The Sugar's Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard & Shane Mosley

[ripcity]

All 3 seem to be outstanding athletes with exlent boxing skills but are not classic style boxers. They are also on the tall side for their weights Mosley is 5′ 9″ while Robinson is 5′ 11″ and Leonard is 5′ 10".

[GPater11093]

OK, and what about it?

[ripcity]

OK, and what about it?
Just an observation and opinion of mine. Fell free to agree or dissgree if you want.:D

[GPater11093]

Just an observation and opinion of mine. Fell free to agree or dissgree if you want.:D

OK.

I think all three found a way to maximise their athletic ability through their boxing style.

Out of all of them I think Ray Leonard is the most fundamentally sound. But Ray Robinson is the best.

[teeto]

Greg's probably right. People say Robinson's jab wasn't right, but he could shut people out with more or less just that when past his best. So that further argues Greg's point that even if he was not the best fundamentally, he was the best of the three.

Mosley for me in a technical sense is not as good as them two. Not in terms of the basic fundamentals anyway, though his advanced punching stuff is not bad at all. He goes to the body with conviction and could finish with combos in his prime very well. When it comes to boxing though both the other two have it down and Shane doesn't. Robinson simply has more in his arsenal than Leonard in my opinion.

Here you knew i'd say it, 'i did a thread on that', haha

[Flea Man]

Two of these guys had great feet.

One of them didn't/doesn't.

[Boxed Ears]

All great, but progressively less so.

[lora]

Leonard and Robinson certainly were classic boxer-punchers imo.

Mosley is an unskilled labourer by comparison, as far as technical skills go.an athletic offensive force, who never learned to refine his style, and often looked as if he was now wary of letting his hands go, post Forrest defeat.

[GPater11093]

Greg's probably right. People say Robinson's jab wasn't right, but he could shut people out with more or less just that when past his best. So that further argues Greg's point that even if he was not the best fundamentally, he was the best of the three.

Mosley for me in a technical sense is not as good as them two. Not in terms of the basic fundamentals anyway, though his advanced punching stuff is not bad at all. He goes to the body with conviction and could finish with combos in his prime very well. When it comes to boxing though both the other two have it down and Shane doesn't. Robinson simply has more in his arsenal than Leonard in my opinion.

Here you knew i'd say it, 'i did a thread on that', haha

The Fifties were a great time for boxing, especially technique.

The Murderer's Row solidified the fundamentals and were traditionalists who learnt off each other; Robinson was an innovater who broke the mould.

Also I have always said Mosley was just a flashy, athletic, mid range slugger.

[teeto]

The Fifties were a great time for boxing, especially technique.

The Murderer's Row solidified the fundamentals and were traditionalists who learnt off each other; Robinson was an innovater who broke the mould.

Also I have always said Mosley was just a flashy, athletic, mid range slugger.
That's one of your best posts GP.

[GPater11093]

That's one of your best posts GP.

Why thank you.

Its a wee little quote I thought sounded good one time I said it to myself and I memorised it since.

[darealchamp23]

Don't forget about Sugar Ray Seales. :good

[teeto]

Don't forget about Sugar Ray Seales. :good
Haha yeah, Hagler's nemesis.

[itrymariti]

Wow, Mosley is getting some real stick on this thread.

[itrymariti]

Two of these guys had great feet.

One of them didn't/doesn't.

Maybe he wasn't quite on the level of Ray I and II, but Mosley had very good, fast feet in his prime. Could hop back and make an opponent fall short and then shift his weight forward and counter effortlessly. Could close down a retreating opponent very quickly too. Let's not start dismissing him as some pathetic imitation. Even Ray II approved of Shane.

[Son of Gaul]

All 3 seem to be outstanding athletes with exlent boxing skills but are not classic style boxers. They are also on the tall side for their weights Mosley is 5′ 9″ while Robinson is 5′ 11″ and Leonard is 5′ 10".

They're all on the tall side for the weightclasses that they began their careers in yes. But they all moved up at some point. In any case, I agree that they were all phenomenal boxers with a broad skill set who could boxer or punch although Mosley like mixing it up a little more than the other two.

[Bokaj]

OK.

I think all three found a way to maximise their athletic ability through their boxing style.

Out of all of them I think Ray Leonard is the most fundamentally sound. But Ray Robinson is the best.

Interesting viewpoint. Where do you think Robinson lacked in fundamentals comapred to Leonard?

[Bokaj]

The Fifties were a great time for boxing, especially technique.

The Murderer's Row solidified the fundamentals and were traditionalists who learnt off each other; Robinson was an innovater who broke the mould.

Also I have always said Mosley was just a flashy, athletic, mid range slugger.

I'd more than anything have Robinson as someone who set the modern mould. Well, maybe he broke the old one and set the new one.

To me he's more fundamentally sound than Burley, Moore and Walcott. He had the works.

His jab doesn't look all that fantastic at MW, but at WW it's another story.

[GPater11093]

Interesting viewpoint. Where do you think Robinson lacked in fundamentals comapred to Leonard?

I just think it's more a case of Leonard being one of the most complete Boxer-Puncher's ever rather than a weakness of Robinson.

I'd more than anything have Robinson as someone who set the modern mould. Well, maybe he broke the old one and set the new one.

To me he's more fundamentally sound than Burley, Moore and Walcott. He had the works.

His jab doesn't look all that fantastic at MW, but at WW it's another story.

Exactly how I see it, he innovated the modern fundamentals.

[Bokaj]

I just think it's more a case of Leonard being one of the most complete Boxer-Puncher's ever rather than a weakness of Robinson.



Exactly how I see it, he innovated the modern fundamentals.

And I thought we had the beginning of a discussion there.;) My man.

By the way, you're an excellent poster. The new prodigy now that Sweet Pea is leaving his teens (and this board?).

[TheGreatA]

Recently I had a discussion with someone who thought Robinson's jab was horrible and that he was little more than a puncher with below average defense. The same person also thought that Ray Leonard was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Obviously I disagreed but it was interesting that someone would think this.

[Flea Man]

And I thought we had the beginning of a discussion there.;) My man.

By the way, you're an excellent poster. The new prodigy now that Sweet Pea is leaving his teens (and this board?).

He's still here.

[Bokaj]

Recently I had a discussion with someone who thought Robinson's jab was horrible and that he was little more than a puncher with below average defense. The same person also thought that Ray Leonard was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Obviously I disagreed but it was interesting that someone would think this.

It is. But then some think the earth is flat.

As I said, at MW Robinson's jab doesn't look all conquering IMO, even if it clearly does the job, but at WW it's another story.

Leonard's jab was also sharper at WW. I think too many judge Leonard's punching on the Hagler fight. He sure wasn't "shoe-shining" in his prime.

[Bokaj]

He's still here.

But not making himself as frequently known. But he'll back, I'm sure.;)

[GPater11093]

And I thought we had the beginning of a discussion there.;) My man.

By the way, you're an excellent poster. The new prodigy now that Sweet Pea is leaving his teens (and this board?).

Why thank you.

Ray Leonard is quite underrated IMO, but he honestly is one of the most rounded fighters I have seen and I thank Sweet Pea for making me realise it.

Recently I had a discussion with someone who thought Robinson's jab was horrible and that he was little more than a puncher with below average defense. The same person also thought that Ray Leonard was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Obviously I disagreed but it was interesting that someone would think this.

Robinson had an effective jab, it wasnt awesome but it did the job. But SRR wasnt the regular boxer he was an offensive machine. He was 10x better when he was letting his hands go with his dazzling combinations. But when he needed a rest he would get up on that bike and 'box', and people regard him as a great 'boxer' but he really was an offensive machine, shows how good he was that his secondary function is hailed as brilliant.

[TheGreatA]

Robinson had an effective jab, it wasnt awesome but it did the job. But SRR wasnt the regular boxer he was an offensive machine. He was 10x better when he was letting his hands go with his dazzling combinations. But when he needed a rest he would get up on that bike and 'box', and people regard him as a great 'boxer' but he really was an offensive machine, shows how good he was that his secondary function is hailed as brilliant.

That's what I tried to say to him and even pointed out to Leonard's Ayub Kalule performance.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Aggression takes away from your defense. Also most of the footage on Robinson is him into his 30's. No one (outside of redrooster) brings up Leonard's fights against Lalonde, Hearns (the second time), Norris as proof that he was easy to hit.

[GPater11093]

That's what I tried to say to him and even pointed out to Leonard's Ayub Kalule performance.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Aggression takes away from your defense. Also most of the footage on Robinson is him into his 30's.

Sorry, I'm missing the point what does the Kalule footage prove? I think it might be that, that was one of Leonards most aggresive performances but his defence wasnt at his best. Actually its one of my favrouite Leonard perforamnces.

[TheGreatA]

Sorry, I'm missing the point what does the Kalule footage prove? I think it might be that, that was one of Leonards most aggresive performances but his defence wasnt at his best. Actually its one of my favrouite Leonard perforamnces.

I should have explained it better.

Basically I had an argument with someone who didn't rate Robinson as highly as Leonard because he thought Robinson was defensively poor and had a horrible jab. However when Robinson was being defensive he was more difficult to hit than when he was being offensive, Joey Maxim went onto say that he could not land a glove on Robinson for 13 rounds. When Leonard got more aggressive, his defense wasn't all that great either as seen against Kalule in an otherwise impressive performance.

[GPater11093]

I should have explained it better.

Basically I had an argument with someone who didn't rate Robinson as highly as Leonard because he thought Robinson was defensively poor and had a horrible jab. However when Robinson was being defensive he was more difficult to hit than when he was being offensive, Joey Maxim went onto say that he could not land a glove on Robinson for 13 rounds. When Leonard got more aggressive, his defense wasn't all that great either as seen against Kalule in an otherwise impressive performance.

Yeh exactly, the Maxim fight is impressive in showing Robinson's boxing skills but his best performance is the late rounds of the 6th Lamotta fight where he piles on the pressure and combos

[lora]

the Kalule performance was probably Leonard's most Robinson-like effort.And maybe Ranzany.It was a good tactical choice, fighting a slower paced tactical fight would have made things tougher.

[Bokaj]

That's what I tried to say to him and even pointed out to Leonard's Ayub Kalule performance.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Aggression takes away from your defense. Also most of the footage on Robinson is him into his 30's. No one (outside of redrooster) brings up Leonard's fights against Lalonde, Hearns (the second time), Norris as proof that he was easy to hit.

This really shows that Leonard's natural state was as a boxer-puncher who liked to mix it up, even at LMW. Only the fight against Hagler (one of the toughest MWs ever) and the rematch against Duran would make you think otherwise. But that was him going against his instincts.

[TheGreatA]

This really shows that Leonard's natural state was as a boxer-puncher who liked to mix it up, even at LMW. Only the fight against Hagler (one of the toughest MWs ever) and the rematch against Duran would make you think otherwise. But that was him going against his instincts.

Agreed.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[teeto]

People don't still think Leonard was an outboxer by design/nature do they? Come on, we've cleared this one up to the point where it doesn't exist even as a myth anymore.

[GPater11093]

People don't still think Leonard was an outboxer by design/nature do they? Come on, we've cleared this one up to the point where it doesn't exist even as a myth anymore.

Leonard was a bone fide Boxer-puncher. Sure he had movement and slick skills but it all boils down to a boxer-puncher style and general mentality.

[teeto]

Leonard was a bone fide Boxer-puncher. Sure he had movement and slick skills but it all boils down to a boxer-puncher style and general mentality.
He would box at times and use movement, always to set up offense though, and to create openings etc. He'd use his great jab centre ring, he'd befuddle opponents and unload. If he had you backing up or by contrast, coming right onto him, he'd punish you (most of the time). I agree with what you're calling him, just thought i'd break down how i see him fighting. People have acted as though he was a defensive wizard, it's madness.

On this thread topic, Robinson>Leonard imo, one of the big reasons is that Robinson was better/more consistent at throwing accurate combos of devastating shots before anything had even developed in the bout. If he was in that mode, he could be standing off a guy then just land a combo of head and body shots, all that hurt. More often than not, Leonard would let something develop first, by jabbing etc.

[TommyV]

Wow, Mosley is getting some real stick on this thread.

Not really, he was just a level below Robinson & Leonard. No shame in that, still an elite fighter at his best who achieved an awful lot.

[teeto]

Not really, he was just a level below Robinson & Leonard. No shame in that, still an elite fighter at his best who achieved an awful lot.
That's it. Anyone is going to seem as though they are getting stick in comparison to those two.

[GPater11093]

He would box at times and use movement, always to set up offense though, and to create openings etc. He'd use his great jab centre ring, he'd befuddle opponents and unload. If he had you backing up or by contrast, coming right onto him, he'd punish you (most of the time). I agree with what you're calling him, just thought i'd break down how i see him fighting. People have acted as though he was a defensive wizard, it's madness.

On this thread topic, Robinson>Leonard imo, one of the big reasons is that Robinson was better/more consistent at throwing accurate combos of devastating shots before anything had even developed in the bout. If he was in that mode, he could be standing off a guy then just land a combo of head and body shots, all that hurt. More often than not, Leonard would let something develop first, by jabbing etc.

One thing I dont get is that Robinson is mostly hailed as a brilliant 'boxer', I dont see it I think he is definitly more offensive fighter. But saying that alot of the guys who claim that have seen him through his career and all that.

Leonard is the same.

[TommyV]

That's it. Anyone is going to seem as though they are getting stick in comparison to those two.

Spit that mad game yo!

[teeto]

One thing I dont get is that Robinson is mostly hailed as a brilliant 'boxer', I dont see it I think he is definitly more offensive fighter. But saying that alot of the guys who claim that have seen him through his career and all that.

Leonard is the same.
Robinson is the best offense man of all time in my opinion. Big claim when you think of Duran, and others you might have a personal preference for, but the calculation of the attacks of Robinson might just edge it for me. It's beyond superlatives. But make no mistake, the man could box, the way he does so against LaMotta, and with power shots, at times teeing off on the back foot with right uppercuts, it's just insane to comprehend. He apparently ourboxed Kid Gavilan and we've seen him do it to the likes of Bobo Olson who is a world class middleweight.

[teeto]

Spit that mad game yo!
I knew it was coming,

ahem

spit that mad game yo

[GPater11093]

Robinson is the best offense man of all time in my opinion. Big claim when you think of Duran, and others you might have a personal preference for, but the calculation of the attacks of Robinson might just edge it for me. It's beyond superlatives. But make no mistake, the man could box, the way he does so against LaMotta, and with power shots, at times teeing off on the back foot with right uppercuts, it's just insane to comprehend. He apparently ourboxed Kid Gavilan and we've seen him do it to the likes of Bobo Olson who is a world class middleweight.

Definitly.

Bets offensive fighter and a great boxer.