Camacho and Leonard: Shades of Jealousy

[Briscoe]

I mentioned this in a previous post that Addie brought up (concerning hand speed) and it got me thinking. Did any of you guys ever hear Sugar Ray Leonard's commentary on Hector Camacho during Leonard's retirement and Macho's rise to the boxing limelight? He was in awe and silently jealous. You could almost hear the wheels working in his speech. He wanted to praise Camacho, then take him on. Then later I was reading the Sports' Illustrated article vault online (I recommend it) for Camacho and I found Leonard giving even more praise for Camacho and admitting his speed and combinations is so much more intact then Leonard could ever be ready for. Anybody else notice this between Leonard and Camacho?

Extra note: this time period would have been around 1983 to 1986. From Camacho's first title up to his split decision win against Rosario. Obviously there must have been more talk in other years since they fought in 1997(!!!). However, that time period (83-86) seems to be where those seeds had planted for that belated matchup.

[BENNY BLANCO]

I mentioned this in a previous post that Addie brought up (concerning hand speed) and it got me thinking. Did any of you guys ever hear Sugar Ray Leonard's commentary on Hector Camacho during Leonard's retirement and Macho's rise to the boxing limelight? He was in awe and silently jealous. You could almost hear the wheels working in his speech. He wanted to praise Camacho, then take him on. Then later I was reading the Sports' Illustrated article vault online (I recommend it) for Camacho and I found Leonard giving even more praise for Camacho and admitting his speed and combinations is so much more intact then Leonard could ever be ready for. Anybody else notice this between Leonard and Camacho?

Extra note: this time period would have been around 1983 to 1986. From Camacho's first title up to his split decision win against Rosario. Obviously there must have been more talk in other years since they fought in 1997(!!!). However, that time period (83-86) seems to be where those seeds had planted for that belated matchup. Some here in the Classic section will accuse you of being another poster after reading this.:rofl

[techks]

I don't think it's jealousy but instead constant need to be in the spotlight. Leonard loved attention.

[Jorodz]

I don't think it's jealousy but instead constant need to be in the spotlight. Leonard loved attention.

i agree, and no doubt duranimal will be here shortly to do the same

[divac]

I mentioned this in a previous post that Addie brought up (concerning hand speed) and it got me thinking. Did any of you guys ever hear Sugar Ray Leonard's commentary on Hector Camacho during Leonard's retirement and Macho's rise to the boxing limelight? He was in awe and silently jealous. You could almost hear the wheels working in his speech. He wanted to praise Camacho, then take him on. Then later I was reading the Sports' Illustrated article vault online (I recommend it) for Camacho and I found Leonard giving even more praise for Camacho and admitting his speed and combinations is so much more intact then Leonard could ever be ready for. Anybody else notice this between Leonard and Camacho?

Extra note: this time period would have been around 1983 to 1986. From Camacho's first title up to his split decision win against Rosario. Obviously there must have been more talk in other years since they fought in 1997(!!!). However, that time period (83-86) seems to be where those seeds had planted for that belated matchup.

Nonsense, I was a big fan back then, and I never heard even rumors that there could possibly be a Leonard-Camacho fight.
The only reason why the fight came about when it did, is because Leonard saw Roberto Duran beating Camacho and he thought he could do the same thing.:lol::lol::lol:

Little did Leonard know was that Camacho was ill prepared for Duran making him look like shit against him..........when Leonard got into the ring with Camacho, Camacho just steamrolled him.:D:yep
......having not cared for how Leonard manipulated conditions to others over the years, I have to admit I was pleased to see it happen!:happy

My opinion however was that Camacho was just too good for an old Leonard.......that same Leonard imo beats the Duran that was robbed against Camacho.

[redrooster]

I think Leonard was indeed dazzled by the speed he wished he had but never did

How Rl must have wanted to jump into the ring to save his fellow Olympian Howard Davis in 87. Even if he could it would have availed him nothing as the lightning quick Camacho was still without peer in the speed department even at his unusually high weight

[Russell]

I've seen seen a more blatantly roided up athlete then Camacho in there against Leonard, it was unbelievable. :lol:

[Son of Gaul]

I don't think it's jealousy but instead constant need to be in the spotlight. Leonard loved attention.

Case closed.

[redrooster]

Hector Camacho has the honored distinction of destroying not one, but two 1976 olympic gold medalists-first Davis then Leonard :yep

[Duodenum]

My chief memory of Ray's comments about Camacho before they squared off has to do with how endlessly delighted he was with the slick way Hector dispatched John Montes in Anchorage. SRL was clearly a Camacho fan, and before broadcasting subsequent matches of his, Ray would sometimes step in the ring to demonstrate to the television audience what he did to Montes. (Nobody dreamed that 14 years and 25 pounds later Hector would retire him.)

[ThinBlack]

I think it was a case of game respecting game.Camacho MAY have been faster, if so, not by much, but Leonard recognized his ability from jump.

[duranimal]

I don't think it's jealousy but instead constant need to be in the spotlight. Leonard loved attention.

Oh thats it allright, He hated any one else eclipsing him in any form or manner, there's history between Hector & Ray over some of rays comments about Hectors fighting style in regard to his attitude during a fight

I can't for the life of me remember which fight it was that Hector was in but it all came about with Leonard true to form paying patronising compliments during his color commentary laced with very subtle digs at Hector, anyway the next time they met Hector called Leonard out, screaming he's a bum he's a bum, get his ass in with me & i'll knock him the fuck out, i'am the real macho man, it's macho time & all the rest of the usual camacho abuse.

It's in one of the 90's mag's down in a sub paragraph to do with another 2 fighters, but it stuck in my mind & it was only reading about when he knocked Leonard out that he said he'd waited years to do that to Leonard for disrespecting him the way he did.

[he grant]

If Hector was faster it was by a hair ... Leonard was a much better fighter and puncher ..

[MAG1965]

Hector Camacho has the honored distinction of destroying not one, but two 1976 olympic gold medalists-first Davis then Leonard :yepI don't even se that he beat Leonard. So what. He fought two guys over the hill. Leonard was way over the hill. Leonard was stupid to fight again.

[redrooster]

Oh thats it allright, He hated any one else eclipsing him in any form or manner, there's history between Hector & Ray over some of rays comments about Hectors fighting style in regard to his attitude during a fight

I can't for the life of me remember which fight it was that Hector was in but it all came about with Leonard true to form paying patronising compliments during his color commentary laced with very subtle digs at Hector, anyway the next time they met Hector called Leonard out, screaming he's a bum he's a bum, get his ass in with me & i'll knock him the fuck out, i'am the real macho man, it's macho time & all the rest of the usual camacho abuse.

It's in one of the 90's mag's down in a sub paragraph to do with another 2 fighters, but it stuck in my mind & it was only reading about when he knocked Leonard out that he said he'd waited years to do that to Leonard for disrespecting him the way he did.

Thanks Duranimal

I had always wondered what fueled Hector's vicious attack on ray. As annoying as Hector was, I guess he couldnt stand him either

[redrooster]

I don't even se that he beat Leonard. So what. He fought two guys over the hill. Leonard was way over the hill. Leonard was stupid to fight again.


I guess you could say that but you must also see the other side of the equation about Hector.

It's unfortunate that Ray went for the bait but not for me because these are questions I always wanted to know. I have always been curious to know if Leoanrd could handle a speed demon like Hector since the time I watched hector's effortless dispatch of Howard Davis. This fight came off roughly two months after the hagler-leonard fight and it had me thinking "I bet Hector could take him. I really do"

Well as luck would have it, this fight became a reality and my questions were answered.

Can Leonard handle the speed of Camacho?

Can Hector handle a bigger man?

How much did the Chavez beating take out of him?

Can Hector regain a small part of the greatness that was once his?

Does hector regain the killer instincthe once showed?

Who is the better infighter?

And of course the all important question of which man is REALLY the better fighter

And we found out

[Russell]

Hector Camacho has the honored distinction of destroying not one, but two 1976 olympic gold medalists-first Davis then Leonard :yep

Ali did that as well. He's not the only fighter to do so. :huh

[redrooster]

Ali did that as well. He's not the only fighter to do so. :huh

I was talking about the 76 Olympians but you're right. Ali must hold the record

Ali has beaten Patterson, Spinks, Frazier, and Foreman and is one himself

[MAG1965]

I guess you could say that but you must also see the other side of the equation about Hector.

It's unfortunate that Ray went for the bait but not for me because these are questions I always wanted to know. I have always been curious to know if Leoanrd could handle a speed demon like Hector since the time I watched hector's effortless dispatch of Howard Davis. This fight came off roughly two months after the hagler-leonard fight and it had me thinking "I bet Hector could take him. I really do"

Well as luck would have it, this fight became a reality and my questions were answered.

Can Leonard handle the speed of Camacho?

Can Hector handle a bigger man?

How much did the Chavez beating take out of him?

Can Hector regain a small part of the greatness that was once his?

Does hector regain the killer instincthe once showed?

Who is the better infighter?

And of course the all important question of which man is REALLY the better fighter

And we found outI don't think the Leonard fight should have answered any of that. Leonard looked terrible in 1997 vs. Hector and even very bad 6 years earlier in the beating he took from Norris which was terrible. As for Camacho,Hector could not handle Tito or Oscar which were more logical fights, and Chavez outclassed him and was his age. Leonard was looking for the easiest fight he could get with the biggest name and Hector Camacho came up. He almost fought Pazienza I remember. He just was jealous of Duran and Hearns who were still fighting, but those guys had something he didn't. Power.. Ray's power always came from speed, but once his speed was gone his power was gone. If you think we found out who the better fighter was then that is fine. Ray was much greater than Hector in my mind. He beat Duran,Benitez,Hearns,Hagler -real ATGs when they were champions. Camacho lost when it mattered and was easily outpointed by Tito and Delahoya and Chavez battered him. Too bad this fight happened. It proved nothing in my mind except how diminished Leonard was and how Ray's ego still wanted the spotlight years after his speed diminished. Ray's speed started to diminish 10 years before. He was a great fighter but his longevity was not great. He got old faster than any of the fab 4.

[MAG1965]

Ali did that as well. He's not the only fighter to do so. :huhHearns fought Leonard from the 1976 Olympics, he fought Shuler who was on the 1980 team which would have gone but the Olympics were boycotted, he beat Virgil Hill who won a medal in 1984, he beat Andrew Maynard who won a medal in the 1988 Olympics. Has anyone fought fighters from 3 or 4 Olympics like Hearns?

[MAG1965]

I was talking about the 76 Olympians but you're right. Ali must hold the record

Ali has beaten Patterson, Spinks, Frazier, and Foreman and is one himselfWell I have my answer. Very impressive. Hearns fought them at different weights, but different stat.

[Unforgiven]

I've seen seen a more blatantly roided up athlete then Camacho in there against Leonard, it was unbelievable. :lol:

Vinny Pazienza at 165 or 168 was very similar too. Blatantly roided up.

[Briscoe]

I pay little attention to the fight that happened in 1997. More of an afterthought for two careers. Hector was good at parleying win streaks against c-level talent into big name fights. That sad fact is a lot of those "big" Camacho fights were after his best, and far removed from his original weight.

I'm interested in how SRL reacted around Camacho. It gives a good picture of mental processes that both fighters displayed. Particularly SRL in this case. I'll admit, I'm just getting to know Camacho. I've always passed the guy off because someone told me a few years back, "He'll always be second best to a lot of fighters, talented but he just didn't have...champion quality parts".

Anybody ever read any of the early 1980s Sports Illustrated articles on Camacho? They praise him for a couple articles, then Rosario happens and they reveal his dislike for being hit and it slowly chips away from there. I think there's like 4 total. There's more, but the early 80s give the Camacho 'rise and decline'.

[Rubber Warrior]

I believe Hector was so good he could virtually cruise through the less gifted and less talented, finally dialing in to what the fight game could and was really all about when Rosario got to him. He stated just after their match that he couldn't understand why Rosario kept nailing him or that he was surprised that he wasn't slipping by untouched, hinting that that's what he expected to do going into it. Plus there were lots of outside distractions back then for Hector.

At his best, most focused, he could compete and possibly beat just about anyone....but like I predicted for the Oscar fight, he'll get tagged and recall Rosario, switch into survival mode and lose a decision...when he should have switched to a higher gear and implemented another plan of attack.

[Stonehands89]

Vinny Pazienza at 165 or 168 was very similar too. Blatantly roided up.
Take a look at Jones vs. Paz. Looks like two to me.

[Jorodz]

I don't think the Leonard fight should have answered any of that. Leonard looked terrible in 1997 vs. Hector and even very bad 6 years earlier in the beating he took from Norris which was terrible. As for Camacho,Hector could not handle Tito or Oscar which were more logical fights, and Chavez outclassed him and was his age. Leonard was looking for the easiest fight he could get with the biggest name and Hector Camacho came up. He almost fought Pazienza I remember. He just was jealous of Duran and Hearns who were still fighting, but those guys had something he didn't. Power.. Ray's power always came from speed, but once his speed was gone his power was gone. If you think we found out who the better fighter was then that is fine. Ray was much greater than Hector in my mind. He beat Duran,Benitez,Hearns,Hagler -real ATGs when they were champions. Camacho lost when it mattered and was easily outpointed by Tito and Delahoya and Chavez battered him. Too bad this fight happened. It proved nothing in my mind except how diminished Leonard was and how Ray's ego still wanted the spotlight years after his speed diminished. Ray's speed started to diminish 10 years before. He was a great fighter but his longevity was not great. He got old faster than any of the fab 4.

very good post:thumbsup

[Russell]

Vinny Pazienza at 165 or 168 was very similar too. Blatantly roided up.

Yeah, that soft look from water retention... Lot of bulky muscle but no striation, or definition.

You can dry out and look great, ripped... Or you can just go "fuck it" and come in like Camacho. :lol:

[MAG1965]

I believe Hector was so good he could virtually cruise through the less gifted and less talented, finally dialing in to what the fight game could and was really all about when Rosario got to him. He stated just after their match that he couldn't understand why Rosario kept nailing him or that he was surprised that he wasn't slipping by untouched, hinting that that's what he expected to do going into it. Plus there were lots of outside distractions back then for Hector.

At his best, most focused, he could compete and possibly beat just about anyone....but like I predicted for the Oscar fight, he'll get tagged and recall Rosario, switch into survival mode and lose a decision...when he should have switched to a higher gear and implemented another plan of attack.I am not sure Hector could beat just about anyone. There was a weakness in him which came out with Rosario. Maybe his lack or power or attitude. He was so great at 130, but if he did not have a guy in front of him who was older or had some weakness he did not do very well. A prime good fighter beat him, but an older good fighter he could beat .I am not convinced he was great. But he was very good. Something in my mind limits his greatness. Hector did not have the instincts of a great fighter like a Ray Leonard to sense what he had to do to win a fight, and that is important.

[redrooster]

I am not sure Hector could beat just about anyone. There was a weakness in him which came out with Rosario. Maybe his lack or power or attitude. He was so great at 130, but if he did not have a guy in front of him who was older or had some weakness he did not do very well. A prime good fighter beat him, but an older good fighter he could beat .I am not convinced he was great. But he was very good. Something in my mind limits his greatness. Hector did not have the instincts of a great fighter like a Ray Leonard to sense what he had to do to win a fight, and that is important.

Had Ray made the mistake of encountering a young Camacho, (say at 25) even in an over the weight affair 147 vs 140, it would be a mistake.

hector was too fast for him and nearly unhittable as could be seen in the Davis fight. Ray would go the distance in this one but he would lose because of Hector's STYLE

Ray wasnt able to adjust quickly enough or in time for someone like Hector who would stay two steps in front of him.

Guys like Hector, Nunn, and Norris just reacted quicker in fights and would throw Leonard's timing off. Remember: Leonard was not comfortable in the role of aggressor but more of a counterpuncher who preferred his opponent (usually a pre selected flat footed opponent) to come at him.

But against a dominant speedster (Jones, Camacho-those types) Ray foundered in fights. This could be seen as far back as the first Hearns fight once he got on his bicycle. No doubt this would not go unnoticed by Hector the master boxer who was even faster than Ray. Add to the fact that Hector being smaller and offering less to hit, would be much harder to tag later in the fight so a late round tko seems unlikely

[duranimal]

Had Ray made the mistake of encountering a young Camacho, (say at 25) even in an over the weight affair 147 vs 140, it would be a mistake.

hector was too fast for him and nearly unhittable as could be seen in the Davis fight. Ray would go the distance in this one but he would lose because of Hector's STYLE

Ray wasnt able to adjust quickly enough or in time for someone like Hector who would stay two steps in front of him.

Guys like Hector, Nunn, and Norris just reacted quicker in fights and would throw Leonard's timing off. Remember: Leonard was not comfortable in the role of aggressor but more of a counterpuncher who preferred his opponent (usually a pre selected flat footed opponent) to come at him.

But against a dominant speedster (Jones, Camacho-those types) Ray foundered in fights. This could be seen as far back as the first Hearns fight once he got on his bicycle. No doubt this would not go unnoticed by Hector the master boxer who was even faster than Ray. Add to the fact that Hector being smaller and offering less to hit, would be much harder to tag later in the fight so a late round tko seems unlikely

I agree with you as Hector would be an absolute nightmare for Ray, he'd not look good in this one, He'd look like a man trying to shovel up sand using a sieve & as you said Ray liked to plant his feet & unload those blistering combo's from the counter once he'd slipped the opponants lead, speed & timing from the counter were his forte.

Hector would would sting Ray plenty & often just as Benitez did who also made Ray look ponderous & who had Ray missing with whole 5/6 punch clusters, Hector would be like a wasp & a very frustrating night for Leonard, as i said, he would'nt look good in there with Hector:nono

I recken we could be looking at the speeded up version of DLH/PACMAN:lol:

[lefthook31]

Camacho was not a clean living man. He was into that 80's coke scene. He could never live up to the image of Ray. Hes a dick too if you ever meet him.

[duranimal]

Camacho was not a clean living man. He was into that 80's coke scene. He could never live up to the image of Ray. Hes a dick too if you ever meet him.

I agree, he's deff scum, i met him back in 90 at the Hilton the day before the Chavez/Taylor 1 fight, he did'nt give a shit about anyone around him period, totaly oblivious. Pushing/shoving/screaming at the bar staff/card dealers/punters ect, did'nt give a flying fuck who he offended, he thought it was hilarious.

[Rubber Warrior]

I am not sure Hector could beat just about anyone. There was a weakness in him which came out with Rosario. Maybe his lack or power or attitude. He was so great at 130, but if he did not have a guy in front of him who was older or had some weakness he did not do very well. A prime good fighter beat him, but an older good fighter he could beat .I am not convinced he was great. But he was very good. Something in my mind limits his greatness. Hector did not have the instincts of a great fighter like a Ray Leonard to sense what he had to do to win a fight, and that is important.

Emphasis on "just about". ;)

[Rubber Warrior]

Camacho was not a clean living man. He was into that 80's coke scene. He could never live up to the image of Ray. Hes a dick too if you ever meet him.

He's a hard guy to nail down for an interview despite having the proclivity for talking. Do you remember when he broke down on network television after a win? He started crying during a post fight interview with Jim Lampley.....telling the world he had no friends and just wanted to be liked.

:patsch

[Rubber Warrior]

I agree, he's deff scum, i met him back in 90 at the Hilton the day before the Chavez/Taylor 1 fight, he did'nt give a shit about anyone around him period, totaly oblivious. Pushing/shoving/screaming at the bar staff/card dealers/punters ect, did'nt give a flying fuck who he offended, he thought it was hilarious.

Are you describing Hector Camacho or the typical macho New Yorker?

[duranimal]

Are you describing Hector Camacho or the typical macho New Yorker?

:lol: To true!

I've got alot of family who live in NY, jeezus, have they ever suffered when they've been over here:yep

On one occasion one of my cousins just shoved his way to the bar (Again) at my local boozer, he'd been politely warned about his lack of manners & a few fellers approached me & asked me if this yank was with me, Yeh, it's OK, leave him alone, i'll sort him out & when i went for a piss he still had to go & chat someone else's girl up. I just heard the screams after some feller head-butted him then battered him, fuckin hilarious, I stopped him getting a real serious kickin, he was so upset about being head-butted, that ai'nt fair he squealed, what i do??? as i pushed him into a taxi too send him to the Hospital:rofl I went back in for another beer:smoke

[Clinton]

Nonsense, I was a big fan back then, and I never heard even rumors that there could possibly be a Leonard-Camacho fight.
The only reason why the fight came about when it did, is because Leonard saw Roberto Duran beating Camacho and he thought he could do the same thing.:lol::lol::lol:

Little did Leonard know was that Camacho was ill prepared for Duran making him look like shit against him..........when Leonard got into the ring with Camacho, Camacho just steamrolled him.:D:yep
......having not cared for how Leonard manipulated conditions to others over the years, I have to admit I was pleased to see it happen!:happy

My opinion however was that Camacho was just too good for an old Leonard.......that same Leonard imo beats the Duran that was robbed against Camacho.
Great comment.:good:good

[Clinton]

He's a hard guy to nail down for an interview despite having the proclivity for talking. Do you remember when he broke down on network television after a win? He started crying during a post fight interview with Jim Lampley.....telling the world he had no friends and just wanted to be liked.

:patsch
No surprise there as he really was a classless dick.

[Clinton]

Emphasis on "just about". ;)
I personally thought Cubanito Perez and "Chapo" Rosario,as well as Duran,were robbed against him.

[Rubber Warrior]

No surprise there as he really was a classless dick.

Well, one does tend to play into another, and if he was oblivious to his actions one would hope he'd tie the two matters in together with a little self review. The whole breakdown with Lampley came out of nowhere and made me laugh. The irony of that episode was not lost upon me given his "macho" pretenses.

:lol:

[Duodenum]

I personally thought Cubanito Perez and "Chapo" Rosario, as well as Duran, were robbed against him.Seconded.

Irleis Perez would have been a champion if it wasn't for all those damned allergies of his. (He came close against Jimmy Paul anyway.) I've rarely seen somebody's knees buckle early from a body attack the way Cubanito buckled Camacho's. For the rest of the match, all Hector did was rush in with a few jabs followed by a clinch. Perez seemed so much bigger and stronger than Camacho. As fast as Hector was, their bout suggested to me that he could find himself in a great deal of difficulty when dealing with superior physical strength. A rematch between these two would have been interesting.

I remember a writer at the time (Farhood?) cautioning that if Hector didn't manage his behavior better that he'd become "Sonny Liston with a smile." (Translation: Camacho needs his Ritalin.)

[Clinton]

Well, one does tend to play into another, and if he was oblivious to his actions one would hope he'd tie the two matters in together with a little self review. The whole breakdown with Lampley came out of nowhere and made me laugh. The irony of that episode was not lost upon me given his "macho" pretenses.

:lol:
Well put.

[Clinton]

Seconded.

Irleis Perez would have been a champion if it wasn't for all those damned allergies of his. (He came close against Jimmy Paul anyway.) I've rarely seen somebody's knees buckle early from a body attack the way Cubanito buckled Camacho's. For the rest of the match, all Hector did was rush in with a few jabs followed by a clinch. Perez seemed so much bigger and stronger than Camacho. As fast as Hector was, their bout suggested to me that he could find himself in a great deal of difficulty when dealing with superior physical strength. A rematch between these two would have been interesting.

I remember a writer at the time (Farhood?) cautioning that if Hector didn't manage his behavior better that he'd become "Sonny Liston with a smile." (Translation: Camacho needs his Ritalin.)
Well put,too.