People had hopes for Nogueira because..

[boxingcar]

let's get real for a moment...the only reason why people still trusted Nogueira was because of his previous fight against Randy. Then (according to his words)...he was injured during the mir fight.

But let's be honest...He is shot. He already was "different" at the time he fought Barnett. (even though he beat him in the rematch).. His career never was the same after fighting fedor X3... He had some solid performances after that but he was showing signs...

When he fought in the ufc , his first opponent was Heath Herring. (a guy he defeated twice in his prime a few years back)..In his third fight what happened ? Well he still won but at the same time , he almost got koed by a highkick and the only reason why he won was because Herring was stupid enough to give nogueira some time to recuperate.

After that kick , Nogueira was instantly floored and stunned..but herring didn't jump at the opportunity to finish him off.

Then , when Nogueira fought Sylvia...he was getting schooled. He was even slower than Sylvia , he was getting smashed...It wasn't as bad as his fight against crocop in his prime...But he was still losing the fight. Then , in a classic nogueira-style fight , he submitted sylvia...But truth be told...he was getting tooled prior to the sub.

and i hope none of you guys will tell me that he's always been like that..or tell me that it's how "he wins"...Because this would be a gross exaggeration.

He fought better opponents in his career. Superior grapplers , strikers..well rounded fighters & wasn't necessarily getting tooled before the victory.

Examples ?
Nogueira vs Schilt (top striker + pancrase champ)
Nogueira vs Werdum (adcc elite)
Nogueira vs Kharitonov (sambo fighter with solid striking)
Nogueira vs Nastula (noob in mma , but olympic gold medalist in judo)

He wasn't getting smashed in those fights...and those opponents were solid & legit tests. (and still are today...)

So ok , Nastula retired (& tested positive for roids)...Schilt went on to become a multiple champ in K1 , Werdum went on to defeat Brandon Vera , Aleks Emelianenko , Gabriel Gonzaga , Mike Kyle & just recently..Antonio Silva...Kharitonov had ups & downs in his career..but at his best..he definitely was a serious opponent for anyone.

Henderson (though smaller) is also better rounded than the likes of Sylvia , Mir , Cain , Randy etc...

Barnett (who also tested positive for roids)...Is one of the most well rounded HW in the sport...

Cain was a challenge...But was anyone honestly thinking he was going to beat Nog so fast ?

Yeah , i read this thread...Some of us did...
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

After all , it wasnt far fetched because Nog looked like shit in his last few fights... But then Randy vs Nogueira happened..(both showed a lot of heart..and it was one of the most entertaining fight to watch last year).

Jimmie had solid arguments (his reasons why Nog would beat a guy like Cain.)

I totally agree with this:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
or this
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

& mostly this one
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Personally ? Cain vs Nogueira told me more about Nogueira than it did about Cain. The only thing i'm sure (about cain) is that he's got a solid chin , stamina & great wrestling. I'm not gonna say it was a disaster waiting to happen. (it already happened vs Mir)...But was it a monumental surprise ? At this stage in his career ? Not really. Disappointing ? certainly.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I don't think that he's shot. That doesn't mean that he is in his prime... but he is not shot.

[liger05]

his shot no doubt about it

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Shot is way too overused. Shot fighters don't put on the sort of performance that Nog did over Couture. Even if NEITHER of them are at their best, which they aren't. Passed prime... yes... shot? Hell no, neither of them are shot fighters.

[thejokerswild]

Bit harsh on Nog, who knows if he is shot because Velasquez is just too good regardless.

[Hrak]

I said Nog was shot in the Mir fight and nothing has changed since. It's appropriate to call him shot because he talks slower, walks slower and fights like a shot fighter. In all of his UFC bouts, he has taken heavy punishment, there has been no dominating performance except for maybe Couture, but that is not saying much since Couture is a light heavy. Bottom line, your bound to be shot considering how much damage the guy has taken over his career.

[Dynamite Kid]

I said Nog was shot in the Mir fight and nothing has changed since. It's appropriate to call him shot because he talks slower, walks slower and fights like a shot fighter. In all of his UFC bouts, he has taken heavy punishment, there has been no dominating performance except for maybe Couture, but that is not saying much since Couture is a light heavy. Bottom line, your bound to be shot considering how much damage the guy has taken over his career.

Very well put and I totally agree.

[Mazallan]

He needs to retire.

[liger05]

I said Nog was shot in the Mir fight and nothing has changed since. It's appropriate to call him shot because he talks slower, walks slower and fights like a shot fighter. In all of his UFC bouts, he has taken heavy punishment, there has been no dominating performance except for maybe Couture, but that is not saying much since Couture is a light heavy. Bottom line, your bound to be shot considering how much damage the guy has taken over his career.

Well said.

After the Herring fight I was telling people his done. Seeing him struggle badly to beat Herring and then get ouclassed v Sylvia told you all you need to know.

The guy's knees are shot, his body is broken down. Remember that legendy fight v Sapp where he was tossed about like a doll. That was in 2002. Thats 8 years ago and since then his aged very very quickly.

[achillesthegreat]

The Couture fight flattered him. Couture is slow. Nog had the height, reach and power on him but they are slow and their punch resistance gone.

Nog told everyone he was ill for the Mir fight and it does make you wonder. When you put the Sylvia and Mir fights together along with a flattering performance against Couture and a destruction against Cain then you can see he is past his best.

If the UFC want to keep him fighting then they would be wise to put him in winnable fights like they have Couture.

[jimmie]

I wouldnt say hes totally shot but one of Nogueira's greatest attributes if you call it that is gone and thats his punch resistance hes been dropped in nearly every fight hes had starting with the 1st Barnett fight and nearly KTFO by Herring and was KTFO by Cain and Mir. Only so many shots a man can take standing and on the ground. Just like a nice car you have but you can only make 100 mile daily trips so often before it has 200,000 miles on it and its been ran into the ground.

[Polymath]

If Nog isn't shot noone is. The only guys more shot are guys like Kerr and Coleman who are in their 40's and absolutely dogshit shot. HIs reflexes have gone, his punch resistance is non-existant, his toughness and durability which was a big part of his game, is gone. I was optimistic at one point for him and claimed he wasn't totally shot (After the Mir fight), but watching objectively he's clearly running on fumes.

[achillesthegreat]

I see so many people going he is only 33. That has to be the dumbest thing to say in sports, let alone combat sports. Nog has a ring age of at least 44.

[Tuffnutz]

Tbh, when Nog fought Nastula, at what i believe was a career heavy weight for him, you could see that he was'nt the same.

[Tuffnutz]

I see so many people going he is only 33. That has to be the dumbest thing to say in sports, let alone combat sports. Nog has a ring age of at least 44.

This seems to be common with the newbs on Shitdog.

They don't seem to understand the difference between actual age and fighting age.

There's noone in the sport older than Big Nog.

The mans a fossil but I must admit that I was slightly fooled by the Randy fight. :patsch

[D-MAC]

I see so many people going he is only 33. That has to be the dumbest thing to say in sports, let alone combat sports. Nog has a ring age of at least 44.

You just need to look at him.

Facially he looks about 50.

[wolunt]

He's about the oldest 33 guy I've ever seen. Just too many hard, hard fights. Hell, just look at his fight with Sapp. Sapp is a joke of a MMA fighter and Nog took some major damage in that fight. Then look at lil Nog, he really seems to be getting better now.

[rusty nails]

he was three steps behind the whole fight. it was like watching a man trying to get into a game of jump rope.
he had no semblance of rythymn or coordination whatsoever and if dana lets him fight again he should be ashamed of himself.
im a nog fan but win lose or draw i never want to see him fight again.

[MaliSlamusrex]

He's not shot but fading, Nog could have connected with the shot he threw when he got KO'd he could have won....

But I have no idea why he tried to use his stand up.

[boxingcar]

You just need to look at him.

Facially he looks about 50.

seriously , Randy looked a bit younger next to him (even though he's much older than Nogueira)..

[chimba]

I agree with Boxingcar. If you dont think Nogs shot, you need a new pair of eyes.

[wolunt]

He can still compete in the UFC but maybe just not at the top level. I would love to see CC and Nog fight again.

[dublynflya]

let's get real for a moment...the only reason why people still trusted Nogueira was because of his previous fight against Randy. Then (according to his words)...he was injured during the mir fight.

But let's be honest...He is shot. He already was "different" at the time he fought Barnett. (even though he beat him in the rematch).. His career never was the same after fighting fedor X3... He had some solid performances after that but he was showing signs...

When he fought in the ufc , his first opponent was Heath Herring. (a guy he defeated twice in his prime a few years back)..In his third fight what happened ? Well he still won but at the same time , he almost got koed by a highkick and the only reason why he won was because Herring was stupid enough to give nogueira some time to recuperate.

After that kick , Nogueira was instantly floored and stunned..but herring didn't jump at the opportunity to finish him off.

Then , when Nogueira fought Sylvia...he was getting schooled. He was even slower than Sylvia , he was getting smashed...It wasn't as bad as his fight against crocop in his prime...But he was still losing the fight. Then , in a classic nogueira-style fight , he submitted sylvia...But truth be told...he was getting tooled prior to the sub.

and i hope none of you guys will tell me that he's always been like that..or tell me that it's how "he wins"...Because this would be a gross exaggeration.

He fought better opponents in his career. Superior grapplers , strikers..well rounded fighters & wasn't necessarily getting tooled before the victory.

Examples ?
Nogueira vs Schilt (top striker + pancrase champ)
Nogueira vs Werdum (adcc elite)
Nogueira vs Kharitonov (sambo fighter with solid striking)
Nogueira vs Nastula (noob in mma , but olympic gold medalist in judo)

He wasn't getting smashed in those fights...and those opponents were solid & legit tests. (and still are today...)

So ok , Nastula retired (& tested positive for roids)...Schilt went on to become a multiple champ in K1 , Werdum went on to defeat Brandon Vera , Aleks Emelianenko , Gabriel Gonzaga , Mike Kyle & just recently..Antonio Silva...Kharitonov had ups & downs in his career..but at his best..he definitely was a serious opponent for anyone.

Henderson (though smaller) is also better rounded than the likes of Sylvia , Mir , Cain , Randy etc...

Barnett (who also tested positive for roids)...Is one of the most well rounded HW in the sport...

Cain was a challenge...But was anyone honestly thinking he was going to beat Nog so fast ?

Yeah , i read this thread...Some of us did...
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

After all , it wasnt far fetched because Nog looked like shit in his last few fights... But then Randy vs Nogueira happened..(both showed a lot of heart..and it was one of the most entertaining fight to watch last year).

Jimmie had solid arguments (his reasons why Nog would beat a guy like Cain.)

I totally agree with this:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
or this
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

& mostly this one
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Personally ? Cain vs Nogueira told me more about Nogueira than it did about Cain. The only thing i'm sure (about cain) is that he's got a solid chin , stamina & great wrestling. I'm not gonna say it was a disaster waiting to happen. (it already happened vs Mir)...But was it a monumental surprise ? At this stage in his career ? Not really. Disappointing ? certainly.

Shit!! This is my post!!!:lol:

Cain was available at 5/6 here in Britain and I could not believe it!!!!

I doubled him up with Silva (Which was a close fight) but once Wanderlei had won I was "Counting my money"!! As a gambler (Especially betting on UFC) that can be fatal, but it just seemed so obvious that Velasquez would win!!

I have always had the up-most respect for a man who has brought nothing but class, skill, heart and dignity to the world of MMA but if Nogueira retired today I would be pleased!

[dublynflya]

He's about the oldest 33 guy I've ever seen. Just too many hard, hard fights. Hell, just look at his fight with Sapp. Sapp is a joke of a MMA fighter and Nog took some major damage in that fight. Then look at lil Nog, he really seems to be getting better now.

:good Agreed! On all points!!

[Bill Butcher]

let's get real for a moment...the only reason why people still trusted Nogueira was because of his previous fight against Randy. Then (according to his words)...he was injured during the mir fight.

But let's be honest...He is shot. He already was "different" at the time he fought Barnett. (even though he beat him in the rematch).. His career never was the same after fighting fedor X3... He had some solid performances after that but he was showing signs...

When he fought in the ufc , his first opponent was Heath Herring. (a guy he defeated twice in his prime a few years back)..In his third fight what happened ? Well he still won but at the same time , he almost got koed by a highkick and the only reason why he won was because Herring was stupid enough to give nogueira some time to recuperate.

After that kick , Nogueira was instantly floored and stunned..but herring didn't jump at the opportunity to finish him off.

Then , when Nogueira fought Sylvia...he was getting schooled. He was even slower than Sylvia , he was getting smashed...It wasn't as bad as his fight against crocop in his prime...But he was still losing the fight. Then , in a classic nogueira-style fight , he submitted sylvia...But truth be told...he was getting tooled prior to the sub.

and i hope none of you guys will tell me that he's always been like that..or tell me that it's how "he wins"...Because this would be a gross exaggeration.

He fought better opponents in his career. Superior grapplers , strikers..well rounded fighters & wasn't necessarily getting tooled before the victory.

Examples ?
Nogueira vs Schilt (top striker + pancrase champ)
Nogueira vs Werdum (adcc elite)
Nogueira vs Kharitonov (sambo fighter with solid striking)
Nogueira vs Nastula (noob in mma , but olympic gold medalist in judo)

He wasn't getting smashed in those fights...and those opponents were solid & legit tests. (and still are today...)

So ok , Nastula retired (& tested positive for roids)...Schilt went on to become a multiple champ in K1 , Werdum went on to defeat Brandon Vera , Aleks Emelianenko , Gabriel Gonzaga , Mike Kyle & just recently..Antonio Silva...Kharitonov had ups & downs in his career..but at his best..he definitely was a serious opponent for anyone.

Henderson (though smaller) is also better rounded than the likes of Sylvia , Mir , Cain , Randy etc...

Barnett (who also tested positive for roids)...Is one of the most well rounded HW in the sport...

Cain was a challenge...But was anyone honestly thinking he was going to beat Nog so fast ?

Yeah , i read this thread...Some of us did...
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

After all , it wasnt far fetched because Nog looked like shit in his last few fights... But then Randy vs Nogueira happened..(both showed a lot of heart..and it was one of the most entertaining fight to watch last year).

Jimmie had solid arguments (his reasons why Nog would beat a guy like Cain.)

I totally agree with this:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
or this
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

& mostly this one
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Personally ? Cain vs Nogueira told me more about Nogueira than it did about Cain. The only thing i'm sure (about cain) is that he's got a solid chin , stamina & great wrestling. I'm not gonna say it was a disaster waiting to happen. (it already happened vs Mir)...But was it a monumental surprise ? At this stage in his career ? Not really. Disappointing ? certainly.

Nog is my fav fighter but I have to say this post is true unfortunately, he should retire now, he`s a shadow of himself at his best.

[dublynflya]

he was three steps behind the whole fight. it was like watching a man trying to get into a game of jump rope.
he had no semblance of rythymn or coordination whatsoever and if dana lets him fight again he should be ashamed of himself.
im a nog fan but win lose or draw i never want to see him fight again.

It was sad to watch!!

[liger05]

V annoying when u see fans bring up a fighters actual age as some sort of benchmark on whether a fighter is 'shot'.

[achillesthegreat]

This seems to be common with the newbs on Shitdog.

They don't seem to understand the difference between actual age and fighting age.

There's noone in the sport older than Big Nog.

The mans a fossil but I must admit that I was slightly fooled by the Randy fight. :patsch

I thought he was on his way out after the Mir bout. So did everyone. The Randy fight flattered him cos Randy himself is nearly done but his clinch game will keep him around cos the clinch isn't based as much on youth as everything else.

Then everyone heard him say he was ill and if he was ill then it does make you think cos it's happened to fighters before i.e. Harrison vs Medina I and II.

So with a solid excuse for the Mir loss and a flattering win over Randy many were fooled. I was 50-50. Nog landing a big right hand, Cain being faster, Cain on top, Nog locking a sub etc

Cain impressed with the speed of the victory.

[Beebs]

"Shot" is an exaggeration; to me being "shot" means not being able to be competitive at the top level. While Nog is past his prime and almost certainly past being a serious threat in the championship picture, I think Nog is like Randy, a guy who can win fights against a lot of fighters who are relevant. For some perspective, Nog could still beat pretty much every HW in the world not in the UFC or StrikeForce, and quite a few of them as well.

We just notice more when an elite historical great slips because the comparison with their old selves is more noticeable and because the gap in quality between say a #1 fighter and a #8 fighter is so much more noticeable than say between a #8 and #16.

His future health is something I am a little more worried about than other fighters in his situation because he has taken so much abuse over the years and because he has sort of integrated his ability to take that abuse into his game; when that ability is diminished it is going to show a lot more.

[Blacc Jesus]

shot? no, but i do think nog is shopworn.

[dublynflya]

I see so many people going he is only 33. That has to be the dumbest thing to say in sports, let alone combat sports. Nog has a ring age of at least 44.

:good Well said!!

He's been fighting a long time, so the fact that he is "Feeling it" at such a (Relatively) young age should be of no surprise to anyone.

[dublynflya]

V annoying when u see fans bring up a fighters actual age as some sort of benchmark on whether a fighter is 'shot'.

Agreed!!

[dublynflya]

"Shot" is an exaggeration; to me being "shot" means not being able to be competitive at the top level. While Nog is past his prime and almost certainly past being a serious threat in the championship picture, I think Nog is like Randy, a guy who can win fights against a lot of fighters who are relevant. For some perspective, Nog could still beat pretty much every HW in the world not in the UFC or StrikeForce, and quite a few of them as well.

We just notice more when an elite historical great slips because the comparison with their old selves is more noticeable and because the gap in quality between say a #1 fighter and a #8 fighter is so much more noticeable than say between a #8 and #16.

His future health is something I am a little more worried about than other fighters in his situation because he has taken so much abuse over the years and because he has sort of integrated his ability to take that abuse into his game; when that ability is diminished it is going to show a lot more.

As usual Beebs, you make some good points. And, as you rightly say, his future health is something that should be of concern.

Whilst I appreciate your definition of "Shot" imo his performance against Cain merely confirmed my suspicion that the guy is "Shot".

His all-round movement was worryingly slow and he seemed reluctant to "Throw", classic symptoms of a "Shot" fighter.

I guess it could be that Velasquez is just that good!! Time will tell, but until I see evidence to the contrary I am sticking to my current opinion!!

It is almost painful to write this (Having been a huge admirer of this wonderful fighter for a long time) and it is certainly not my place to "Retire" a legend, but, based on his UFC performances, I hope his fighting career is at an end, sooner rather than later.