Prime Marciano vs. 36 year old Holyfield

[cross_trainer]

The version of Marciano who beat Louis against the version of Holyfield who fought Lennox.

Who wins, and how?

[dmt]

Marciano

[MrMagic]

Marciano
Probably by knockout.

[mr. magoo]

The version of Marciano who beat Louis against the version of Holyfield who fought Lennox.

Who wins, and how?

Interesting matchup

Holyfield at 36 was showing noticable signs of deterioration in the areas of reflexes, power, and stamina in the later rounds. He also didn't seem to show as much enthusiasm as he did in his earlier days against Dokes, Stewart, Douglas and Bowe. Neverthless, he was still very competitive and managed to win fragments of the title and took a very formidable Lewis the distance, then split a 3 fight series with John Ruiz later.

Marciano in 1951, was begining to get the attention of a lot of fans and experts. He had won all of his professional fights, and by this time was around 28 years old? He had some good learning experiences and defeated some very good fighters particularly in Roland Lastarza and Rex Layne. Rocky had demonstrated that he was not only a one of a kind puncher, but a durable fighter who could go the distance and come back when behind on points. Additionally, he had a swarming style that few heavyweights had ever truly employed, that would later be emulated by such fighters as Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson.

THE MATCHUP

By this point in his career, Evander Holyfield had already demonstrated that he could handle fighters who lowered their center of gravity and moved in close to try and crowd their opponents. Mike Tyson and Burt Cooper were examples of such fighers. In additon, he showed that he was still capable at age 36 of going the distance and taking hard shots from world class heavyweights, while returning the favor where he could. Marciano was a very formidable opponent and would have been a threat to Evander at his advanced age. Marciano however, was still in the learning process of his career, and even when he peaked later against the Walcotts and Charles' of the world would still struggle to beat older men. What's more, he would likely be facing a slightly larger and stronger fighter in Holyfield than that of Walcott, Charles or Louis. Rocky was deadly on the inside, but Evander had shown numerous times that he could neutralize the inside attacks of the shorter swarmer types. He also had the upper body strength to wrestle with Marciano in the clinches that Louis might not have had in 1951. Antother small factor is that Holyfield had a rather accurate and solid left hook-a punch that commonly troubled marciano. It also usually took a much larger boxer/puncher type to get the better of Holyfield even at a later age. Lastly, I see quite a bit of clashing of heads in this matchup, weather intentional or accidental. If such an occurence were to happen, Marciano would likely get the shorter end of the stick, and possibly sustain one or multiple cuts.

I make no convictions about who takes this one, but my inclination is to go with Holyfield by a razor thin decision in a 10 or 12 round fight. If the bout was scheduled for 15, I might give the edge to Marciano, because by age 36 it had been quite some time since Holyfield had gone to such lengths.

[dmt]

Interesting matchup

Holyfield at 36 was showing noticable signs of deterioration in the areas of reflexes, power, and stamina in the later rounds. He also didn't seem to show as much enthusiasm as he did in his earlier days against Dokes, Stewart, Douglas and Bowe. Neverthless, he was still very competitive and managed to win fragments of the title and took a very formidable Lewis the distance, then split a 3 fight series with John Ruiz later.

Marciano in 1951, was begining to get the attention of a lot of fans and experts. He had won all of his professional fights, and by this time was around 28 years old? He had some good learning experiences and defeated some very good fighters particularly in Roland Lastarza and Rex Layne. Rocky had demonstrated that he was not only a one of a kind puncher, but a durable fighter who could go the distance and come back when behind on points. Additionally, he had a swarming style that few heavyweights had ever truly employed, that would later be emulated by such fighters as Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson.

THE MATCHUP

By this point in his career, Evander Holyfield had already demonstrated that he could handle fighters who lowered their center of gravity and moved in close to try and crowd their opponents. Mike Tyson and Burt Cooper were examples of such fighers. In additon, he showed that he was still capable at age 36 of going the distance and taking hard shots from world class heavyweights, while returning the favor where he could. Marciano was a very formidable opponent and would have been a threat to Evander at his advanced age. Marciano however, was still in the learning process of his career, and even when he peaked later against the Walcotts and Charles' of the world would still struggle to beat older men. What's more, he would likely be facing a slightly larger and stronger fighter in Holyfield than that of Walcott, Charles or Louis. Rocky was deadly on the inside, but Evander had shown numerous times that he could neutralize the inside attacks of the shorter swarmer types. He also had the upper body strength to wrestle with Marciano in the clinches that Louis might not have had in 1951. Antother small factor is that Holyfield had a rather accurate and solid left hook-a punch that commonly troubled marciano. It also usually took a much larger boxer/puncher type to get the better of Holyfield even at a later age.

I make no convictions about who takes this one, but my inclination is to go with Holyfield by a razor thin decision in a 10 or 12 round fight. If the bout was scheduled for 15, I might give the edge to Marciano, because by age 36 it had been quite some time since Holyfield had gone to such lengths.that's some good analysis, however Charles was much younger then Evander and Walcott trickier overall.

[janitor]

They say that all being equal a fight generaly goes to the person who wants it the most.

This would be the first time that either man had been in with sombody who wanted it as much as them.

I would expect to see something intense.

[PowerPuncher]

Why I think Holyfield wins a UD

Strength/Size - 217lbs of ripped muscle versus 180lbs of ripped muscle - Holyfield can back Marciano up, push him back in clinches

Reach/Height - 78inch versus 68? 6'2 versus 5'11

Jabbing - Holyfield can jab Marciano from range easily, if Marciano moves inside the bigger Holy can push him back

Speed - Holyfields greater speed & reach means he can beat Marciano to the punch most of the night

High workrate - not as high as prime or as high as MArcianos but Holyfield had a higher workrate than Marciano was used to from his opponents. It would be quality versus quantity with Marciano throwing more and landing less

Power - Holyfield had very good power, maybe a bigger puncher than Marciano had taken - thats up for debate

Movement - Holyfield is the better mover and boxer.

Holyfield wouldn't have it all his all way and Marcianos relentless assaults would get him some rounds. 8-4 Holyfield UD or 9-6 in a 15rounder

[Luigi1985]

Marciano- KO, easily. Holyfield at this age couldn´t go succesfully the pace Rocky went...

[cross_trainer]

How about a prime Marciano vs a black little person with no arms.Even that is too much of a challenge for Marciano.

You are welcome to make that thread if it will make you feel better. :lol:

[radianttwilight]

The X factor here is Holyfield's head. Marciano's face was prone to cuts, and if there is one thing you can count on in a Holyfield fight it's that he's gonna be dishing out some head lovin' :good

[RoccoMarciano]

How about a prime Marciano vs a black little person with no arms.Even that is too much of a challenge for Marciano.

Is everything race BS with you? As far as I'm concerned you should get kicked from the forum

[NickHudson]

I don't remember these physical advantages helping Holyfield very much for his matchup with teeny, weeny little Bobby Czyz who was 16 years and 6 losses into his pro career, and normally operated as a Light Heavy.

Granted Holyfield won, but how did the fight pan out? What actually happened when they stepped in the ring? The fight stats do not tell the whole story. I remember how surprised everyone was at how awful Holyfield looked against such as small, over the hill, limited opponent who was shot and right at the end of his career.

Your analysis is naive. There is so much more to boxing than one guy being taller and having longer arms than another.

We could just do a tale of the tape and leave it at that. Then noone would ever get hurt.

Greatest boxer of all time? Arnold Schwarzenegger, obviously. I mean, have you seen how big his guns were in 'Pumping Iron.'

1996 Czyz is not even 5% the fighter Marciano was.

Why I think Holyfield wins a UD

Strength/Size - 217lbs of ripped muscle versus 180lbs of ripped muscle - Holyfield can back Marciano up, push him back in clinches

Reach/Height - 78inch versus 68? 6'2 versus 5'11

Jabbing - Holyfield can jab Marciano from range easily, if Marciano moves inside the bigger Holy can push him back

Speed - Holyfields greater speed & reach means he can beat Marciano to the punch most of the night

High workrate - not as high as prime or as high as MArcianos but Holyfield had a higher workrate than Marciano was used to from his opponents. It would be quality versus quantity with Marciano throwing more and landing less

Power - Holyfield had very good power, maybe a bigger puncher than Marciano had taken - thats up for debate

Movement - Holyfield is the better mover and boxer.

Holyfield wouldn't have it all his all way and Marcianos relentless assaults would get him some rounds. 8-4 Holyfield UD or 9-6 in a 15rounder

[Calroid]

Marciano by KO.

[janitor]

I actualy think that the cruiserweight Holyfield would have a better chance against Marciano than the heavyweight version.

The atributes he will really need here are workrate, speed and stamina not strength.

[The Kurgan]

Why I think Holyfield wins a UD

Strength/Size - 217lbs of ripped muscle versus 180lbs of ripped muscle - Holyfield can back Marciano up, push him back in clinches

Reach/Height - 78inch versus 68? 6'2 versus 5'11

Jabbing - Holyfield can jab Marciano from range easily, if Marciano moves inside the bigger Holy can push him back

Speed - Holyfields greater speed & reach means he can beat Marciano to the punch most of the night

High workrate - not as high as prime or as high as MArcianos but Holyfield had a higher workrate than Marciano was used to from his opponents. It would be quality versus quantity with Marciano throwing more and landing less

Power - Holyfield had very good power, maybe a bigger puncher than Marciano had taken - thats up for debate

Movement - Holyfield is the better mover and boxer.

Holyfield wouldn't have it all his all way and Marcianos relentless assaults would get him some rounds. 8-4 Holyfield UD or 9-6 in a 15rounder

Excellent analysis, although I'd give Marciano a good shot at winning the last 3 rounds in a 15 rounder to win. In a 12 rounder, I don't think Holyfield's stamina would be a problem: he tired when big men like Lewis, Foreman and Bowe pushed him around, not when fighting boxers 35 lbs lighter.

[The Kurgan]

I actualy think that the cruiserweight Holyfield would have a better chance against Marciano than the heavyweight version.

The atributes he will really need here are workrate, speed and stamina not strength.

I disagree. To try to outwork Marciano at cruiserweight is a retarded strategy, unless it's being executed by Evil Marciano Clone. Strength is Holyfield's key ally in this fight, along with skill and power.

[janitor]

I disagree. To try to outwork Marciano at cruiserweight is a retarded strategy, unless it's being executed by Evil Marciano Clone. Strength is Holyfield's key ally in this fight, along with skill and power.

I think that his own rather impresive cruiserweight workrate combined with his boxing ability would be his best hope.

If he tries to outmuscle Marciano he is just going to get mashed up. There are not many scenarios where having arms like a penguin is an advantage in boxing but this is asuredly one of them.

[RockyJim]

The Rock by KO........naturally...

[PowerPuncher]

I don't remember these physical advantages helping Holyfield very much for his matchup with teeny, weeny little Bobby Czyz who was 16 years and 6 losses into his pro career, and normally operated as a Light Heavy.

Granted Holyfield won, but how did the fight pan out? What actually happened when they stepped in the ring? The fight stats do not tell the whole story. I remember how surprised everyone was at how awful Holyfield looked against such as small, over the hill, limited opponent who was shot and right at the end of his career.

Your analysis is naive. There is so much more to boxing than one guy being taller and having longer arms than another.

We could just do a tale of the tape and leave it at that. Then noone would ever get hurt.

Greatest boxer of all time? Arnold Schwarzenegger, obviously. I mean, have you seen how big his guns were in 'Pumping Iron.'

1996 Czyz is not even 5% the fighter Marciano was.

The point is Holyfield had a MASSIVE physical advantage and was the better boxer than Marciano.

He put Cryz away in 5 in an off night when Holyfield was recovering from hepititis - what has that got to do with anything? Anyway Cryz hadnt fought at LHW for 7years and weighed 210. We can pick out plenty of nights when Marciano looked poor too.

Who said anything about bodybuilders you condescending twat, obviously an unskilled muscle bound bodybuilder gets taken apart easily. But a bigger stronger more skilled boxer beats a smaller weaker less skilled boxer

[Luigi1985]

Always when Holyfield didn´t look impressive, he was ill, strange...



but I know, always finding excusses...

[PowerPuncher]

Excellent analysis, although I'd give Marciano a good shot at winning the last 3 rounds in a 15 rounder to win. In a 12 rounder, I don't think Holyfield's stamina would be a problem: he tired when big men like Lewis, Foreman and Bowe pushed him around, not when fighting boxers 35 lbs lighter.

Yes I think a 15 rounder would play into Marcianos hands with the greater stamina - Holyfield wouldn't die he'd just not quite have the same workrate as Marciano in these rounds. Although his stamina may get sapped

I forgot to mention Holyfields dirty infighting, which will definately come into play because Marciano ALWAYS likes to come inside and Holyfield ALWAYS uses his head to drill the fighter coming in.

This could be the dirtest fight in history - Headbuts, low blows, elbows - The Lot

[PowerPuncher]

Always when Holyfield didn´t look impressive, he was ill, strange...

but I know, always finding excusses...

He won in 5 rounds, he doesn't need an excuse. But he was recovering from Hepititis.

The cryz fight has no bearing on this fight

[Luigi1985]

He won in 5 rounds, he doesn't need an excuse. But he was recovering from Hepititis.

The cryz fight has no bearing on this fight


Against Moorer there exists many good and amused excusses, against Bowe, etc., pretty funny. Btw, what would help Holyfield that he is perhaps pysically a bit stronger than Marciano? Rocky was a much harder puncher, he would maul Holyfield, especially the old version, I can´t take you serious on this...

[PowerPuncher]

Against Moorer there exists many good and amused excusses, against Bowe, etc., pretty funny. Btw, what would help Holyfield that he is perhaps pysically a bit stronger than Marciano? Rocky was a much harder puncher, he would maul Holyfield, especially the old version, I can´t take you serious on this...

Ever thought of finding out what you talk about before posting a thread?

They may be geuine reasons. Against Moorer he was rushed to hospital with heart problems - possibly a heart attack. Are you suggesting he faked a heart attack as an excuse?

You have no evidence Marciano was a harder puncher than Holyfield. Marciano rarely scored 1 punch KOs. Even against Walcott, Walcott was exhausted and on shaky legs before Marciano landed the haymaker Suzie Q. This indicates he was not in fact a 1 punch KO artist and had less power than his fans claim.

[Luigi1985]

Ever thought of finding out what you talk about before posting a thread?

They may be geuine reasons. Against Moorer he was rushed to hospital with heart problems - possibly a heart attack. Are you suggesting he faked a heart attack as an excuse?

You have no evidence Marciano was a harder puncher than Holyfield. Marciano rarely scored 1 punch KOs. Even against Walcott, Walcott was exhausted and on shaky legs before Marciano landed the haymaker Suzie Q. This indicates he was not in fact a 1 punch KO artist and had less power than his fans claim.


Watch tapes before you post about someone you saw perhaps only sometimes on youtube. He scored one-punch- KO´s for example against Layne, Matthews, Walcott, Louis, Buonvino, etc., when did Evander score one-punch-KO´s? Marciano is 100 % the harder puncher...


he became later the "volume puncher", against class, tricky defensive masters like Walcott, Charles, etc., and was right so, because with that tactic he maul them totally down, instead to think about landing the right shot, watch his career before his last 3 or 4 fights, he was a prime example of a one-punch-KO-artist...

[PowerPuncher]

Watch tapes before you post about someone you saw perhaps only sometimes on youtube. He scored one-punch- KO´s for example against Layne, Matthews, Walcott, Louis, Buonvino, etc., when did Evander score one-punch-KO´s? Marciano is 100 % the harder puncher...

he became later the "volume puncher", against class, tricky defensive masters like Walcott, Charles, etc., and was right so, because with that tactic he maul them totally down, instead to think about landing the right shot, watch his career before his last 3 or 4 fights, he was a prime example of a one-punch-KO-artist...

I've seen allot of these fights and all the fighters took a sustained beating taking allot of Marciano punches before Marciano landed his KO punch.

Sure he had power - but Lennox and Tyson had more and needed less shots to get the job done. Holyfield ate their shots he'd eat Marcianos and go the distance whether he wins or losses. I say he wins.

[Mega Lamps]

Marciano wins it.
Holyfield would not be able to outbox Marciano for long and would be drawn into a slugfest, which would become more and more difficult for him. Holyfield would eventually fall and either be stopped or lose by Unanimous Decision.
Even if by some strange turnaround he is not drawn into a slugfest and tries to box Marciano, he would lose by decision most likely. More skilled tacticians than Holyfield who were also stylistic nightmares for Rocky, were beaten by Marciano.

[janitor]

Strength/Size - 217lbs of ripped muscle versus 180lbs of ripped muscle - Holyfield can back Marciano up, push him back in clinches


Joe Louis was as big as Holyfield and Marciano shoved him round like a rag doll.

This is one area where Marcianos short stature works for him. He can lean into his oponents and get his centre of mass down low in a clinch.

[PowerPuncher]

Joe Louis was as big as Holyfield and Marciano shoved him round like a rag doll.

This is one area where Marcianos short stature works for him. He can lean into his oponents and get his centre of mass down low in a clinch.

Louis wasn't as strong as Holyfield though. Holyfield is thicker, denser, stronger. Louis was never a man to bull wrestle his opponent around where as Holyfield loved to tussle in that way

Again I don't want to downplay Marciano but I think this is a close fight with the edge to Holyfield.

[mr. magoo]

Joe Louis was as big as Holyfield and Marciano shoved him round like a rag doll.

This is one area where Marcianos short stature works for him. He can lean into his oponents and get his centre of mass down low in a clinch.

I think that you may be overlooking the fact that Louis didn't fair well against fighters who crowded or swarmed, wheras Holyfield tended to eat them right up.

[janitor]

Louis wasn't as strong as Holyfield though. Holyfield is thicker, denser, stronger. Louis was never a man to bull wrestle his opponent around where as Holyfield loved to tussle in that way


Louis was strong enough to handel Primo Carnera in the clinches.

I would not necisarily asume that Holyfield will manhandle Marciano.

[NickHudson]

Calling me a condescending twat does not change the fact that Holyfield had an even more massive physical 'advantage' over Czyz than he would over the Rock. I am merely observing that it didn't seem to count for very much on the night.

You believe that Holyfield kept stepping into the ring and putting his career on the line by fighting with debilitating illnesses. I am skeptical of this.

If he had enough money and cunningness to pay a lawyer to defend him from the BALCO drugs scandal, then I believe he had enough money and cunningness to get a decent doctor to monitor his health and perform the appropriate liver function tests before stepping in the ring.

The question remains, how much was his poor performance against Czyz a product of illness, and how much due to fighting a smaller, quicker, more elusive target than he was used to?

PS I am not trying to piss you (or anyone else) off, but I think you consistently overstate the importance of increased size, and overlook how scaling laws detract from athletic performance once you get very big.

When I mentioned this the other day you described it as bollocks. This maybe your opinion, but it is wrong. Scaling laws are a fact of life, every bit as uncontraversial as gravity and Newtons laws of motion.

I brought this up in the other thread where you were talking about height being an advantage for sprinters. I can tell you right now that there are no 6 2 or 6 3, let alone 6 5 guys who have run remotely close to Michael Johnson's 200m record of 19.32. Johnson himself was a shade under 6 foot.

Peace.

The point is Holyfield had a MASSIVE physical advantage and was the better boxer than Marciano.

He put Cryz away in 5 in an off night when Holyfield was recovering from hepititis - what has that got to do with anything? Anyway Cryz hadnt fought at LHW for 7years and weighed 210. We can pick out plenty of nights when Marciano looked poor too.

Who said anything about bodybuilders you condescending twat, obviously an unskilled muscle bound bodybuilder gets taken apart easily. But a bigger stronger more skilled boxer beats a smaller weaker less skilled boxer

[Bummy Davis]

How about a prime Marciano vs a black little person with no arms.Even that is too much of a challenge for Marciano.


Marciano was not Biased he KO'd Blacks as well as Whites, 43 of them (Black & White People) in 49 fights :smoke :hi:

[PowerPuncher]

Calling me a condescending twat does not change the fact that Holyfield had an even more massive physical 'advantage' over Czyz than he would over the Rock. I am merely observing that it didn't seem to count for very much on the night.

You believe that Holyfield kept stepping into the ring and putting his career on the line by fighting with debilitating illnesses. I am skeptical of this.

If he had enough money and cunningness to pay a lawyer to defend him from the BALCO drugs scandal, then I believe he had enough money and cunningness to get a decent doctor to monitor his health and perform the appropriate liver function tests before stepping in the ring.

The question remains, how much was his poor performance against Czyz a product of illness, and how much due to fighting a smaller, quicker, more elusive target than he was used to?

PS I am not trying to piss you (or anyone else) off, but I think you consistently overstate the importance of increased size, and overlook how scaling laws detract from athletic performance once you get very big.

When I mentioned this the other day you described it as bollocks. This maybe your opinion, but it is wrong. Scaling laws are a fact of life, every bit as uncontraversial as gravity and Newtons laws of motion.

I brought this up in the other thread where you were talking about height being an advantage for sprinters. I can tell you right now that there are no 6 2 or 6 3, let alone 6 5 guys who have run remotely close to Michael Johnson's 200m record of 19.32. Johnson himself was a shade under 6 foot.

Peace.

Points taken - I'm not sure how much Holyfield was still affected by the Hepertitis. But maybe Holyfield also needs a big challenge to up his game?

Isn't Tyson a better analogy than Cryz. Practically the same height, reach, style. Holyfield matched up well against Tyson, why not Marciano? Yes Marciano had a higher workrate but Tyson was faster. Few would argue Marciano is punching harder than Tyson. Tyson is technically better than Marciano with a better defense.

I was actually shocked that Owens was only 5'10 because he looked so much bigger than the competition, I think he Owens with modern training and nutrition would be top3 today but in his 1936 incarnation he wouldn't be because technology has moved on.

[RoccoMarciano]

I actualy think that the cruiserweight Holyfield would have a better chance against Marciano than the heavyweight version.

The atributes he will really need here are workrate, speed and stamina not strength.

I agree with you, but Evander would still lose.

[Marciano Frazier]

I think that you may be overlooking the fact that Louis didn't fair well against fighters who crowded or swarmed, wheras Holyfield tended to eat them right up. "Eat them right up"? As I recall, a prime Holyfield went to war and was decked and in trouble against Bert Cooper, who was a small, one-dimensional swarmer a couple of light years behind Marciano in ability.

[Bummy Davis]

"Eat them right up"? As I recall, a prime Holyfield went to war and was decked and in trouble against Bert Cooper, who was a small, one-dimensional swarmer a couple of light years behind Marciano in ability.


Holy was lucky to get out of that one vs Cooper, and then the body shots from 5"9 Toney did him in, Toney was not near Marciano in power and body shots or punchrate

[C. M. Clay II]

Louis was strong enough to handel Primo Carnera in the clinches.

Tell that to Luigi. He still thinks I made that up.:-(

[mr. magoo]

Holy was lucky to get out of that one vs Cooper, and then the body shots from 5"9 Toney did him in, Toney was not near Marciano in power and body shots or punchrate


I don't suppose it means anything to you that Holyfield was 40 years old when he fought James Toney, yet Marciano was 32 when he was decked by a 38 year old former lightheavyweight.

I agree with you that Toney had no where near Marciano's punching ability, and nor do I hold Rocky's performance against Archie Moore against him, but your comparisons suck.

[mr. magoo]

"Eat them right up"? As I recall, a prime Holyfield went to war and was decked and in trouble against Bert Cooper, who was a small, one-dimensional swarmer a couple of light years behind Marciano in ability.

Bert Copper was not a small fighter. He was 215 Lbs ( 5 Lbs heavier than Holyfield and 30 Lbs heavier than Marciano), and in very good shape for that fight. Holyfield took that fight on very short notice after both Tyson's rape charge was filed, and Francesco Damiani was injured in training. He struggled with Cooper in the 3rd round but basically kicked his ass the rest of the time.

[Marciano Frazier]

Bert Copper was not a small fighter. He was 215 Lbs ( 5 Lbs heavier than Holyfield and 30 Lbs heavier than Marciano), and in very good shape for that fight. Holyfield took that fight on very short notice after both Tyson's rape charge was filed, and Francesco Damiani was injured in training. He struggled with Cooper in the 3rd round but basically kicked his ass the rest of the time.
Cooper was 5'11 1/2" and weighed around 190 well into his 20s. If he wasn't a small heavyweight, neither was Marciano.

[mr. magoo]

Cooper was 5'11 1/2" and weighed around 190 well into his 20s. If he wasn't a small heavyweight, neither was Marciano.

That isn't the way you stated it. You flat out said that Cooper was a small heavyweight, when in fact he was actually heavier than Holyfield who incidentally also began his career beneath the 190 pound mark. And who ever said anything about Marciano being small, even though Cooper did in fact out weigh him by a heafty 30 Lbs in his prime.

[RoccoMarciano]

Tell that to Luigi. He still thinks I made that up.:-(
You're making that up... :lol:

I love Magoo's avatar :)

[cross_trainer]

Points taken - I'm not sure how much Holyfield was still affected by the Hepertitis. But maybe Holyfield also needs a big challenge to up his game?

Isn't Tyson a better analogy than Cryz. Practically the same height, reach, style. Holyfield matched up well against Tyson, why not Marciano? Yes Marciano had a higher workrate but Tyson was faster. Few would argue Marciano is punching harder than Tyson. Tyson is technically better than Marciano with a better defense.



Overall, Tyson was a superior fighter to the Rock (whom I do not rate in my top 10 head-to-head). Perhaps even the '96 version was better than Marciano. But he did not have the style to do well against Holyfield. He was extremely inactive in the clinches, didn't have much of an inside game, didn't work the body consistently in '96, and didn't have the swarming workrate that he needed to overwhelm Holyfield's defeses--rather, he tried to time a single big punch, which was something that would never beat Holyfield. He was also not dirty enough (at least, not in ways that would allow him to beat Holyfield in a clinch-fest...ear biting is NOT smart fouling :D ).

[Marciano Frazier]

That isn't the way you stated it. You flat out said that Cooper was a small heavyweight, when in fact he was actually heavier than Holyfield who incidentally also began his career beneath the 190 pound mark. And who ever said anything about Marciano being small, even though Cooper did in fact out weigh him by a heafty 30 Lbs in his prime. Obviously I meant small for a heavyweight. When posters say Bob Fitzsimmons was small, I don't say, "Nuh-uh! His height and weight were above average!" I know what they mean.
Again, Cooper outweighed Marciano at the time he fought Holyfield, but he was naturally the same size as Rocky.