10 greatest mexican fighters of all time?

[wordisbond]

Where do Morales, Barrera, Marquez and Chavez rank in your greatest Mexican fighters of all time? Please list your top 10.

[texican]

1:Ricardo Lopez Nava
2:Julio Cesar Chavez
3:Ruben Olivares
4:Juan Manuel Marquez
5:Salvador Sanchez
6:Eric Morales
7:Marco Antonio Barrera
8:Carlos Zarate
9:Guadalupe Pintor
10:Jose Cuevas
Not too sure about the last 2 but these are pretty much my favorite 10

[Addie]

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Salvador Sachez
3. Ruben Olivares
4. Vicente Saldivar
5. Marco Antonio Barrera
6. Erik Morales
7. Miguel Canto
8. Carlos Zarate
9. Ricardo Lopez
0. Kid Azteca

[PunchOut]

1. Julio Cesar Chavez

2. Salvador Sachez
3. Ruben Olivares




4. Miguel Canto
5. Vicente Saldivar
6. Erik Morales
7. Juan Manuel Marquez
8. Carlos Zarate
9. Ricardo Lopez
0. Marco Antonio Barrera

[anarci]

1.Julio Cesar Chavez
2.Salvador Sanchez
3.Ricardo Lopez
4.Ruben Olivares
5.Marco A Barrera
6.Erik Morales
7.Juan M Marquez-Carlos Zarate
9.Vicente Saldivar
10.Miguel Canto
11.Baby Arizmendi
12.Kid Azteca Chango Cassanova
I was gonna to a top 20 but it would take me a while to seperate them as lot of them are close.
Honorable Mention in no particular order
Lupe Pintor,Gilberto Roman,Jose L Castillo,Pipino Cuevas,Chiquita Gonzalez
Carlos Palomino,Israel Vasquez,Rafeal Marquez,Rafeal Herrera,
Jose L Ramirez,Chucho Castilllo,Danel Zarragoza and alot more on Par with ^ guys

[ricardinho]

J.C. Chavez
Salvador Sanchez
Ricardo Lopez
Juan Manuel Marquez
Marco Antonio Barrera
Erik Morales
Ruben Olivares
Miguel Canto
Humberto Gonzalez
Kid Azteca

Just want to add Chango Cassanova to the list he was very popular in Mexico

[Boilermaker]

Well, in 1923, Sam Langford won and defended the Mexican heavyweight championship 6 times. If this qualifies him as a mexican, then i think he is probably the best Mexican fighter ever, by quite a margin.

[kidargentine]

1. Ruben Olivares
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. Salvador Sanchez
4. Carlos Zarate
5. Manuel Ortiz (Well Mexican American)
6. Ricardo Lopez
7. Miguel Canto
8. Vicente Saldivar
9. Marco Antonio Barrera
10. Erik Morales

[jowcol]

Rafeal Herrera


Glad you recognized him. I saw him late-60's, early 70's on TV and I have his KO over Olivares on tape. What a boxer-puncher! His only drawback was his inconsistency. When he was motivated and on his game, he couldn't be touched!
My late friend and I used to call Rafeal the master of the triple left hook...:bbb

[burt bienstock]

Three Mexican fighters who must be in the mix
Aurelio Herrara,turn of the 1900s was said to be the hardest puning lightweight by Terry McGovern,Abe Attel.hated training though
Juan Zurita,who I saw
Baby Arizmendi,who gave a peak Henry Armstrong all Henry could handle

[essexboy]

1. Salvador Sanchez
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. Ruben Olivares
4. Vicente Saldivar
5. Carlos Zarate
6. Miguel Canto
7. Marco Antonio Barrera
8. Erik Morales
9. Baby Arizmendi
10. Kid Azteca

[anarci]

Well, in 1923, Sam Langford won and defended the Mexican heavyweight championship 6 times. If this qualifies him as a mexican, then i think he is probably the best Mexican fighter ever, by quite a margin.:patschGTFOH STUPID ASS!

[Flea Man]

:patschGTFOH STUPID ASS!

True though, he did win it:lol:

[anarci]

1. Ruben Olivares
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. Salvador Sanchez
4. Carlos Zarate
5. Manuel Ortiz (Well Mexican American)
6. Ricardo Lopez
7. Miguel Canto
8. Vicente Saldivar
9. Marco Antonio Barrera
10. Erik Morales
Well if you wanna consider Ortiz then you should throw Delahoya in there,and Maybe throw Duran in there his Dad was Mexican/American.

[anarci]

True though, he did win it:lol: Well in that case Duran has mexican blood and i rate him over Langford, and throw Napoloes in there he became a mexican citizen and adopted son. How about Chalky Wright he was born in Mexico, Sugar Ramos too

[anarci]

Glad you recognized him. I saw him late-60's, early 70's on TV and I have his KO over Olivares on tape. What a boxer-puncher! His only drawback was his inconsistency. When he was motivated and on his game, he couldn't be touched!
My late friend and I used to call Rafeal the master of the triple left hook...:bbb :yep Yes a forgotten fighter and underrated

[anarci]

Three Mexican fighters who must be in the mix
Aurelio Herrara,turn of the 1900s was said to be the hardest puning lightweight by Terry McGovern,Abe Attel.hated training though
Juan Zurita,who I saw
Baby Arizmendi,who gave a peak Henry Armstrong all Henry could handle

Arizmendi beat Armstrong! and gave him hell in their other fights. Possibly Armstrongs toughest foe.

I forgot to mention Enrique Bolanos who would have been champ. He fought the Great IKe Williams to a split decision in a bid for the title. Williams beat him the other 2 times. There are quite a few guy that are all on par after the top 13 or 14 theres like another 15 guys that you could make a case for putting in the top 20.

[Sweet Pea]

I'd have Arizmendi in the middle somewhere (probably around #6), slightly above both Barrera and Morales, with either Kid Azteca or Juan Zurita rounding out the top 10. Herrera and Castillo would just miss the cut as well.

The top 5 would have to be Chavez, Saldivar, Olivares, Sanchez, and Canto, with Zarate just behind.

On another note, has anyone seen Castillo's bout with Enrique Pinder? I'd love to see that one. Both guys were beautifully smooth stylists so I'd imagine a very close, classy technical matchup.

[Zopilote]

Julio Cesar Chavez
Ruben Olivares
Salvador Sanchez
Vicente Saldivar
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera
Ricardo Lopez
Carlos Zarate
Miguel Canto
Juan Manuel Marquez

By the way, what do you guys think of Raul "Raton" Macias and Jose Becerra??? I ask this because i hardly see anyone mention these 2...

[anarci]

I'd have Arizmendi in the middle somewhere (probably around #6), slightly above both Barrera and Morales, with either Kid Azteca or Juan Zurita rounding out the top 10. Herrera and Castillo would just miss the cut as well.

The top 5 would have to be Chavez, Saldivar, Olivares, Sanchez, and Canto, with Zarate just behind.

On another note, has anyone seen Castillo's bout with Enrique Pinder? I'd love to see that one. Both guys were beautifully smooth stylists so I'd imagine a very close, classy technical matchup.You would have Zurita above Ricardo Lopez and Marquez:huh I think Bolanos was better than Zurita and more highly regarded by Mexican fans.

[anarci]

Julio Cesar Chavez
Ruben Olivares
Salvador Sanchez
Vicente Saldivar
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera
Ricardo Lopez
Carlos Zarate
Miguel Canto
Juan Manuel Marquez

By the way, what do you guys think of Raul "Raton" Macias and Jose Becerra??? I ask this because i hardly see anyone mention these 2...Those were 2 of the guys i didnt mention that i thought were on par with the Honarable mentions i listed on the other page. Like i said earlier after the top 13 or 14 there a whooooooooole lot of guys with only hairs splitting them. If i put a top 30 list you could argue all day about after 15 and rearange the list any way you want without much argument.

[burt bienstock]

I forgot Chalky Wright ,Great featherweight puncher who was old[30] by the time he lost to the great prime Willie Pep in 1942..I believe that a young uncuffed Chalky Wright would lick Sandy Saddler .Wright was a murderous puncher,and Saddler ,tough but not difficult to hit...Pick em...

[Flea Man]

Well in that case Duran has mexican blood and i rate him over Langford, and throw Napoloes in there he became a mexican citizen and adopted son. How about Chalky Wright he was born in Mexico, Sugar Ramos too

I was obviously kiddin.

[lora]

Mexico has some great depth.I think i actually prefer some of the more unsung early-'70s bantams like Castillo and Herrera to Marquez or Morales, though i'll probably be in the minority there.

[Addie]

Mexico has some great depth.I think i actually prefer some of the more unsung early-'70s bantams like Castillo and Herrera to Marquez or Morales, though i'll probably be in the minority there.

:lol: Yeah...right.

Morales and Barrera shall have to wait a further 15 years until they get their proper due.

[anarci]

:lol: Yeah...right.

Morales and Barrera shall have to wait a further 15 years until they get their proper due. Unlike many other fans, i give them recent greats their due already. I have them 5 and 6 but i dont see them going any higher than that. Maybe lower if someother Mexican fighter whos greater comes along.

[Addie]

Unlike many other fans, i give them recent greats their due already. I have them 5 and 6 but i dont see them going any higher than that. Maybe lower if someother Mexican fighter whos greater comes along.

I was referring to lists with Lopez and Marquez above them really, if not Zarate.

[Sweet Pea]

You would have Zurita above Ricardo Lopez and Marquez:huh I think Bolanos was better than Zurita and more highly regarded by Mexican fans.That's cool. When dealing with fighters limited in footage I go mainly by accomplishments, and Zurita beat the better fighters, in my opinion, than Bolanos. Lopez is difficult to rate conclusively for me, though a case could obviously be made that he belongs in the top 10. Marquez would rank alongside the likes of Herrera and Castillo, being as he was the more accomplished fighter, but lesser skilled at his best than those two.

[sweet_scientist]

After the top 5 or so, there's a heap of guys that could stake a claim for a top 10 spot.

Consider only a guy like Jose Medel, who hasn't been mentioned here, who has wins over the likes of Fighting Harada, Walter McGowan, Mitsunori Seki, Eloy Sanchez, Sadao Yaoita, Jesus Pimentel, Manny Elias, Jose Tolulco Lopez, Herman Marques, johnny Sarduy, Ignacio Pina, Edmundo Esparza, a draw against Chucho Castillo, a majority decision loss to Lionel Rose and he gave Jofre ALL he could handle in their first fight.

He has a heap of losses too of course but as far as wins goes, there isn't ten Mexicans with better.

[lora]

:lol: Yeah...right.

Morales and Barrera shall have to wait a further 15 years until they get their proper due.


Most people on here love them, certainly in comparison to someone like Chucho castillo.

[Addie]

Most people on here love them, certainly in comparison to someone like Chucho castillo.

Do you feel that's justified?

[lora]

Sure.It doesn't piss me off or anything, if that's what you mean.

I only mention the likes of Castillo and Herrera, who i think were a bit better than Marquez, Morales and about on par with Marco, to demonstrate the depth Mexico has.Like sweet siad, Jose Medel is someone else that could be mentioned.

Or Gilberto Roman, he rarely seems to get his due at all these days.

[Addie]

Sure.It doesn't piss me off or anything, if that's what you mean.

I only mention the likes of Castillo and Herrera, who i think were a bit better than Marquez, Morales and about on par with Marco, to demonstrate the depth Mexico has.Like sweet siad, Jose Medel is someone else that could be mentioned.

Or Gilberto Roman, he rarely seems to get his due at all these days.

I have 8-9 Roman fights on DVD and I don't believe he's as good as Barrera and Morales. I imagine I'd come away with the same feeling about Castillo who's record isn't terribly impressive to me. To watch the man at his best, I'd have to watch what fight?

[lora]

He's certainly better than Marquez though.I think he'd beat Morales too.

The best easily available castillo fights are Rose and the first two Olivares fights.

[Addie]

He's certainly better than Marquez though.I think he'd beat Morales too.

The best easily available castillo fights are Rose and the first two Olivares fights.

I'm not of the opinion that Marquez proved himself to be on the other two modern Mexicans levels anyway so I'm not prepared to argue with you.

[Flea Man]

I think Marquez is as proven as Barrera, mainly because he's better technically to make up for his sub-par resume. If that makes sense.

[Addie]

I think Marquez is as proven as Barrera mainly because he's better technically to make up for his sub-par resume. If that makes sense.

:lol:

[Flea Man]

:lol:

:patsch I meant Morales:good

You know where I rank Barrera; Marquez and Morales wouldn't make my top 100 I don't reckon.

[Addie]

:patsch I meant Morales:good

You know where I rank Barrera; Marquez and Morales wouldn't make my top 100 I don't reckon.

Well that makes it a little bit better but I still think both Barrera and Morales are more proven than Marquez. I apologize for laughing.

[Flea Man]

Well that makes it a little bit better but I still think both Barrera and Morales are more proven than Marquez. I apologize for laughing.

Nah that's alright, I set myself up :lol:

We've been over this too many times, lets not do it again mate:good

[Addie]

Let's see your list, brother.

[natonic]

I like to go off the top of my head with these rather than rack my brain over it. But I think my top 5 or so is pretty solid:

Salvador Sanchez (One of the best fighters I've ever seen Mexican, Martian, or otherwise)
Julio Cesar Chavez
Ruben Olivares
Vicente Sladivar
Miguel Canto
Carlos Zarate
Marco Antonio Barerra
Ricardo Lopez
Juan Manuel Marquez
Erik Morales

note: Jose Napoles is #1 or #2 for me but I'm calling him Cuban.

[ricardinho]

:lol: Yeah...right.

Morales and Barrera shall have to wait a further 15 years until they get their proper due.

I see them as better than everyone except Chavez, Sanchez, Lopez, and Marquez... Morales i had barely ahead of Barrera but I still want to rank him higher McKinney and Hamed are pretty impressive wins. Barrera in his last fight with Pac gave it all he could and still did better than Hatton and Cotto. I think I need to see some of Barreras other fights after the Hamed fight and before the first Pac fight...

Barrera was a force to be reckoned with in his prime...

Morales would have done better and probably have had a longer prime had he used a nutritionist and trainer earlier in his career. it was sad seeing him fight weight drained.

[GPater11093]

Sure.It doesn't piss me off or anything, if that's what you mean.

I only mention the likes of Castillo and Herrera, who i think were a bit better than Marquez, Morales and about on par with Marco, to demonstrate the depth Mexico has.Like sweet siad, Jose Medel is someone else that could be mentioned.

Or Gilberto Roman, he rarely seems to get his due at all these days.

I'm a big Roman fan. Love his boxer-puncher style but he was a great mover aswell and had decent reflexes. Just would find it hard to squeeze him into a top 10 of Mexicans.

[anarci]

:patsch I meant Morales:good

You know where I rank Barrera; Marquez and Morales wouldn't make my top 100 I don't reckon. No way is there 100 fighters better than Marquez and Morales:nono
Earlier you said you though Marquez was on par with Barrera,aside from resumes, and i agree with that. Marquez was about on par with both those guys, they just have slightly better resumes which puts them over him. Marquez is underrated so far on this thread.
Morales top 60 now lower than 65
Marquez no lower than 80
Barrera definitley to60

[kidargentine]

Well if you wanna consider Ortiz then you should throw Delahoya in there,and Maybe throw Duran in there his Dad was Mexican/American.

fair enough...heres my new list:

1. Ruben Olivares
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. Salvador Sanchez
4. Carlos Zarate
5. Miguel Canto
6. Ricardo Lopez
7. Vicente Saldivar
8. Kid Azteca
9. Marco Antonio Barrera
10. Erik Morales

[anarci]

That's cool. When dealing with fighters limited in footage I go mainly by accomplishments, and Zurita beat the better fighters, in my opinion, than Bolanos. Lopez is difficult to rate conclusively for me, though a case could obviously be made that he belongs in the top 10. Marquez would rank alongside the likes of Herrera and Castillo, being as he was the more accomplished fighter, but lesser skilled at his best than those two.Actually there resumes are pretty equal although Zurita got a world title, Bolanos would have too but unfortunetly he had one of the greatest Lw ever in his way Ike Williams, and Bolanos still managed to fight him to a split decision loss Bolanos went 3-1 vs Chalky Wright another guy you could consider to be on this list he was Black but he was born in Durango,Mexico.
Chango Cassanova was a good call earlier by Ricardo, he had wins over Kid Azteca,Went 3-1 vs Zurita,1-1 vs Freddie Miller,3-1 vs Speedy Dado,had other impressive wins over Arizmendi,Midget Wolgast. I guess he was one also one of the Pioneer of Mexican boxing with Azteca and Arizmendi, although earlier someone said Aurelio Herrera who was the first top mexican fighter that i can think of

[ricardinho]

Actually there resumes are pretty equal although Zurita got a world title, Bolanos would have too but unfortunetly he had one of the greatest Lw ever in his way Ike Williams, and Bolanos still managed to fight him to a split decision loss Bolanos went 3-1 vs Chalky Wright another guy you could consider to be on this list he was Black but he was born in Durango,Mexico.
Chango Cassanova was a good call earlier by Ricardo, he had wins over Kid Azteca,Went 3-1 vs Zurita,1-1 vs Freddie Miller,3-1 vs Speedy Dado,had other impressive wins over Arizmendi,Midget Wolgast. I guess he was one also one of the Pioneer of Mexican boxing with Azteca and Arizmendi, although earlier someone said Aurelio Herrera who was the first top mexican fighter that i can think of

Chango Cassanova is considered by the oldtimers as one of Mexico's best. The truth is that some Mexican Boxers due to racism never got to show what they had against the best, it is arguable that some of these fighters that were prevented from fighting for a title were actually much better than what they are ranked. Black fighters were screwed major and some Mexican fighters never got their due as well.

[anarci]

Chango Cassanova is considered by the oldtimers as one of Mexico's best. The truth is that some Mexican Boxers due to racism never got to show what they had against the best, it is arguable that some of these fighters that were prevented from fighting for a title were actually much better than what they are ranked. Black fighters were screwed major and some Mexican fighters never got their due as well.agreed:good

[ricardinho]

agreed:good

Anarci is might be interesting to do it by weight straw to heavy

[GPater11093]

1. Julio Cesear Chavez
2. Ruben Olivares
3. Salvador Sanchez
4. Miguel Canto
5. Ricardo Lopez
6. Carlos Zarate
7. Vicente Saldivar
8. Marco Antonio Barrera
9. Kid Azteca
10. Erik Morales

[Addie]

1. Julio Cesear Chavez
2. Ruben Olivares
3. Salvador Sanchez
4. Miguel Canto
5. Ricardo Lopez
6. Carlos Zarate
7. Vicente Saldivar
8. Marco Antonio Barrera
9. Kid Azteca
10. Erik Morales

Terrible list but then again, you've seen three-four fights of Marco. Educate yourself, old timer.

[GPater11093]

Terrible list but then again, you've seen three-four fights of Marco. Educate yourself, old timer.

:lol::lol:

I need to see more of him. I've seen more Saldivar than Barrera :lol:

[Addie]

:lol::lol:

I need to see more of him. I've seen more Saldivar than Barrera :lol:

What's your reason for Zarate being above both Saldivar and Barrera?

[GPater11093]

What's your reason for Zarate being above both Saldivar and Barrera?

One of the most dominant Bantamweights ever with wins over the likes od Davila and Zamora, in a fairly good division. On film one of the best Bantamweights going.

[Flea Man]

1. Julio Cesear Chavez
2. Ruben Olivares
3. Salvador Sanchez
4. Miguel Canto
5. Ricardo Lopez
6. Carlos Zarate
7. Vicente Saldivar
8. Marco Antonio Barrera
9. Kid Azteca
10. Erik Morales

Lopez above Zarate, Barrera and Sadivar?!?! Get a grip boy:lol::good

[Flea Man]

No way is there 100 fighters better than Marquez and Morales:nono
Earlier you said you though Marquez was on par with Barrera,aside from resumes, and i agree with that. Marquez was about on par with both those guys, they just have slightly better resumes which puts them over him. Marquez is underrated so far on this thread.
Morales top 60 now lower than 65
Marquez no lower than 80
Barrera definitley to60

I meant Morales. I have Barrera between 65-70 on most days.

Marquez is one of my favourite fighters. And yes, there are 100 better fighters IMO.

[GPater11093]

Lopez above Zarate, Barrera and Sadivar?!?! Get a grip boy:lol::good

Actually, I think I should swap Zarate and Saldivar definitly. I really like Lopez and think he is a brilliant boxer, but yeh he probably is too high.

[Addie]

One of the most dominant Bantamweights ever with wins over the likes od Davila and Zamora, in a fairly good division. On film one of the best Bantamweights going.

That's better than a three divisional champion who beat Morales x2, Hamed, and Mckinney?

[GPater11093]

That's better than a three divisional champion who beat Morales x2, Hamed, and Mckinney?

Yes.

You cant deny they are on the same level.

[anarci]

Okay ESB, although i someone else made this thread i was intrested in how all of you voted and what the consenseus top 10 would be. So i did a point system 10 for 1st,9 for 2nd and so on . Eleven people voted on their top 10 ,the most possible points 110. Im putting every one who got a vote so 15 fighters got a vote. Heres how it looked
1.Julio Cesar Chavez 106
2.Salvador Sanchez 93
3.Ruben Olivares 87
4.Vicente Saldivar 52
5.Ricardo Lopez 48
-Miguel Canto 48
7,Marco A Barrera 44
- Carlos Zarate 44
9.Erik Morales 39
10.Juan M Marquez 25
11.Kid Azteca 11
12.Baby Arizmendi 6
13.Lupe Pintor 2
- Chiquita Gonzalez 2
15.Pipino Cuevas 1

So i guess thats the ESB consensus !

[Addie]

Okay ESB, although i someone else made this thread i was intrested in how all of you voted and what the consenseus top 10 would be. So i did a point system 10 for 1st,9 for 2nd and so on . Eleven people voted on their top 10 ,the most possible points 110. Im putting every one who got a vote so 15 fighters got a vote. Heres how it looked
1.Julio Cesar Chavez 106
2.Salvador Sanchez 93
3.Ruben Olivares 87
4.Vicente Saldivar 52
5.Ricardo Lopez 48
-Miguel Canto 48
7,Marco A Barrera 44
- Carlos Zarate 44
9.Erik Morales 39
10.Juan M Marquez 25
11.Kid Azteca 11
12.Baby Arizmendi 6
13.Lupe Pintor 2
- Chiquita Gonzalez 2
15.Pipino Cuevas 1

So i guess thats the ESB consensus !

Lopez at 5 is bullshit but I appreciate your efforts. Anyone else in the top 10 would have dealt with the level of fighters Lopez was fighting in the same dominant fashion.

[Flea Man]

That's better than a three divisional champion who beat Morales x2, Hamed, and Mckinney?

Debatable. I'd have Barrera higher as of today but Zarate was something else, the 3rd best in a stacked division.

[Flea Man]

Okay ESB, although i someone else made this thread i was intrested in how all of you voted and what the consenseus top 10 would be. So i did a point system 10 for 1st,9 for 2nd and so on . Eleven people voted on their top 10 ,the most possible points 110. Im putting every one who got a vote so 15 fighters got a vote. Heres how it looked
1.Julio Cesar Chavez 106
2.Salvador Sanchez 93
3.Ruben Olivares 87
4.Vicente Saldivar 52
5.Ricardo Lopez 48
-Miguel Canto 48
7,Marco A Barrera 44
- Carlos Zarate 44
9.Erik Morales 39
10.Juan M Marquez 25
11.Kid Azteca 11
12.Baby Arizmendi 6
13.Lupe Pintor 2
- Chiquita Gonzalez 2
15.Pipino Cuevas 1

So i guess thats the ESB consensus !
Thanks for the effort pal :good

[Addie]

Debatable. I'd have Barrera higher as of today but Zarate was something else, the 3rd best in a stacked division.

I don't think it is. Present your case without talking up some of the more obscure scalps Zarate taken, I can do that with Barrera. Check it out.

Jesse Benevides, former world champion, took Kelly and McKenzie 12, was blasted out inside three when he faced Marco. First time he had been stopped in 8 years. How about Frank Toledo? Future Featherweight champion, blasted out in the second round by Marco at 122lbs in his first title defence. How about Carlos Salazar? Fought Marco at Super Flyweight and was pretty much dominated by a 19-20 year old kid, would go on to become a two weight world champion who lost a narrow split decision to Sun Kil Moon.

[anarci]

Lopez at 5 is bullshit but I appreciate your efforts. Anyone else in the top 10 would have dealt with the level of fighters Lopez was fighting in the same dominant fashion. Well i got Lopez 3 so obviously i thin your ranking of Lopez is BULLSHIT:yep Well the other posters agreed with me more than you. Actually this list is somewhat similar to mine, so what does that tell ya:D Saldivar was rated higher than i put him, but overall the Overall ESB list didnt look to bad:good

[anarci]

I don't think it is. Present your case without talking up some of the more obscure scalps Zarate taken, I can do that with Barrera. Check it out.

Jesse Benevides, former world champion, took Kelly and McKenzie 12, was blasted out inside three when he faced Marco. First time he had been stopped in 8 years. How about Frank Toledo? Future Featherweight champion, blasted out in the second round by Marco at 122lbs in his first title defence. How about Carlos Salazar? Fought Marco at Super Flyweight and was pretty much dominated by a 19-20 year old kid, would go on to become a two weight world champion who lost a narrow split decision to Sun Kil Moon.:lol::lol::lol::lol: I See you got some pointers from me kid:good I think I reacall talking about how Barrera had better power than (even you giving him credit for) and noted how Toledo and Benavides were good scalps as far as blowing them out early. You said Toledo was a paper champ and Barrera past it. At least ya hearing me:good:D

[TBooze]

10 Erik Morales
9 Vicente Saldivar
8 Lupe Pintor
7 Salvador Sanchez
6 Marco Antonio Barrera
5 Jose Napoles (Adopted Mexico as his own country; Cuban by birth)
4 Ricardo Lopez
3 Ruben Olivares
2 Carlos Zarate
1 Julio Cesar Chavez

Mentions to: Humberto Gonzales, Miguel Canto, Rodolfo Martinez, Alfonso Zamora, Daniel Zaragoza, Joe Rivers, Baby Arizmendi, Chalky Wright, Manuel Medina, Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez and Jose Luis Castillo.

[Flea Man]

I don't think it is. Present your case without talking up some of the more obscure scalps Zarate taken, I can do that with Barrera. Check it out.

Jesse Benevides, former world champion, took Kelly and McKenzie 12, was blasted out inside three when he faced Marco. First time he had been stopped in 8 years. How about Frank Toledo? Future Featherweight champion, blasted out in the second round by Marco at 122lbs in his first title defence. How about Carlos Salazar? Fought Marco at Super Flyweight and was pretty much dominated by a 19-20 year old kid, would go on to become a two weight world champion who lost a narrow split decision to Sun Kil Moon.

Exactly, it's debatable, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing.

Pintor (who I feel Zarate beat) Martinez, Batisita (looked good when Zarate destroyed him) Zamora and Davila.......first names that come to mind. Okay, he didn't move up and down in weight with much success but weight jumping isn't really one of my main criteria.

He was dominant in the 2nd best Bantamweight division of all time IMO. Humongous puncher. I'd have Barrera above him but IMO Zarate gets massively underrated nowadays.

[Addie]

:lol::lol::lol::lol: I See you got some pointers from me kid:good I think I reacall talking about how Barrera had better power than (even you giving him credit for) and noted how Toledo and Benavides were good scalps as far as blowing them out early. You said Toledo was a paper champ and Barrera past it. At least ya hearing me:good:D

Tell you the truth, Toledo was a paper champion but I was just showing how anyone can talk up anyone's record. Reality is, Toledo was a paper champion, Benevides was practically shot, and Salazar lost every time he stepped up against the big boys. :lol: Some would sat Zamora was a wrecking machine, some would say Hamed was a wrecking machine, others would say they done nothing after their first professional loss. It's all relative.

[anarci]

10 Erik Morales
9 Vicente Saldivar
8 Lupe Pintor
7 Salvador Sanchez
6 Marco Antonio Barrera
5 Jose Napoles (Adopted Mexico as his own country; Cuban by birth)
4 Ricardo Lopez
3 Ruben Olivares
2 Carlos Zarate
1 Julio Cesar Chavez

Mentions to: Humberto Gonzales, Miguel Canto, Rodolfo Martinez, Alfonso Zamora, Daniel Zaragoza, Joe Rivers, Baby Arizmendi, Chalky Wright, Manuel Medina, Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez and Jose Luis Castillo.
Napoloes was cuban he dont count, but he would be a great addition id have him maybe tied for 3rd:think On my list with Lopez.

Mexican Joe Rivers was from Los Angeles so he would be on the Mexican American list.

[anarci]

Well i guess this gives me an idea for a new thread. You guys have been debating who was greater and between Zarate and Barrera and they ended up being tied. Canto and Lopez were also tied. As well as Chiquita and Pintor but only on a smaller level since both got 9th place votes.
I didnt add Tbooze vote cause he voted after but maybe ill do a recount if more come in and edit the points.

[Addie]

Well i guess this gives me an idea for a new thread. You guys have been debating who was greater and between Zarate and Barrera and they ended up being tied. Canto and Lopez were also tied. As well as Chiquita and Pintor but only on a smaller level since both got 9th place votes.
I didnt add Tbooze vote cause he voted after but maybe ill do a recount if more come in and edit the points.

You won't find to many people voting Gonzalez better than Pintor.

[anarci]

Thanks for the effort pal :good:good Your welcome i knew the outcome would be intresting.

[Flea Man]

1 Julio Cesar Chavez (25-35)
2 Ruben Olivares (40-50)
3 Salvador Sanchez (50-60)
4 Vincente Saldivar (50-60)
5 Marco Antonio Barrera (60-70)
6 Carlos Zarate (80-90)
7 Miguel Canto (Not certain of his placing in my top 100 at the present time)
8 Kid Azteca (as above)
9 Eric Morales (As above)
10 Baby Arizmendi (as above)

Off the top of me head anyway

[Addie]

1 Julio Cesar Chavez (25-35)
2 Ruben Olivares (40-50)
3 Salvador Sanchez (50-60)
4 Vincente Saldivar (50-60)
5 Marco Antonio Barrera (60-70)
6 Carlos Zarate (80-90)
7 Miguel Canto (Not certain of his placing in my top 100 at the present time)
8 Kid Azteca (as above)
9 Eric Morales (As above)
10 Baby Arizmendi (as above)

Off the top of me head anyway

:good I like this list.

[Flea Man]

:good I like this list.

:good

[GPater11093]

1 Julio Cesar Chavez (25-35)
2 Ruben Olivares (40-50)
3 Salvador Sanchez (50-60)
4 Vincente Saldivar (50-60)
5 Marco Antonio Barrera (60-70)
6 Carlos Zarate (80-90)
7 Miguel Canto (Not certain of his placing in my top 100 at the present time)
8 Kid Azteca (as above)
9 Eric Morales (As above)
10 Baby Arizmendi (as above)

Off the top of me head anyway

Thats a good list

[anarci]

IT would have been a good list if not for one ridiculously glaring omission:twisted:

[Addie]

IT would have been a good list if not for one ridiculously glaring omission:twisted:

:lol: Lopez was yellow.

[anarci]

Fleaman just wants to be popular and like everyone else:lol: Thats why his list is similar to the previous consensus:yep Although the rest knows something about Lopez that Flea doesnt:D

[anarci]

:lol: Lopez was yellow.
HEy im as big as Barrera fan as i am Lopez,but id have to say Lopez was the greater fighter the others on ESB thought so to:D

[Flea Man]

Fleaman just wants to be popular and like everyone else:lol: Thats why his list is similar to the previous consensus:yep Although the rest knows something about Lopez that Flea doesnt:D

A bit harsh.

[Flea Man]

My criteria is resume and ability. Lopez-Awesome ability (one of my favourite fighters to watch and I have most of his fights) but loses out on the resume stakes.

[Addie]

Anarci, you know your shit, so does Fleaman, but we clearly use different criteria. Mine is roughly, 50% Resume, 30% Ability, 10% Achievement, 10% Longevity. Roughly. If you used that as your criteria, you couldn't possibly have Lopez above Barrera.

[anarci]

A bit harsh. Just fucking with you:lol:


I think:think:think

[Addie]

My criteria is resume and ability. Lopez-Awesome ability (one of my favourite fighters to watch and I have most of his fights) but loses out on the resume stakes.

Not to worry Fleaman, you must believe like I do that the only true way to measure the greatness of a fighter is to view how they did against other great fighters. Lopez never fought one...so...he's an anomaly.

[anarci]

Anarci, you know your shit, so does Fleaman, but we clearly use different criteria. Mine is roughly, 50% Resume, 30% Ability, 10% Achievement, 10% Longevity. Roughly. If you used that as your criteria, you couldn't possibly have Lopez above Barrera.:nono Im not going thru this again:patsch The rest of them agree with me:D But if this thread keeps going ill add the points up again,dont want to keep changing maybe tomorrow.

[Flea Man]

Just fucking with you:lol:


I think:think:think

:good

[anarci]

Not to worry Fleaman, you must believe like I do that the only true way to measure the greatness of a fighter is to view how they did against other great fighters. Lopez never fought one...so...he's an anomaly. Rosendo Alvarez was borderline great and better fighter than a few in the HOF,although he probably wont get in. Maybe many years from now he might. Look at his championship record, and despite what you and some others say he beat more than a few very good fighters.

[GPater11093]

I'll admit I'm terrible at ranking fighters.

[Addie]

Address my point Anarci, if you used my criteria, there isn't a possibly way you could have Lopez above Barrera.

Resume - Barrera by a landslide. Fought a dozen world champions, including the likes of Morales three times, Hamed, Pacquiao, etc. In Popkins own words, Barrera has one of the most impressive resumes of the last 20 years. His win column is exceptional too, Morales x2, Hamed, Mckinney, Tapia, Jaurez 2, etc. Lopez has Alvarez? You can talk up his opposition, but nobody is denying that Barrera wins this one by a landslide.

Ability - Some will argue that Lopez was more complete than Marco and I have no problem with that, but it's a close run thing. Both were technically proficient and great in combination. You give Lopez the edge fine, not entirely important on the grand scale of things.

Longevity - Lopez won his first world title in 1990 and retired in 2001. Barrera won his first world title in 1995 and retired in 2009. Pretty much even.

Achievements - Lopez was a two weight world champion who unified at Light Flyweight. Barrera was a three weight world champion who unified at Super Featherweight, beat the best two Featherweights in the world back to back, and should have unified at 122lbs (Many people felt he beat Erik). Marco wasn't too interested in world title belts during his peak, but he did fight and beat far far more accomplished opposition.

...How do you have Lopez ahead by my criterion? You don't.

[anarci]

Dont act like im avoiding this because i think you are right, We beat the fuck out of this like a dead horse about 5 or 6 months ago when i was pretty new on here,about why i think Lopez deserves such a high ranking. Hes a top 35 ATG, Barrera is a top 50-60 guy.

[Addie]

You're not understanding my point, Anarci. I'm not getting you to concede that Marco was better, I'm simply asking you how you would make a case for Lopez according to my criteria. You can't.

[McGrain]

Ability - Some will argue that Lopez was more complete than Marco and I have no problem with that.


Really? I have a problem with it. Barrera showed more at more ranges and was a better technical brawler.

I think Lopez was better at what he did than Barrera, but as to which one is more complete? Barrera every day of the week unless i'm missing some new-fangled definition of that term.

I'd have Barrera higher

[GPater11093]

Address my point Anarci, if you used my criteria, there isn't a possibly way you could have Lopez above Barrera.

Resume - Barrera by a landslide. Fought a dozen world champions, including the likes of Morales three times, Hamed, Pacquiao, etc. In Popkins own words, Barrera has one of the most impressive resumes of the last 20 years. His win column is exceptional too, Morales x2, Hamed, Mckinney, Tapia, Jaurez 2, etc. Lopez has Alvarez? You can talk up his opposition, but nobody is denying that Barrera wins this one by a landslide.

Ability - Some will argue that Lopez was more complete than Marco and I have no problem with that, but it's a close run thing. Both were technically proficient and great in combination. You give Lopez the edge fine, not entirely important on the grand scale of things.

Longevity - Lopez won his first world title in 1990 and retired in 2001. Barrera won his first world title in 1995 and retired in 2009. Pretty much even.

Achievements - Lopez was a two weight world champion who unified at Light Flyweight. Barrera was a three weight world champion who unified at Super Featherweight, beat the best two Featherweights in the world back to back, and should have unified at 122lbs (Many people felt he beat Erik). Marco wasn't too interested in world title belts during his peak, but he did fight and beat far far more accomplished opposition.

...How do you have Lopez ahead by my criterion? You don't.

Surely longevity, should be at the top level.

Its been afew years since Barrera was at the top level, so even if hes fighting journymen he gets extra points in longevity, I dont think so.

[anarci]

Address my point Anarci, if you used my criteria, there isn't a possibly way you could have Lopez above Barrera.

Resume - Barrera by a landslide. Fought a dozen world champions, including the likes of Morales three times, Hamed, Pacquiao, etc. In Popkins own words, Barrera has one of the most impressive resumes of the last 20 years. His win column is exceptional too, Morales x2, Hamed, Mckinney, Tapia, Jaurez 2, etc. Lopez has Alvarez? You can talk up his opposition, but nobody is denying that Barrera wins this one by a landslide.

Ability - Some will argue that Lopez was more complete than Marco and I have no problem with that, but it's a close run thing. Both were technically proficient and great in combination. You give Lopez the edge fine, not entirely important on the grand scale of things.

Longevity - Lopez won his first world title in 1990 and retired in 2001. Barrera won his first world title in 1995 and retired in 2009. Pretty much even.

Achievements - Lopez was a two weight world champion who unified at Light Flyweight. Barrera was a three weight world champion who unified at Super Featherweight, beat the best two Featherweights in the world back to back, and should have unified at 122lbs (Many people felt he beat Erik). Marco wasn't too interested in world title belts during his peak, but he did fight and beat far far more accomplished opposition.

...How do you have Lopez ahead by my criterion? You don't.
Even based on your criteria its pretty even, Notice how on longevity you made it look like Barrera held his title longer he wasnt champ for a few years before he retired, Also Lopez never lost and was never kod, unlike Barrera yey i know he fought better overall comp but its not like everyone Lopez fought were complete stiffs he beat some pretty good fighters.

[McGrain]

why i think Lopez deserves such a high ranking. Hes a top 35 ATG.


Could you give me the fast version? The first time I did a top 100 I had Lopez at 55. I now feel I was grossly overating him, blinded by my admiration for him. He should very obviously be ranked below Pete Herman for example, who isn't top 40 in my book.

I'm just curious, all i'm after is a paragraph and then i'll offer my opinion and then we can drop it if you're a bit fatigued talking about it all.

[Addie]

Surely longevity, should be at the top level.

Its been afew years since Barrera was at the top level, so even if hes fighting journymen he gets extra points in longevity, I dont think so.

In which case, Barrera was fighting at the top level till 2007. That's still a year longer than Lopez, chap. :good Oh, and who did Marco fight in 2007 you ask? Marquez and Pacquiao back to fuckin' back! How's that for top level for you?

[anarci]

Surely longevity, should be at the top level.

Its been afew years since Barrera was at the top level, so even if hes fighting journymen he gets extra points in longevity, I dont think so.
:good Yes im glad someone else saw what i saw, trying to twist shit around with little exaggerations, just to make your opinion sound justified.

[GPater11093]

In which case, Barrera was fighting at the top level till 2007. That's still a year longer than Lopez, chap. :good Oh, and who did Marco fight in 2007 you ask? Marquez and Pacquiao back to fuckin' back! How's that for top level for you?

Barrera and Lopez have pretty much the same longevity, I'm just saying it should be relevant longevity, like Ali fighting Berbick dosent add to his longevity.

[Addie]

Even based on your criteria its pretty even, Notice how on longevity you made it look like Barrera held his title longer he wasnt champ for a few years before he retired, Also Lopez never lost and was never kod, unlike Barrera yey i know he fought better overall comp but its not like everyone Lopez fought were complete stiffs he beat some pretty good fighters.

It's really not even.

Resume- Barrera by a wide margin.

Ability - Arguably Lopez by a slim margin.

Longevity - Even, Barrera gets extra points because of his level of competition..naturally.

Achievements - Barrera fought and beat better men, and won more titles in more weight divisions.

[Addie]

Barrera and Lopez have pretty much the same longevity, I'm just saying it should be relevant longevity, like Ali fighting Berbick dosent add to his longevity.

Is there a parrot in here? ...What did I say in my post. "It's about even".

[anarci]

You're not understanding my point, Anarci. I'm not getting you to concede that Marco was better, I'm simply asking you how you would make a case for Lopez according to my criteria. You can't.

Who says i should go by your criteria? On the other post i made a brief case for why i thought Lopez was at least Barreras equal on Your Criteria.

[Flea Man]

Could you give me the fast version? The first time I did a top 100 I had Lopez at 55. I now feel I was grossly overating him, blinded by my admiration for him. He should very obviously be ranked below Pete Herman for example, who isn't top 40 in my book.

I'm just curious, all i'm after is a paragraph and then i'll offer my opinion and then we can drop it if you're a bit fatigued talking about it all.

Is there any footage of Booker available? I've become very fascinated with him lately.

[Addie]

Barrera and Lopez have pretty much the same longevity, I'm just saying it should be relevant longevity, like Ali fighting Berbick dosent add to his longevity.

...I said it was even dude. :huh

[Addie]

Who says i should go by your criteria? On the other post i made a brief case for why i thought Lopez was at least Barreras equal on Your Criteria.

...Jesus christ, I'm not asking you to go by criteria. I'm asking you to respect mine and stop saying, "Look at what everyone else thinks".

Equal on my criteria? Dude, that doesn't make sense. The only clear distinction between the two is Resume and Achievements, both by Barrera. Longevity is even, and...to be honest, so is ability.

[McGrain]

Is there any footage of Booker available? I've become very fascinated with him lately.


Negative :twisted:

[anarci]

[quote=Addie;6189652]Is there a parrot in here? ...What did I say in my post. "It's about even".[/quote ]

Cause we both see thru your rationalization,manipulation,and twistalaztion of your truths and truth nots .................ONLY IN AMERICA:D!!!

[GPater11093]

...I said it was even dude. :huh

I know, I'm just being a cunt and picky. I thought you should have been a litttle more discerning when setting out the criterea for longevity.

Is there any footage of Booker available? I've become very fascinated with him lately.

Negative :twisted:

HAve you guys read Stonehands essay on Booker?

[Addie]

[quote=Addie;6189652]Is there a parrot in here? ...What did I say in my post. "It's about even".[/quote ]

Cause we both see thru your rationalization,manipulation,and twistalaztion of your truths and truth nots .................ONLY IN AMERICA:D!!!

I'm going to go insane. I swear to god. I said in my initial post that their longevity was even, I didn't actually credit Marco for 2008-2009. :patsch

[Addie]

I'm just being a cunt Yes, you are.

Go watch more than four fights of Barrera and then come back.

[anarci]

...Jesus christ, I'm not asking you to go by criteria. I'm asking you to respect mine and stop saying, "Look at what everyone else thinks".

Equal on my criteria? Dude, that doesn't make sense. The only clear distinction between the two is Resume and Achievements, both by Barrera. Longevity is even, and...to be honest, so is ability. No cause Barrera was already faded by his 11th year, Lopez in his 11th year was still unbeatable and hadnt really slipped. ABility Lopez

Resume- well like i said Better comp Barrera Better record in title defenses and going undeafeated Lopez= slight edge to Barrera

Achievement Barrera TOtal a tie ! by your criteria.

[Addie]

And fuck it, I'll say it then, the Journeyman Barrera was fighting after his second loss to Pacquiao are probably on the same level as half of Lopez's scalps! ...THERE!

[Flea Man]

Negative :twisted:

Devvo.

Addie; I find your criteria a fair one to judge a fighters greatness.

[Flea Man]

Anarci, where do you rank Calzaghe, just out of curiosity :good

[Addie]

No cause Barrera was already faded by his 11th year, Lopez in his 11th year was still unbeatable and hadnt really slipped. ABility Lopez

Resume- well like i said Better comp Barrera Better record in title defenses and going undeafeated Lopez= slight edge to Barrera

Achievement Barrera TOtal a tie ! by your criteria.

I'm done with you.

Fleaman, permission to give this pedantic cunt both barrels in future.

[anarci]

Yes, you are.

Go watch more than four fights of Barrera and then come back. Well ive seen more than 4 of his fights, in fact ive seen more than twice as many as that live:D Barrera - Morales I:happy:happy:happy Barrera-Mckinney:happy:happy And so many i cant even count at the forum:happy:happy:lol::lol::lol:

[Addie]

Devvo.

Addie; I find your criteria a fair one to judge a fighters greatness.

Thanks, only problem being Anarci seems to think Barrera only holds a slight edge in the resume department...and says their achievements are even...despite Marco beating more accomplished fighters, and in a wider span of divisions. He seems to think Ability is clearly Lopez.

[GPater11093]

Yes, you are.

Go watch more than four fights of Barrera and then come back.

Calm down, I just was on a total different discussion on longevity. You have made a good case and you have a good list.

And I do need to watch more Barrera, but do you comment on fights you have seen 4 fights or less than?

I think most great fighters I have seen about at least 3 or 4 fights before I begin to talk about them.

[Addie]

Well ive seen more than 4 of his fights, in fact ive seen more than twice as many as that live:D Barrera - Morales I:happy:happy:happy Barrera-Mckinney:happy:happy And so many i cant even count at the forum:happy:happy:lol::lol::lol:

Which makes it even more hard to believe that you can't fathom why Barrera would be rated higher ACCORDING TO MY CRITERIA. I'm shouting on the Internet.

[Addie]

Calm down, I just was on a total different discussion on longevity. You have made a good case and you have a good list.

And I do need to watch more Barrera, but do you comment on fights you have seen 4 fights or less than?

I think most great fighters I have seen about at least 3 or 4 fights before I begin to talk about them.

Dude, I said in my initial post...longevity was even. It's actually in writing...go look. So why was I then questioned by both you and Anarci for twisting facts, when I hadn't even credited Marco for his shot years? ...I could even say Marco was fighting at top level for a year longer but it's so petty, the only way to properly compromise is to say it was even. Anarci argues that Marco was past prime, certainly, but he was still competitive with the best fighters in the world, whilst Lopez was still beating up B/C level fighters.

[anarci]

Anarci, where do you rank Calzaghe, just out of curiosity :good I know what your agenda is here Flea, you are trying to say Lopez and Calzaghes resumes where similar:yep Id put Calzaghe maybe between 80-90.

Lopez was a much better fighter than Calzaghe and would have kod him in a fantasy PFP matchup.

[Flea Man]

Thanks, only problem being Anarci seems to think Barrera only holds a slight edge in the resume department...and says their achievements are even...despite Marco beating more accomplished fighters, and in a wider span of divisions. He seems to think Ability is clearly Lopez.

Just agree to disagree, neither of you will sway. :good

[Flea Man]

I know what your agenda is here Flea, you are trying to say Lopez and Calzaghes resumes where similar:yep Id put Calzaghe maybe between 80-90.

Lopez was a much better fighter than Calzaghe and would have kod him in a fantasy PFP matchup.

I hate that 'if they were the same size'. Doesn't make sense in any way whatsoever and totally spurious.

I have no AGENDA; they are similar. I have Calzaghe higher, he faced the better competition, even if Lopez was more aesthetically pleasing:good

[Addie]

I know what your agenda is here Flea, you are trying to say Lopez and Calzaghes resumes where similar:yep Id put Calzaghe maybe between 80-90.

Lopez was a much better fighter than Calzaghe and would have kod him in a fantasy PFP matchup.

You're the one with the agenda. How the fuck did you come ot the conclusion than Lopez and Barrera are even according to my criteria when 50% of my criteria is resume? :huh Oh, resume is slightly Barrera, but ability is clearly Lopez? ...Give me a break. You should have manned up and said, "I see your point, but I rank my fighters differently". That's all it took.

[GPater11093]

Dude, I said in my initial post...longevity was even. It's actually in writing...go look. So why was I then questioned by both you and Anarci for twisting facts, when I hadn't even credited Marco for his shot years? ...I could even say Marco was fighting at top level for a year longer but it's so petty, the only way to properly compromise is to say it was even. Anarci argues that Marco was past prime, certainly, but he was still competitive with the best fighters in the world, whilst Lopez was still beating up B/C level fighters.

I know you said it was even, I agree. But in the longevity you said Barrera had won his title in 1995 and retired in 2009 (but he had ceased being a top class force say 2007). I was just being petty, wrong time to do it I think.

[anarci]

I'm done with you.

Fleaman, permission to give this pedantic cunt both barrels in future. Give him permission:rofl:rofl:rofl I eat boys like you for breakfast:lol::lol: That word cunt is not used loosely where im from so hush:nono

[Addie]

I know you said it was even, I agree. But in the longevity you said Barrera had won his title in 1995 and retired in 2009 (but he had ceased being a top class force say 2007). I was just being petty, wrong time to do it I think.

You know what, I did put 2009 so I apologize for kicking off it's just...I'm tired and...bleh. Nevermind. I apologize.

No apology for you Anarci, you're a blind cunt.

[Flea Man]

Give him permission:rofl:rofl:rofl I eat boys like you for breakfast:lol::lol: That word cunt is not used loosely where im from so hush:nono

Don't be elitist.

Cunt is used loosely round here, don't take offence:good

[GPater11093]

You know what, I did put 2009 so I apologize for kicking off it's just...I'm tired and...bleh. Nevermind. I apologize.

No apology for you Anarci, you're a blind cunt.

:rofl:rofl

fair enough, good man. Sorry for being so petty.

[anarci]

You're the one with the agenda. How the fuck did you come ot the conclusion than Lopez and Barrera are even according to my criteria when 50% of my criteria is resume? :huh Oh, resume is slightly Barrera, but ability is clearly Lopez? ...Give me a break. You should have manned up and said, "I see your point, but I rank my fighters differently". That's all it took. Ive done it a zillion times in other posts, and is tated before i didnt want to go there again but you kept going on and on and on and wanting to argue about old shit, Damn you sure remind me of a lot of EX girlfiedns:verysad

[Addie]

Ive done it a zillion times in other posts, and is tated before i didnt want to go there again but you kept going on and on and on and wanting to argue about old shit, Damn you sure remind me of a lot of EX girlfiedns:verysad

You remind me of my ex girlfriend, she knew fuck all about Boxing.

[Flea Man]

You remind me of my ex girlfriend, she knew fuck all about Boxing.

:rofl

[GPater11093]

You remind me of my ex girlfriend, she knew fuck all about Boxing.

:rofl:rofl

[anarci]

You know what, I did put 2009 so I apologize for kicking off it's just...I'm tired and...bleh. Nevermind. I apologize.

No apology for you Anarci, you're a blind cunt. You better apologize or im gonna tell everyone what you said about Chavez and Canizales:rofl:rofl:rofl before you edited out.

[GPater11093]

I dont think he would be too fussed, as he wrote it in the first place.

[Addie]

I dont think he would be too fussed, as he wrote it in the first place.

:lol: Not to sure chief, I was being a little bit overzealous about my admiration for those two fighters in particular.

Anarci, where do you rank Lopez P4P and for what reason. You must have a general system?

[GPater11093]

:lol: Not to sure chief, I was being a little bit overzealous about my admiration for those two fighters in particular.

Anarci, where do you rank Lopez P4P and for what reason. You must have a general system?

:rofl:rofl

[Flea Man]

He has him top 30. Unjustifiable IMO but he has his reasons.

[Addie]

Really? I have a problem with it. Barrera showed more at more ranges and was a better technical brawler.

I think Lopez was better at what he did than Barrera, but as to which one is more complete? Barrera every day of the week unless i'm missing some new-fangled definition of that term.

I'd have Barrera higher

:lol: I was trying to compromise with Anarci but he wasn't having any of it. Marco had a better inside game than Lopez and proved it, whilst also showing the capacity down the stretch that he could fight off the back foot behind an educated jab expertly as well.

[Flea Man]

Lopez really didn't have an inside game.

Perfect punching form though.

[anarci]

:lol: Not to sure chief, I was being a little bit overzealous about my admiration for those two fighters in particular.

Anarci, where do you rank Lopez P4P and for what reason. You must have a general system?
Maybe ill tell you tomorrow its 330 am over here and im falling asleep , LAter.

[WhataRock]

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Ruben Olivares
3. Salvador Sanchez
4. Vicente Saldivar
5. Baby Arizmendi
6. Miguel Canto
7. Erik Morales
8. Marco Antonio Barerra
9. Carlos Zarate
10. Ricardo Lopez

As I mentioned in a thread a while back..its probably not really fair yet to rank Morales and Barerra definitively because their careers only ended so recently. I said this about where they sit in regards to Zarate..a lot of people still see him above and for good reason..but Im fairly sure they will eventually slot in above Carlos on my list, so Ill put it like that.

Also like been said a couple of times already that last 5 could really be ranked anyway you want...I reckon I have about 5 equal 11th's that I contemplated putting in.

[asero]

Morales over Canto?
Nah!

Morales beat Pacquiao while Canto did not have a dominating win

[Flea Man]

Morales over Canto?
Nah!

Morales beat Pacquiao while Canto did not have a dominating win

Because you have no idea of his opponents.

[ricardinho]

Because you have no idea of his opponents.

Canto I think has the most 15 round title defense wins by decision he has 13 of them a record that has no equal. He was the Mexican Willie Pep.

Trasero gets it wrong again.

Just so you know Canto beats Nonito.

[ricardinho]

Maybe ill tell you tomorrow its 330 am over here and im falling asleep , LAter.

Efren Torres passed away today.

[Flea Man]

That's a real shame.

[anarci]

Efren Torres passed away today. Very excellent flyweight right there, did you get my Pm. How did he die?

[Bill Butcher]

There are a lot of great Mexican fighters on you guys lists that I know a fair bit about but havent seen enough of, guys like Zarate & Canto amongst others so I will respectfully leave them out, with that in mind, my top Mexicans are.....

Chavez

Sanchez/Olivares
Morales
Barrera
Lopez
Marquez

[AlFrancis]

Efren Torres passed away today.


Very sad. Seen some of th news about it, Apparently he hadn't been seen out in public since October.

Efren Alacran Torres DEP

[Flea Man]

There are a lot of great Mexican fighters on you guys lists that I know a fair bit about but havent seen enough of, guys like Zarate & Canto amongst others so I will respectfully leave them out, with that in mind, my top Mexicans are.....

Chavez

Sanchez/Olivares
Morales
Barrera
Lopez
Marquez

I have Chavez between 25-35, and Olivares between 35-45. Not that much of a disparity IMO:good

[Bill Butcher]

I have Chavez between 25-35, and Olivares between 35-45. Not that much of a disparity IMO:good

Chavez makes my top 10 tho but I concede, I shouldnt have even put a gap between he & the rest, all elite fantastic legendary fighters that are not separated by miles :good

[ricardinho]

I have Chavez between 25-35, and Olivares between 35-45. Not that much of a disparity IMO:good

Wow ... so many thing wrong with that statement dont know where to begin

[Flea Man]

Wow ... so many thing wrong with that statement dont know where to begin

Well go on then.

[Flea Man]

Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langford
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep
Archie Moore
Benny Leonard
Muhammad Ali
Barney Ross
Mickey Walker
Tony Canzoneri
Bob Fitzsimmons
Barbados Joe Walcott
Charley Burley
Jimmy McLarnin
Terry McGovern
Joe Louis
Gene Tunney
George Dixon
Joe Gans
Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Sandy Saddler
Luis Manuel Rodriguez
Carlos Ortiz
Ike Williams
Kid Gavilan
Alexis Arguello
Jose Napoles
Eder Jofre
Carlos Monzon
Young Corbett II
Marvin Hagler
Julio Cesar Chavez
Emile Griffith
Roy Jones Jr
Packie McFarland
Michael Spinks
Manny Pacquiao
Fighting Harada
Jack Britton
Ruben Olivares
Thomas Hearns
Larry Holmes
Jim Driscoll
Tommy Loughran
Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis
‘Panama’ Al Brown
Jimmy Wilde
Evander Holyfield
Dick Tiger

Thats what I got thus far; where would you have Olivares and Chavez?

[AlFrancis]

Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langford
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep
Archie Moore
Benny Leonard
Muhammad Ali
Barney Ross
Mickey Walker
Tony Canzoneri
Bob Fitzsimmons
Barbados Joe Walcott
Charley Burley
Jimmy McLarnin
Terry McGovern
Joe Louis
Gene Tunney
George Dixon
Joe Gans
Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Sandy Saddler
Luis Manuel Rodriguez
Carlos Ortiz
Ike Williams
Kid Gavilan
Alexis Arguello
Jose Napoles
Eder Jofre
Carlos Monzon
Young Corbett II
Marvin Hagler
Julio Cesar Chavez
Emile Griffith
Roy Jones Jr
Packie McFarland
Michael Spinks
Manny Pacquiao
Fighting Harada
Jack Britton
Ruben Olivares
Thomas Hearns
Larry Holmes
Jim Driscoll
Tommy Loughran
Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis
‘Panama’ Al Brown
Jimmy Wilde
Evander Holyfield
Dick Tiger

Thats what I got thus far; where would you have Olivares and Chavez?

That's an interesting one, Harada over Olivares. How do you see them head to head at Bantam or Feather even when both of them probably weren't the force they were at bantam.
Like the list, someone will pick holes in it though :lol:

[Flea Man]

That's an interesting one, Harada over Olivares. How do you see them head to head at Bantam or Feather even when both of them probably weren't the force they were at bantam.
Like the list, someone will pick holes in it though :lol:

Oh, there are holes. Was in response to Riocardinhos comments more than anything else.

I think Olivares beats Harada at Bantam; He can box as well as Harada IMO, and if Harada tries to swarm him he's walking into Hell.

Haradas wins over Jofre top anything on Olivares resume IMO; no shame in that. There is obviously more to my placing than that but in short, Harada was the only man to beat Jofre=High placing:deal:good

Haven't seen the Famechon fight where Harada is supposedly robbed; wouldn't want to comment on a hypothetical 126 matchup between the two :good

[anarci]

Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langford
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep
Archie Moore
Benny Leonard
Muhammad Ali
Barney Ross
Mickey Walker
Tony Canzoneri
Bob Fitzsimmons
Barbados Joe Walcott
Charley Burley
Jimmy McLarnin
Terry McGovern
Joe Louis
Gene Tunney
George Dixon
Joe Gans
Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Sandy Saddler
Luis Manuel Rodriguez
Carlos Ortiz
Ike Williams
Kid Gavilan
Alexis Arguello
Jose Napoles
Eder Jofre
Carlos Monzon
Young Corbett II
Marvin Hagler
Julio Cesar Chavez
Emile Griffith
Roy Jones Jr
Packie McFarland
Michael Spinks
Manny Pacquiao
Fighting Harada
Jack Britton
Ruben Olivares
Thomas Hearns
Larry Holmes
Jim Driscoll
Tommy Loughran
Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis
‘Panama’ Al Brown
Jimmy Wilde
Evander Holyfield
Dick Tiger

Thats what I got thus far; where would you have Olivares and Chavez? SO im assuming^^^is your list in order? I always thought you were scared to put one up. They are very hard to put up, props for making one up:good Definitly dont agree with it but then again most lists are hard to agree with. . I think you overrated Britton,McCfarland,Corbett II, Driscoll and Panama Al brown(but just a little). Underrate modern fighters overrate old timers.

Hopkins should be on your list so, Manny should be higher, Chavez way higher,Hearns well lets just say a lot of modern fighters should be higher or put on that list. I have Holy in my top 20. Sanchez should also be on that list. For as much as i love Arguello, Chavez is better and should be higher

[Flea Man]

SO im assuming^^^is your list in order? I always thought you were scared to put one up. They are very hard to put up, props for making one up:good Definitly dont agree with it but then again most lists are hard to agree with. . I think you overrated Britton,McCfarland,Corbett II, Driscoll and Panama Al brown(but just a little). Underrate modern fighters overrate old timers.

Hopkins should be on your list so, Manny should be higher, Chavez way higher,Hearns well lets just say a lot of modern fighters should be higher or put on that list. I have Holy in my top 20. Sanchez should also be on that list.

No, because some newer fighters lose out on the longevity stakes, or don't fight as much top opposition.

I think its fair. No war do I overrate Britton, McFarland, Corbett 2, Driscoll and Al Brown. If anything they have a case to be higher. Hopkins just missed out, as did Sal Sanchez, I'm massive fans of both so to push em out of the top 55 or so was painful. But they will feature in the next batch, as will Lloyd Marshall, Holmann Williams (both top 30ish methinks) and Eddie Booker, who will probably feature in the 60-70 range:good

Thanks for the comments though pal. I was never scared, just unsure. I hope to have the whole top 100 finished by next week:good

It's all worth the debate:yep

[Flea Man]

In fact I'm gonna cross reference Williams, Marshall and Burley; I'm not that certain that Burley was the de facto best out of these three. It will take some figuring out, but it's a fun exercise for me if nothing else.

EDIT: Swap Hagler and Chavez round. Move Monzon up a few places (see what I mean, its so easy to question your own choices as you always forget something)

anyway, this was in response to Ricardinho, just so he didn't think my rankings were unfounded :good

[anarci]

In fact I'm gonna cross reference Williams, Marshall and Burley; I'm not that certain that Burley was the de facto best out of these three. It will take some figuring out, but it's a fun exercise for me if nothing else.

EDIT: Swap Hagler and Chavez round. Move Monzon up a few places (see what I mean, its so easy to question your own choices as you always forget something)

anyway, this was in response to Ricardinho, just so he didn't think my rankings were unfounded :good Yey i made a rough draft a few months back and if i looked at it again im sure id make some changes. Lot of times there isnt much seperating someone within 20 places. Although im pretty set on my first 10.

[Flea Man]

Yey i made a rough draft a few months back and if i looked at it again im sure id make some changes. Lot of times there isnt much seperating someone within 20 places. Although im pretty set on my first 10.

BOLD: i know, it hurts my head sometimes:rofl

LINeD: same here:good

[anarci]

Leonard much higher than 24!

Anyways sticking to the thread topic im even hardpressed to put the Alltime Mexican list after the first 12 0r 13 those only split hairs seperating the next 15 or 20,and i consider Mexican fighters my specialty, Ive seen just about all of them fight and the ones i havent i know about their careers. Maybe that will be my next project.

[AlFrancis]

I've never done a list and I never will. just seems to me an impossible task. I'd end up sitting there picking holes in my own list let alone other people picking holes in it. Got to say though that I'm a huge fan of JC Chavez.
So many factors involved. Your own personal favourites, who you've seen, read about, heard about, rating the competition. This is the hardest, specially with the older fighters.

[AlFrancis]

Got to say though that a lot of the modern fighters gain prestige for winning what we now call "super fights between 2 "world" champs when to a lot of the older fighters these were title defences agains contenders who would of been much more higher profile if they were fighting today.

[Flea Man]

Leonard much higher than 24!

Anyways sticking to the thread topic im even hardpressed to put the Alltime Mexican list after the first 12 0r 13 those only split hairs seperating the next 15 or 20,and i consider Mexican fighters my specialty, Ive seen just about all of them fight and the ones i havent i know about their careers. Maybe that will be my next project.

I think that's a just placing.

[Flea Man]

Got to say though that a lot of the modern fighters gain prestige for winning what we now call "super fights between 2 "world" champs when to a lot of the older fighters these were title defences agains contenders who would of been much more higher profile if they were fighting today.

Agree 100%

Add the more regular fighting schedule of fighters from years gone by, the fact they had to weigh in on the same day, and the fact that the top fighters seemingly had no qualms about conceding weight, and I think it's just that 'old tiemrs' are rated higher.

Not the modern fighters faults, and there are obvious exceptions (even on my list) but I think no one will ever touch the resume of say, Tony Canzoneri again. Just the way the game is going, even if coniditioning has apparently evolved, I personally think the constant weight cutting and long build-ups detract from a fighters shelf life.

Just a theory.

[natonic]

I've never done a list and I never will. just seems to me an impossible task. I'd end up sitting there picking holes in my own list let alone other people picking holes in it. Got to say though that I'm a huge fan of JC Chavez.
So many factors involved. Your own personal favourites, who you've seen, read about, heard about, rating the competition. This is the hardest, specially with the older fighters.

To your point Al, I'm very dismayed to have left Lupe Pintor out of my top ten.

[Addie]

Kudos on the list Fleaman, doing one of those is way over my head.

[Flea Man]

Kudos on the list Fleaman, doing one of those is way over my head.

Yeah, but there's probably gaping holes, especially as I learn more every day.

But I'm pretty happy with it thus far. If anyone has any criticisms, let me know and I will research the fighter they think should be higher.

If there's anyone that has a genuine shout of the top 50, let me know and I will research, this goes to anyone.

[Flea Man]

Manassas was shaping up to be brilliant and thought-provoking; alas, he's on another self-imposed exile again :lol:

[anarci]

How high do you rate jumping weights succesfuly? If you rate them high you should put Oscar on that list,and Jones should be rated higher,not a big Jones fan but you cant deny his talent and success at different weights.

[Addie]

Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Sam Langford
Roberto Duran
Willie Pep
Archie Moore
Benny Leonard
Muhammad Ali
Barney Ross
Mickey Walker
Tony Canzoneri
Bob Fitzsimmons
Barbados Joe Walcott
Charley Burley
Jimmy McLarnin
Terry McGovern
Joe Louis
Gene Tunney
George Dixon
Joe Gans
Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Sandy Saddler
Luis Manuel Rodriguez
Carlos Ortiz
Ike Williams
Kid Gavilan
Alexis Arguello
Jose Napoles
Eder Jofre
Carlos Monzon
Young Corbett II
Marvin Hagler
Julio Cesar Chavez
Emile Griffith
Roy Jones Jr
Packie McFarland
Michael Spinks
Manny Pacquiao
Fighting Harada
Jack Britton
Ruben Olivares
Thomas Hearns
Larry Holmes
Jim Driscoll
Tommy Loughran
Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis
‘Panama’ Al Brown
Jimmy Wilde
Evander Holyfield
Dick Tiger

Thats what I got thus far; where would you have Olivares and Chavez?

I can't really make a case for Hagler being higher than Chavez personally.

[Flea Man]

I can't really make a case for Hagler being higher than Chavez personally.

I realised that meself, look back a few posts:good

[Flea Man]

How high do you rate jumping weights succesfuly? If you rate them high you should put Oscar on that list,and Jones should be rated higher,not a big Jones fan but you cant deny his talent and success at different weights.

Nope, opposition is my main thing really. Jones is high due to his unnatural ability as much as his success in weights. Giving up weight figures high, i.e Joe Walcotts win over Joe Choynski.

Oscar would be between 70-80 methinks:good

[Addie]

How high do you rate jumping weights succesfuly? If you rate them high you should put Oscar on that list,and Jones should be rated higher,not a big Jones fan but you cant deny his talent and success at different weights.

I'm not denying Jones talent, but I'm not denying that Hopkins was a novice when Jones beat him either. Outside of Toney, the crutch of his work was done at 175lbs. Michael Spinks was dominant over a far superior era of Light Heavyweights, and then moved up and defeated a far better Heavyweight than Ruiz not once, but twice and defended his title a few times...albeit against run down opposition. Jones would have been sleeping inside the first round with Mike Tyson as well.

I see some people getting frustrated when it's mentioned that Oscar lost his biggest fights but is it not true? He beat Vargas after he had taken his beaten against Trinidad, and although his fights with Quartey and Whitaker were big, he found a way to lose to Trinidad, Hopkins, Mosley, Mayweather, and even Pacquiao. It doesn't define his career, the guy spanned many divisions and left a mark in practically all of them, but not without a bit of help along the way (Quartey, Sturm, Whitaker). Not a huge fan to tell you the truth.

[anarci]

I'm not denying Jones talent, but I'm not denying that Hopkins was a novice when Jones beat him either. Outside of Toney, the crutch of his work was done at 175lbs. Michael Spinks was dominant over a far superior era of Light Heavyweights, and then moved up and defeated a far better Heavyweight than Ruiz not once, but twice and defended his title a few times...albeit against run down opposition. Jones would have been sleeping inside the first round with Mike Tyson as well.

I see some people getting frustrated when it's mentioned that Oscar lost his biggest fights but is it not true? He beat Vargas after he had taken his beaten against Trinidad, and although his fights with Quartey and Whitaker were big, he found a way to lose to Trinidad, Hopkins, Mosley, Mayweather, and even Pacquiao. It doesn't define his career, the guy spanned many divisions and left a mark in practically all of them, but not without a bit of help along the way (Quartey, Sturm, Whitaker). Not a huge fan to tell you the truth. Sturm was his only questionable win, i will forever say that he beat Quartey and WHittaker although the fight with Ike was closer. His only true losses were against

Mosley I (but very close i had Shane by 1 point)
Hopkins
and 2 past his prime
Mayweather (close had May by 2)
Pac ( only fight that he was not in but we know the circumstances)

Fought more quality fighters than anyone in the past 25 years and usually won, lost more controversial ones than the ones they gave him and if i listed all the quality fighters hes beaten it would take longer than i care to . just look at Boxing rECORDS.

[Addie]

Sturm was his only questionable win, i will forever say that he beat Quartey and WHittaker although the fight with Ike was closer. His only true losses were against

Mosley I (but very close i had Shane by 1 point)
Hopkins
and 2 past his prime
Mayweather (close had May by 2)
Pac ( only fight that he was not in but we know the circumstances)

Fought more quality fighters than anyone in the past 25 years and usually won, lost more controversial ones than the ones they gave him and if i listed all the quality fighters hes beaten it would take longer than i care to . just look at Boxing rECORDS.

Name the best 5 opponents Oscar faced, and what happened in those fights?

[Flea Man]

I'd probably swap Saddler and Rodriguez around as well........gonna make some amendments this weekend :good

[anarci]

Name the best 5 opponents Oscar faced, and what happened in those fights?
Chavez tko 4 tko 8
Whittaker w 12 115-112
Hopkins loss to the bigger man,but was very much in it more so than Napoloes vs Monzon
Mosley L12(by 1 point) Robbed in the other one i had him Oscar by 3 points in the 2nd one.
TIto robbed( had it 117-112)

If you wanna say Manny and Floyd well he was past it but still very competetive with Floyd, tells me he would have beaten him only a couple years before that.

There are a whole lot of other quality wins do you want me to name the World champs? It would probably be in double digit numbers.:yep

[Flea Man]

Chavez tko 4 tko 8
Whittaker w 12 115-112
Hopkins loss to the bigger man,but was very much in it more so than Napoloes vs Monzon
Mosley L12(by 1 point) Robbed in the other one i had him Oscar by 3 points in the 2nd one.
TIto robbed( had it 117-112)

If you wanna say Manny and Floyd well he was past it but still very competetive with Floyd, tells me he would have beaten him only a couple years before that.

There are a whole lot of other quality wins do you want me to name the World champs? It would probably be in double digit numbers.:yep

I don't think Oscar looked any better against B-Hop than Napoles did against Monzon. No way whatsoever IMO.

[anarci]

I'd probably swap Saddler and Rodriguez around as well........gonna make some amendments this weekend :good I would keep Sadler above Rodriguez in fact id move Sadler higher. He is easily top 20 on my list maybe even top 15.

IS Ike Williams on your list?

[Flea Man]

I would keep Sadler above Rodriguez in fact id move Sadler higher. He is easily top 20 on my list maybe even top 15.

IS Ike Williams on your list?

Unless I've totally lost my mind Ike Williams should be at about.......24 I think, without checking back:good

[Addie]

Chavez tko 4 tko 8
Whittaker w 12 115-112
Hopkins loss to the bigger man,but was very much in it more so than Napoloes vs Monzon
Mosley L12(by 1 point) Robbed in the other one i had him Oscar by 3 points in the 2nd one.
TIto robbed( had it 117-112)

If you wanna say Manny and Floyd well he was past it but still very competetive with Floyd, tells me he would have beaten him only a couple years before that.

There are a whole lot of other quality wins do you want me to name the World champs? It would probably be in double digit numbers.:yep

The best opponents he faced taking into account at what point of their careers they were in, Whitaker was past prime and above his best weight, Chavez was also. It reads as follows.

Pacquiao - Lost
Hopkins - Lost
Mayweather - Lost
Mosley - Lost
Trinidad - Lost

[anarci]

I don't think Oscar looked any better against B-Hop than Napoles did against Monzon. No way whatsoever IMO.

:rofl:patsch Total Bullshit watch them both again and get back at me! Are you Fucking Serious:huh Monzon beat Napoloes pretty easy, Cant be said for Hopkins and Oscar a fight that was somewhat close at the time of the stoppage, I had Hopkins ahead but not by much. Man Addie did you see the Monzon and Napoloes fight? Its on you tube watch it again.

[Flea Man]

:rofl:patsch Total Bullshit watch them both again and get back at me! Are you Fucking Serious:huh Monzon beat Napoloes pretty easy, Cant be said for Hopkins and Oscar a fight that was somewhat close at the time of the stoppage, I had Hopkins ahead but not by much. Man Addie did you see the Monzon and Napoloes fight? Its on you tube watch it again.

Different styles as well though. In the early going Napoles looked shit hot...Oscar looked flabby and out of his depth. I have both figths will re-watch them againt his weekend, but don't see my opinion changing:good

[anarci]

The best opponents he faced taking into account at what point of their careers they were in, Whitaker was past prime and above his best weight, Chavez was also. It reads as follows.

Pacquiao - Lost
Hopkins - Lost
Mayweather - Lost
Mosley - Lost
Trinidad - Lost

Now your just sounding like a dummy and a hater, i expected better from you. You are beginning to turn into one of those posters who twist shit around so you can justify what you say:-( ill give you that when talking about Chavez, but Whittaker turned back the clock for that fight and ODLH would have always beaten him at Welter, also ODLH was the one moving up in weight. His first fight at that weight class.
Talking about ODLH loss to Pac is like talking about Barreras loss to Khan.
ODLh loss to Mayweather was like Barreras loss to Marquez
ODLH second loss to Mosley,like Barrera -Morales I
ODLH and STURM Barrera and Rocky Juarez I
ODLH and HOPkins Barrera And MAnny I although i shouldnt even make that comparison cause Manny wasythe one moving up not Barrera, Where as Oscar moved up when he lost to Hopkins.

And ODLH loss to Tito is one of the top 3 robberies ever in a big fight

[anarci]

Different styles as well though. In the early going Napoles looked shit hot...Oscar looked flabby and out of his depth. I have both figths will re-watch them againt his weekend, but don't see my opinion changing:good Im not expecting you to move up Oscar based on what i just mentioned, that was for Addie.. Are you trying to tell me Oscar wasnt competetive with Hopkins:huh OScar won more rounds against Hopkins than Napoloes did against Monzon.

Oscar looked flabby against Sturm not against Hopkins, but anyways that wasnt the point i m saying Oscar was more competetive.

[Flea Man]

Now your just sounding like a dummy and a hater, i expected better from you. You are beginning to turn into one of those posters who twist shit around so you can justify what you say:-( ill give you that when talking about Chavez, but Whittaker turned back the clock for that fight and ODLH would have always beaten him at Welter, also ODLH was the one moving up in weight. His first fight at that weight class.
Talking about ODLH loss to Pac is like talking about Barreras loss to Khan.
ODLh loss to Mayweather was like Barreras loss to Marquez
ODLH second loss to Mosley,like Barrera -Morales I
ODLH and STURM Barrera and Rocky Juarez
ODLH and HOPkins Barrera And MAnny I but i shouldnt even make that comparison cause Manny was moving up, Where as Oscar moved up when he lost to Hopkins.

And ODLH loss to Tito is one of the top 3 robberies ever in a big fight

No offence but the same accusations could be chucked at you.

[Flea Man]

Im not expecting you to move up Oscar based on what i just mentioned, that was for Addie.. Are you trying to tell me Oscar wasnt competetive with Hopkins:huh OScar won more rounds against Hopkins than Napoloes did against Monzon.

Napoles was also smaller. Monzon IMO is better than Hopkins. See what I mean? Napoles-Monzon was fought at a MUCH higher pace and Napoles also stayed on his feet underneath a frightening barrage.

[anarci]

No offence but the same accusations could be chucked at you. In these recent posts where did i twist anything around? All facts or consensus opinions for the most part. Maybe i shouldnt have thrown Chavez in there like if he was in his prime but i did retract. Regardless Chavez was still a big win for the Young Oscar. Chavez was not so washed up like the one after that fought on, Chavez was still considered a lower top 10 pfp guy when boxing was stacked with Pfp guys.

[Flea Man]

Oscar beating Pea is NOT concensous.

[anarci]

Napoles was also smaller. Monzon IMO is better than Hopkins. See what I mean? Napoles-Monzon was fought at a MUCH higher pace and Napoles also stayed on his feet underneath a frightening barrage.

Well Napoloes started at Lw Oscar started at JL, and i put Monzon and prime Hopkins on even par however you want to put them i wouldnt argue either way but basically only split hairs between them. I have Monzon around 15-20 and Hopkins early 20s on my atg list.

[Flea Man]

Well Napoloes started at Lw Oscar started at JL, and i put Monzon and prime Hopkins on even par however you want to put them i wouldnt argue either way but basically only split hairs between them. I have Monzon around 15-20 and Hopkins early 20s on my atg list.

Oscar-Taller

Napoles-Weighed in on the same day

Oscar=Bigger than Napoles

[anarci]

Oscar beating Pea is NOT concensous.

Well on ESB and to east coast fans in the US its probably about 50/50. IVe seen it numerous times, even tried looking at it pretending to be a Pea fan and still cant give it too him. Pea looked good that night though IMO as good as he looked against Mcgirt. ODLH would have beaten Pea even more convincingly had he hit his peak at that weight, he got better as a welter after that.

But id say at LW a Pea would have most likely beat Oscar.

[anarci]

Oscar-Taller

Napoles-Weighed in on the same day

Oscar=Bigger than Napoles

SO did Monzon, im sure Hopkins was alot heavier than Monzon come fight night. Same can be said of their opponents. If anything the height makes ODLH more adaptable to move up which makes him more effective than Napoloes,but im not here to debate those 2, but since this seems to be turning that way id say those to a very close on my PFP list.

[Flea Man]

SO did Monzon, im sure Hopkins was alot heavier than Monzon come fight night. Same can be said of their opponents. If anything the height makes ODLH more adaptable to move up which makes him more effective than Napoloes,but im not here to debate those 2, but since this seems to be turning that way id say those to a very close on my PFP list.

Fair enough points.

I'm not sure why we're arguing:lol:

[anarci]

Fair enough points.

I'm not sure why we're arguing:lol: Its addies fault he started it and then ran away:lol: Hopefully he is watching the Napoloes-Monzon and Hopkins - Delhahoya.:lol:

[Bill Butcher]

Now your just sounding like a dummy and a hater, i expected better from you. You are beginning to turn into one of those posters who twist shit around so you can justify what you say:-( ill give you that when talking about Chavez, but Whittaker turned back the clock for that fight and ODLH would have always beaten him at Welter, also ODLH was the one moving up in weight. His first fight at that weight class.
Talking about ODLH loss to Pac is like talking about Barreras loss to Khan.
ODLh loss to Mayweather was like Barreras loss to Marquez
ODLH second loss to Mosley,like Barrera -Morales I
ODLH and STURM Barrera and Rocky Juarez I
ODLH and HOPkins Barrera And MAnny I although i shouldnt even make that comparison cause Manny wasythe one moving up not Barrera, Where as Oscar moved up when he lost to Hopkins.

And ODLH loss to Tito is one of the top 3 robberies ever in a big fight

TBH, this sounds extremely biased in Oscar`s favour.

The Tito fight was close but clear for Oscar, top 3 biggest robberies my ass.
Morales-Barrera I was a closer fight than Mosely-DLH 1, Shane won clearly despite it being competitive all the way (Oscar was jobbed in fight 2 tho, no way he lost that fight)
Barrera-Juarez I was very close... Sturm was plain jobbed.
And how can you say Oscar would have always beat Whitaker at 147 judging by the closeness of their 1st fight ? :huh... if anything, I think that alone should make Whitaker a decent favourite over Oscar at 147 if your using the versions that fought Chavez & Mcgirt the 2nd time.

[anarci]

TBH, this sounds extremely biased in Oscar`s favour.

The Tito fight was close but clear for Oscar, top 3 biggest robberies my ass.
Morales-Barrera I was a closer fight than Mosely-DLH 1, Shane won clearly despite it being competitive all the way (Oscar was jobbed in fight 2 tho, no way he lost that fight)
Barrera-Juarez I was very close... Sturm was plain jobbed.
And how can you say Oscar would have always beat Whitaker at 147 judging by the closeness of their 1st fight ? :huh... if anything, I think that alone should make Whitaker a decent favourite over Oscar at 147 if your using the versions that fought Chavez & Mcgirt the 2nd time.

I had Oscar by 5 over Tito (so do lot of others on ESB) I had Whittaker by 4 over Chavez(every one whines about that one thought) Lewis by 6 over Holyfield in the 1st. SO yey out of big fights in recent times this is one of the worst.
I had Barrera by 2 over Morales(saw it live:D) and had the Oscar/Shane fight even going into the last round but Shane won it big to seal it imo.

If you paid attention to my post i stated my reasons why Oscar would have always beat him at Welter

Only statement i would say that wasnt 100% accurate was the Rocky/Barrera that fight could have gone either way a draw would have been fair. Where as i felt Sturm beat Oscar by 2, but overall i thought all the comparisons were right on the money! Dont see where the extreme bias is in any of these statements, As im a huge Barrera fan and been following him since he was a prospect fighting at the FOrum.

[Bill Butcher]

I had Oscar by 5 over Tito (so do lot of others on ESB) I had Whittaker by 4 over Chavez(every one whines about that one thought) Lewis by 6 over Holyfield in the 1st. SO yey out of big fights in recent times this is one of the worst.
I had Barrera by 2 over Morales(saw it live:D) and had the Oscar/Shane fight even going into the last round but Shane won it big to seal it imo.

If you paid attention to my post i stated my reasons why Oscar would have always beat him at Welter

Only statement i would say that wasnt 100% accurate was the Rocky/Barrera that fight could have gone either way a draw would have been fair. Where as i felt Sturm beat Oscar by 2, but overall i thought all the comparisons were right on the money! Dont see where the extreme bias is in any of these statements, As im a huge Barrera fan and been following him since he was a prospect fighting at the FOrum.

IMO, the EM-MAB I fight was an even fight, could have gone either way.... I thought Oscar beat Mosely decisively in their rematch.... There was only one robbery when discussing those 2 fights & it wasnt campeon v campeon.

:good

[Addie]

I don't see why things I say have to be taken out of context all the time. Anarci, I fully well realise that Oscar was not prime for Pacquiao and Mayweather, and that he was way above his best weight for Hopkins, but does the fact not still remain that the 5 best fighters he ever faced on fight night all beat him? Is that not factual?

[Addie]

There's an obvious theme among the fights fought between Barrera and Morales. The sentimental favorite in the first fight, the underdog if you will, was Marco Antonio Barrera. Because he fought better than expected some people go that little bit further and claim robbery when in actual fact, it was about as close as a fight could possibly get. If you prefer workrate, Morales will get rounds 7 and 9. If you prefer damage inflicted, Barrera wins those rounds.

In their rematch, it's often seen that Morales was robbed out of a clear victory. Bill certainly thinks so, but ask yourself again, who was the sentimental favorite going into that fight? Barrera had beaten Hamed, people felt he beat Morales, he was a slight favorite as Morales had not looked impressive at 126lbs. The underdog puts up a very very competitive fight, Morales is loved anyway, so people have to go that step further and say he was robbed. It was a close fight, could have gone either way.

Who was the sentimental favorite going into the third fight? It was the first time the sentimental favorite actually got the verdict...which is probably why there aren't many arguments.

[anarci]

IMO, the EM-MAB I fight was an even fight, could have gone either way.... I thought Oscar beat Mosely decisively in their rematch.... There was only one robbery when discussing those 2 fights & it wasnt campeon v campeon.

:good
1st fight Barrera by 2
2nd fight Morales by ? forgot how i scored it but thought he won
3rd fight Barrera by 3

and each time i rooted for Barrera so sentmental favorite had nothing to do with it, even placed a bet in Vegas on Barrera even though many thought he wouldnt win, I would have bet on Barrera even if the odds were even. I knew he wasnt past it like some had thought and didnt think Morales was as great as everyone thought. Although my opinion changed after this. Now that their careers are over i hold Barrera just a tad better than Morales not much seperating them even though im a bigger Barrera fan. Like Morales too, i just followed Barrera longer and like his style.

[Flea Man]

I felt Barrera edged the series with Morales, though have only scored the first so the 2nd and 3rd are on my priority list for re-watching :good

Oscar was definitely robbed in the 2nd Mosley fight.

[burt bienstock]

One of my favorite Mexican or non Mexican fighter is Israel Vazquez...A great crowd pleasing featherweight with a tremendous left hook...Belongs with most any featherweight,since Arguello the great....

[anarci]

One of my favorite Mexican or non Mexican fighter is Israel Vazquez...A great crowd pleasing featherweight with a tremendous left hook...Belongs with most any featherweight,since Arguello the great....:goodAgreed i think he is underrated and his stock will go up someday, he is a definite Hall of Famer, and i dont think he should wait long to get in either. You could make an argument for him being a top 15 Mex of all time.

[Addie]

1st fight Barrera by 2
2nd fight Morales by ? forgot how i scored it but thought he won
3rd fight Barrera by 3

and each time i rooted for Barrera so sentmental favorite had nothing to do with it, even placed a bet in Vegas on Barrera even though many thought he wouldnt win, I would have bet on Barrera even if the odds were even. I knew he wasnt past it like some had thought and didnt think Morales was as great as everyone thought. Although my opinion changed after this. Now that their careers are over i hold Barrera just a tad better than Morales not much seperating them even though im a bigger Barrera fan. Like Morales too, i just followed Barrera longer and like his style.

Not talking about you specifically, Anarci.

Let's say Barrera was expected to lose in the rematch, and it had been him looking like he had lost a few steps after the first fight. Do you think so many people would have cried robbery given how close the fight ended up being? I have my doubts. It's easier for the masses to scream robbery because they feel Morales was cheated...but only because he wasn't expected to win. There's a point well worth making in there somewhere, maybe I'm not doing a good job at explaining it though.

[Addie]

I like Israel, but Barrera and Morales light him up at 122lbs and 126lbs.

[anarci]

I like Israel, but Barrera and Morales light him up at 122lbs and 126lbs. I agree but it wouldnt be easy:nono Be some great wars:bbb:yep

[Jorodz]

1.oscar de la hoya

2-10. who cares

[anarci]

Not talking about you specifically, Anarci.

Let's say Barrera was expected to lose in the rematch, and it had been him looking like he had lost a few steps after the first fight. Do you think so many people would have cried robbery given how close the fight ended up being? I have my doubts. It's easier for the masses to scream robbery because they feel Morales was cheated...but only because he wasn't expected to win. There's a point well worth making in there somewhere, maybe I'm not doing a good job at explaining it though. Neither of the fights were that bad of decisions but the final score equaled out 2to 1 Barrera just the wrong decisions, I guess i was extra pissed cause they robbed me too along with Barrera in the first fight:twisted:

[anarci]

1.oscar de la hoya

2-10. who cares:huh No 1 what?

[Addie]

Neither of the fights were that bad of decisions but the final score equaled out 2to 1 Barrera just the wrong decisions, I guess i was extra pissed cause they robbed me too along with Barrera in the first fight:twisted:

Barrera wasn't robbed, that's the point here. It was a close fight, people just feel pissed because the underdog didn't get the decision.

[Jorodz]

:huh No 1 what?

haha just fucking about. enjoying the discussion guys

btw: number 1 kind of has to be chavez for me.

my top 4 would be relatively flexible with certain guys pretty much guaranteed a spot

1. Chavez
2-4. Olivares, Sanchez, Lopez

after that guys like zarate, morales, barrera and marquez fight for the next spots

[anarci]

Barrera wasn't robbed, that's the point here. It was a close fight, people just feel pissed because the underdog didn't get the decision. I wouldnt say it was a robbery but it was unjust, but hey so was the 2nd they were equally close and both times wrong guy got decision.

a robbery is Delahoya and Trinidad a 6 point difference.

Anything 3 or more can be considered a robbery

[Flea Man]

Addie; I know exactly what you mean.

BTW, Vasquez is not on the level of Barrera/Morales/

And Wilfredo Gomez would beat those two :deal

[anarci]

haha just fucking about. enjoying the discussion guys

btw: number 1 kind of has to be chavez for me.

my top 4 would be relatively flexible with certain guys pretty much guaranteed a spot

1. Chavez
2-4. Olivares, Sanchez, Lopez

after that guys like zarate, morales, barrera and marquez fight for the next spots If i included Mex- Americans on the list id have him around 3 or maybe 4 kind of hard to seperate him and Lopez for me but id have him slightly edging out Olivares. If you could put half Mexicans Duran would replace Chavez at 1. Manuel Ortiz thats a hard one hed be anywhere between Oscar and Zarate 3-7

[anarci]

Addie; I know exactly what you mean.

BTW, Vasquez is not on the level of Barrera/Morales/

And Wilfredo Gomez would beat those two :deal
Everyone always wants to talk like Gomez would beat up on Barrera or Morales, id actually call those a 50/50 fight or 52/48 Gomez. Yes even at 122, and at 126 i like Barrera and Morales for sure.

[Addie]

I wouldnt say it was a robbery but it was unjust, but hey so was the 2nd they were equally close and both times wrong guy got decision.

a robbery is Delahoya and Trinidad a 6 point difference.

Anything 3 or more can be considered a robbery

The definition of a robbery to me is pretty simple. When a fighter gets the decision despite there being no conceivable way at all that you could have scored the fight for them. Funeka/Guzman is a prime example, the worst robbery I've ever seen watching it as it happened.

[anarci]

The definition of a robbery to me is pretty simple. When a fighter gets the decision despite there being no conceivable way at all that you could have scored the fight for them. Funeka/Guzman is a prime example, the worst robbery I've ever seen watching it as it happened. yey worst decision last year. I also thought Froch and Dirrell was pretty bad.

[Jorodz]

If i included Mex- Americans on the list id have him around 3 or maybe 4 kind of hard to seperate him and Lopez for me but id have him slightly edging out Olivares. If you could put half Mexicans Duran would replace Chavez at 1. Manuel Ortiz thats a hard one hed be anywhere between Oscar and Zarate 3-7

oh good call on ortiz, feel like an ass missing him. obviously top 10 but have to say not sure where i'd place him. likely just outside top 5

yeah for the purposes of the list i didn't include mex-americans but that certainly opens things up

olivares' 1967-68 run is one of the best of modern times for me. 23 fights, all wins with 19 KOs. some of the opposition was less than stellar but when he was on top he was one of the best bangers of all time and could box like a mother when he had to. just didn't have to much

based on his 3 or so prime years, i'd put him above oscar personally

[Flea Man]

Everyone always wants to talk like Gomez would beat up on Barrera or Morales, id actually call those a 50/50 fight or 52/48 Gomez. Yes even at 122, and at 126 i like Barrera and Morales for sure.

At 126 I';d favour them both over Gomez

[Addie]

yey worst decision last year. I also thought Froch and Dirrell was pretty bad.

Not a robbery. :bart You could have conceivably scored the fight for Froch on work rate alone, as some did. Funeka outlanded, outworked, outscored, outlasted, and beat the crap out of Guzman.

[anarci]

Not a robbery. :bart You could have conceivably scored the fight for Froch on work rate alone, as some did. Funeka outlanded, outworked, outscored, outlasted, and beat the crap out of Guzman. Oh then you really gonna think my card is crazy, . Only rounds Froch won was when Dirrell ran too much which was 4 rounds tops, Dirrell fought dissapointing at times but clearly won and landed the bigger punches. This was like a poor mans Tito and ODLH.

[Addie]

Oh then you really gonna think my card is crazy, . Only rounds Froch won was when Dirrell ran too much which was 4 rounds tops, Dirrell fought dissapointing at times but clearly won and landed the bigger punches. This was like a poor mans Tito and ODLH.

Well, there's always one. Divac thinks Chavez deserved a draw against Whitaker. :lol:

[anarci]

Well, there's always one. Divac thinks Chavez deserved a draw against Whitaker. :lol:My uncle thinks the fight was a draw too(but then again his last name is Chavez:D)

[Flea Man]

I felt Froch had won....but I was pissed and in attendance. When watching on DVD I felt Dirrell had won it but the fight was so shit it should've been stopped.

[anarci]

I felt Froch had won....but I was pissed and in attendance. When watching on DVD I felt Dirrell had won it but the fight was so shit it should've been stopped. Yey i seen you on TV stumbling around:lol: Is it true you were harassing people over there:D

[Addie]

Yey i seen you on TV stumbling around:lol: Is it true you were harassing people over there:D

What broadcast and what's the timecode? :lol:

[Flea Man]

Yey i seen you on TV stumbling around:lol: Is it true you were harassing people over there:D

I didn't hassle no one and I just didn't take no shit:good

[Flea Man]

ADDIE: Froch's post-fight interviews on Primetime AND showtime; you know who I am.

[anarci]

ADDIE: Froch's post-fight interviews on Primetime AND showtime; you know who I am.
Yey i wasnt kidding when i made that comment, i know i heard someone around here saying you were on TV, but that you were really drunk. True?

[Flea Man]

Yey i wasnt kidding when i made that comment, i know i heard someone around here saying you were on TV, but that you were really drunk. True?

I wasn't saying I wasn't drunk. I just wasn't 'hassling' peeps. I was drunk, but not offensive.

However, some guy tried giving me shit and threatening me saying he was a boxer and I kindly informed him he'd fucked with one of THE iron chins:rofl

[Addie]

I wasn't saying I wasn't drunk. I just wasn't 'hassling' peeps. I was drunk, but not offensive.

However, some guy tried giving me shit and threatening me saying he was a boxer and I kindly informed him he'd fucked with one of THE iron chins:rofl

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Addie]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

HAHA. 1.00 in, there he is.

[Addie]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[anarci]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

HAHA. 1.00 in, there he is.:lol::lol: Finally put a face on him although thats how i pictured Flea:D

[Jorodz]

:lol::lol: Finally put a face on him although thats how i pictured Flea:D

haha that's awesome!

[Flea Man]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Bang out of order

[Addie]

Don't worry about bro, I watched Superbad with my mates the other day and now they call me it not because I resemble him but I'm down with the slang. I'm always saying, "Waddup dawgg", so that's that. :) No need to bitter, we can be McLovin's together.

[Flea Man]

You look nuttin like him :lol:

[Addie]

Neither do you mate. lol.

[Flea Man]

I know. But I do have spex

[Addie]

...I didn't think an intellectual would ever be offended by such crap..you surprise me.

[Flea Man]

...I didn't think an intellectual would ever be offended by such crap..you surprise me.

Only because it's a long running thing I thought I'd shifted when I left school.

In all seriousness, I love superbad and mcLovin is pretty cool.

[Flea Man]

Also.....intellectual?!?!? I'm a prized bullshitter and thats about the extent of my intellect :rofl

[ricardinho]

:lol::lol: Finally put a face on him although thats how i pictured Flea:D

He looks kind of lost...he must be real drunk

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]