Prime Duran vs Prime Ray Robinson.

[Nel has heart]

:think

[Son of Gaul]

:think

Don't get me wrong, Duran would any fighter in HISTORY problems at LW. This fight however would have to take place at 147, 154, or 160 in which case SRR wins a close decision.

[ChrisPontius]

I like SRR by knockout. Duran is not going to stick and move or fight to survive, and Robinson is an extremely hard hitter who was even able to stop durable middleweights. I don't think it will be as one-sided as Duran vs Hearns, but i do think Robinson finds the stoppage before the 12th or wins a convincing decision including a knockdown. Too big, too talented.

[burt bienstock]

Ray Robinson at any weight,135 and up would beat any version of Roberto Duran.In his prime Robinson had to fight the best of a vast pool of great contenders,and because he was 5ft,11inches would give Robinson an advantage over the great Robert that Duran could'nt surmount...At 21 years old and 135-138 lbs he was thrown in with a Sammy 'THE CLUTCH"Angott,and won over Angott, who I believe because of his difficult style would have given Duran a tussle...Robinson,by far the best fighter I saw,followed by Pep,Ike Williams,Duran ,among the smaller guys...

[burt bienstock]

One more point...One of my best fantasy match,would be Roberto Duran against a YOUNG BEAU JACK, who I saw many times in his prime..Beau Jack would match Duran in strengh and volume of punches Duran never faced before,and Beau Jack never quit,EVER..DREAM MATCH, YESSIR...

[Nel has heart]

Yep, I agree. Robinson too good for anyone. Also had a granite, rock solid chin. I think the only time he got stopped was through heat exhaustion.

[itrymariti]

Let's not forget that Ray Leonard could hardly lay a glove on Duran in Montreal. Most of his work consisted of flurries from the inside, which isn't exactly home run territory for Robinson (or anybody for that matter). Hearns isn't that relevant, since he has the height and reach that SRR quite simply doesn't, and was much harder for a much worse version of Duran to get inside on. Something to think about.

[itrymariti]

Ray Robinson at any weight,135 and up would beat any version of Roberto Duran.In his prime Robinson had to fight the best of a vast pool of great contenders,and because he was 5ft,11inches would give Robinson an advantage over the great Robert that Duran could'nt surmount.

Yeah, because Duran could never beat anyone taller than him...

Robinson is only an inch taller than SRL and actually has shorter arms.

[Stonehands89]

Burt, great reads as usual. You are already established in my book as an invaluable resource on ESB Classic.

Montreal Duran would pose problems for even the best WW Robinson. Robinson is simply unlikely to stop that version.

Let me interrupt this post for a pontification: Sometimes it seems that the formidable Chris Pontius and many other Duran-doubters confuse what others see as the inconsistency of Duran with "excuses." Duran looked quite bummish, quite often after June 1980, but when he was on, he was among the best fighting machines in history.

His detractors don't seem to be willing to recognize that. They do queer math and average out the version that beat Leonard with the version that quit. They average out the version that was very competetive against Hagler with the version that came in soft against Hearns... and fail to realize what Duran was capable of. It's a shame really.

Duran's inconsistency occurred
after he had over 70 fights
after he was looking at his prime in the rear-view mirror, and
after he was regularly and inevitably looking up at his opponents.

But his unwillingness to train properly and find motivation cost him dearly in terms of legacy. That's just a damn fact.

Anyway, Duran would lose to Robinson, but not by much. I think that he would be the boss inside, just like he was against Leonard, I'd argue that he had more defensive skill, and would be more elusive to get inside. Leonard could punch, but Duran accepted it in Montreal and it did not disrupt his raging, ultimate objective -to beat hell out of Leonard. But Robinson's power would disrupt Duran. Duran respected power and Robinson's power would be quick enough to land on Duran's elusive whiskers... and it would be forceful enough to give even a raging Duran pause.

[Pachilles]

Robinson KO before the 6th round

[PowerPuncher]

Let's not forget that Ray Leonard could hardly lay a glove on Duran in Montreal. Most of his work consisted of flurries from the inside, which isn't exactly home run territory for Robinson (or anybody for that matter). Hearns isn't that relevant, since he has the height and reach that SRR quite simply doesn't, and was much harder for a much worse version of Duran to get inside on. Something to think about.

Even if Duran manages to get Robinson into a dogfight, robinson is far better than Leonard on the inside/mid range and a better fighter

[dpw417]

Duran took Leonard to school the first time around fighting on the inside. Leonard (and Dundee) found out and planned differently in the rematch. I suscribed to Stonehands' analogy that Leonard and Dundee planned to fight the Montreal fight exctly how it happened. Dundee always said prior that if you went backward with Duran, that's how he gained momentum. What alot of people don't take into consideration with Ray Robinson is how rough he was on the inside compared to a Leonard. Watch the fight with LaMotta, Ray will often use the top of his head to deter LaMotta from charging in. Standing at 5'11" he will get under the shorter LaMotta and drive his shoulder either into Jake's body or face. Hopkins is considered slick at this stuff...Robinson ain't no slouch either...watch it. Duran would find Robinson rough on the outside and the inside. Much more experienced than a Ray Leonard at fighting that way. School would not be in session for Robinson, he has seen it, and done it.

[dpw417]

Even if Duran manages to get Robinson into a dogfight, robinson is far better than Leonard on the inside/mid range and a better fighter
Beat me to it.

[Bummy Davis]

I like SRR by knockout. Duran is not going to stick and move or fight to survive, and Robinson is an extremely hard hitter who was even able to stop durable middleweights. I don't think it will be as one-sided as Duran vs Hearns, but i do think Robinson finds the stoppage before the 12th or wins a convincing decision including a knockdown. Too big, too talented.


I see it this way

[itrymariti]

Even if Duran manages to get Robinson into a dogfight, robinson is far better than Leonard on the inside/mid range and a better fighter

Well, obviously, Sugar Ray Robinson could hold his own inside, but posters claiming that he'd just walk in there and blow Duran away are clearly ignoring how elusive Duran was. Like I say, he was incredibly hard to hit from the outside and would most likely be able to take large portions of the fight up close where it becomes a home fixture.

[john garfield]

I never get inveigled in these things, but SRR vs. Duran got my attention.

Lemme toss something in that isn't mentioned so far: Robinson's combos weren't shoe shines, like Leonard's.

Color your opinion?

[laxpdx]

If it's at 147, it would be one for the ages. Duran would give a good account of himself, but would not win. In fact, I see him getting hurt a couple of times in the process, before ultimately losing by 14th or 15th round TKO. Robinson has the firepower to do this.

If it's at 154/160, then Robbo stops him mid-late rounds. The more Duran weighs, the more he loses.

[Boxed Ears]

Duran gives him an excellent fight. I'd favor Robinson but not write off Duran. I don't see a stoppage but you can't rule out anything in this match-up.

Robinson KO before the 6th round

:lol: Oh, you.

[he grant]

At 147 Robinson by close decision .... a very competitive fight ...

[Pachilles]

Duran gives him an excellent fight. I'd favor Robinson but not write off Duran. I don't see a stoppage but you can't rule out anything in this match-up.



:lol: Oh, you.

Whats so ridiculous about Sugar Ray Robinson knocking out Duran in 6 rounds?????????? seriously? Duran does not give him an excellent fight, he lost against every single ATG he fought, and Robinson is the no.1 greatest. As well as being built naturally larger with tremendous KO power.

Once more, Duran, the most overrated boxer of all time and a quitter.

[Boxed Ears]

Whats so ridiculous about Sugar Ray Robinson knocking out Duran in 6 rounds?????????? seriously? Duran does not give him an excellent fight, he lost against every single ATG he fought, and Robinson is the no.1 greatest. As well as being built naturally larger with tremendous KO power.

Once more, Duran, the most overrated boxer of all time and a quitter.

:lol: I knew you'd jump on that.

[Bokaj]

Let's not forget that Ray Leonard could hardly lay a glove on Duran in Montreal. Most of his work consisted of flurries from the inside, which isn't exactly home run territory for Robinson (or anybody for that matter). Hearns isn't that relevant, since he has the height and reach that SRR quite simply doesn't, and was much harder for a much worse version of Duran to get inside on. Something to think about.

:lol:

[Bokaj]

Lemme toss something in that isn't mentioned so far: Robinson's combos weren't shoe shines, like Leonard's.

WW Leonard's combos weren't shoeshines. That's all wrong.

[Bokaj]

Burt, great reads as usual. You are already established in my book as an invaluable resource on ESB Classic.

Montreal Duran would pose problems for even the best WW Robinson. Robinson is simply unlikely to stop that version.

Let me interrupt this post for a pontification: Sometimes it seems that the formidable Chris Pontius and many other Duran-doubters confuse what others see as the inconsistency of Duran with "excuses." Duran looked quite bummish, quite often after June 1980, but when he was on, he was among the best fighting machines in history.

His detractors don't seem to be willing to recognize that. They do queer math and average out the version that beat Leonard with the version that quit. They average out the version that was very competetive against Hagler with the version that came in soft against Hearns... and fail to realize what Duran was capable of. It's a shame really.

Duran's inconsistency occurred
after he had over 70 fights
after he was looking at his prime in the rear-view mirror, and
after he was regularly and inevitably looking up at his opponents.

But his unwillingness to train properly and find motivation cost him dearly in terms of legacy. That's just a damn fact.

I think Chis would agree with me in saying that Duran's greatness isn't open for debate. He's firmly top 10 p4p, and top 5 is very reasonable.

But it's hard to know what to take from some of his losses. He looked ineffectual gainst Benitez and when Leonard played it elusive. This can't be discarded by age since he wasn't that old, and I don't believe his shape was terrible either.

This do really pose the question how he would fare against the great movers and boxers, and Robinson was truly one of those. Plus the guy had an offense that was out of this world. A stoppage is certainly not impossible. Otherwise a clear UD.

[dublynflya]

I like SRR by knockout. Duran is not going to stick and move or fight to survive, and Robinson is an extremely hard hitter who was even able to stop durable middleweights. I don't think it will be as one-sided as Duran vs Hearns, but i do think Robinson finds the stoppage before the 12th or wins a convincing decision including a knockdown. Too big, too talented.

This is how I see it Chris!

[Pachilles]

I think Chis would agree with me in saying that Duran's greatness isn't open for debate. He's firmly top 10 p4p, and top 5 is very reasonable.

But it's hard to know what to take from some of his losses. He looked ineffectual gainst Benitez and when Leonard played it elusive. This can't be discarded by age since he wasn't that old, and I don't believe his shape was terrible either.

This do really pose the question how he would fare against the great movers and boxers, and Robinson was truly one of those. Plus the guy had an offense that was out of this world. A stoppage is certainly not impossible. Otherwise a clear UD.

Considering the fact that defeating ATG opponents are defining factors in greatness, it is definatley up for debate. Which ATG's did he fight? Leonard/Hearns/Hagler/Benitez. His record? 1-5. The fact that he is an ATG is not up for debate. But a top 10 lock is definatley up for debate.

[PetethePrince]

I like SRR by knockout. Duran is not going to stick and move or fight to survive, and Robinson is an extremely hard hitter who was even able to stop durable middleweights. I don't think it will be as one-sided as Duran vs Hearns, but i do think Robinson finds the stoppage before the 12th or wins a convincing decision including a knockdown. Too big, too talented.


This

Or at least a comfortable decision.

[lora]

Considering the fact that defeating ATG opponents are defining factors in greatness, it is definatley up for debate. Which ATG's did he fight? Leonard/Hearns/Hagler/Benitez. His record? 1-5. The fact that he is an ATG is not up for debate. But a top 10 lock is definatley up for debate.

of course it's up for debate, but necessarily for the reasons a vulgar simpleton like yourself might think.

[dpw417]

I never get inveigled in these things, but SRR vs. Duran got my attention.

Lemme toss something in that isn't mentioned so far: Robinson's combos weren't shoe shines, like Leonard's.

Color your opinion?
Vividly JG.
Lemme git my sunglasses.
Not to keep waxing about it... but did you ever remember others who were able to put so much leverage on their shots and remain fast?
It's scary good. Roy Jones comes to mind on this end, there was a time when he did not have to set at all, and delivered with power.

[john garfield]

WW Leonard's combos weren't shoeshines. That's all wrong.

WRONG? ME? B

Gonna demand a PEDs test before you're allowed to post next time.

[john garfield]

Vividly JG.
Lemme git my sunglasses.
Not to keep waxing about it... but did you ever remember others who were able to put so much leverage on their shots and remain fast?
It's scary good. Roy Jones comes to mind on this end, there was a time when he did not have to set at all, and delivered with power.

Maybe Ike Williams, d

[itrymariti]

:lol:

It's not something to laugh at. Leonard was simply not landing consistently from the outside. Most of his work came from the inside because that's where Duran had taken the fight. Ok, Robinson was probably a better fighter at 147, but it's not like there's an enormous gulf in class between the two; and it's reasonable to think that Duran would be able to do something similar to Robinson.

[Bokaj]

[/b]

WRONG? ME? B

Gonna demand a PEDs test before you're allowed to post next time.

:D:good My man.

[teeto]

Massive Duran fan here. Imo Robinson wins, i always stick by it, i'm going for Robinson inside the distance late. I know there's no evidence to say such would occur, as that kind of stoppage never did get inflicted on Duran, but that's how i see it.

Duran beats everyone else, haha.

[itrymariti]

I'm going to put my balls on the table and go with Duran by close decision. Robinson's movement and tools from a distance would give Duran trouble, but prime Duran's head movement was, franky, ridiculous, and I think his uncanny sense of range and clever feinting would keep him afloat long enough for him to get inside and gradually mug Robinson over the distance. Certainly don't see a stoppage, as both guys have rocks for jaws; nor is either going to be there to be hit. Could easily go the other way for obvious reasons, but no-one's taking this without a fight.

[Boxed Ears]

I'm going to put my balls on the table and go with Duran by close decision. Robinson's movement and tools from a distance would give Duran trouble, but prime Duran's head movement was, franky, ridiculous, and I think his uncanny sense of range and clever feinting would keep him afloat long enough for him to get inside and gradually mug Robinson over the distance. Certainly don't see a stoppage, as both guys have rocks for jaws; nor is either going to be there to be hit. Could easily go the other way for obvious reasons, but no-one's taking this without a fight.

I don't see why it would be so outlandish to say Duran could take it. I mean, if Carmen can split decision Ray, albeit at middleweight, it's not like it's laughable.

[itrymariti]

I don't see why it would be so outlandish to say Duran could take it. I mean, if Carmen can split decision Ray, albeit at middleweight, it's not like it's laughable.

You'd have thought so, but there seems to be not insignificant consensus on the idea of Robinson blowing out Duran in 6! Admittedly, though, Ray was far past his prime when Carmen did him over and (from what I've seen) was something of a different animal at 147.

I think that the Duran fans might feel deep down that their boy would take this one, but don't want to admit it for fear of getting the old "nuthugger" treatment...

[ripcity]

Robinson is the better boxer he is bigger faster and stronger. Robinson clearly wins.

[Boxed Ears]

You'd have thought so, but there seems to be not insignificant consensus on the idea of Robinson blowing out Duran in 6! Admittedly, though, Ray was far past his prime when Carmen did him over and (from what I've seen) was something of a different animal at 147.

I think that the Duran fans might feel deep down that their boy would take this one, but don't want to admit it for fear of getting the old "nuthugger" treatment...

Good points.

[teeto]

Prime Ray Robinson, sorry not for me.

[Pachilles]

of course it's up for debate, but necessarily for the reasons a vulgar simpleton like yourself might think.

I didn't post up reasons, i posted up facts. Something that Duran fans refuse to face.

[PowerPuncher]

I don't see why it would be so outlandish to say Duran could take it. I mean, if Carmen can split decision Ray, albeit at middleweight, it's not like it's laughable.

Robinson was 37-38 then, by that stage Duran was 5years removed from being Kirkland Laings lil bitch :yep

[PowerPuncher]

I think that the Duran fans might feel deep down that their boy would take this one, but don't want to admit it for fear of getting the old "nuthugger" treatment...

LMAO at Duran fans worried about being considered nutthuggers :rofl:rofl:rofl Lets not forget all the excuses for his losses

[stevebhoy87]

Duran is the fighter i give the best chance of beating Ray at 147, for me a highly technical inside fighter, espicially one with the skill and defence of roberto has the best chance of getting to SRR.

While i wouldn't be at all suprised to see roberto to pull this one out i have to favour Robinson, for me he was more effective of the back foot than leonard, he could get more leverage from his punches and i think his footwork was slightly more impressive. I dont see Duran getting inside with Robinson as often as he did in montreal and when he does he will be taking more fire to get there. Robinson is a massive puncher, accurate and fast.

I see Duran taking too much punishment whilst coming forward early (though certainly giving ray hell whilst doing so) but after a close 1st 10 robinson either having a late TKO or him beginning to slow down and robinson pulling away for a tight UD or SD

[Pachilles]

I love how even though the title of the thread clearly says Prime Vs Prime Duran fans choose not to answer that question and instead change it to Prime Duran Vs Basilio version of Robinson. Unable to even acknowledge a question in which Duran is not favoured.

And then even the not so delusional fans that can see sense feel obliged to add on the end, "love Duran though LOL"...."Beat everyone else though LOL"..."rather be penetrated by Duran though" in fear of losing the favour and classic credibility

[Stonehands89]

I think Chis would agree with me in saying that Duran's greatness isn't open for debate. He's firmly top 10 p4p, and top 5 is very reasonable.

But it's hard to know what to take from some of his losses. He looked ineffectual gainst Benitez and when Leonard played it elusive. This can't be discarded by age since he wasn't that old, and I don't believe his shape was terrible either.

This do really pose the question how he would fare against the great movers and boxers, and Robinson was truly one of those. Plus the guy had an offense that was out of this world. A stoppage is certainly not impossible. Otherwise a clear UD.
I doubt that Chris would place Duran in the top 5. If you would, then you are neither a doubter nor a detractor.

Duran's losses have no excuse. None of them. There are reasons that can account for the differences in performance though, and they make perfect sense. Some deny the reasons as excuses per se, others prop-up ready excuses. I think that both camps are wrong.

Montreal Duran's being stopped is unlikely, but not impossible -sure.

[Stonehands89]

Maybe Ike Williams, d
Great call, JG.

[Bokaj]

I doubt that Chris would place Duran in the top 5. If you would, then you are neither a doubter nor a detractor.

Duran's losses have no excuse. None of them. There are reasons that can account for the differences in performance though, and they make perfect sense. Some deny the reasons as excuses per se, others prop-up ready excuses. I think that both camps are wrong.

Montreal Duran's being stopped is unlikely, but not impossible -sure.

This is about how I see it. Depends on how frustrated Duran would get in the later stages. Robinson sure could frustrate a man with his jab and movement, and if Duran reacted anything close to like he did in the rematch against Leonard, Robinson would make him pay.

Sure a fight I'd want to see. Have to watch the Montreal fight again, to get a feel for how well Duran could close with Robinson.

Out of curiousity how would you rank Duran and Robinson on a technical level to Hopkins? For my money, Hopkins may just have both of them beat in this aspect.

[Stonehands89]

This is about how I see it. Depends on how frustrated Duran would get in the later stages. Robinson sure could frustrate a man with his jab and movement, and if Duran reacted anything close to like he did in the rematch against Leonard, Robinson would make him pay.

Sure a fight I'd want to see. Have to watch the Montreal fight again, to get a feel for how well Duran could close with Robinson.

Out of curiousity how would you rank Duran and Robinson on a technical level to Hopkins? For my money, Hopkins may just have both of them beat in this aspect.
Watch Montreal again. You will not only see how skillfully & effectively Duran can close the distance, you will also see that Hopkins' level isn't quite at Duran's. If that doesn't convince you then try on Duran-Barkley again.

Hopkins may be a bit more technically sound than Robinson but it is tough to tell. Is he more technically sound or more technically particular about being sound? Robinson banged hard and sometimes would often be less particular about being a technician and more particular about going home early. Robinson was considerably better than Hopkins offensively at two out of three ranges. His defense is tougher to gauge for the reasons stated.

[john garfield]

This is about how I see it. Depends on how frustrated Duran would get in the later stages. Robinson sure could frustrate a man with his jab and movement, and if Duran reacted anything close to like he did in the rematch against Leonard, Robinson would make him pay.

Sure a fight I'd want to see. Have to watch the Montreal fight again, to get a feel for how well Duran could close with Robinson.

Out of curiousity how would you rank Duran and Robinson on a technical level to Hopkins? For my money, Hopkins may just have both of them beat in this aspect.

B-Hop, at his best, B, has always been a cunning 'n precise opportunist. SRR, under the sheen, was 100% HIT MAN.

[Bokaj]

B-Hop, at his best, B, has always been a cunning 'n precise opportunist. SRR, under the sheen, was 100% HIT MAN.

That's true. And that's what I love about Robinson. He may look like a cutie, but the guy was a natural warrior that just waited for the moment to pounce.

Don't know if I've ever seen someone perform every aspect of the big book of boxing to such perfection as Hopkins, though. He's not as inventive as for example Ali (who is? ;)), but what he does he performs to perfection.

[Bokaj]

Watch Montreal again. You will not only see how skillfully & effectively Duran can close the distance, you will also see that Hopkins' level isn't quite at Duran's. If that doesn't convince you then try on Duran-Barkley again.

Offensively, and countering, I'm satisfied that Duran was at least every bit as good as Hopkins. But I haven't seen Duran execute economical lateral movement like Hopkins did against for example Pavlik. Hell, not sure even Robinson ranks with him in that regard.

Hopkins may be a bit more technically sound than Robinson but it is tough to tell. Is he more technically sound or more technically particular about being sound? Robinson banged hard and sometimes would often be less particular about being a technician and more particular about going home early. Robinson was considerably better than Hopkins offensively at two out of three ranges. His defense is tougher to gauge for the reasons stated.

Good point. There's not many sweeter sights than when Robinson gets the scent of blood in them nostrils. Like against Graziano. He gets careless enough to be floored by a right, but that's no matter...

[Bill Butcher]

If Robinson didnt TKO/KO him, he`d win a clear decision, too big & a better fighter regardless of weight.

[Bill Butcher]

Let's not forget that Ray Leonard could hardly lay a glove on Duran in Montreal.

Seriously, this is getting beyond a joke now, just what fight were you watching ?

[MrMagic]

I absolutely love a classic boxer like Ike Williams, pivoting with his left hook and getting full leverage, his right hand was like a slingshot.

I think Duran - Williams would be a great fight, but the longer the fight goes on, the rougher Duran gets.. I think Duran wears Williams down to a decision or a late stoppage.

Duran - SRR is an intriguing matchup aswell, I definitely would give Duran a great shot at taking it down.

[MrMagic]

Adding a note, Duran is possibly the most natural fierce boxer I have ever studied. His head movement, his short hooks, even when getting wild he's automatically moving his head beautifully.

Duran could slug, he could box, he could jab.. he had a strong chin, he was not afraid of duking it out.

[itrymariti]

Seriously, this is getting beyond a joke now, just what fight were you watching ?

I have my scorecard.

[natonic]

Robinson by decision. Fairly close. I think it's possible that Duran pays a heavier price on the way in than he did in Montreal and therefore slows down his charge a bit.

As for this Duran debate. I rate him top 10 ATG. Top 5 is maybe a slight stretch for me. What he did up until Montreal is plenty. After that, Duran backers pick and choose performances and make excuses for the rest. Duran detractors have plenty to detract from after Montreal. But up to that point he was clearly one of the best ever. Robinson is just a 1/4 of a notch better IMO.

[burt bienstock]

I agree with you J.G.' that the Ike Williams,who I watched Ko Beau Jack,in Philly in 1948,could hit with tremendous authority,in flurries,without sacrificing punching power...Ike could bring it on...

[Jorodz]

I agree with you J.G.' that the Ike Williams,who I watched Ko Beau Jack,in Philly in 1948,could hit with tremendous authority,in flurries,without sacrificing punching power...Ike could bring it on...

good call:good not that my opinion means much but i rate williams as the second best lightweight of all time and a top 30 all time, maybe higher. watching he and beau jack is magic (and you did it in fucking person!)

[burt bienstock]

JorodzYessir watching Williams ko Beau Jack In Philly,1948 was a thrill,but it was a precursor to a more memorable event,a few hours after the bout...My friend and I ,two young kids then caught a bus from Philly,about 3am,to see the famous Atlantic City...We arrived early in the morning,sleepless of course,and decided to see the famous Atlantic City Boardwalk, before getting a room at a boarding house,,,Standing on the empty boardwalk near the famous Steel Pier, a Police car drove up to us and to gendarmes got out with guns drawn, and threw us in the back seat..They took us to the station house,searched us, grilled us then took us by car to the house of an eldrly couple who had been accosted and robbed of their money shortly before...Lucky for us .they were Canadiens and robbed if their Canadian money ,and we were released, and told to skedaddle home...Ehhausted, we followed suit.and took the next bus back to NY...Last time I saw Ike Williams ringside fight...

[john garfield]

JorodzYessir watching Williams ko Beau Jack In Philly,1948 was a thrill,but it was a precursor to a more memorable event,a few hours after the bout...My friend and I ,two young kids then caught a bus from Philly,about 3am,to see the famous Atlantic City...We arrived early in the morning,sleepless of course,and decided to see the famous Atlantic City Boardwalk, before getting a room at a boarding house,,,Standing on the empty boardwalk near the famous Steel Pier, a Police car drove up to us and to gendarmes got out with guns drawn, and threw us in the back seat..They took us to the station house,searched us, grilled us then took us by car to the house of an eldrly couple who had been accosted and robbed of their money shortly before...Lucky for us .they were Canadiens and robbed if their Canadian money ,and we were released, and told to skedaddle home...Ehhausted, we followed suit.and took the next bus back to NY...Last time I saw Ike Williams ringside fight...

Love these colorful tidbits, BB. Brings life to history.

[arther1045]

A close fight. Could go either way. Duran in Montreal was different then just about every fighter who ever fought, and It might make up for the difference in size. Duran trained ror that fight like he never trained before, and he had the win or die thing going on. Bringing up fights like Benitez or Leaonard 2 in this debate is a waste of time. Totally different animal here. This Duran was far and away the best fighter Robinson ever got in the ring with.

[leverage]

Let's not forget that Ray Leonard could hardly lay a glove on Duran in Montreal. Most of his work consisted of flurries from the inside, which isn't exactly home run territory for Robinson (or anybody for that matter). Hearns isn't that relevant, since he has the height and reach that SRR quite simply doesn't, and was much harder for a much worse version of Duran to get inside on. Something to think about.
Good point. People fail to realize that one of the things that made duran so great was his highly overlooked defensive skills. He was actually one of the best defensive fighters in history but people mostly credit him for his ferocity and punching power, as well has a great chin.

Duran was not just great but a top tier great, and anyone that feels that robinson would just blow him away is either not giving duran his just due or is underestimating him. Also take into consideration that duran was no doubt better than many of the fighters that robby faced.

Yes, I'd pick the sugarman to win comfortably, but not by ko.

[Duodenum]

Randy Shields was emphatic in proclaiming that SRL telegraphed his punches, and he, Benitez, and Duran in Montreal, all did indeed make him miss a great deal. (For his part, Leonard repeatedly described how Shields was proficient at creating an "illusion" of hitability during Randy's challenge of Hearns.) I haven't encountered such a similar claim by Robby's opponents.

In the videotape of Robinson-Dykes, we can hear Robby's shots thudding into Bobby's ribs as the announcer describes Robinson's early "cannonading" on the inside, causing Dykes heavily labored breathing as early as the second round. SRR would be no picnic for Duran in close quarters. On an all time P4P basis, I have the Duran of Montreal, Palomino and DeJesus III as number two, but Robby at the top of the food chain.

For me, this would likely go the 15 round limit with no knockdowns. A prepared and alerted Robinson takes the decision cleanly, but I have no great quarrel with anybody who favors Montreal Duran. In a series, El Cholo could certainly spring an upset.

What footage I've seen of a younger Robinson overpowering lighter competition (such as Angott), suggests more of an early Hearns type stalker than a dancing master, stabbing down with his jab offensively while advancing behind it. (JohnGarfield, can you shed more light on this? As versatile as he was, I get the impression he was more of a preying mantis when competing among lightweights and welterweights, a predator who tended to crush outgunned opposition, or hound them into retreat.)

[john garfield]

Randy Shields was emphatic in proclaiming that SRL telegraphed his punches, and he, Benitez, and Duran in Montreal, all did indeed make him miss a great deal. (For his part, Leonard repeatedly described how Shields was proficient at creating an "illusion" of hitability during Randy's challenge of Hearns.) I haven't encountered such a similar claim by Robby's opponents.

In the videotape of Robinson-Dykes, we can hear Robby's shots thudding into Bobby's ribs as the announcer describes Robinson's early "cannonading" on the inside, causing Dykes heavily labored breathing as early as the second round. SRR would be no picnic for Duran in close quarters. On an all time P4P basis, I have the Duran of Montreal, Palomino and DeJesus III as number two, but Robby at the top of the food chain.

For me, this would likely go the 15 round limit with no knockdowns. A prepared and alerted Robinson takes the decision cleanly, but I have no great quarrel with anybody who favors Montreal Duran. In a series, El Cholo could certainly spring an upset.

What footage I've seen of a younger Robinson overpowering lighter competition (such as Angott), suggests more of an early Hearns type stalker than a dancing master, stabbing down with his jab offensively while advancing behind it. (JohnGarfield, can you shed more light on this? As versatile as he was, I get the impression he was more of a preying mantis when competing among lightweights and welterweights, a predator who tended to crush outgunned opposition, or hound them into retreat.)

Good characterization, D. Every second was about puttin' the hammer down.

[MAG1965]

A close fight. Could go either way. Duran in Montreal was different then just about every fighter who ever fought, and It might make up for the difference in size. Duran trained ror that fight like he never trained before, and he had the win or die thing going on. Bringing up fights like Benitez or Leaonard 2 in this debate is a waste of time. Totally different animal here. This Duran was far and away the best fighter Robinson ever got in the ring with.Duran is the only fighter who is different for specific fights. If he wins he was just unbeatable, and the next fight he didn't train so he cannot be insulted. Bringing up other fights shows the complete picture of the man. You cannot selectively pick which fight you rate a person's greatness- it has to be the totality. Why don't we just ignore Hearns losing to Hagler and Leonard and Barkley and just focus on the Duran fight? This is why Duran in any discussion is ridiculous. Duran fans are not being logical about him. If he lost to all the greats he fought then that is significant.

[teeto]

Duran is the only fighter who is different for specific fights. If he wins he was just unbeatable, and the next fight he didn't train so he cannot be insulted. Bringing up other fights shows the complete picture of the man. You cannot selectively pick which fight you rate a person's greatness- it has to be the totality. Why don't we just ignore Hearns losing to Hagler and Leonard and Barkley and just focus on the Duran fight? This is why Duran in any discussion is ridiculous. Duran fans are not being logical about him. If he lost to all the greats he fought then that is significant.
I'm still wondering about your comment on how anyone with some speed and movement beats Duran easily.

By the way Roberto Duran is my favourite fighter bar none and i picked Robinson inside the distance, though i never said so with 100% convinstion, i pick Robinson every time on this one regardless of the method of victory.

Enough of the attempt to make out the classic forum overrates Roberto Duran now. Maybe we just rate him as what he is. He can be beaten, it takes a man to put it all together on the night to do so in his prime. We say it as it is here.

[duranimal]

Duran is the only fighter who is different for specific fights. If he wins he was just unbeatable, and the next fight he didn't train so he cannot be insulted. Bringing up other fights shows the complete picture of the man. You cannot selectively pick which fight a fighter is great. Why don't we just ignore Hearns losing to Hagler and Leonard and Barkley and just focus on the Duran fight? This is why Duran in any discussion is ridiculous.

Why would you want to insult him?

I bet deep down you wish you could go back in time & when given the choice you became a duran fan:D

Just think how much happier you would be in yourself + you'd end up with all the 1st choice pussy & a succesfull businesman & live a long & happy life instead of this "Why don't people invite me to any parties" existance, Duran fan's are happy fans, it a'nt to late to make a succes of yer life, seek the light & be like me:deal:p:yep:D

[MAG1965]

I'm still wondering about your comment on how anyone with some speed and movement beats Duran easily.

By the way Roberto Duran is my favourite fighter bar none and i picked Robinson inside the distance, though i never said so with 100% convinstion, i pick Robinson every time on this one regardless of the method of victory.

Enough of the attempt to make out the classic forum overrates Roberto Duran now. Maybe we just rate him as what he is. He can be beaten, it takes a man to put it all together on the night to do so in his prime. We say it as it is here.Good post. I know what you mean. I just do not think that a fighter is so much different one time till another. Take any fighter and see how much better he looks when he wins. He looks faster and better and brilliant when he wins. The opposition makes him look that way.

[MAG1965]

Why would you want to insult him?

I bet deep down you wish you could go back in time & when given the choice you became a duran fan:D

Just think how much happier you would be in yourself + you'd end up with all the 1st choice pussy & a succesfull businesman & live a long & happy life instead of this "Why don't people invite me to any parties" existance, Duran fan's are happy fans, it a'nt to late to make a succes of yer life, seek the light & be like me:deal:p:yep:DI was a Duran fan actually. I rooted for him with Hagler. I like Roberto as a fighter and he has helped boxing- what bothered me was when he did lose-the excuses for Duran took away from great fighters like Leonard ,Hearns and Benitez, guys who put just as much into boxing as Duran. This is not about Duran it is about the excuses which take away from other fighters, and he encouraged it by starting the excuses. As though a fighter has to brawl with him to make it a real boxing match. SRL boxing in the second fight was brilliance. Saying Duran fans are happy is fine, but it would be more convincing if they saw his whole career honestly, but it is an interesting point. True happiness comes from true honesty, and for Duran fans to be honest they have admit that he had a weakness technically when it came to guys who moved or had speed, and that he did lose the fights to the best fighters he ever fought. As for the happiness stuff. I have met many people who smile all the time and act happy, yet true happiness when they are honest with themselves is the real accomplishment. How did you get me started on this happiness stuff. This is fun though. Take care.

[teeto]

Good post. I know what you mean. I just do not think that a fighter is so much different one time till another. Take any fighter and see how much better he looks when he wins. He looks faster and better and brilliant when he wins. The opposition makes him look that way.
Yeah i'm the same, i don't like saying 'Montreal Duran wins', but some other different Duran doesn't, he's just Duran. If there is room to be made though for being in form when it comes to hypothetical match-ups, or the fighter being in his prime, then that would either be him fighting Leonard or him at lightweight.

Like i said though, i never do the 'Montreal Duran' thing, i agree with you that he's the same man all the time, providing he's in peak condition and prime. He really is one of the best to ever do it though. Robinson would win because of his ability to counter with multiple shots and his positioning together with balance in my opinion, it's not a case of him running round the ring away from Duran. It would be such a good fight though, these are two of the greatest ever for getting off first whilst standing off the opponent, that would be a spectacle in itself.

[PhillyPhan69]

Yeah i'm the same, i don't like saying 'Montreal Duran wins', but some other different Duran doesn't, he's just Duran. If there is room to be made though for being in form when it comes to hypothetical match-ups, or the fighter being in his prime, then that would either be him fighting Leonard or him at lightweight.

Like i said though, i never do the 'Montreal Duran' thing, i agree with you that he's the same man all the time, providing he's in peak condition and prime. He really is one of the best to ever do it though. Robinson would win because of his ability to counter with multiple shots and his positioning together with balance in my opinion, it's not a case of him running round the ring away from Duran. It would be such a good fight though, these are two of the greatest ever for getting off first whilst standing off the opponent, that would be a spectacle in itself.

Yeah teeto, but you are a great poster, and a rational fan of Duran...I think you accidently got tossed in with some extremists!!! Peace

[teeto]

Yeah teeto, but you are a great poster, and a rational fan of Duran...I think you accidently got tossed in with some extremists!!! Peace

:lol::happy