaded me to tentatively lean towards him.

Quarry was a faster starter and dangerous with both fists. For all his reputation as a great hooker, his right hand against Bodell was more impressive to me than Joe's hook against Bob Foster and Ziggy. Jerry also stood his ground more than Smoke, with his counterpunching magnifying the impact of his blows. That sort of counterpunching can be more devastating than Joe's brand of mobile blitzkrieg swarming. Until Joe Alexander, round one almost always belonged to Quarry.

Mac Foster's knockout record was simply too staggering to ignore, but his name is one I could wind up deleting entirely at another time. I must confess that I'm not quite as informed about him as I ought to be.

What are the knocks on Joe's power? Well, he nailed Foreman in their rematch, and failed to budge George. Bonavena took everything he had in 25 rounds of combat. He failed to drop Chuvalo, and couldn't finish off Bugner after dropping him. (In fact, Smoke was nearly decked himself after Bugner got back to his feet.) He probably hit Ali more than all of Muhammad's other amateur and professional opponents combined, yet couldn't put him away, and only dropped him once. He dropped Jimmy Ellis twice in devastating fashion, but couldn't keep him down. He busted up Stander, but didn't have the firepower to bring him down or knock him back.

Coetzee, Quarry, Knoetze and Mac Foster are extremely close calls for me over Frazier, and on a different day, I might well leapfrog Joe over all of them. It's also a strong possibility that I would place Cooney above Frazier in the process of doing so. (Ditto Bonavena. I'm just not certain.)

For me, Joe Frazier was more of an attrition swarmer than a power puncher. It doesn't matter how hard somebody punches if they don't hit the target in the first place, and Frazier was considerably more successful than Quarry at reaching Ali. But in doing so, he had to have sacrificed some power in the process.

Now, if you were to hold a gun to my head, and insist I fill in the blank, I could have any combination of Lyle, Cooney, Foreman, Liston and Frazier round out my top five below Shavers.

You tossed out an extremely challenging question, one I tried to answer as best I could, off the cuff. (Am I the only one willing to stick their neck out in answering this one?)

Joe Frazier is a top five all-time heavyweight in my book, sometimes top four. (Dempsey, Louis, Ali and Holmes are my others. I tend to alternate Frazier with Louis at number four.)
:clap: Great post. I have a much better understanding on your picks now.

Also, any more info on Mac Foster? I never hear too much about him, but his record is amazing.

Sonny Carson

10-09-2007, 04:39 PM

Also, Foreman was knocked out by Ali and floored by feather-fisted Jimmy Young. Good chin, huh?
That was because he had punched himself out it had nothing to do with his chin.

ChrisPontius

10-09-2007, 05:03 PM

This is of course extremely subjective, and I'm certain to revise it extensively if redoing it again. The one selection I strongly hold to is at the top of my list. (To punctuate just how strongly I believe in that choice, check out my second pick!)

1) Earnie Shavers
2) Blank (I think Shavers was that far ahead of the rest of the pack.)
3) Sonny Liston (Because the final bout of his career was his 1970 win over Wepner, who rated Sonny's power over Foreman's, even then.)
4) George Foreman (He rang Chuvalo's bell, and had Ali pissing blood for three days.)
5) Ron Lyle (Ron floored the granite chinned Foreman early twice, and nearly knocked him out. The only reason I haven't tied Lyle with Foreman is because of George's greater consistency in stopping his opponents. But if Lyle chose to "swing for the rafters" the way Foreman usually did, then who knows? Big George said after his second career was over that Lyle hit him the hardest of any of his opponents.)
6) Mac Foster
7) Jerry Quarry (Monstrous right hand against Bodell. Outslugged Shavers, beat up Foster and Spencer, and floored Mathis in just the second round, putting the big man in survival mode for the remaining ten rounds. Ali made sure Quarry couldn't reach him at all, just as Muhammad did Cleveland Williams. Jerry knocked Norton halfway across the ring to the ropes with a first round bodyshot. Decked Foreman in sparring.)
8) Gerrie Coetzee (If his right didn't get broken, watch out! But power concentrated mainly in that one hand.)
9) Kallie Knoetze (Norton and Tate caught the slow starting Bobick cold. Duane had no such excuse against Knoetze. Like his "sworn enemy" Coetzee, power mostly from the right side.)
10) Joe Frazier (Three huge left hooks establish his position as an elite puncher from my perspective. The final shot when he unified the heavyweight title against Ellis, the knee buckling shot he caught Ali against the ropes with in round 11 of the FOTC, and the one downstairs which sank Quarry to the floor in their rematch.)

Honorable mention (In no particular order): Bonavena, Norton, Stander (made Frazier prove he could win when conceding territory), Cleveland Williams (finished his career during this decade), Roy Williams (possibly the most avoided contender of his era), Duane Bobick (Dropped rugged Scott Ledoux twice in their rematch. In the Frenchman's very next bout, he would draw with soon-to-be Ali conquerer Leon Spinks. Bobick floored Larry Holmes as an amateur. Could be very dangerous if let out of the first couple rounds.)

Gerry Cooney (In revising this, I might well place Gerry in the top ten. He dropped Dino Dennis before the decade ended.) Muhammad Ali (His left hook against Ringo was a wrecking ball. The hardest right hand of his career floored Foreman for the count, something nobody else ever came close to doing to George. He beat down Wepner hard enough to have Chuck down for the count. Had somewhat sensitive hands which required novocaine injections before he used his fists, but cound be deadly when he loaded up with bad intentions.) Jimmy Ellis (The day after his first match with Frazier, Quarry named Ellis as the harder puncher of the two. Ellis did drop Bonavena twice, decked Boone Kirkman in the first round, and took out Leotis Martin in the previous decade.)

Larry Holmes (During this decade, Larry scored a one punch knockout with a right cross to Tomato Evangelista's neck. Though Evangelista's entire 78 bout career, only three other opponents would take him out: Leon Spinks in his career best performance, Greg Page at his undefeated peak, and Anders Eklund at the end of Tomato's career. Holmes also flattened and took out undefeated future WBA CW champion Ossie Ocasio with his jab, looking a good deal more like Liston than Ali in the process. Finally, it was during this decade that Larry secured his title defense win over Weaver with a single right uppercut. Shortly, Hercules would stand up to everything Big John Tate and Coetzee could dish out into the championship rounds. Holmes had a lot of arm problems which compromised his power against Norton, as well as later in his career, but started his long reign by stopping his first eight title challengers.)

Did you know that boxing also existed in other decades than the 70's?

Blacc Jesus

10-09-2007, 05:16 PM

Did you know that boxing also existed in other decades than the 70's?
I asked him to compile a list for the top 10 hardest hitters during the 70's.

ChrisPontius

10-09-2007, 06:46 PM

I asked him to compile a list for the top 10 hardest hitters during the 70's.

:oops:

My apologies.

Sonny Carson

10-09-2007, 07:27 PM

This is of course extremely subjective, and I'm certain to revise it extensively if redoing it again. The one selection I strongly hold to is at the top of my list. (To punctuate just how strongly I believe in that choice, check out my second pick!)

1) Earnie Shavers
2) Blank (I think Shavers was that far ahead of the rest of the pack.)
3) Sonny Liston (Because the final bout of his career was his 1970 win over Wepner, who rated Sonny's power over Foreman's, even then.)
4) George Foreman (He rang Chuvalo's bell, and had Ali pissing blood for three days.)
5) Ron Lyle (Ron floored the granite chinned Foreman early twice, and nearly knocked him out. The only reason I haven't tied Lyle with Foreman is because of George's greater consistency in stopping his opponents. But if Lyle chose to "swing for the rafters" the way Foreman usually did, then who knows? Big George said after his second career was over that Lyle hit him the hardest of any of his opponents.)
6) Mac Foster
7) Jerry Quarry (Monstrous right hand against Bodell. Outslugged Shavers, beat up Foster and Spencer, and floored Mathis in just the second round, putting the big man in survival mode for the remaining ten rounds. Ali made sure Quarry couldn't reach him at all, just as Muhammad did Cleveland Williams. Jerry knocked Norton halfway across the ring to the ropes with a first round bodyshot. Decked Foreman in sparring.)
8) Gerrie Coetzee (If his right didn't get broken, watch out! But power concentrated mainly in that one hand.)
9) Kallie Knoetze (Norton and Tate caught the slow starting Bobick cold. Duane had no such excuse against Knoetze. Like his "sworn enemy" Coetzee, power mostly from the right side.)
10) Joe Frazier (Three huge left hooks establish his position as an elite puncher from my perspective. The final shot when he unified the heavyweight title against Ellis, the knee buckling shot he caught Ali against the ropes with in round 11 of the FOTC, and the one downstairs which sank Quarry to the floor in their rematch.)

Honorable mention (In no particular order): Bonavena, Norton, Stander (made Frazier prove he could win when conceding territory), Cleveland Williams (finished his career during this decade), Roy Williams (possibly the most avoided contender of his era), Duane Bobick (Dropped rugged Scott Ledoux twice in their rematch. In the Frenchman's very next bout, he would draw with soon-to-be Ali conquerer Leon Spinks. Bobick floored Larry Holmes as an amateur. Could be very dangerous if let out of the first couple rounds.)

Gerry Cooney (In revising this, I might well place Gerry in the top ten. He dropped Dino Dennis before the decade ended.) Muhammad Ali (His left hook against Ringo was a wrecking ball. The hardest right hand of his career floored Foreman for the count, something nobody else ever came close to doing to George. He beat down Wepner hard enough to have Chuck down for the count. Had somewhat sensitive hands which required novocaine injections before he used his fists, but cound be deadly when he loaded up with bad intentions.) Jimmy Ellis (The day after his first match with Frazier, Quarry named Ellis as the harder puncher of the two. Ellis did drop Bonavena twice, decked Boone Kirkman in the first round, and took out Leotis Martin in the previous decade.)

Larry Holmes (During this decade, Larry scored a one punch knockout with a right cross to Tomato Evangelista's neck. Though Evangelista's entire 78 bout career, only three other opponents would take him out: Leon Spinks in his career best performance, Greg Page at his undefeated peak, and Anders Eklund at the end of Tomato's career. Holmes also flattened and took out undefeated future WBA CW champion Ossie Ocasio with his jab, looking a good deal more like Liston than Ali in the process. Finally, it was during this decade that Larry secured his title defense win over Weaver with a single right uppercut. Shortly, Hercules would stand up to everything Big John Tate and Coetzee could dish out into the championship rounds. Holmes had a lot of arm problems which compromised his power against Norton, as well as later in his career, but started his long reign by stopping his first eight title challengers.)
Frazier should be higher than Quarry and your right about Holmes his power was very underrated, Norton too.