If Calzaghe was American he'd be #1PvP

[yesihavearm]

And would have been for years.

[warrior85]

youre probably right there m8

[Lacyace]

Explain to me why Calzaghe should be rated ahead of Mayweather? As a matter of fact since you said "for years", tell me why Calzaghe should've been rated ahead of RJJ?

[surreal deal]

fair argument.

[LeedsLad]

He'd have a good chance, had he been from the US he would have probably got the big fights, outside of RJJ i think he'd have a decent chance of beating everyone else.

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe became P4P number one, probably around 2000 or 2001. Top 10 after beating Eubanks.

[madpup]

Epics wins against the class of Bika and Manfredo really cemented that status.

[Asterion]

No, his competition has been shit.

[cross_trainer]

Never unified, held the least reputable of the four belts, and didn't fight many top-flight opponents. If he was American, he might have been rated higher, but there's no way he'd be P4P #1.

[Butch Coolidge]

If Calzaghe was American all you would hear about is how his division is total crap. At least that's what most boxing writers would wail about.

[Shane_Erich]

Like most Calzaghe posts, this one is a joke.

[Stinky gloves]

No, his competition has been shit.

His competition wasn't worse than competition of other P4P fighters.
The problem is that the homemade bums from England are less known
to US public than homemade bums from New Jersey or Ohio.

That is the common opinion in US Calzaghe faced unknown bums only
but Maywether, Taylor, Winky, etc. fought only ellite fighters the entire career.

[BITCH ASS]

What the hell is wrong with ya'll?

Of COURSE HE'D be #1.

Did you see what he did to Manfredo and Bika?

Those 2 were BADASSES on the CONTENDOR.

BADASSES

[PrideOfWales]

Everytime someone tries to rubbish Calzaghe, it's always "ok, he beat a green Lacy, struggled against Bika and took an easy fight against Manfredo"... always those fights - the only fights the Yanks have tuned into.

It's a shame the USA of America wasn't clever enough to get him when he was younger - they would have been treated to some amazing fights.

[Lacyace]

If Calzaghe was American all you would hear about is how his division is total crap. At least that's what most boxing writers would wail about.

True. Now, for some strange reason, 168 is the best division ever! I can see through that crap.

[Vantage_West]

Epics wins against the class of Bika and Manfredo really cemented that status.:patsch you silly moo
he was fighting top 10 supermiddlewieghts for 10 years mostly unbased fighters who fight in europe not U.S.

us brits make a fuss about this is that he was a top p4p fighter fighting the best guys he could find...most of them were real contenders and he's fought 6 world champions...roy jones didnt do that nor did bernard.

it's just this biased cant be fuckedness about american "sport" fans who know boxing but not alot to make unbiased decisions.

how many times have you heard a snobbish attitude towards european fighters...just the other day we had a poll about kelley pavlik-arthur abraham and most guys saying arthur hanst fought great compatition.

also SOOO many fighters get a titles shot after winning the USBC or NABC titles...why??? is the commonwealth belt or the european belt not worth the same wieght becuase of it.

[Axe]

Never unified, held the least reputable of the four belts, and didn't fight many top-flight opponents. If he was American, he might have been rated higher, but there's no way he'd be P4P #1.

:good

[Axe]

:patsch you silly moo
he was fighting top 10 supermiddlewieghts for 10 years mostly unbased fighters who fight in europe not U.S.

us brits make a fuss about this is that he was a top p4p fighter fighting the best guys he could find...most of them were real contenders and he's fought 6 world champions...roy jones didnt do that nor did bernard.

it's just this biased cant be fuckedness about american "sport" fans who know boxing but not alot to make unbiased decisions.

how many times have you heard a snobbish attitude towards european fighters...just the other day we had a poll about kelley pavlik-arthur abraham and most guys saying arthur hanst fought great compatition.

also SOOO many fighters get a titles shot after winning the USBC or NABC titles...why??? is the commonwealth belt or the european belt not worth the same wieght becuase of it.

What?!? :patsch

[yesihavearm]

What?!? :patsch

Thats actually a decent statement. Calzaghe HAS actually been fighting the best fighters in his division. Hopkins and DM were never in his division and RJJ was out of SMW by the time JC has established himself there.

Joe has actually fought the best the SMW division has to offer, where was lets be honest, RJJ never fought the best available and avoided DM and a rematch with a vastly improved Hopkins.

[Lacyace]

What?!? :patsch

:lol:

His whole post was :patsch.

[PrideOfWales]

Let's examine records of Calzaghe's last few opponents:

Kessler - 0 losses
Manfredo - joke fight (3 losses)
Bika - 1 loss
Lacy - 0 losses

OK, take out Manfredo - stupid move from Joe's promoter. The guys he's fighting are winners - some of them dangerous ones at that, Lacy's punch, Kessler's all round game, rough house Bika. The trend continues further back in his career.

[Stinky gloves]

If he was american he would have got his ass kicked by RJJ or BHOP.

I doubt, for the time Joe was champion at 168, Hopkins reign 160 and Jones was fighting at 175.
Hopkins managed to fight only the guys from below 160, and Jones was too busy to go back down to 160 again.
The one possibility would be fight with Toney.

[kg0208]

Thats actually a decent statement. Calzaghe HAS actually been fighting the best fighters in his division. Hopkins and DM were never in his division and RJJ was out of SMW by the time JC has established himself there.

Joe has actually fought the best the SMW division has to offer, where was lets be honest, RJJ never fought the best available and avoided DM and a rematch with a vastly improved Hopkins.

Jones fought 8 world champions in the LHW division ALONE. He also fought 12 Top 10 fighters. He no more avoided DM than DM avoided him, and we all know who the draw was and who had the bargaining power.

So that statement was HORRIBLE and not based in reality at all. Next time you might want to verify a statements factual validity before backing it up. Jones cleaned out the LHW division except for one man.

[sonny73]

I think Yahoo have got it about right at number 3 behind Pacman and Mayweather.Depending on what happens after the upcoming fights he could argueably go higher.

[Vantage_West]

If Calzaghe was America he would have had to actually fight outstanding fighters in their prime. Something he has never done.

And if he was America we wouldn't have endless numbers of Limeys having homoerotic wet dreams about the guy and drooling over him all over this site.:blood

collins - ducked him .he was using the eubank win as a way of staying away tough compatition he fought hard fighters but hand picked them in his later career.

benn - had retired.was goign to make a comeback but ahd left wich left eubank and collins in charge of the division..he hurt his ankle tkoed then got a corner retirement.

jones - was already moving to light heavy and wouldnt fight somone the americans havnt heard about.

bernard - was now becoming the man to beat at middlewieght. no point going up in wieght to fight a no named european.

toney - had been on a lay off in this part of his career with losses to tadzi and looked shot and was at light heavy which james was in no shape or form going to shread wieght to fight a super middlewieght. when he could fight a light heavy or cruiser for the same price or even better price.

what can you do when all the fighters wont face you becuase your too much of a risk and have too little reward from it.

[madpup]

Everytime someone tries to rubbish Calzaghe, it's always "ok, he beat a green Lacy, struggled against Bika and took an easy fight against Manfredo"... always those fights - the only fights the Yanks have tuned into.

It's a shame the USA of America wasn't clever enough to get him when he was younger - they would have been treated to some amazing fights.

Dude, these are his last 3 fights, of course people will emphasise them.

For a top p4p fighter at an advanced stage of his career to fight Bika and Manfredo is a total joke and an insult to true boxing fans.

[Axe]

Thats actually a decent statement. Calzaghe HAS actually been fighting the best fighters in his division. Hopkins and DM were never in his division and RJJ was out of SMW by the time JC has established himself there.

Joe has actually fought the best the SMW division has to offer, where was lets be honest, RJJ never fought the best available and avoided DM and a rematch with a vastly improved Hopkins.

Bollocks. First off his statement was wrong, he said RJJ never fought 6 "world champs" but Calzaghe did. :lol:

Calzaghe has fought one (1) titlist in his 12+ year career. Jones has actually beaten 6 reigning world champs if my count is correct. If we are talking former champions, Calzaghe may have several on his record but RJJ still has more champs altogether, never mind the quality of opposition.

Now as to fighting the best. There's a list floating around of all the titlist Joe failed to face at SMW, let me tell you, it's rather long. He also never fought Ottke. That impacts his legacy just like (though perhaps not as much as) RJJ never facing DM for the 175 lb linear title.

Lastly, RJJ has, throughout his entire career, fought much better competition than Calzaghe has. There is no question. That is why he was P4P #1 for nearly a decade whereas Joe has just cracked the top ten at 34 years of age.

[Vantage_West]

What?!? :patschit's true while calzaghe was fighting robin reid
roy was fighting police officers
and hopkins fighting punching postmen.

as amazing as roy jones is/was his defences werent top quality till later on when he was just taking fights of any belt he could...why do you think roy would fight calzaghe when he wouldnt fight dariusz michaelwski (sorry all polish posters im rubbish with names:patsch ) the lineal light heavywieght champ?

[Axe]

Jones fought 8 world champions in the LHW division ALONE. He also fought 12 Top 10 fighters. He no more avoided DM than DM avoided him, and we all know who the draw was and who had the bargaining power.

So that statement was HORRIBLE and not based in reality at all. Next time you might want to verify a statements factual validity before backing it up. Jones cleaned out the LHW division except for one man.

Disagree about the first part (DM seemed far more eager to make the fight, and Roy wasn't exactly ever a "draw") but I concurr that the statment is indeed ridiculous.

[kg0208]

Bollocks. First off his statement was wrong, he said RJJ never fought 6 "world champs" but Calzaghe did. :lol:

Calzaghe has fought one (1) titlist in his 12+ year career. Jones has actually beaten 6 reigning world champs if my count is correct. If we are talking former champions, Calzaghe may have several on his record but RJJ still has more champs altogether, never mind the quality of opposition.

Now as to fighting the best. There's a list floating around of all the titlist Joe failed to face at SMW, let me tell you, it's rather long. He also never fought Ottke. That impacts his legacy just like (though perhaps not as much as) RJJ never facing DM for the 175 lb linear title.

Lastly, RJJ has, throughout his entire career, fought much better competition than Calzaghe has. There is no question. That is why he was P4P #1 for nearly a decade whereas Joe has just cracked the top ten at 34 years of age.

He is obviously referring to Former or current champions....and Jones fought more at LHW alone than Calzaghe fought in his whole career. Jones fought at least 8 world champions at LHW and 12 top 10 fighters. I would call that good competition. He is quoting a myth, one that can't be substantiated.

[Brickhaus]

His competition wasn't worse than competition of other P4P fighters.
The problem is that the homemade bums from England are less known
to US public than homemade bums from New Jersey or Ohio.

That is the common opinion in US Calzaghe faced unknown bums only
but Maywether, Taylor, Winky, etc. fought only ellite fighters the entire career.

That's BS. Yes, the other P4P fighters had stay busy fights, but they didn't have runs of fighting guys outside of the top 10 for years like Calzaghe. The onus is on you to make the argument that Calzaghe's schedule was as strong as Mayweather's, Pacquiao's, Hopkins' of Taylor's because the assertion so clearly flies in the face of common sense.

Calzaghe's fights since 2001 (top 5 contenders at the time of the fight bolded):
Manfredo
Bika
Lacy
Ashira
Veit
Salem
Mkrtchian
Mitchell
Pudwell
Jimenez
McIntyre
Veit

Now you tell me with a straight face that, other than Lacy and Mitchell (who was basically shot at that point), that isn't a really crappy lineup of fighters to be facing for a champion. It's not horrible on the level of Pong or Calderon, but that's 7 YEARS of facing only 2 guys who were top 5 contenders at the time he fought them. From '97 - '00, Calzaghe fought a respectable schedule, but he just hasn't since then.

Just for comparison's sake, here's the guys who the other fighters have fought in that same time period:

Mayweather:
De La Hoya
Baldomir
Judah
Mitchell
Gatti
Bruseles
Corley
N'Dou
Sosa
Castillo
Castillo
Chavez
Hernandez
Corrales

Pacquiao:
Solis
Morales
Larios
Morales
Velasquez
Morales
Fahsan
JMM
Barrera
Lucero
Yeshkemunpronouncablename
Fahprakorb
Julio
Sanchez
Ledawba
Wethya
Senrima

Hopkins:
Winky (I'll give the benefit here and not bold him, even though he was top 10 P4P)
Tarver
Taylor
Taylor
Eastman
De La Hoya (same as Winky)
Allen
Joppy
Hakkar
Daniels
Trinidad
Holmes

Taylor:
Pavlik
Spinks (See Winky and DLH above - I'll give the benefit of the doubt here)
Ouma (same)
Winky
Hopkins
Hopkins
Edouard
Joppy
Marquez
Bunema
Rios
Martinez
Cuevas...and a long list of other guys around this level while he was still building himself up.


Your assertion is so dumb, you should be banned from even thinking.

[kg0208]

Disagree about the first part (DM seemed far more eager to make the fight, and Roy wasn't exactly ever a "draw") but I concurr that the statment is indeed ridiculous.

Jones was more of a draw than DM was, especially on PPV when he had a credible opponent and was certainly better known.

And neither was too keen on making the necessary concessions to make the fight. Thing is, DM had nothing Jones wanted. He was lineal in a time when Lineal was losing its luster (kinda like now) and Jones was unified and Ring. I think it's both their faults.

[Vantage_West]

you may say well roy jones would of beaten him...of course he would, few people could out smart him or out skill him. jones was p4p before he got to light heavy so what
and once your p4p your whole bringing level increases...floyd mayweather has challenges coming out of his ears. becuase he is p4p. roy when he was p4p was the main attraction basicly and that makes making and breaking fights EASY as hell.

jones
at super middlewieght fought antoine byrd,james toney,vinny pazienza (former lightwieght) and tony thornton. all good to great super middlewieghts his wipe out of james toney was amazing. antoine byrd was a good fighter with alot of skills just didnt have the chin but had defence that could make up for it just was pounced on and destroyed, paz was very game but was just too small too lathargic and just got caught and caught again and again. tony thompson good fighter very high stamina and workrate just had very little punches only a jab a cross and a left hook to his name.


now those are some great wins but wait....only 1 guy was a titlst when he beat him only 3 world champions...so why are we disputing whethe rroy jones reign or joe calzaghes reign was better becuase really calzaghe takes this by a country mile.

[Stinky gloves]

"Now you tell me with a straight face that, other than Lacy and Mitchell (who was basically shot at that point), that isn't a really crappy lineup of fighters to be facing for a champion. It's not horrible on the level of Pong or Calderon, but that's 7 YEARS of facing only 2 guys who were top 5 contenders at the time he fought them. From '97 - '00, Calzaghe fought a respectable schedule, but he just hasn't since then."

But you conveniently chose the last 5 year period?

The point is Calzaghe should be top pvp fighter since 1997.

You may just look at Taylor or Wright who become pvp fighters just after one or two good
wins and it takes years to remove them form top 10 pvp list no matter they wins or lose.

If Calzaghe was from US he would became top pvp fighter in 1997-2000
and since he did not lost any one fight he would be moving up constantly.
He would be #1 right after he beat Lacy.

Not mention that his fight with Manfredo would be called another fight of the century.

[kg0208]

you may say well roy jones would of beaten him...of course he would, few people could out smart him or out skill him. jones was p4p before he got to light heavy so what
and once your p4p your whole bringing level increases...floyd mayweather has challenges coming out of his ears. becuase he is p4p. roy when he was p4p was the main attraction basicly and that makes making and breaking fights EASY as hell.

jones
at super middlewieght fought antoine byrd,james toney,vinny pazienza (former lightwieght) and tony thornton. all good to great super middlewieghts his wipe out of james toney was amazing. antoine byrd was a good fighter with alot of skills just didnt have the chin but had defence that could make up for it just was pounced on and destroyed, paz was very game but was just too small too lathargic and just got caught and caught again and again. tony thompson good fighter very high stamina and workrate just had very little punches only a jab a cross and a left hook to his name.


now those are some great wins but wait....only 1 guy was a titlst when he beat him only 3 world champions...so why are we disputing whethe rroy jones reign or joe calzaghes reign was better becuase really calzaghe takes this by a country mile.
You show me where we are comparing Jones reign to Calzaghe's reign and you will have an argument. You said this...

us brits make a fuss about this is that he was a top p4p fighter fighting the best guys he could find...most of them were real contenders and he's fought 6 world champions...roy jones didnt do that nor did bernard.
I think you're making a bit of a spin here if you are now trying to infer that you meant Jones SMW career as opposed to Calzaghe's. Jones had 12 fights at SMW only while Calzaghe has never fought anywhere else. You should have said SMW if you meant SMW. As it seems, you are now saying you are comparing Calzaghe's entire career to less than a 1/4th of Jones as a way of making a valid argument that Jones was somehow getting some kind of pass because he was American and thats why he was #1 P4P.

Your statement implies that you are taking about their careers as p4p fighters, not their SMW reigns.

[Brickhaus]

But you conveniently chose the last 5 year period?


I went since 2001, which is 7 years. I could go back less if you want, but it would only improve my argument. Why the heck would you go back 10 years? What does what someone did 10 years ago have any bearing on their ability to fight today? If we're looking back 10 years, then Roy Jones Jr. should still be P4P #1 :rofl

I can see where he might have gotten into the top 10 back in 2000, but his lack of doing anything to maintain the ranking means he probably would have dropped out of the top 10 by 2005. I can't think of an example of someone fighting nobodies for years and remaining a P4P fighter. People would have passed him over and pushed him back down.

Not mention that his fight with Manfredo would be called another fight of the century.

OK, now I know you're yanking my leg.

[cross_trainer]

:patsch you silly moo
he was fighting top 10 supermiddlewieghts for 10 years mostly unbased fighters who fight in europe not U.S.

us brits make a fuss about this is that he was a top p4p fighter fighting the best guys he could find...most of them were real contenders and he's fought 6 world champions...roy jones didnt do that nor did bernard.

it's just this biased cant be fuckedness about american "sport" fans who know boxing but not alot to make unbiased decisions.

how many times have you heard a snobbish attitude towards european fighters...just the other day we had a poll about kelley pavlik-arthur abraham and most guys saying arthur hanst fought great compatition.

also SOOO many fighters get a titles shot after winning the USBC or NABC titles...why??? is the commonwealth belt or the european belt not worth the same wieght becuase of it.

Kessler (if/when he beats Calzaghe) will have accomplished more than Calzaghe has in his career. It's not being European that's the problem--it's fighting low-grade competition.

[Dorfmeister]

No, his competition has been shit.

Noooooo, how come? I fell that if Calzaghe was american he would be nº1 PPV ( or PvP) because he would be seen both in America and in Wales. HBO could propose american citizenship for Joe and that would be a good business idea.

[cross_trainer]

Noooooo, how come? I fell that if Calzaghe was american he would be nº1 PPV ( or PvP) because he would be seen both in America and in Wales. HBO could propose american citizenship for Joe and that would be a good business idea.

It's fascinating how some Calzaghe fans here insist that Americans are incapable of judging fighters' performances objectively. If you want to appreciate British fighters, why not look to guys like Hatton (better, more exciting fighter than Calzaghe, and who actually managed to fight for a linear title)?

I am baffled.

[Stinky gloves]

I went since 2001, which is 7 years. I could go back less if you want, but it would only improve my argument. Why the heck would you go back 10 years? What does what someone did 10 years ago have any bearing on their ability to fight today? If we're looking back 10 years, then Roy Jones Jr. should still be P4P #1 :rofl

I can see where he might have gotten into the top 10 back in 2000, but his lack of doing anything to maintain the ranking means he probably would have dropped out of the top 10 by 2005. I can't think of an example of someone fighting nobodies for years and remaining a P4P fighter. People would have passed him over and pushed him back down.

OK, now I know you're yanking my leg.
Jones lost brutaly 2x, Calzaghe not, that the difference. :deal

The point is: its harder lost pvp status than to get one, just look at Wright or Taylor.
The other point is: its harder get pvp status if you are not from US or fight in US.
If you combine both then it is obvious that if Calzage was US friendly he should become
top pvp fighter in years 1997-2000.

And since he did not lost any one fight (oposite to Jones) he would never be out of top 10 pvp.
Each new win, no mater what oposition he faced would give him constant increase in the ranks.
Finally the fight with Lacy which was already for ring belt would give Calzaghe also ring PVP #1 spot.

[China_hand_Joe]

Why are people bringing up Jones' great resume? Of course Jones had a great resume is is the next best fighter of all time after Calzaghe.

I did a thread 12 months ago, at that time the number on the record of Calzaghe were superior to those on Mayweather's. I looked atthe records of his victims, victims victims. It was very in depth and proved, put the names aside, and Calzaghe's resume is superior to almost everyone.

Calzaghe's resume is vastly superior to Bernard Hopkins for example (especially in the last 5 years), fame of opponents aside.

People see Mayweather's win over Gatti as somehow better than Calzaghe's quicker, more ruthless destruction over the superior, prime Peter Manfredo.

[Stinky gloves]

Kessler (if/when he beats Calzaghe) will have accomplished more than Calzaghe has in his career. It's not being European that's the problem--it's fighting low-grade competition.

Assume Taylor and Calzaghe vs Pavlik and Kessler.
If Kessler beats Calzaghe should he be higher at top pvp list than Pavlik?

[BewareofDawg]

Never unified, held the least reputable of the four belts, and didn't fight many top-flight opponents. If he was American, he might have been rated higher, but there's no way he'd be P4P #1.
Or undefeated.

[China_hand_Joe]

It's fascinating how some Calzaghe fans here insist that Americans are incapable of judging fighters' performances objectively. If you want to appreciate British fighters, why not look to guys like Hatton (better, more exciting fighter than Calzaghe, and who actually managed to fight for a linear title)?

I am baffled.
Apart from a few fools from Manchester everyone has chosen to follow Calzaghe. He isn't particularly media friendly, so there is likely a good reason people rate him so much higher.

[Stinky gloves]

Or undefeated.

Who exactly would defeate him and when?

[kg0208]

Jones lost brutaly 2x, Calzaghe not, that the difference. :deal

The point is: its harder lost pvp status than to get one, just look at Wright or Taylor.
The other point is: its harder get pvp status if you are not from US or fight in US.
If you combine both then it is obvious that if Calzage was US friendly he should become
top pvp fighter in years 1997-2000.

And since he did not lost any one fight (oposite to Jones) he would never be out of top 10 pvp.
Each new win, no mater what oposition he faced would give him constant increase in the ranks.
Finally the fight with Lacy which was already for ring belt would give Calzaghe also ring PVP #1 spot.

Not losing a fight is not the only criteria, as I am sure you know. Otherwise, Pacman wouldn't be #2. Also, WHO you fight is a big deal. Jones won a HW title then dropped 2 weight classes to fight Tarver, the LHW champion. Jones had at that point fought 7 champions at 175 and 3 that actually had titles when he fought them, where as Calzaghe has only ever fought 1 current champion in his division. You are simplifying the argument to give yourself an advantage that simply doesn't exist.

[kg0208]

Why are people bringing up Jones' great resume? Of course Jones had a great resume is is the next best fighter of all time after Calzaghe.

I did a thread 12 months ago, at that time the number on the record of Calzaghe were superior to those on Mayweather's. I looked atthe records of his victims, victims victims. It was very in depth and proved, put the names aside, and Calzaghe's resume is superior to almost everyone.

Calzaghe's resume is vastly superior to Bernard Hopkins for example (especially in the last 5 years), fame of opponents aside.

People see Mayweather's win over Gatti as somehow better than Calzaghe's quicker, more ruthless destruction over the superior, prime Peter Manfredo.

I think that is because Gatti is a more accomplished and more proven fighter than Manfredo, who has done absolutely nothing:hat

[China_hand_Joe]

Gatti at that time was worse than ever.

Look what Gomez did to him. Gatti's timing was gone, his stamina awful, his reflexes none existant. Gatti was also as stupid as ever. Manfredo on the other hand is superior to anything Gatti has been in the past 5 years, by a comfortable margin.

[kg0208]

Gatti at that time was worse than ever.

Look what Gomez did to him. Gatti's timing was gone, his stamina awful, his reflexes none existant. Gatti was also as stupid as ever. Manfredo on the other hand is superior to anything Gatti has been in the past 5 years, by a comfortable margin.

Gatti lost to Gomez nearly 2 years later than the version PBF fought. And Gatti was on a win streak at the time.

[cross_trainer]

Apart from a few fools from Manchester everyone has chosen to follow Calzaghe. He isn't particularly media friendly, so there is likely a good reason people rate him so much higher.

If more people believe it, it must be true?

An intriguing idea. Now, since the United States outnumbers Britain by 5-1...

[China_hand_Joe]

Gatti lost to Gomez nearly 2 years later than the version PBF fought. And Gatti was on a win streak at the time.

Manfredo was on a more impressive winning streak. KOing them too, even though they were old fighters.

[China_hand_Joe]

If more people believe it, it must be true?

An intriguing idea. Now, since the United States outnumbers Britain by 5-1...

Against media momentum, it is likely people rank Calzaghe higher due to his abilities.

Americans have nothing to do with the proportion of fans who rank Hatton and Calzaghe differently in a localised area (the UK).

I take it your mood has changed from a few days ago?

[McGrain]

Kessler (if/when he beats Calzaghe) will have accomplished more than Calzaghe has in his career. It's not being European that's the problem--it's fighting low-grade competition.


Yeah, I would agree with this.

Whereas Joe is in a position of having to wait and see what his win over Kessler is worth if he wins...

[Stinky gloves]

Not losing a fight is not the only criteria, as I am sure you know. Otherwise, Pacman wouldn't be #2. Also, WHO you fight is a big deal. Jones won a HW title then dropped 2 weight classes to fight Tarver, the LHW champion. Jones had at that point fought 7 champions at 175 and 3 that actually had titles when he fought them, where as Calzaghe has only ever fought 1 current champion in his division. You are simplifying the argument to give yourself an advantage that simply doesn't exist.
Not only criteria but right after you get to the top then doesn't matter who you fight.
Calzaghe should be PfP fighetr in 1997-2000 area.
If he was he would be at the same level as Hopkins before he lost to Taylor.
Hopkins oposition was poor for years and his only big wins were over the much
smaller guys who carried on pfp status.

If Calzaghe was pfp before 2000 then no matter who he fought will gave him strong position at the top.
Lacy was overhyped but he would be even more overyped if he was suppoosed to fight Joe as top p4p fighter.
Definitely Lacy - Calzaghe would be for top 1 or 2 pfp then.

[kg0208]

Manfredo was on a more impressive winning streak. KOing them too, even though they were old fighters.

Two wins in a row is not a streak.

[McGrain]

Two wins in a row is not a streak.


It could be seen as such subjectively - remember you are speaking to someone who resides in a universe that is entirely Calaghe dependant.

[kg0208]

Not only criteria but right after you get to the top then doesn't matter who you fight.
Calzaghe should be PfP fighetr in 1997-2000 area.
If he was he would be at the same level as Hopkins before he lost to Taylor.
Hopkins oposition was poor for years and his only big wins were over the much
smaller guys who carried on pfp status.

If Calzaghe was pfp before 2000 then no matter who he fought will gave him strong position at the top.
Lacy was overhyped but he would be even more overyped if he was suppoosed to fight Joe as top p4p fighter.
Definitely Lacy - Calzaghe would be for top 1 or 2 pfp then.

Your competition matters when you're at the top as well.

Hopkins unified his division, Calzaghe didn't. Your criteria is flawed because you are dismissing certain areas seemingly for the sake of making your argument stronger.

[kg0208]

It could be seen as such subjectively - remember you are speaking to someone who resides in a universe that is entirely Calaghe dependant.

Even then, 2 wins is not as impressive as 5 and over ranked competition AND winning a title.

[Fedor Em]

There in no possible chance in the world that Cal would be over Floyd if he was from New York or wherever. Calzaghe is a great champion and a top 5 p4p fighter but his competation has been too weak, and don't give me that prime Robin Reid would have beat Hopkins bullshit. Hopkins would have won that fight 9 rounds to 3 or 10-2 with both at their peak. Lacy was very legit when Joe tamed him, that was the only B+ fighter Joe fought since a fading Eubank(who I would say was still a B+ level when Joe beat him).

Now if Joe beats Kessler who I think is the best fighter he has ever gotten in the ring with he might be #2 p4p on my list.

[McGrain]

There in no possible chance in the world that Cal would be over Floyd if he was from New York or wherever. Calzaghe is a great champion and a top 5 p4p fighter but his competation has been too weak, and don't give me that prime Robin Reid would have beat Hopkins bullshit. Hopkins would have won that fight 9 rounds to 3 or 10-2 with both at their peak. Lacy was very legit when Joe tamed him, that was the only B+ fighter Joe fought since a fading Eubank(who I would say was still a B+ level when Joe beat him).

Now if Joe beats Kessler who I think is the best fighter he has ever gotten in the ring with he might be #2 p4p on my list.


This is a good post I think.

[radianttwilight]

No, if Calzaghe was American we'd see him as a fraud and call him out for ducking, not only from neighboring divisions but also from his own. Because he's from Wales his fanboys get to claim that everyone is "too skurred to cross the pond" to fight him.

Calzaghe may have been in the top 10 P4P in 1997-2000, but the lack of credible opposition following that would have bumped him back out. The other alternative is that being top 10 P4P would've made him fight a couple of legit contenders...something he seems to have avoided like the plague.

Who in most people's top 10 P4P list has stayed in it based on wins over inferior fighters? The only exception seems to be Joe Calzaghe, who, if he was American, would've gotten a #1 ranking after demolishing BIKA, MANFREDO, AND LACY.

Truth is that Calzaghe has an undeniably shitty resume, regardless of his undefeated status. he's made HOW many title defences, and HOW many have been against ranked contenders?

[bumdujour]

And would have been for years.

yeah, that win over tucker pudwill had me thinking the same thing:lol: :lol:

[pipe wrenched]

Have you missed out on how most American's treat a suspect resume, such as Taylor's for instance?

[Stinky gloves]

Your competition matters when you're at the top as well.

Hopkins unified his division, Calzaghe didn't. Your criteria is flawed because you are dismissing certain areas seemingly for the sake of making your argument stronger.
My argument is, it was easier for Taylor or Winky get to the top and is harder to remove them from there.
Only recently Joe have p4p recognision after .... he beat OVERHYPED Lacy.
How Lacy was overhyped? ... because he was US last line of defense.

So doesn't matter that Joe fought a few world champions before 2000.
The fight with overhyped by US media Lacy gave him proper p4p status.
Now the fight with Kessler may give him #2 spot or even #1 if Floyd and PAC lose next fight.

However if Calzage would have the same p4p status (as he have right now) before 2000,
then he should fight for top #1 or top #2 with Lacy back then ... not now.

[Laydown]

Dude, these are his last 3 fights, of course people will emphasise them.

For a top p4p fighter at an advanced stage of his career to fight Bika and Manfredo is a total joke and an insult to true boxing fans.

That true - but he has stepped up finally -

[Marnoff]

No.

[Laydown]

There in no possible chance in the world that Cal would be over Floyd if he was from New York or wherever. Calzaghe is a great champion and a top 5 p4p fighter but his competation has been too weak, and don't give me that prime Robin Reid would have beat Hopkins bullshit. Hopkins would have won that fight 9 rounds to 3 or 10-2 with both at their peak. Lacy was very legit when Joe tamed him, that was the only B+ fighter Joe fought since a fading Eubank(who I would say was still a B+ level when Joe beat him).

Now if Joe beats Kessler who I think is the best fighter he has ever gotten in the ring with he might be #2 p4p on my list.

Very good post

[Amsterdam]

Yeah, I would agree with this.

Whereas Joe is in a position of having to wait and see what his win over Kessler is worth if he wins...

That won't be a problem, because Kessler is worth much more than most fighters are, I am being unbiased in that also, really impressed with Kessler.:D

[McGrain]

That won't be a problem, because Kessler is worth much more than most fighters are, I am being unbiased in that also, really impressed with Kessler.:D

I think so too, but if Kessler goes on to lose to every elite fighter he takes on because of an inability to dig in/catch up/get up, Calzaghe suffers for it.

Your opinion of Kessler is only relevant if Kessler retires after his loss. Then there is an argument to be had.

[Amsterdam]

I think so too, but if Kessler goes on to lose to every elite fighter he takes on because of an inability to dig in/catch up/get up, Calzaghe suffers for it.

Your opinion of Kessler is only relevant if Kessler retires after his loss. Then there is an argument to be had.

Sure and I am not trying to pump up a Calzaghe win, I really think this guy Kessler is something significant. If Kessler beat Calzaghe, I would not be sad.

He'd have to open up a new dimension, but all the better you know.

I just hope win or lose that he doesn't get ducked and avoided, his competition so far has been very good coming into this bout in my opinion, a lot of different styles and what not and to only lose 5-6 rounds total out of that...:yep

[McGrain]

Sure and I am not trying to pump up a Calzaghe win, I really think this guy Kessler is something significant. If Kessler beat Calzaghe, I would not be sad.

He'd have to open up a new dimension, but all the better you know.

I just hope win or lose that he doesn't get ducked and avoided, his competition so far has been very good coming into this bout in my opinion, a lot of different styles and what not and to only lose 5-6 rounds total out of that...:yep

Yeah, he looks like he has the goods, but as you know, we don't really know. As you hint, for Kessler to win he has to find another 15% (ish).

If he has that he will be formidable indeed.

[Amsterdam]

Yeah, he looks like he has the goods, but as you know, we don't really know. As you hint, for Kessler to win he has to find another 15% (ish).

If he has that he will be formidable indeed.

Yes, but in this bout, he needs the extra kick due to styles. Calzaghe's style disrupts Kessler's badly, Kessler can 'control' most other fights by simply controlling fight and this even goes for one of my current favourites Chad Dawson.

Everyone needs to forget about the Hopkins and the Tarvers, those old names are irrelevant to the true top fighters at their best, because those names are badly faded.

[McGrain]

Yes, but in this bout, he needs the extra kick due to styles. Calzaghe's style disrupts Kessler's badly, Kessler can 'control' most other fights by simply controlling fight and this even goes for one of my current favourites Chad Dawson.

Everyone needs to forget about the Hopkins and the Tarvers, those old names are irrelevant to the true top fighters at their best, because those names are badly faded.

Hopkins is always going to be a difficult night for anyone (till he's about fifty, as the man once said) so I object to you lumping him in for Tarver.

Hopkins would still be a special win for Calzaghe - Tarver really wouldn't, you know?

[nervousxtian]

CHJ, just said that Manfredo is a better opponent than Gatti?

The Gatti fight was a joke, but Arturo was beating some pretty stiff competition, and has wins over legit guys, something that Manfredo has NEVER had.

Never.

..and it's not like I don't like Manfredo, I like him for what he is, and what he is isn't a top 10, or even top 15 level guy. He's a good B- level guy though, and he'll put up a good fight, but he'll always lose to elite and A level.

[Amsterdam]

Hopkins is always going to be a difficult night for anyone (till he's about fifty, as the man once said) so I object to you lumping him in for Tarver.

Hopkins would still be a special win for Calzaghe - Tarver really wouldn't, you know?

Hopkins at this point is not going to deal with a larger man than Wright who also has a workrate and is competent with timing. People romanticise about his victories because of his age, but any LHW who had issue's with Wright at 170 is not going to do well as SMW or LHW IMO, 42 or not.

Tarver's about to get bitched by Danny Green, what a laugh that'll be.:yep

[nervousxtian]

Tarver was never really that good. His loss to Johnson showed that, as Johnson is a good solid guy, but someone any A level guy should beat. He's a measuring stick kind of guy, and it proved Tarvers level.

Besides, he's old, so is Jones. We knew Tarvers reign would be short to begin with.

[cross_trainer]

Against media momentum, it is likely people rank Calzaghe higher due to his abilities.

Americans have nothing to do with the proportion of fans who rank Hatton and Calzaghe differently in a localised area (the UK).

I take it your mood has changed from a few days ago?

Yes. I have a little more energy and time on my hands at the moment.

In any event...I would take your opinion on Calzaghe's "media attention" with a few hunks of salt. They're trying to "sell" him here on HBO and ESPN from time to time, and I'm sure the Lacy fight contributed a great deal to his popularity in the U.K. Your claims that the media is anti-Calzaghe strike me as similar those who complain about a "leftist" media--driven by your own views rather than objective.

[McGrain]

Hopkins at this point is not going to deal with a larger man than Wright who also has a workrate and is competent with timing. People romanticise about his victories because of his age, but any LHW who had issue's with Wright at 170 is not going to do well as SMW or LHW IMO, 42 or not.

Nobody has outclassed him since peak Jones.

I personally will take what comes over what might be.

[gutto]

sorry imo no way joe takes number 1 spot even if he beats kessler hes good but anit that good

[kg0208]

My argument is, it was easier for Taylor or Winky get to the top and is harder to remove them from there.
Only recently Joe have p4p recognision after .... he beat OVERHYPED Lacy.
How Lacy was overhyped? ... because he was US last line of defense.

So doesn't matter that Joe fought a few world champions before 2000.
The fight with overhyped by US media Lacy gave him proper p4p status.
Now the fight with Kessler may give him #2 spot or even #1 if Floyd and PAC lose next fight.

However if Calzage would have the same p4p status (as he have right now) before 2000,
then he should fight for top #1 or top #2 with Lacy back then ... not now.

But there is no reason for him to have p4p status before then. Wright beat world champion fighters as did Taylor. You're comparison isn't valid.

You are trying to arbitrarily promote Calzaghe to P4P status before 2000....but based on what? And Taylor BTW, was dropped from most P4P lists before he lost to Pavlik, even further disproving your theory.

[Kamil]

I'm really getting sick of hearing of JC, he didnt prove shit to me yet....... Hope Kessler fuks his ass up cuz of u guys hahaha :lol: :lol:

[Kamil]

And would have been for years.

Very Dumb Post
1. he would of not fought Bums in the states, and 2. no way he be pasing JONES or MAYWEATHER, you guys overrating JC waaaay too much, cut the bullshit and let the man prove ur words

[MrStayman]

To be pound for pound #1, you have to defeat other pound for pound fighters. It's that simple, really.

[Carlos Primera]

it's true while calzaghe was fighting robin reid
roy was fighting police officers
and hopkins fighting punching postmen.

as amazing as roy jones is/was his defences werent top quality till later on when he was just taking fights of any belt he could...why do you think roy would fight calzaghe when he wouldnt fight dariusz michaelwski (sorry all polish posters im rubbish with names:patsch ) the lineal light heavywieght champ?
rjj has a glass jaw:yep

[nervousxtian]

He probably wouldn't be undefeated... and it has nothing to do with being American, it is about taking big fights.

The truth is that Joe never left home, and his refusal to leave home will always be his downfall. He never held a major title until Lacy, and he wasn't going to get the big name titleists to travel there to fight him, because they shouldn't have to and they don't need too.

Until Lacy, he never had champs coming to him, and Lacy only went because he wasn't big enough to call out Lacy to have to come to him, which of course Joe never would have came. Because that's his MO.

[Jose FM]

Gawd, you brits make me sick...

[Vantage_West]

You show me where we are comparing Jones reign to Calzaghe's reign and you will have an argument. You said this...


I think you're making a bit of a spin here if you are now trying to infer that you meant Jones SMW career as opposed to Calzaghe's. Jones had 12 fights at SMW only while Calzaghe has never fought anywhere else. You should have said SMW if you meant SMW. As it seems, you are now saying you are comparing Calzaghe's entire career to less than a 1/4th of Jones as a way of making a valid argument that Jones was somehow getting some kind of pass because he was American and thats why he was #1 P4P.

Your statement implies that you are taking about their careers as p4p fighters, not their SMW reigns.well yeah...why do you see so many top smw threads or p4p ranking all times and for some reason roy pops up? as good as he was at all the wieghts he has fought at...light heavy is his stomping ground and for guys just to say roy jones instead of calzaghe is rude man...:hi: comeon we are all friends here:rasta (now pass to the left)

[Vantage_West]

[quote=kg0208]You're comparison isn't valid.

[quote]
are we robots now:rofl LIQUID METAL

[THN]

If and if, i recond he would be a world champion then

[China_hand_Joe]

Yes. I have a little more energy and time on my hands at the moment.

In any event...I would take your opinion on Calzaghe's "media attention" with a few hunks of salt. They're trying to "sell" him here on HBO and ESPN from time to time, and I'm sure the Lacy fight contributed a great deal to his popularity in the U.K. Your claims that the media is anti-Calzaghe strike me as similar those who complain about a "leftist" media--driven by your own views rather than objective.

It isn't anti-Calzaghe, just an overload on Hatton.

[kg0208]

well yeah...why do you see so many top smw threads or p4p ranking all times and for some reason roy pops up? as good as he was at all the wieghts he has fought at...light heavy is his stomping ground and for guys just to say roy jones instead of calzaghe is rude man...:hi: comeon we are all friends here:rasta (now pass to the left)
Has nothing to do with what I said. As I said before, Jones fought more champions than Calzaghe. You seem to be trying to narrow the criteria for your comparison down as much as possible so that Calzaghe can come out on top so you're argument has validity. It doesn't work otherwise.

[kg0208]

[quote=kg0208]You're comparison isn't valid.

[quote]
are we robots now:rofl LIQUID METAL

Wow...how witty:good

[radianttwilight]

If we're going to try to rank Calzaghe as P4P #1 based on wins such as Eubank, Reid, etc from so far long ago, he stands even less of a chance.

If JC gets to use names from 1997 on his resume, then so does De La Hoya, Trinidad, RJJ, Hopkins, Lewis, Mosley, Forrest, Whitaker, Chavez etc.

JC doesn't stand a CHANCE stacking his resume with these guys. People here are trying to use his "old" wins as a way to trump new P4Pers, but they are trying to EXCLUDE people whose "old wins" came as recent, or even more recently than Calzaghe, and that's not the way it works.

And I can tell you one thing, and that's that JC's record has NOTHING on a true P4Per.

[Axe]

Jones was more of a draw than DM was, especially on PPV when he had a credible opponent and was certainly better known.

And neither was too keen on making the necessary concessions to make the fight. Thing is, DM had nothing Jones wanted. He was lineal in a time when Lineal was losing its luster (kinda like now) and Jones was unified and Ring. I think it's both their faults.

Agreed, Jones' team and DM's promoters share the blame. :good

[kg0208]

Agreed, Jones' team and DM's promoters share the blame. :good

I really wonder what goes on in these negotiations. Do you think they ever say "Come on man, the fans really wanna see this fight, lets get it done!" or do you think its all about risk/reward?

[Alo2006]

Nope!

[David UK]

If he was american he would have got his ass kicked by RJJ or BHOP.

Both had the chance to fight Calzaghe and neither accepted. Hopkins even went as far as agreeing to the fight only to DOUBLE his financial demands sometime later, which is the same as ducking to anyone in the know

[David UK]

The truth is that Joe never left home, and his refusal to leave home will always be his downfall. He never held a major title until Lacy, and he wasn't going to get the big name titleists to travel there to fight him, because they shouldn't have to and they don't need too.



Simply not true. It's easy enough to check these things to save yourself the embarrasment!! Calzaghe has fought overseas twice. Not many I'll admit but that compares more than favourably with Hopkins,Jones, Taylor,Mayweather. Go and check on BoxRec

[Sedona]

I'm confident Joe would have been elevated to PFP #1 after his win against Dookie Pudwill... then elevated to status of GOD, upon his thrilling win against Peter Manfredo, if only he was a Yank.

[PH|LLA]

what does the v stand for in PvP?

[China_hand_Joe]

Who are these big name fighters that would have beaten Calzaghe? Hopkins might not have ducked Calzaghe were he American, but he'd still have lost.