Jack Britton Discussion

[Russell]

The next day, The New York Times reported that Britton had engaged in 432 bouts over the course of 18 years, at an average of 24 per year. It also reported that this was the boxers' 20th battle together. (Britton objected to Lewis's use of a mouthpiece.)

Britton may potentially have the most fights of all time, along with unofficial reports of Sullivan and Wilde's multiple fights a day for long peroids of time.

I believe Zevic claimed 100 plus unreported fights he participated in.

As it stands, the man went 1,437 rounds and was only stopped once a few fights into his pro career, similar to the iron chinned duo of Saddler and Henry Armstrong. He was never stopped again, despite fighting some of the best punchers of all time, sometimes several times.

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I remember quite a while ago there was a discussion regarding the best chins of all time. Britton's came up, and that may be the only time I've ever heard it mentioned in that elite group. I believe Janitor was the one who mentioned it.

So, out of curiosity, why is Britton, a man who more then likely had over 400 fights... And whom fought from bantam to WW unscathed in the golden age of some of those divisions not mentioned more in the discussions regarding the toughest fighters of all time?

We hear about Ketchel, Sullivan, Jeffries, Tom Sharkey, McGovern... How tough they were. But they all had fractions of the fight, sometimes against inferior competition, then Britton faced. Any particular logic behind this? Is he simply forgotten to history?

[TheGreatA]

Britton was one of the great "old" fighters, although he isn't usually mentioned in that category. He fought well into his 40's and was still champ at 37 until surrendering his title to a younger and stronger opponent in Mickey Walker.

I think he's just an overlooked fighter, likely because no film seems to exist of his fights.

[burt bienstock]

What a shame,that Jack Britton is virtuallyforgotten today...Boxing fans just think about this amazing fact,in about THREE HUNDRED AND FORTY FOUR bouts or more,Jack Britton was stopped just ONCE...Britton fought bthe bhest welters of his time in a 26 year career,relying on great boxing skills and acumen,,,He couldn't punch hard,making almost all his fights going the full distance...As there are no availably films of him I envision,I much better version of the master boxer Billy Graham,of the 1940s who I saw fight often...

[Sweet Pea]

I don't see how you'd come to the conclusion that he was "much better" than Graham, if at all.

[SLAKKA]

Folks who saw both Graham and Britton were among the highest boxing IQ folk who ever lived. What do you suppose they thought?

[My2Sense]

I think he's just an overlooked fighter, likely because no film seems to exist of his fights.

This.


As it is, he's almost certainly an all time top 10 welter. Among his many achievements:
-He's generally credited with getting the better of his rivalry with Ted "Kid" Lewis, including a win by KO.
-He scored multiple "wins" (in no-decisions) over future MW champ Mike O'Dowd.
-He is credited with winning a no-decision fight with Mickey Walker prior to their title match.
-He was reportedly only stopped once in his long career (in his second recorded fight) despite fighting well into his 40s.

Perhaps his biggest achievement was fending off a title challenge from Benny Leonard. Leonard was at his peak then and the hot favorite to beat Britton (who was around 37 at the time). However, according to reports, Britton managed to keep Leonard at bay and frustrate him throughout the fight, and Leonard apparently became frustrated enough to get himself DQ'd. That was probably Britton's "last hurrah."

[McGrain]

I rate him top 5 at welter. I agree that out-boxing Leonard is his greatest achievment and I personally feel he doesn't get anything like the credit he deserves.

As for chins, I make him a persistant mention in those discussions.

[Flea Man]

A true ATG, though admittedly I'm still delving into the 'facts' of his resume.

[burt bienstock]

Sweat Pea, I saw Billy Graham often ,and he was a great boxer ,infighter and had an IRON chin..I never once saw him in trouble..Highly rated, but never seen as a threat to Ray Robinson...Jack Britton had three times as much bouts as Graham, was ALWAYS considered by all his peers as in the best FIVE welter of all time.Any fighter who had about 19 fights with the great Ted Kid Lewis, and more then held his own,was special...Incidentally watching the few clips of Lewis,leads me to believe that Lewis would always lick Billy Graham...One final thought an old Jack Britton at the age of 37,still lasted FIFTEEN tough rounds with the youg and great Mickey Walker...Quite a feat I say...Matter of fact Britton boxed SEVEN more years after that, never being stopped...Tough old bird I say....

[teeto]

He had the upper hand in possibly the greatest welterweight rivalry of all time. I usually remember him for that mostly, it's probably the footage thing that hurts him most, not good.

[sweet_scientist]

I wish there were some footage of him. Always have time for the master boxers of the past.

[GPater11093]

I did a Welterweight ranking once and I had him just above Kid lewis at about 9 with Lewis at 10.

However, I need to research more fo Britton.

[Russell]

As for chins, I make him a persistant mention in those discussions.

Just how good do you feel it was, from what we know?

[Duodenum]

The footage issue is massive. We have footage of Kid Lewis, Walker, Benny Leonard, Lew Tendler, Gans, Langford, Driscoll, the Gibbons brothers, Freddie Welsh and Packey McFarland, and at least some training footage of Greb. Britton is a mystery in this respect. The fact he didn't jump up in weight, but hung around 147 may also have an effect on his recognition.

Charter member of the IBHOF, as he should be. Walker's account of facing Britton left no impression on me, while his descriptions of taking on Greb were vivid and colorful. (I'd have to haul my copy of Mickey's book out of storage to review what he said about winning the WW Title.)

For me, his greatest win was the ninth round knockout of Lewis to regain the WW title when he was 34 years old. (At that time, the 25 year old Kid had been stopped once in 176 fights, when he was still a teenager.) Continuing until he was 45, Britton seems to have been the Archie Moore of his day. Jack did not begin professional boxing until he turned 20, and I've always believed a mature start facilitates a longer career, while an earlier start leads to earlier burn out. Lewis actually retired before Britton did.

Knocking out Lewis and dropping Walker suggests that he had more power than his knockout ratio would indicate. Boxwreck indicates that he fought 17 times in 1929, although my 1957 Ring Record Book only lists 13 outings. (Either way, that's a sick schedule for a man in his middle 40s to adhere to.) He certainly wasn't afraid to take on both Benny Leonard and Packey McFarland repeatedly.

[Russell]

Duodenum, would you agree that fighting to that age, successfully on a elite level, was unheard of, unprecedented at that time?

Johnson certainly fought to a older age then Britton but nearly as successful.

[teeto]

The footage issue is massive. We have footage of Kid Lewis, Walker, Benny Leonard, Lew Tendler, Gans, Langford, Driscoll, the Gibbons brothers, Freddie Welsh and Packey McFarland, and at least some training footage of Greb. Britton is a mystery in this respect. The fact he didn't jump up in weight, but hung around 147 may also have an effect on his recognition.

Charter member of the IBHOF, as he should be. Walker's account of facing Britton left no impression on me, while his descriptions of taking on Greb were vivid and colorful. (I'd have to haul my copy of Mickey's book out of storage to review what he said about winning the WW Title.)

For me, his greatest win was the ninth round knockout of Lewis to regain the WW title when he was 34 years old. (At that time, the 25 year old Kid had been stopped once in 176 fights, when he was still a teenager.) Continuing until he was 45, Britton seems to have been the Archie Moore of his day. Jack did not begin professional boxing until he turned 20, and I've always believed a mature start facilitates a longer career, while an earlier start leads to earlier burn out. Lewis actually retired before Britton did.

Knocking out Lewis and dropping Walker suggests that he had more power than his knockout ratio would indicate. Boxwreck indicates that he fought 17 times in 1929, although my 1957 Ring Record Book only lists 13 outings. (Either way, that's a sick schedule for a man in his middle 40s to adhere to.) He certainly wasn't afraid to take on both Benny Leonard and Packey McFarland repeatedly.
Very nice post.

[Russell]

How is the lack of footage so damning but not to Greb?

Greb is a nearly consensus top five ATG.

[teeto]

How is the lack of footage so damning but not to Greb?

Greb is a nearly consensus top five ATG.
Scratch nearly

[SLAKKA]

How is the lack of footage so damning but not to Greb?

Greb is a nearly consensus top five ATG.
Because of the footage of Greb opponents, all of them trounced, as well as his obvious superiority to even ATG Britton.

[Stonehands89]

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[burt bienstock]

Stone hand ,thanks you for posting a picture of a young great Jack Britton...What a record,just ponder this in 344 recorded bouts,with smaller gloves,sans mouthpiece,Britton was stopped just ONCE...Amazing ...He is the Judge Crater of boxing....

[Duodenum]

Duodenum, would you agree that fighting to that age, successfully on a elite level, was unheard of, unprecedented at that time?

Johnson certainly fought to a older age then Britton but not nearly as successful.From what I can determine as yet, this would appear to be the case. Fleischer had a list of 20 year competitors in his 1957 Ring Encyclopedia. At first glance, Britton does stand out among those who began competing more than a century ago.

What's freakish to me though is the level of activity he maintained at an advanced age, along with the fact he didn't get stopped after the week he turned 21. He stuck around 147 pounds even after Walker dethroned him, a situation where contemporaries like Mickey frequently leapfrogged in weight to extend their careers against larger and generally slower competition. So far as I can determine, everybody who did decision him after 1905 had a winning record (including newspaper verdicts). With as many matches as he was performing in at that age, one would expect letdowns against an occasional habitual loser, but this never seems to have happened with him.

From what I gather, Britton remained a box office attraction during his post title years, and knowledgeable fight going fans apparently had enormous respect and affection for him. I imagine them cheering him as the MSG audience cheered Archer against Griffith, as the jabs streamed out to pepper his opponent.

[SLAKKA]

Sorry gang but of you peruse proquest historical African american paps you get a pretty clear picture of Britton getting very hard of hearing whenever this chaps name was mentioned.

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[Russell]

Duodenum, would you agree that fighting to that age, successfully on a elite level, was unheard of, unprecedented at that time?

Johnson certainly fought to a older age then Britton but nearly as successful.

Nothin'? :tired

[Duodenum]

Nothin'? :tiredBack up to post #22.;)

[Duodenum]

How is the lack of footage so damning but not to Greb?

Greb is a nearly consensus top five ATG.Because we can see how dominant Tunney is on film. Harry handed him the one official loss on his record. Grantland Rice, William Muldoon, Regis Welsh and other ringside observers believed Greb won their second match as well. There is no dispute that this second 15 rounder was closely contested. Take a look at Tunney against Carpentier, Gibbons, Dempsey 2X and Heeney, then consider what kind of competitor Greb was to give him hell on multiple occasions. Some ringside reports also had Harry winning nine of the ten rounds in their fourth meeting. Gene had the best of their third matchup, yet Harry had enough left after Tunney's concentrated body attack to strongly win round 15 according to all accounts. Gene only really dominated their final contest. (Yet three weeks after that beating, Greb got the measure of southpaw Johnny Wilson yet again.)

Beyond that, there also exists (in live sound, no less) footage of a peak Walker. Even Mickey did not dispute that the 31 year old Greb won their 1925 showdown in a situation where observers clearly noted that Harry was in decline, with his legs no longer being what they once had been. (The following month, Greb introduced young whippersnapper Maxie Rosenbloom to big time boxing, flooring and beating the snot out of the poor kid, nearly knocking him out.)

We can see what Loughran was like on film. After Greb lifted the American Light Heavyweight Title from Gene, familiar foe Loughran was the first challenger. Harry beat him clearly over 15 rounds in the most important match of their rivalry. Loughran was young, but he was also a prodigy who had already copped a newspaper draw with Tunney and newspaper win over McTigue.

1922 was a hell of a year for Greb, who beat another Tommy, Gibbons, more decisively over 15 rounds than he would later beat Tunney. (Keep in mind that Gene wanted no part of Gibbons at that stage of his career.)

Harry had already gotten the best of Battling Levinski, Miske and Brennan. Britton was never going to be able to compete with the bewildering array of scalps Greb collected over his career. But for his part, Greb was never going to be able to compete with Jack for longevity either, even with two good eyes, if his legs were already showing signs of slowing at 31.

[burt bienstock]

Duodenum,fine piece on Greb and Jack Britton...Greb after his disputed loss to Tiger Flowers in 1926,underwent anoperation to repair a breathing problem,caused by his latest car accident[one of many],and boxing, died after the operation.His peak long passed,and with his remaining eye,fading,I doubt that if he survived the operation,he would have ever returned to the ring...His legendary leg speed,after 300 bouts, long gone...Jack Britton on the other hand had even more fights then Greb,, fought til the age of thirty seven,still competitive, and still never being ko'd since his youth...I think Greb because of his frantic windmill style, expended so much more ENERGY,inone fight then Britton.truly a master boxer,expended in five bouts...Thus Britton's boxing full tilt to the age of thirty seven...In a twist of fate ...One year later Greb's great rival ,Tiger Flowers,also died in a hospital after an operation to remove scar tissue around the eyes...Both great warriors Greb and Flowers were thirty two years of age...Tragic...

[Russell]

Because we can see how dominant Tunney is on film. Harry handed him the one official loss on his record. Grantland Rice, William Muldoon, Regis Welsh and other ringside observers believed Greb won their second match as well. There is no dispute that this second 15 rounder was closely contested. Take a look at Tunney against Carpentier, Gibbons, Dempsey 2X and Heeney, then consider what kind of competitor Greb was to give him hell on multiple occasions. Some ringside reports also had Harry winning nine of the ten rounds in their fourth meeting. Gene had the best of their third matchup, yet Harry had enough left after Tunney's concentrated body attack to strongly win round 15 according to all accounts. Gene only really dominated their final contest. (Yet three weeks after that beating, Greb got the measure of southpaw Johnny Wilson yet again.)



Great stuff.

In your opinion whats the score with that series? Do you feel Greb should be 4-1 against the man?

[Russell]

Duodenum,fine piece on Greb and Jack Britton...Greb after his disputed loss to Tiger Flowers in 1926,underwent anoperation to repair a breathing problem,caused by his latest car accident[one of many],and boxing, died after the operation.His peak long passed,and with his remaining eye,fading,I doubt that if he survived the operation,he would have ever returned to the ring...His legendary leg speed,after 300 bouts, long gone...Jack Britton on the other hand had even more fights then Greb,, fought til the age of thirty seven,still competitive, and still never being ko'd since his youth...I think Greb because of his frantic windmill style, expended so much more ENERGY,inone fight then Britton.truly a master boxer,expended in five bouts...Thus Britton's boxing full tilt to the age of thirty seven...In a twist of fate ...One year later Greb's great rival ,Tiger Flowers,also died in a hospital after an operation to remove scar tissue around the eyes...Both great warriors Greb and Flowers were thirty two years of age...Tragic...

Not trying to be rude, Burt, but you might want to split your posts into paragraphs... The walls of text can be hard on the eyes, much as I love your posts and new presence on the boards.

[burt bienstock]

Russell.I'll try better.I never typed before,and I'm just getting the hang of the internet... I just discovered this ESB forum,and like a prelim fighter,typing with one finger learning the trade....Albeit a little late for a grizzled veteran...B.B.

[Duodenum]

Great stuff.

In your opinion whats the score with that series? Do you feel Greb should be 4-1 against the man?This is where it's really a damned shame we haven't got a combination of footage and radio recordings to go on.

While everybody else is vexed and frustrated by the lack of Greb on film, I'm even more perplexed by the absence of archival audio recordings, since Harry's peak coincided with the establishment of commercial radio in his hometown. Not only should we be able to see him competing, quite possibly we should actually be familiar with the very sound of his voice in radio interviews!

Imagine: Greb-Tunney I was both filmed and broadcast over the airwaves by Pittsburgh radio pioneer KDKA. A synchronization of the footage and recorded blow by blow commentary would be boxing's ultimate Holy Grail in my mind, easily surpassing even Greb-Walker. (I have a recording of KDKA's November 2, 1920 announcement of the Presidential election returns on vinyl, and the quality is excellent.) Is it too much to think that the broadcast of at least some of his matches in Pittsburgh were recorded on KDKA?

We seem to have little choice aside from deferring to the consensus of ringside reports. From what I gather, Greb could well be given their second match, while there seems little debate that Gene took the third.

I'll defer to newspaper consensus that their fourth battle in Cleveland was a standstill. While no footage of this newspaper draw has surfaced, Tunney-Carpentier took place less than two months earlier. We can see from that film that it was no embryonic, developmental Gene who warred with Harry in Cleveland. Tunney hit Carp so frequently upside the head that the cartilage in both the Orchid Man's ears had broken down. (If Tunney-Carpentier was big enough to be filmed, then how the hell was Greb-Tunney IV in Cleveland not? The mind boggles.)

That would make Harry 2-2-1 against Tunney, though a case for 3-2 could be made if one accepts the United News Wire report that Greb took nine of ten from a post Carpentier Gene. (Looking at Tunney take Georges apart makes the idea of Harry subsequently doing this to Gene more and more frightening.)

LaMotta wrote that while his official record against a prime SSR was 1-5, in his own mind they came out even in these battles. Where Greb and Tunney are concerned, this seems far more objectively factual (especially since Gene was never able to stop Harry).

[Duodenum]

In a twist of fate ...One year later Greb's great rival ,Tiger Flowers,also died in a hospital after an operation to remove scar tissue around the eyes...Both great warriors Greb and Flowers were thirty two years of age...Tragic...And reportedly, when Flowers was being wheeled into his fatal operation, he stopped and asked, "Say, isn't this where Harry Greb died?" The doctor confirmed this, but reassured him, "You're tougher than he was Tiger. You proved that!" It was the very same doctor under whose hands Greb passed away. Death was tougher than both of them.

[Flea Man]

And reportedly, when Flowers was being wheeled into his fatal operation, he stopped and asked, "Say, isn't this where Harry Greb died?" The doctor confirmed this, but reassured him, "You're tougher than he was Tiger. You proved that!" It was the very same doctor under whose hands Greb passed away. Death was tougher than both of them.

Wow.

Never knew that. Thanks to you and Burt:good

[Duodenum]

Russell. I'll try better. I never typed before, and I'm just getting the hang of the internet... I just discovered this ESB forum, and like a prelim fighter, typing with one finger learning the trade....Albeit a little late for a grizzled veteran...B.B.Burt, rest assured you're not alone. This was the first, and remains the only internet forum I've ever joined and posted to, and my skills are barely any better (if indeed at all). My initial concern regarding style was to make sure I broke them down into readable paragraphs before submission. (I use the "Preview Posts" feature liberally before I click "Submit Reply" to see how readable they are.)

Like Russ, I find myself looking forward to your contributions a great deal. As far as I'm concerned, you're the runaway winner as best new poster in ESB Classic at this early stage of the new decade. I'd hate for anybody to pass up your offerings and insights because of something as trivial as a solid block of words.

[burt bienstock]

Duodenum,Thanks for your kind words..I'll jab, before throwing a right cross...I have so so many years of pent up boxing lore to expunge that ,I have typed too hastily, with ONE finger I might add...Thanks again Duo....

[Russell]

This is where it's really a damned shame we haven't got a combination of footage and radio recordings to go on.

While everybody else is vexed and frustrated by the lack of Greb on film, I'm even more perplexed by the absence of archival audio recordings, since Harry's peak coincided with the establishment of commercial radio in his hometown. Not only should we be able to see him competing, quite possibly we should actually be familiar with the very sound of his voice in radio interviews!

Imagine: Greb-Tunney I was both filmed and broadcast over the airwaves by Pittsburgh radio pioneer KDKA. A synchronization of the footage and recorded blow by blow commentary would be boxing's ultimate Holy Grail in my mind, easily surpassing even Greb-Walker. (I have a recording of KDKA's November 2, 1920 announcement of the Presidential election returns on vinyl, and the quality is excellent.) Is it too much to think that the broadcast of at least some of his matches in Pittsburgh were recorded on KDKA?

We seem to have little choice aside from deferring to the consensus of ringside reports. From what I gather, Greb could well be given their second match, while there seems little debate that Gene took the third.

I'll defer to newspaper consensus that their fourth battle in Cleveland was a standstill. While no footage of this newspaper draw has surfaced, Tunney-Carpentier took place less than two months earlier. We can see from that film that it was no embryonic, developmental Gene who warred with Harry in Cleveland. Tunney hit Carp so frequently upside the head that the cartilage in both the Orchid Man's ears had broken down. (If Tunney-Carpentier was big enough to be filmed, then how the hell was Greb-Tunney IV in Cleveland not? The mind boggles.)

That would make Harry 2-2-1 against Tunney, though a case for 3-2 could be made if one accepts the United News Wire report that Greb took nine of ten from a post Carpentier Gene. (Looking at Tunney take Georges apart makes the idea of Harry subsequently doing this to Gene more and more frightening.)

LaMotta wrote that while his official record against a prime SSR was 1-5, in his own mind they came out even in these battles. Where Greb and Tunney are concerned, this seems far more objectively factual (especially since Gene was never able to stop Harry).

I just had a strange movie twist thought that maybe Harry Greb never existed. :lol:

Russell.I'll try better.I never typed before,and I'm just getting the hang of the internet... I just discovered this ESB forum,and like a prelim fighter,typing with one finger learning the trade....Albeit a little late for a grizzled veteran...B.B.

I'm sorry if that came off the wrong way Burt.

[Meast]

I could sit here and read Duodenum and Burt's posts all day long!

Some great stories guys.

[burt bienstock]

The middleweight division is called the"greatest division " of boxing, but it is also the most tragic also...Look at all the tragic ends,these champs had....
Original Jack Dempsey....died consumption
Stanley Ketchel....shot and killed 1910
Billy Papke....comitted suicide
Harry Greb....died after eye and nose operation,age 32
Tiger Flowers....died also after eye operation 1 year later age 32
Battling Siki....shot and killed in Hells Kitchen age 30's
Marcel Cerdan[who I saw]MSG] killed in plane crash....age 33
Carlos Monzon.... killed in car crash...age 53
Les Darcy....sure HOF Australian great....died infection age 22
Yes,a great, but tragic division 160-175 pounds.....

[Duodenum]

The middleweight division is called the"greatest division " of boxing, but it is also the most tragic also...Look at all the tragic ends,these champs had....
Original Jack Dempsey....died consumption
Stanley Ketchel....shot and killed 1910
Billy Papke....comitted suicide
Harry Greb....died after eye and nose operation,age 32
Tiger Flowers....died also after eye operation 1 year later age 32
Battling Siki....shot and killed in Hells Kitchen age 30's
Marcel Cerdan[who I saw]MSG] killed in plane crash....age 33
Carlos Monzon.... killed in car crash...age 53
Les Darcy....sure HOF Australian great....died infection age 22
Yes,a great, but tragic division 160-175 pounds.....And one could perhaps add the name of Bob Fitzsimmons to the list, having lost the money he made, having to perform until just three years before his death, and dying of pneumonia at age 54.

Monzon and Hagler are sometimes criticized for never having moved up in weight. As you pointed out though, 160 has been described as the greatest division in boxing, and it was a rare undisputed title when Carlos and Marv held it. (From 1978 to 1987, it was largely the ONLY undisputed championship in the sport, a status quashed after SRL-Hagler.)

[burt bienstock]

Duodenum, speakink old Bob Fitzimmons, when I was 8 or 9 years old,an oldtime fighter, my father knew,would sing a song about Bob Fitzimmons,the old boxer heard when HE was a boy....He sang these words to the tune of "TIT WILLOW", from THE MiKADO,by GILBERT and SULLIVAN...Here goes....."On the shores of dear Bergen,stands honest old FitZ,...With his Wallop...His Wallop...His Wallop........Forgot the rest of the lyrics,but never forgot that OLD boxer singing, a song from the 1910 era...Probably Fitzimmons was training for a bout in Bergen, New Jersey...I never forgot him singing that ditty about the great Ruby Robert so long ago.......