Who is the nicest fighter in History?

[fg2227]

Inside and outside the ring?

My vote would be maybe joe Louis

[joe33]

Yeah id say louis to,with maybe someone like henry cooper who i met once,a nice bloke to have a quick chat to.

[fg2227]

Shavers seems a nice guy.

[JohnThomas1]

Alexis Arguello.

[Bill1234]

Alexis Arguello.

That was my pick.

[JohnThomas1]

That was my pick.

Truly a gentleman. The way he treated Mancini and his dad was moving and he was always the first to worry about fighters he ko'ed, of which there were plenty. Big power. Genuine concern and compassion for all his opponents after the deed was done. Excepting his very small blemishes post Pryor I i'd say Alexis is as classy a guy who has ever stepped into the ring. From memory he went and fought in battle for his country too when he didn't have to. Many have him top 20 all time too.

[janitor]

Max Schmeling deservs a mention.

Verry atentive to the welbeing of oponents.

Refused to continue against Mickey Walker if the reff did not stop the fight. Carried the defeated Louis back to his corner.

[Luigi1985]

Max Schmeling deservs a mention.

Verry atentive to the welbeing of oponents.

Refused to continue against Mickey Walker if the reff did not stop the fight. Carried the defeated Louis back to his corner.


I met Max personally with my father, Schmeling was really a friendly and cool person, that´s a good choice. Another choices could be Benvenuti, Arguello, etc.

[PowerPuncher]

Micheal Grant always said in a sincere voice 'God Bless' to his opponent before the fight started. I dont know much more about him on a personal side.

Frank Bruno was always a friendly, down to earth, heart on his sleeve, salt of the earth kind of guy and beloved in Britain for it.

[PowerPuncher]

Mike Tyson

The nice side of him was nice at least :lol:

[Lacyace]

Shavers seems a nice guy.

Yeah, he does.

[mike4819]

Patterson?

[red cobra]

I would say Floyd Patterson. He was always a thoughful gentleman and he seemed oddly out of place in the sport of boxing. After his winning fight against George Chuvalo, he was most complimentary to George and very sportsmanlike right after the fight, but George ignored him. Unlike most fighters of today who would have reciprocated by dissing him back, he still remained very chivalrous and complimentary of his opponent. That was just one example. He always wanted to help an opponent back to his feet after knocking them down, and he visited Sonny Liston alone after his second loss to Ali and consoled him. A very unusual man for a fighter and in my opinion, a very good man.

[red cobra]

Fighters, especially those of the past, have always seemed like decent men, particularly being in such a brutal profession. Arguello was another classic example, as well as Jersey Joe Walcott.

[Minotauro]

Walcott, Patterson and Buno seem/seemed like nice guys. Foreman seems to be a nice guy in his late age.

[janitor]

I met Max personally with my father, Schmeling was really a friendly and cool person, that´s a good choice. Another choices could be Benvenuti, Arguello, etc.

Wow.

You met a guy who fought Joe Louis and sparred with Jack Dempsey!!!!!

Did you shake his hand?

[OLD FOGEY]

Gene Fullmer perhaps deserves a mention. Very rough inside the ring, but very popular with everyone who met him as a "civilian."

And Fullmer reminds me of Dick Tiger, another always nice gentleman.

[Jack Dempsey]

Max Baer

[Titan1]

That was my pick.

Mine too.:good

[Hitman]

I Met ...D.Lopez, W.Mccullugh,Alex Garcia,CArlos Palomino,Tony Lopez,Mike Weaver,A Muniz and Julio Gonzalez, and all were class acts.

[TBooze]

Frank Bruno was always a friendly, down to earth, heart on his sleeve, salt of the earth kind of guy and beloved in Britain for it.

I am sure the teacher he layed out may disagree.

Bruno seems to have a split personality, I have heard stories about him losing his cool with fans and allegedly his (ex?) wife, Laura.

The nicest boxers I met were James Oyebola, Hughroy Currie, Scott Welsh and (somewhat suprisingly) Chris Eubank

[My dinner with Conteh]

Earnie Shavers and John Conteh

[Mohak]

Floyd Patterson

[Drew101]

Alexis Arguello
Emmanuel Augustus comes across as a really nice guy, too.

[The Funny Man 7]

Paulie Ayala

[mdmuir]

Not the nicest in history by any stretch, But Liston did always check on the condition of fighters he knocked out after every match. Not bad for what was considered the most brutish man to have laced them up at that point.

[JohnThomas1]

Earnie Shavers and John Conteh

Nice picks too i must say.

[RDJ]

Truly a gentleman. The way he treated Mancini and his dad was moving and he was always the first to worry about fighters he ko'ed, of which there were plenty. Big power. Genuine concern and compassion for all his opponents after the deed was done. Excepting his very small blemishes post Pryor I i'd say Alexis is as classy a guy who has ever stepped into the ring. From memory he went and fought in battle for his country too when he didn't have to. Many have him top 20 all time too.

Can you tell me a bit more on this?

[rydersonthestorm]

John conteh is not really a nice guy he knows some very dodgy people and if you fucked him off you would find out he is not as nice as you think.
I would say riicky hatton is easily one of the nicest fighter's of all time, he still lives near his parents, he owns the local pub and is well liked by everyone in the uk and especially the people round the area he lives. He said he would be gutted if people thought that he thought he was better than them and tries to live as normal a life as posible.

[brownpimp88]

mosley

[My dinner with Conteh]

John conteh is not really a nice guy he knows some very dodgy people and if you fucked him off you would find out he is not as nice as you think.


I think most top fighters know a few 'very dodgy people' and wouldn't be happy if you 'fucked them off'.

[rydersonthestorm]

I know about conteh becuase i have heard alot of stuff about what has happened to people that have fucked him off.

[Bill1234]

Truly a gentleman. The way he treated Mancini and his dad was moving and he was always the first to worry about fighters he ko'ed, of which there were plenty. Big power. Genuine concern and compassion for all his opponents after the deed was done. Excepting his very small blemishes post Pryor I i'd say Alexis is as classy a guy who has ever stepped into the ring. From memory he went and fought in battle for his country too when he didn't have to. Many have him top 20 all time too.

Apparently he even trained at Larry's for about a month, then said it was too cold and left. Ive always read and heard he's a class act, I would like to meet him, I doubt I will, but you never know.

[Bill1234]

Rocky Marciano is anoter mention. He supposedly (spelling, I can't spell today) never refused to give an autograph.

[Mohak]

Can you tell me a bit more on this?

He said Mancini loving his father is a beautiful thing, hugged him and offerd to help them anyway he could.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Thomas Hearns always seemed like a great guy win or lose

[littleguy]

Randy Shields, Stan Ward, Alex Ramos and Gerry Cooney are all great guys. Cooney and Ramos run the Retired Boxers Foundation that helps ex-fighters who are down on their luck.

For the old timers the Blonde Bomber Billy Walker is a true gent. Billy was an all-action English heavyweight who headlined in the 1960's.

[The Whaler]

Most fighters are friendly people outside the ring. Shane Mosley was quite nice.

[Marciano Frazier]

Max Schmeling- was always a gentleman, cared about and helped out his opponents, helped shelter potential Holocaust victims, and when he died I believe he left nearly all his estate to charity. Emmanuel Augustus seems like a really nice guy, as well, and showed a lot of class when he refused to throw head shots at Ray Oliveira after Oliveira injured the back of his neck. Marciano was an extremely gracious champion, always treated the little guy with respect and made personal friends with dozens and dozens of small-town Joe Schmoes, and purportedly never turned down an autograph request.

In my personal experience, Joe Frazier was extremely kind, open, gracious, and helpful to me.

[cardstars]

Anyone ever meet Hagler? I'm just curious because he is my all time fav. I have heard that nowadays he is great with autographs and fans, as compared to back in the day (when I hear he would give the cold shoulder more often than not)

[TBooze]

I was waiting for someone to mention this. Yeah, Schmeling wins this thread. I mean come on.

Playing Devils Advocate, Schmeling was superb at spin and did not mind giving Hitler a foot hold in a great sport in America, by being seen with him in the mid 30s.

And before we get the well he had little choice but to go along with Adolf excuse, unlike many Germans (mainly Jews) he had the means to criticize Hitler at that time, and stay relatively save in the US with his family. I have little doubt it would of taken great courage to do that, but if the stories of Schmeling heroics in WWII are true he had courage, and choose not to use it...

[dmt]

Marcel Cerdan

[Black Eyes To You]

Mike Weaver, Julian Jackson, Gene Fullmer, Ken Norton, Emile Griffith. All good guys.

[Chaney]

Playing Devils Advocate, Schmeling was superb at spin and did not mind giving Hitler a foot hold in a great sport in America, by being seen with him in the mid 30s.

And before we get the well he had little choice but to go along with Adolf excuse, unlike many Germans (mainly Jews) he had the means to criticize Hitler at that time, and stay relatively save in the US with his family. I have little doubt it would of taken great courage to do that, but if the stories of Schmeling heroics in WWII are true he had courage, and choose not to use it...I think Max Schmeling wins this thread, as much as I'm sure there are lots of nice boxers.

It was obvious that Max didn't like what Hitler was doing in turning his rematch with Louis into a race war. I believe his family were under 'observation' by the gestapo, in case Max didn't fight. The Nazis shut off the live broadcast in Germany when Max lost.

If Hitler and Max had been buddies, Max wouldn't have ended up taking part in highly risky operations as a paratrooper. (I heard once that he was in the bloodbath at Crete...can anybody confirm this?)

I have no reason to disbelieve the stories that Max protected some Jewish friends from the Holocaust at tremendous personal risk.

What hasn't been mentioned is that Max was a true friend to Louis, who half-killed him in their historic rematch. Over the years, Max often helped out Joe financially, when Joe was in trouble with the tax man. Wasn't Max one of the pall-bearers at Joe's funeral?

[janitor]

If Hitler and Max had been buddies, Max wouldn't have ended up taking part in highly risky operations as a paratrooper. (I heard once that he was in the bloodbath at Crete...can anybody confirm this?)


Yes Schmeling saw action in Crete. At some point in the action he re injured his spine where Louis had fractured it and was mediced out.

That injury might just have saved his life.

[janitor]

I have no reason to disbelieve the stories that Max protected some Jewish friends from the Holocaust at tremendous personal risk.


Some friends of Schmeling put the number of Jews he helped as high as 100.

We will probably never know for sure since he was reluctant to discuss the matter after the war.

[knockout]

Ricardo Mayorga.

[Icemmann]

I don't think James Butler will be getting any votes.

[Chaney]

Yes Schmeling saw action in Crete. At some point in the action he re injured his spine where Louis had fractured it and was mediced out.

That injury might just have saved his life.Crete was such a bloody and costly engagement that Hitler never committed large numbers of paratroopers to battle again. It was a nasty business...as well as the military defense, all the farm workers were killing the Nazi paratroopers as they landed, using axes and pitchforks.

Perhaps Hitler was trying to get 'the disgraced' Max killed in action?

[Sizzle]

Lamon Brewster comes to mind.

I always saw Joe Louis as being a little spineless out of the ring, nice as he was, he was just afraid of being rejected socially.

Max Schmeling does have some pretty awful quotes attributed to him with regards to not letting a ****** beat him. I'm sure his heart was golden, but he sure as hell didn't stand up for what he believed in.

[janitor]

[quote=Sizzle]I always saw Joe Louis as being a little spineless out of the ring, nice as he was, he was just afraid of being rejected socially.


He was not afraid of being rejected socialy he was afraid of the wider concequences for others. It is people like Jack Johnson who do not face up to the concequences of their actions for others and the responsibilities they carry who are the real cowards.

Remember that it was Louis who broke the colour bar down not Johnson or Ali or any of the fire brand types.


Max Schmeling does have some pretty awful quotes attributed to him with regards to not letting a ****** beat him. I'm sure his heart was golden, but he sure as hell didn't stand up for what he believed in


He literaly put his life on the line to help Jews escape from Germany. If his activities had been detected he would verry likley have ended up in a concentration camp. As it was he was drafted despite being over the age limit for the draft.

Just what exactly would you have expected him to do?

[Chaney]

I always saw Joe Louis as being a little spineless out of the ring, nice as he was, he was just afraid of being rejected socially.

Max Schmeling does have some pretty awful quotes attributed to him with regards to not letting a ****** beat him. I'm sure his heart was golden, but he sure as hell didn't stand up for what he believed in.Thats harsh on Joe. I think he was a decent guy (although he did cheat on his wife). The person he hurt most out of the ring was himself.

I can't account for every utterence Max Schmeling made, but make no mistake...a racist could not have been such a loyal friend to Joe Louis. Max helped out Joe as much as he could, including financially. I think he was a pall-bearer at Joe's funeral and I recollect hearing that he paid for Joes funeral.

Living in Nazi Germany, Max would have had the perfect excuse to be a rabid racist. But instead he decided to risk his own neck to help save the lives of Jews. This world needs more people like Max Schmeling!

[Duodenum]

Anyone ever meet Hagler? I'm just curious because he is my all time fav. I have heard that nowadays he is great with autographs and fans, as compared to back in the day (when I hear he would give the cold shoulder more often than not)My sister worked as a receptionist at a Boston law firm which represented him when he was champion. Marv was always very pleasant, taking care to remember my sister's name and seemed to be in a perpetually good mood while in New England. A former schoolmate of mine babysat for his offspring, and said he was very gentle. Pat and Goody Petronelli were decent folks, and that seems to have rubbed off on Hagler a bit. (It probably would have been a real good idea to give him space while he was training in Provincetown, however. In a situation like that, a cold shoulder would be perfectly appropriate.)

Interestingly, Antuofermo gave Marv some advice and tacit support before Hagler dethroned Minter, based on his own experience with Alan in London, adive which Marv thanked Vito for afterwards. (Outside of head-to-head competition, it seems that Hagler and Antuofermo had a very respectful and cordial relationship.) After Marv avenged an earlier loss against Bobby Watts with a kayo win, he hired on Boogaloo as a sparring partner, not something I could see Tyson agree to help Holyfield with.

[Bill1234]

Larry Holmes is a mention. I wouldn't say he's the nicest, but he's a great guy, is the most down to Earth fighter Ive ever seen. He'll spend a lot of time with you if he's not busy. He's always happy to sign autographs too. I guess his main thing is though, he has a temper, as he has shown. He has no problem cursing you out or punching you in the face if you get snappy.

[McGrain]

Larry Holmes is a mention.


Didn't you just quote him in the "Fantasy Press Conference" - "you're an abortion that never happened?"

Holmes isn't worth a mention in my view.

Charley Burley. I always say Charley Burley, but this time i'm right.

Battling Siki is also worth a mention, helping up Carpantier after he'd been fouled so badly by the Frenchman (who had slipped) was quite touching.

[Bill1234]

Didn't you just quote him in the "Fantasy Press Conference" - "you're an abortion that never happened?"

Holmes isn't worth a mention in my view.

Charley Burley. I always say Charley Burley, but this time i'm right.

Battling Siki is also worth a mention, helping up Carpantier after he'd been fouled so badly by the Frenchman (who had slipped) was quite touching.

No, thats what Toney said. Why isn't Larry a mention? He's a real nice guy. He even offered me hot wings on the house at his resturant. He's a great, down to Earth, nice man. I was invited to his BBQ too. I couldn't make it though.:-(

[McGrain]

No, thats what Toney said.

I understand now.


Why isn't Larry a mention? He's a real nice guy. He even offered me hot wings on the house at his resturant. He's a great, down to Earth, nice man. I was invited to his BBQ too. I couldn't make it though.:-(

Nice story. I bet he is nice to you. The thing is is that he comes across (no disrespect to the ATG heavyweight) as money obsessed and arrogant.

[Bill1234]

I understand now.




Nice story. I bet he is nice to you. The thing is is that he comes across (no disrespect to the ATG heavyweight) as money obsessed and arrogant.

He comes accross that way with reporters who repeatedly ask the same questions, or ask the stupidest questions you can think of. Like I said, Larry's main problem is he doesn't have a lot of patients, and he has a temper.

[McGrain]

He comes accross that way with reporters who repeatedly ask the same questions, or ask the stupidest questions you can think of. Like I said, Larry's main problem is he doesn't have a lot of patients, and he has a temper.


Sounds like he's sound with you and sounds like a reasonable guy, but if you mention him in this thread seriously you have to mention every fighter that there ever was that didn't rape somebody basically.

Larry ever talk to you about his fights? Or his own jab, the technical side of it?

[McGrain]

and then it happend !!! He kicked me an the head again...........

I said thank's Larry & we parted are ways................

Interesting for an 8th post...

[Sizzle]

[quote]


He was not afraid of being rejected socialy he was afraid of the wider concequences for others. It is people like Jack Johnson who do not face up to the concequences of their actions for others and the responsibilities they carry who are the real cowards.

Remember that it was Louis who broke the colour bar down not Johnson or Ali or any of the fire brand types.



He literaly put his life on the line to help Jews escape from Germany. If his activities had been detected he would verry likley have ended up in a concentration camp. As it was he was drafted despite being over the age limit for the draft.

Just what exactly would you have expected him to do?

I disagree.

Jack Johnson was a man, he didn't act in a particularly unethical fashion, he just acted the like a white man - The way black men weren't supposed to because they were inferior. He spat in the face of social expectation and political pressure and lived his life the way every black man should have - HOWEVER THE HELL HE WANTED!

Joe Louis was a coward, and only managed to overcome the underlying racism of the time by conforming to the expectations of white people. Not celebrating when he knocked out a white opponent? Pathetic. The papers were still calling him a black this and that regardless. You'd think at least once he had the title he would begin to man up and make a GENUINE stand for race relations, not just be the nice black guy who is alright in the eyes of the public because he doesn't celebrate knocking out the superior white folk.

As Ali said himself, Louis was grateful, compliant and undemanding towards white people - An Uncle Tom. This at a time when his good friend Jesse Owns is winning four gold medals at the olympics, and not being able to sit with white people the next day on a bus? Simply pathetic. Not all was right with civil rights in Louis' time and he turned a blind eye. Jack Johnson, and Muhammad Ali refused to accept the issue as it stood.

As for Max Schmeling, simple;
Reject Hitler. It's well documented he never really like Hitler or his ideals, but he wasn't man enough to publically declare he didn't want to associate himself with the Nazi's and with the Aryan stuff. He did even run errands for Hitler, like finding Primo Carnera when he was supposedly kidnapped.

As for Larry Holmes - PLEASE! The biggest asswipe in the history of the sport.

[young griffo]

[quote=janitor]

I disagree.

Jack Johnson was a man, he didn't act in a particularly unethical fashion, he just acted the like a white man - The way black men weren't supposed to because they were inferior. He spat in the face of social expectation and political pressure and lived his life the way every black man should have - HOWEVER THE HELL HE WANTED!

Joe Louis was a coward, and only managed to overcome the underlying racism of the time by conforming to the expectations of white people. Not celebrating when he knocked out a white opponent? Pathetic. The papers were still calling him a black this and that regardless. You'd think at least once he had the title he would begin to man up and make a GENUINE stand for race relations, not just be the nice black guy who is alright in the eyes of the public because he doesn't celebrate knocking out the superior white folk.

As Ali said himself, Louis was grateful, compliant and undemanding towards white people - An Uncle Tom. This at a time when his good friend Jesse Owns is winning four gold medals at the olympics, and not being able to sit with white people the next day on a bus? Simply pathetic. Not all was right with civil rights in Louis' time and he turned a blind eye. Jack Johnson, and Muhammad Ali refused to accept the issue as it stood.

As for Max Schmeling, simple;
Reject Hitler. It's well documented he never really like Hitler or his ideals, but he wasn't man enough to publically declare he didn't want to associate himself with the Nazi's and with the Aryan stuff. He did even run errands for Hitler, like finding Primo Carnera when he was supposedly kidnapped.

As for Larry Holmes - PLEASE! The biggest asswipe in the history of the sport.
Reject Hitler?
You clearly have not the slightest notion what it was like to live under a dictatorship,where even the slightest sign of dissent could be met with execution.

Do you know about the "Night of the Long Knives"?That's was when a few hundred suspected dissidents were taken in the dead of night and summarily executed.No trials,no chance to defend themselves,just a death sentence imposed because they were thought to oppose the Nazi regime.

And you critisize Schmeling for not openly opposing the Nazi's when faced with that.:-(

Sure Germans like Marlene Dietrich and Albert Einstein made there anti-Nazi feelings known but only from the safety of the U.S not while still German residents where they would've been imprisoned or shot for it.

Would you have been man enough to publicly oppose Hitler if you were in Max Schmeling's position?Would you have had his courage to risk the consequences by hiding those Jewish children?

You may say yes but I reckon there's not a chance in hell that you would've.Hence I find your criticism regarding Schmeling as simplistic,naive,and quite frankly ridiculous.

[Brickhaus]

Battling Siki is also worth a mention, helping up Carpantier after he'd been fouled so badly by the Frenchman (who had slipped) was quite touching.

Didn't he also walk through the streets of New York with large wild cats, shooting guns randomly? Or am I thinking of someone else? Or has my lack of historical knowledge led this sarcasm to fail miserably on me?

[JohnThomas1]

No, thats what Toney said. Why isn't Larry a mention? He's a real nice guy. He even offered me hot wings on the house at his resturant. He's a great, down to Earth, nice man. I was invited to his BBQ too. I couldn't make it though.:-(

Holmes gets a lot of fan milage out of those hot wings Bill.

Seriously tho, i could put forth some quotes Holmes has made about other fighters, fighters who didn't bag him first, that would make many shudder. He always moaned of lack of respect yet treated his opponents somewhere between maggot and scum level. Either pretty much all of Larry's opponents were assholes, or he was. I know what odds i'm on. He might be fine and settled now, who knows.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Classless Larry moment No: 2377.

In his oft-read (by Bill) book, The Mallard mentions that Lennox Lewis met up with him and was very complimentary: "Hey man when you gonna show me how to throw a jab like yours". Instead of feeling gracious about the comments he saw fit to slag Lewis off for saying such a thing, referring to him as "a joke" and a "wanna be". What a total cock! :-(


But then again, he can't be all bad, as he does a good line in offering teenage boys a chance to come round to his house to sample his 'hot nadgers'. ;)

[ChrisPontius]

Joe Louis was a coward, and only managed to overcome the underlying racism of the time by conforming to the expectations of white people. Not celebrating when he knocked out a white opponent? Pathetic. The papers were still calling him a black this and that regardless. You'd think at least once he had the title he would begin to man up and make a GENUINE stand for race relations, not just be the nice black guy who is alright in the eyes of the public because he doesn't celebrate knocking out the superior white folk.


Joe Louis a coward? :-(


What Johnson did was very brave and i don't blame him for it considering circumstances, but he set his race back rather than helping it. Not to mention that he never gave a black man a title shot either, when he had a 5 year oppurtunity and plenty of well deserving challenegers.

Ali was a racist himself as well. Calling Frazier a gorilla, uncle Tom, calling Sonny Liston a big ugly bear, not to mention joining a racist group who supported seperatism. If Ali was white, he would've been known as one of the worst racists out of the celebrities of that period.

What Joe Louis did for the black people is incredible. Who cares if he didn't humiliate his falling opponents in the ring like Johnson and Ali did? He carried himself with dignity and probably celebrated his victories in private over champaign without it hurting anyone. I think it takes a lot of courage and self-control to humble yourself like Louis did, for the best of your people.




On Holmes, he was an arrogant prick and always seemed to carry a huge chip on his shoulder. Maybe he wasn't invited to birthdayparties as a kid or has some other reasons to think everyone betrays him. However, as far as i know he did not beat up his wife, have 30 kids outside of his marriage or any of the other traditional boxers problems. So he's not that bad. I have more respect for an arrogant prick who upholds the law and takes care of his family than someone who comes across as a nice guy while beating up and cheating on his wife.

[janitor]

[quote=Sizzle][quote=janitor]

I disagree.

Jack Johnson was a man, he didn't act in a particularly unethical fashion,


Well now that depends whether you consider beating up women to be unethical


he just acted the like a white man - The way black men weren't supposed to because they were inferior. He spat in the face of social expectation and political pressure and lived his life the way every black man should have - HOWEVER THE HELL HE WANTED!


He lived his life how he wanted and if a dozen black men were lynched after one of his fights then so be it.

Joe Louis was a coward, and only managed to overcome the underlying racism of the time by conforming to the expectations of white people.

But Louis tore down the colour bar where Johnson only made it stronger. You cannot argue with the results he got.


The papers were still calling him a black this and that regardless. You'd think at least once he had the title he would begin to man up and make a GENUINE stand for race relations, not just be the nice black guy who is alright in the eyes of the public because he doesn't celebrate knocking out the superior white folk.


He did make a stand for race relations by proving that he was a positive role model and that he was not inferior. That is why fighters like Ezzarch Charles anf Joe Walcott were able to fight for the title on their merits.

You might think this is cowardice but in many ways it is the ultimate form of courage. Louis sacrificed himself to make things better for other black athletes


As Ali said himself, Louis was grateful, compliant and undemanding towards white people - An Uncle Tom. This at a time when his good friend Jesse Owns is winning four gold medals at the olympics, and not being able to sit with white people the next day on a bus? Simply pathetic. Not all was right with civil rights in Louis' time and he turned a blind eye. Jack Johnson, and Muhammad Ali refused to accept the issue as it stood.


And ended up making things worse not better.

Who do you think did more good for black people Louis or Johnson?

Serious answers only please.


As for Max Schmeling, simple;
Reject Hitler.


Man you really are a fool.

If Schmeling rejects Hitler on Monday he is dead by Wednesday. It is that simple. People got shot just for printing pamphlets criticising the regime.

[JohnThomas1]

Classless Larry moment No: 2377.

In his oft-read (by Bill) book, The Mallard mentions that Lennox Lewis met up with him and was very complimentary: "Hey man when you gonna show me how to throw a jab like yours". Instead of feeling gracious about the comments he saw fit to slag Lewis off for saying such a thing, referring to him as "a joke" and a "wanna be". What a total cock! :-(


But then again, he can't be all bad, as he does a good line in offering teenage boys a chance to come round to his house to sample his 'hot nadgers'. ;)


"Hot nadgers"


:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

[rydersonthestorm]

It's a pity lewis didn't punch him in the head with the big overhand right saying 'well at least i can show you punch'

[My dinner with Conteh]

It's a pity lewis didn't punch him in the head with the big overhand right saying 'well at least i can show you punch'


Ha ha, very true. What's more he went on to say "If the roles were reversed I would have said: "I'd kick you ass old man". Honestly, what an overwhelming gobshite. :-(

[SeanDoc]

Floyd Mayweather. So modest, so humble.

[TBooze]

Floyd Mayweather. So modest, so humble.

A shame about his son Lil Floyd;)

[Thread Stealer]

I am sure the teacher he layed out may disagree.

Bruno seems to have a split personality, I have heard stories about him losing his cool with fans and allegedly his (ex?) wife, Laura.


Yeah, similar with Joe Louis.

He was known as a good guy, but I'm sure his mistress whom he assaulted and almost killed would disagree with Louis being the nicest guy.

I tend to think that a lot of top boxers (and athletes in general) in pretty complex individuals.

[garymcfall]

Mate of mine met Chris Eubank and said he seemed like a good guy. Surprised me a little I wouldnt have expected that but he said he seemed down to earth, didnt mind having a quick chat and signing a few things.

[janitor]

Yeah, similar with Joe Louis.

He was known as a good guy, but I'm sure his mistress whom he assaulted and almost killed would disagree with Louis being the nicest guy.

I tend to think that a lot of top boxers (and athletes in general) in pretty complex individuals.

This should not come as any surprise.

As a champion Louis was as ruthless and cruel as any that ever breathed inside the roped square.

The most dangerous fighters are not the thugs like Sonny Liston or Mike Tyson they are the Jekel and Hyde types.

[MagnificentMatt]

Sonny Liston and Riddick Bowe :-)

[Sizzle]

[quote]
[quote=Sizzle]

Well now that depends whether you consider beating up women to be unethical



He lived his life how he wanted and if a dozen black men were lynched after one of his fights then so be it.



But Louis tore down the colour bar where Johnson only made it stronger. You cannot argue with the results he got.



He did make a stand for race relations by proving that he was a positive role model and that he was not inferior. That is why fighters like Ezzarch Charles anf Joe Walcott were able to fight for the title on their merits.

You might think this is cowardice but in many ways it is the ultimate form of courage. Louis sacrificed himself to make things better for other black athletes



And ended up making things worse not better.

Who do you think did more good for black people Louis or Johnson?

Serious answers only please.



Man you really are a fool.

If Schmeling rejects Hitler on Monday he is dead by Wednesday. It is that simple. People got shot just for printing pamphlets criticising the regime.

1. Beating up women was an allegation, from what I've learnt. Not that I like to excuse either, but since so many people are willing to excuse the "social confines" of racism at the time (Jeffries doesn't defend against blacks? Blah, they were racist times), why not misogynism too? Besides, even if it did happen, it was behind closed doors - What I'm referring to is the social statements Jack Johnson made. Banging plenty of white women, flaunting his wealth and status, things that showed his lifestyle wouldn't be affected by the colour of his skin.

2. Had Joe Louis never existed, do you think we'd still be living in a largely racist society? Of course not. The moral trend has changed, regardless of what Joe Louis or Jack Johnson did or did not do. Moral trends are as arbitrary as trends in the fashion industry.

3. Yes, Joe Louis' behaviour paved the way for other black fighters of that era to be given an opportunity, and he deserves credit for that. But I would respect him more if he insisted black men were equal to the white man, rather than disgracing himself by not celebrating knocking out white opponents, as if saying the black man didn't have the right to do so. Jack Johnson insisted on equality - Joe Louis insisted on acceptance. Obviously, acceptance was received a lot better. But acceptance is still a fucking disgrace, Jack Johnson had the right idea in his mind all along. Joe Louis didn't mind the fact that Jesse Owens could win four gold medals, not be allowed to meet the President, and then be forced to sit at the back of the bus like a piece of shit.

4. Schmeling had regular lunches and dinners with Hitler, ran errands for him, spoke to him on the phone, and even perpetuated his pathetic Nazi aryan race propaganda in the leadup to the 2nd Joe Louis fight saying a black man could never beat him.

Schmeling lived in America. He didn't have to start a mutiny against Hitler, but surely it wasn't neccessary to suck the cock of a man so evil to that extent. He did the smart thing, not the courageous thing.

[JimboDs]

Alexis Arguello was the nicest fighter I ever was able to meet. Surprisingly, Aaron Pryor was pretty cool too.

[Marvelous Marcum]

[quote=janitor][quote]

But I would respect him more if he insisted black men were equal to the white man, rather than disgracing himself by not celebrating knocking out white opponents, as if saying the black man didn't have the right to do so.


Chill Malcolm.

[sjc]

Tommy Hearns seems like a nice guy

[janitor]

[quote=Sizzle][quote=janitor][quote]


1. Beating up women was an allegation, from what I've learnt. Not that I like to excuse either, but since so many people are willing to excuse the "social confines" of racism at the time (Jeffries doesn't defend against blacks? Blah, they were racist times), why not misogynism too? Besides, even if it did happen, it was behind closed doors -


Johnson was involved in frequent public brawls somtimes over the most trivial matters. He was not a good or moral man by any definition.


What I'm referring to is the social statements Jack Johnson made. Banging plenty of white women, flaunting his wealth and status, things that showed his lifestyle wouldn't be affected by the colour of his skin.


He did those things for himself.

Not for the good of other black people.

He had a historic oportunity to make a diferenc and he blew it.

Is it fair to criticise him for this?

Maybe not.

But lets not make a saint out of a sinner here. He was a vain and selfish man who set black athletes back two decades. His most earnest whym was that their would never be another black heavyweight champion because that was what made him unique.


2. Had Joe Louis never existed, do you think we'd still be living in a largely racist society? Of course not. The moral trend has changed, regardless of what Joe Louis or Jack Johnson did or did not do. Moral trends are as arbitrary as trends in the fashion industry.


When Joe Louis came along all major sports were segregated and black boxers were never alowed to fight for the heavyweight title.

When he retired all major sports were desegregated and the two men fighting for his vacant crown were both black.

Joe Louis more than any other athlete made this happen. That is the historic reality.

3. Yes, Joe Louis' behaviour paved the way for other black fighters of that era to be given an opportunity, and he deserves credit for that. But I would respect him more if he insisted black men were equal to the white man,

Joe Louis did a lot to force equal rights.

He got facilities in the US army desegregated during the war.

He took defences against black challengers against the wishes of his managment.

He lobied congress on behalf of the civil rights movment in the 60s.

I consider that to be a better atempt at insisteng that black men are equal than humiliating white oponents, wraping gauze around your penis and refusing to defend against black challengers.

rather than disgracing himself by not celebrating knocking out white opponents,

What is so bad about showing respect to a fallen oponent regardless of colour?

Jack Johnson insisted on equality -

He insisted on equality for himself.

For everybody else of his race he either didnt give a damn or even wanted them to stay at the bottom of the pile to diferentiate his own position.

Joe Louis insisted on acceptance. Obviously, acceptance was received a lot better. But acceptance is still a fucking disgrace,

Louis beleived in desegregation and reconciliation. He believed that the way to achieve these things was by a diplomatic aproach. Turns out he was right.

Johnsons aproach might be more intrinsicaly satisfying but it was the wrong aproach for everybody but himself. How diferent might it have been for men like Sam Langford if they had a black champion who would not only fight them but create a climate where they would be accepted after he retired.


Jack Johnson had the right idea in his mind all along. Joe Louis didn't mind the fact that Jesse Owens could win four gold medals, not be allowed to meet the President, and then be forced to sit at the back of the bus like a piece of shit.


It grated on him every day of his life if his own testimony is to be believed. He just had a realistic estimation of how he could make progress. By diplomacy rather than confrontation.

4. Schmeling had regular lunches and dinners with Hitler, ran errands for him, spoke to him on the phone,

These were not invitations that you could readily refuse at the time.


and even perpetuated his pathetic Nazi aryan race propaganda in the leadup to the 2nd Joe Louis fight saying a black man could never beat him.


He didn't actualy. German papers quoted him as saying this but he always denied it. Schmeling told Jessie Owens at the 1936 olympics (after he had defeated Louis) that Louis was going to be one of the greatest champions of all time.


Schmeling lived in America. He didn't have to start a mutiny against Hitler, but surely it wasn't neccessary to suck the cock of a man so evil to that extent. He did the smart thing, not the courageous thing


Schmeling lived in Germany most of the time and when he traveled abroad they made sure that his wife did not go with him at least laterly. At the time of the second Louis fight she was under virtual house arest.

You dont seem to understand that anybody who criticised hitler whatever their previous service to the party had a verry short existence. They even shot 13 year old girls for handing out pamphlets criticising Hitler. Schmeling probably went much further than was advisable by refusing a storm troopers dagger of honour, openly associating with jews and refusing to endoers Hitlers writings on boxing.

Also consider that a man like Schmeling is a much better propaganda tool dead than alive. The ideal scenario for the natzis in hindsight would be if Schmeling had died after the first Louis fight. Then he would always be the man who would have Louis's number, any identity could be printed on him by the regime, and he could not say anything against them or even be humanly falible.

[Sizzle]

[quote]
[quote=Sizzle][quote=janitor]

Johnson was involved in frequent public brawls somtimes over the most trivial matters. He was not a good or moral man by any definition.



He did those things for himself.

Not for the good of other black people.

He had a historic oportunity to make a diferenc and he blew it.

Is it fair to criticise him for this?

Maybe not.

But lets not make a saint out of a sinner here. He was a vain and selfish man who set black athletes back two decades. His most earnest whym was that their would never be another black heavyweight champion because that was what made him unique.



When Joe Louis came along all major sports were segregated and black boxers were never alowed to fight for the heavyweight title.

When he retired all major sports were desegregated and the two men fighting for his vacant crown were both black.

Joe Louis more than any other athlete made this happen. That is the historic reality.



Joe Louis did a lot to force equal rights.

He got facilities in the US army desegregated during the war.

He took defences against black challengers against the wishes of his managment.

He lobied congress on behalf of the civil rights movment in the 60s.

I consider that to be a better atempt at insisteng that black men are equal than humiliating white oponents, wraping gauze around your penis and refusing to defend against black challengers.



What is so bad about showing respect to a fallen oponent regardless of colour?



He insisted on equality for himself.

For everybody else of his race he either didnt give a damn or even wanted them to stay at the bottom of the pile to diferentiate his own position.



Louis beleived in desegregation and reconciliation. He believed that the way to achieve these things was by a diplomatic aproach. Turns out he was right.

Johnsons aproach might be more intrinsicaly satisfying but it was the wrong aproach for everybody but himself. How diferent might it have been for men like Sam Langford if they had a black champion who would not only fight them but create a climate where they would be accepted after he retired.



It grated on him every day of his life if his own testimony is to be believed. He just had a realistic estimation of how he could make progress. By diplomacy rather than confrontation.



These were not invitations that you could readily refuse at the time.



He didn't actualy. German papers quoted him as saying this but he always denied it. Schmeling told Jessie Owens at the 1936 olympics (after he had defeated Louis) that Louis was going to be one of the greatest champions of all time.



Schmeling lived in Germany most of the time and when he traveled abroad they made sure that his wife did not go with him at least laterly. At the time of the second Louis fight she was under virtual house arest.

You dont seem to understand that anybody who criticised hitler whatever their previous service to the party had a verry short existence. They even shot 13 year old girls for handing out pamphlets criticising Hitler. Schmeling probably went much further than was advisable by refusing a storm troopers dagger of honour, openly associating with jews and refusing to endoers Hitlers writings on boxing.

Also consider that a man like Schmeling is a much better propaganda tool dead than alive. The ideal scenario for the natzis in hindsight would be if Schmeling had died after the first Louis fight. Then he would always be the man who would have Louis's number, any identity could be printed on him by the regime, and he could not say anything against them or even be humanly falible.

1. Joe Louis was also involved in public brawls. Remember he and Ray getting into a beef with a military police officer? Big fucking whoop. Not everyone who is involved in public brawls is immoral. Joe Louis also cheated on his wife incessantly and beat one to a pulp. How moral is that?

2. Yeh, Johnson did things for himself. So did Joe Louis. He followed Jack Blackburns instructions on how to act so he could get a World title shot, and once in this position of power really did little to seek equality. Jack Johnson felt equal to the white man and acted in such a way which reflected that. Why the hell should he behave the way society DEMANDS HE DOES, just because of his skin colour?
I think it's borderline sickening that you try to blame Johnson for black people being lynched due to Johnson acting flamboyantly in the ring. Why not blame, UM, the PEOPLE WHO LYNCHED THEM!?! They're the fuckwits.

3. Jack Johnson dispelled the myth of white athletic supremacy - Yeh, he fought for the World title "for himself", but the victory reflects admirably on his race. It changed the way many people viewed negros. This is what angered them the most.

4. Like I said, I do give Louis credit for opening the doors to other black boxers of that time, but his approach to civil rights was always too passive - And this when the papers were printing some horrifying things about him, just because he was a black man winning fights. I can't view this as courage, regardless of how you spin it. Every man has the god given right to stand up for himself. Whether he choses to do so, is up to him.

5. You may have swayed me on the Schmeling argument - I'll still maintain he could have made more of a stand, but you've convinced me it would not have been reasonable, and perhaps altogether foolish. He was too intelligent to martyr himself.
Also, on the topic of that quote, most sources I've checked out indicate it motivated Louis, and that there was no immediate denial from Schmeling - Can you find me a source which suggests otherwise?

[McGrain]

Didn't he also walk through the streets of New York with large wild cats, shooting guns randomly? Or am I thinking of someone else? Or has my lack of historical knowledge led this sarcasm to fail miserably on me?


Oh, he was definitley mad. Just nice with it. Like Bruce Forsyth.

[My dinner with Conteh]

[quote=janitor][quote] rather than disgracing himself by not celebrating knocking out white opponents, as if saying the black man didn't have the right to do so.


Are you this boring in real life?

[McGrain]

Are you this boring in real life?

:lol: :lol:

[janitor]

[quote=Sizzle]
1. Joe Louis was also involved in public brawls. Remember he and Ray getting into a beef with a military police officer? Big fucking whoop. Not everyone who is involved in public brawls is immoral.


The only ocasion on record where Louis was involved in a public brawl was when he defended himself against a racist military policeman who asulted him. The MP was reprimanded over the incident.


Joe Louis also cheated on his wife incessantly and beat one to a pulp. How moral is that?


He was certainly a serial adulterer but there is no evidence of him asulting any of his wives.

On either score there is a lot more dirt on Johnson.

2. Yeh, Johnson did things for himself. So did Joe Louis. He followed Jack Blackburns instructions on how to act so he could get a World title shot, and once in this position of power really did little to seek equality.

I have already listed various pro active things that Louis did to advance the cause of civil rights. Johnson for contrast did nothing that I am aware of.


Jack Johnson felt equal to the white man and acted in such a way which reflected that. Why the hell should he behave the way society DEMANDS HE DOES, just because of his skin colour?


Because of the concequences for others.

Why dose a police officer negotiate with a man with a gun?

Is it because the man with the gun has a moral case?

No it is because he can use it on inocent people.


I think it's borderline sickening that you try to blame Johnson for black people being lynched due to Johnson acting flamboyantly in the ring. Why not blame, UM, the PEOPLE WHO LYNCHED THEM!?! They're the fuckwits.


Of course they are. But Johnson knew that this was a likley concequence of his humiliating white oponents and he did it anyway.

3. Jack Johnson dispelled the myth of white athletic supremacy - Yeh, he fought for the World title "for himself", but the victory reflects admirably on his race.

Sure. Shame he didnt also display superiority over the top black fighters of the period as well.


It changed the way many people viewed negros. This is what angered them the most.


It reinforced the steriotype of negros as being brutish and amoral.

4. Like I said, I do give Louis credit for opening the doors to other black boxers of that time,

How disarmingly generous of you.

but his approach to civil rights was always too passive -

You seem to value confrontation over efectivness here. Louis just did what needed to be done. You are asking him to do something that would be less efective but more satisfying for you personaly.


And this when the papers were printing some horrifying things about him, just because he was a black man winning fights. I can't view this as courage, regardless of how you spin it. Every man has the god given right to stand up for himself. Whether he choses to do so, is up to him.


What he did about it was to prove them wrong in such a way that even his most poisonous critics had to take notice.

That is a lot harder and requires a lot more courage than going off the rails and ranting against them.


5. You may have swayed me on the Schmeling argument - I'll still maintain he could have made more of a stand, but you've convinced me it would not have been reasonable, and perhaps altogether foolish. He was too intelligent to martyr himself.
Also, on the topic of that quote, most sources I've checked out indicate it motivated Louis, and that there was no immediate denial from Schmeling - Can you find me a source which suggests otherwise?


Schmeling said to Louis privately that he did not say it. The only evidence for him saying it comes from the German papers of the day so neither source is 100% watertight.

Even if schmeling did say it he might have been put under pressure to do so.

[Sizzle]

[quote]


The only ocasion on record where Louis was involved in a public brawl was when he defended himself against a racist military policeman who asulted him. The MP was reprimanded over the incident.



He was certainly a serial adulterer but there is no evidence of him asulting any of his wives.

On either score there is a lot more dirt on Johnson.



I have already listed various pro active things that Louis did to advance the cause of civil rights. Johnson for contrast did nothing that I am aware of.



Because of the concequences for others.

Why dose a police officer negotiate with a man with a gun?

Is it because the man with the gun has a moral case?

No it is because he can use it on inocent people.



Of course they are. But Johnson knew that this was a likley concequence of his humiliating white oponents and he did it anyway.



Sure. Shame he didnt also display superiority over the top black fighters of the period as well.



It reinforced the steriotype of negros as being brutish and amoral.



How disarmingly generous of you.



You seem to value confrontation over efectivness here. Louis just did what needed to be done. You are asking him to do something that would be less efective but more satisfying for you personaly.



What he did about it was to prove them wrong in such a way that even his most poisonous critics had to take notice.

That is a lot harder and requires a lot more courage than going off the rails and ranting against them.



Schmeling said to Louis privately that he did not say it. The only evidence for him saying it comes from the German papers of the day so neither source is 100% watertight.

Even if schmeling did say it he might have been put under pressure to do so.

1. Yeh, that was the one I was referring to. So both Joe Louis and Jack Johnson have been involved in public brawls.

2. Joe Louis assaulted one of his lovers Lena Turner. Almost choked her to death, he confessed to it. FACT.

3. Jack Johnson didn't let the ridiculous social expectations influence his behaviour. As a result, his life was at risk everytime he entered the ring. It's not confrontation I admire, it's courage. It took courage from Jack Johnson to take on the world the way he did, whether it did an awful lot for race relations or not. Jack Johnson was a man of principal, and was hated moreso for the fact that he was whooping the "athletically superior" whites, than for the fact he was flamboyant and promiscuous.
You speak as if you expect him to retire due to the possibility of black men being murdered as a consequence of his victory? That's preposterous. He wasn't prepared to let racist ideals dictate his life.

4. Now you're beginning to discuss Jack Johnsons exploits in the ring, which is another matter entirely.

5. I'm not asking Louis to do anything. I'm merely outlining the difference between his behaviour and Jack Johnsons. Louis was conformist, Johnson was not. As Muhammad Ali has stated, Louis was undemanding and compliant in the race war.
He rarely voiced his disapproval of racism, and that minor instance with the segregation of the army (which would've occurred eventually anyway) is the only thing he ever contributed. I really don't think Joe stood up for what he believed in. He didn't want to upset anybody.

6. I absolutely agree Schmeling would've been put under pressure to say it - That was my original point.

[Sizzle]

[quote=Sizzle][quote=janitor]


Are you this boring in real life?

Yes.

[janitor]

[quote=Sizzle][quote=janitor]

1. Yeh, that was the one I was referring to. So both Joe Louis and Jack Johnson have been involved in public brawls.


There is a big diference between defending yoursef against a racist MP with a batton and beating up some bell boy for mishandeling your suitcase, or beating up your manager in a dispute over money, or beating up an auto mechanic because you dont like the price he charges.


2. Joe Louis assaulted one of his lovers Lena Turner. Almost choked her to death, he confessed to it. FACT.


I am aware of this incident and it dose not reflect on him with any credit.

It is important to put it in context however. Did miss Turner sustain any injuries to justify the asertion that she was nearly choked to death.

It is legitimate to ask because Jack Johnsons wife spent a week in hospital after sombody beat her up.

3. Jack Johnson didn't let the ridiculous social expectations influence his behaviour. As a result, his life was at risk everytime he entered the ring. It's not confrontation I admire, it's courage. It took courage from Jack Johnson to take on the world the way he did, whether it did an awful lot for race relations or not.

Yes Johnson was brave.

That is about the only positive thing you can say about what he did. Beyond that he was totaly self serving.

Jack Johnson was a man of principal,

He was about as far from being a man of principle as you can get.

His only principle was

"If you get betweenme and what I want you are going down black or white"


and was hated moreso for the fact that he was whooping the "athletically superior" whites, than for the fact he was flamboyant and promiscuous.


Some sources white owned papers were quite sympathetic towards Johnson before he won the title. Less so afterwards.

You speak as if you expect him to retire due to the possibility of black men being murdered as a consequence of his victory?

No he should have tried to minimise any backlash by treating his oponents respectfully in the ring and conducting himself corectly in public.


4. Now you're beginning to discuss Jack Johnsons exploits in the ring, which is another matter entirely.


Not at all.

Louis actively tried to make oportunities for black contenders even fighting them against the wishes of his managment at times. Johnson did not give a damn about them and was concequently hated by them.


5. I'm not asking Louis to do anything. I'm merely outlining the difference between his behaviour and Jack Johnsons. Louis was conformist, Johnson was not. As Muhammad Ali has stated, Louis was undemanding and compliant in the race war.


Mate if there had been a race war it would have been a verry short and one sided war and the winner would have been a bit of a no brainer.

Race war.

What you did have was a civil rights strugle that would not be resolved by men like Johnson or Ali but by diplomats like Louis. That is not conformist it is just pragmatic.

Perhaps you think Louis would have been doing something positive if he had humiliated his oponents or joined a racist religeous group.

He rarely voiced his disapproval of racism, and that minor instance with the segregation of the army (which would've occurred eventually anyway) is the only thing he ever contributed.

That is a damn site more than Johnson ever did by the way.

No it is not the only thing he contributed.

He lobied congress after the race riots in the 60s asking them to adress the concearns of black people while Muhamad Ali was in the NOI.


6. I absolutely agree Schmeling would've been put under pressure to say it - That was my original point.


You seem to have quite a niaeve view about what pressure means in this context.

[ChrisPontius]

Janitor KO1 Sizzle

[Shake]

I disqualify both.

[godking]

Inside and outside the ring?

My vote would be maybe joe LouisA nice fighter is an Oxymoron.

A professional fighter is paid to HURT his opponent.

[Bill1234]

Sounds like he's sound with you and sounds like a reasonable guy, but if you mention him in this thread seriously you have to mention every fighter that there ever was that didn't rape somebody basically.

Larry ever talk to you about his fights? Or his own jab, the technical side of it?

Yeah, he talked about his fight with Cooney a little, and he taught me the jab. He also showed how to avoid getting hit with a left hook while throwing a jab, and what to do if some one is bobbing and weaving...aim for their chest and they will walk right into your punch. He tried to teach me foot work too...didn't work. I have terrible rythm, and it shows in my foot work. Imagine Marciano walking for wards behind a slow Larry Holmes style jab coming from cheek bone level, and you got my style.

[RafaelGonzal]

Arguello and Patterson

[Sizzle]

[quote]
[quote=Sizzle]

There is a big diference between defending yoursef against a racist MP with a batton and beating up some bell boy for mishandeling your suitcase, or beating up your manager in a dispute over money, or beating up an auto mechanic because you dont like the price he charges.



I am aware of this incident and it dose not reflect on him with any credit.

It is important to put it in context however. Did miss Turner sustain any injuries to justify the asertion that she was nearly choked to death.

It is legitimate to ask because Jack Johnsons wife spent a week in hospital after sombody beat her up.



Yes Johnson was brave.

That is about the only positive thing you can say about what he did. Beyond that he was totaly self serving.



He was about as far from being a man of principle as you can get.

His only principle was

"If you get betweenme and what I want you are going down black or white"



Some sources white owned papers were quite sympathetic towards Johnson before he won the title. Less so afterwards.



No he should have tried to minimise any backlash by treating his oponents respectfully in the ring and conducting himself corectly in public.



Not at all.

Louis actively tried to make oportunities for black contenders even fighting them against the wishes of his managment at times. Johnson did not give a damn about them and was concequently hated by them.



Mate if there had been a race war it would have been a verry short and one sided war and the winner would have been a bit of a no brainer.

Race war.

What you did have was a civil rights strugle that would not be resolved by men like Johnson or Ali but by diplomats like Louis. That is not conformist it is just pragmatic.

Perhaps you think Louis would have been doing something positive if he had humiliated his oponents or joined a racist religeous group.



That is a damn site more than Johnson ever did by the way.

No it is not the only thing he contributed.

He lobied congress after the race riots in the 60s asking them to adress the concearns of black people while Muhamad Ali was in the NOI.



You seem to have quite a niaeve view about what pressure means in this context.

1. I'm beginning to forget what the original argument was here? If you're trying to argue Joe Louis was nicer than Jack Johnson I would agree with you, I'm not disputing that, but Joe Louis is no saint. And I have a much greater respect for Johnsons attitude outside the ring than Louis'

2. "I got chills because I realise I could've committed murder. I never got such a feeling" - Joe Louis
It was fortunate Lena's Aunt immediately burst into the hotel room otherwise Joe Louis, by his own admission, could be being remembered as a murderer.

3.Principle: 1.an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct
It seems to me Johnson was pretty consistent, honest and determined with his approach to life, whether you considered them moral or not.

4. No he shouldn't have conformed to racist ideals and not celebrated defeating white opponents. WHy don't you go one step further and say he was black, therefore he had no right to fight for the title at all, and by doing so endangered his race and thus should NEVER have pursued the heavyweight title? There were mass race riots all throughout America just because he defeated Burns. This wasn't his fault. Society was to blame. He was just a black man with ambition, which wasn't to be accepted.

5. You know what I mean by "race war". Civil rights issue. Black people striving for equality.

6. Maybe humiliating opponents and becoming a muslim wasn't Joe Louis. But I tell you what, what we saw in the ring wasn't Joe Louis either. It was a man behaving the way Jack Blackburn recommended (perhaps insisted) he behave to appease the white people.

7. Wow, he asked congress to address the concerns of black people? And you have to wonder how he managed to avoid being assassinated with such courageous behaviour.
Excerpt from Patrick Myler, a true ball licker of Joe Louis;
"Louis had never been a vocal opponent of racism. He did make a minor stand against segregation in the army during the war, but he was always wary of offending whites. He obeyed their commandments (his trainers) to the letter."

8. Erm, I agree with you and you call me naive? You just love to argue don't you?

[Sizzle]

Janitor KO1 Sizzle

I'm not surprised the average boxing fan can't stand to have anything negative said about Joe Louis, who was incredible in the ring, but less so out of it.

[brooklyn1550]

Milton McCrory

[ChrisPontius]

I'm not surprised the average boxing fan can't stand to have anything negative said about Joe Louis, who was incredible in the ring, but less so out of it.

Yawn.

[janitor]

[quote=Sizzle]
1. I'm beginning to forget what the original argument was here? If you're trying to argue Joe Louis was nicer than Jack Johnson I would agree with you, I'm not disputing that, but Joe Louis is no saint. And I have a much greater respect for Johnsons attitude outside the ring than Louis'


No

I am arguing that Louis achieved far more for black athletes outside the ring. I am not arguing that he was a saint. Just the athlete that did the most to desegregated sports in America.

To argue that Johnsons atitude outside the ring was better is frankly preposterous.


3.Principle: 1.an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct
It seems to me Johnson was pretty consistent, honest and determined with his approach to life, whether you considered them moral or not.


You could argue that Jack the ripper was consistent in his aproach to life but it dose not make him right. Johnson was certainly consistent to the extent that he looked out for Jack Johnson above all else.

Bottom line is that Johnson only cared about predudice when it was aplied to him. He was quite happy to referre battle royales where hungry black men fought each other for a handfull of loose change. He was quite happy to draw the colour bar when it suited him.

4. No he shouldn't have conformed to racist ideals and not celebrated defeating white opponents.

What is wrong with showing respect to a defeated oponent?

It is not like he danced the jig whenever he knocked out a black oponent.


WHy don't you go one step further and say he was black, therefore he had no right to fight for the title at all, and by doing so endangered his race and thus should NEVER have pursued the heavyweight title? There were mass race riots all throughout America just because he defeated Burns. This wasn't his fault. Society was to blame. He was just a black man with ambition, which wasn't to be accepted.


At the verry least he should have tried to minimise the backlash rather than agrevate it. If a man with a gun is holding a bank full of people hostage then of course he is to blame if he shoots them but it dose not mean that you are behaving responsibly by trying to agrevate him.


5. You know what I mean by "race war". Civil rights issue. Black people striving for equality.


But that is exactly where you are going wrong here.

You want a "race war" which is unwinable because it is intrinsicaly more satisfying to you. To get results in anything you have to be pragmatic and it dose not always involve doing what feels satisfying to you personaly.


6. Maybe humiliating opponents and becoming a muslim wasn't Joe Louis. But I tell you what, what we saw in the ring wasn't Joe Louis either. It was a man behaving the way Jack Blackburn recommended (perhaps insisted) he behave to appease the white people.


If Louis had behaved like Jack Johnson he might never have been champion and the colour bar might have remained in place untill the 60s. That was the reality that he was dealing with.

I am curious to know how you think he might have got a better result by doing things diferently?


7. Wow, he asked congress to address the concerns of black people? And you have to wonder how he managed to avoid being assassinated with such courageous behaviour.


That is a damn sight more than Jack Johnson ever did incidentaly.


Excerpt from Patrick Myler, a true ball licker of Joe Louis;
"Louis had never been a vocal opponent of racism. He did make a minor stand against segregation in the army during the war, but he was always wary of offending whites. He obeyed their commandments (his trainers) to the letter."


I dont agree with this asesment at all. Louis was involved quite extensivley in the civil rights movment in the 60s and regularly apeared at demonstrations. What emerges from Louis's writings and private correspendence is that he believed in a gradualist aproach to civil rights. Demonstrations not riots. The athletes who boycoted the olympics could have made more progress by being seen to win.

Whether you agree with his thesis or not he got results.


8. Erm, I agree with you and you call me naive? You just love to argue don't you?


Mate you are still arily talking about Schmeling making a bit of a stand and not sucumbing to pressure. You need to research the history of the third reich a little methinks.

The Jack Johnsons of Natzi Germany were liquidated in the first few months leaving cooler heads to carry on the strugle behind closed doors. You would do well to take note of this.

[Rattler]

Micky Ward

[RockyJim]

I met Marciano at The Brockton fair as a kid......very nice!
Met Jack Dempsey at his place in NYC.....very friendly!!
Met Marvin Hagler...nice guy......

[Luigi1985]

I met Marciano at The Brockton fair as a kid......very nice!
Met Jack Dempsey at his place in NYC.....very friendly!!
Met Marvin Hagler...nice guy......


May I ask you how old you´re?

[young griffo]

I've just been watching "The Contender" and Sam Soliman would have to be one of the most genuinely nice people that's ever graced boxing.

Not a great fighter but an ATG champion person.

[AnthonyJ74]

[quote]


He was not afraid of being rejected socialy he was afraid of the wider concequences for others. It is people like Jack Johnson who do not face up to the concequences of their actions for others and the responsibilities they carry who are the real cowards.

Remember that it was Louis who broke the colour bar down not Johnson or Ali or any of the fire brand types.



He literaly put his life on the line to help Jews escape from Germany. If his activities had been detected he would verry likley have ended up in a concentration camp. As it was he was drafted despite being over the age limit for the draft.

Just what exactly would you have expected him to do?

Wasn't Joe Louis known for smacking around women throughout his life?

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]

Wasn't Joe Louis known for smacking around women throughout his life?

Not really.

He bloted his copy book rather with the Lana Turner incident but that was more a crime of pasion than a conventional case of domestic abuse.

Kind of like when sombody snaps and throws a carving knife at their spouse.

[JohnThomas1]

[quote=AnthonyJ74]

Not really.

He bloted his copy book rather with the Lana Turner incident but that was more a crime of pasion than a conventional case of domestic abuse.

Kind of like when sombody snaps and throws a carving knife at their spouse.

janitor, not to be cheeky BUT


When you quote someone simply make sure you put your cursor OUTSIDE the quoted matter when then replying. I'll do a dummy run

(quote) When you quote someone simply make sure you put your cursor OUTSIDE the quoted matter when then replying. I'll do a dummy run (quote) "X" <---Put cursor where "X" is then type mate.

Just trying to stop some confusion. Feel free to use my matter as a trial run.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]

janitor, not to be cheeky BUT


When you quote someone simply make sure you put your cursor OUTSIDE the quoted matter when then replying. I'll do a dummy run

(quote) When you quote someone simply make sure you put your cursor OUTSIDE the quoted matter when then replying. I'll do a dummy run (quote) "X" <---Put cursor where "X" is then type mate.

Just trying to stop some confusion. Feel free to use my matter as a trial run.


How is that???????????????

[JohnThomas1]

[quote]


How is that???????????????
Hmmmm lol

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]
Hmmmm lol

This?????????????

[JohnThomas1]

[quote=JohnThomas1]

This?????????????

How are you getting your name to my words.

[JohnThomas1]

And now i do it lmao, better mate for sure.

[AnthonyJ74]

[quote=AnthonyJ74]

Not really.

He bloted his copy book rather with the Lana Turner incident but that was more a crime of pasion than a conventional case of domestic abuse.

Kind of like when sombody snaps and throws a carving knife at their spouse.

Lana Turner? Didn't Louis admit that one of his best punches ever thrown was against one of his girlfriends who refused to caddy for him while playing golf or something like that. That girlfriend was a famous singer I think...I just can't think of her name.

[OLD FOGEY]

[quote=janitor]

Lana Turner? Didn't Louis admit that one of his best punches ever thrown was against one of his girlfriends who refused to caddy for him while playing golf or something like that. That girlfriend was a famous singer I think...I just can't think of her name.

Lena Horne--I heard her discuss a bad incident with Louis on TV.

[ThinBlack]

Alexis Arguello, definitely.Based on what I've read from several of his contemporaries and ex-opponents, Greg Page is up there as well.

[SenorRamirez]

Alexis Arguello was the nicest fighter.
:good
Juan Manuel Marquez & Erik Morales are very nice 2 :rasta

[JWSoats]

I'll just comment on the fighters I have met - Jersey Joe Walcott, Rocky Graziano, Floyd Patterson, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Shannon Briggs, and Chuck Wepner were all very pleasant, friendly, and approachable. Floyd Patterson engaged in a conversation as did Chuck Wepner.

Also, to my surprise, Roberto Duran was quite friendly when I met him at the Larry Holmes training center in the early 80s.

[BUDW]

Floyd Patterson

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

Eder Jofre

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Flo_Raiden]

Manny Pacquiao, Nonito Donaire, Andre Ward, W Klitschko, and Lucian Bute seem very chill people from interviews I've seen.

Rocky Marciano and Ricardo Lopez deserve mentioning.:bbb

[D9Garrard]

Best person I ever met anywhere around boxing was a journeyman fighter named Gary Gamble who fought Boza Edwards on Sportsworld once upon a time. Just a wonderful guy who was always willing to help the kids and the no-hopers at the Indy PAL with encouragement and tips. Same with Champ Chaney, Marvin Johnson's trainer, who was like a pastor in how he carried himself.

[Lunny]

I'll just comment on the fighters I have met - Jersey Joe Walcott, Rocky Graziano, Floyd Patterson, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Shannon Briggs, and Chuck Wepner were all very pleasant, friendly, and approachable. Floyd Patterson engaged in a conversation as did Chuck Wepner.

Also, to my surprise, Roberto Duran was quite friendly when I met him at the Larry Holmes training center in the early 80s.

You met Walcott? Tell the tale

[Flea Man]

Boza Edwards.

[teeto]

shit i dunno

I know Arguello wasn't ALWAYS nice because he even admitted he that monster in him that came out when he fought, but he was a total role model in my personal opinion, I wrote a poem about him.

He is my vote.

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

Old George Foreman was a very nice guy......

[JWSoats]

You met Walcott? Tell the tale

Back in July, 1978 there was an amateur boxing show held at the VFW building in Brick, NJ, where I lived at the time. Slated to appear as special guests were Jack Dempsey and Jersey Joe Walcott. Due to illness, Dempsey was unable to appear, so Rocky Graziano took his place. My father and I went to the event, and we took numerous pictures with both of them. I had just sent Jersey Joe a picture in care of the Camden sheriff's office with a stamped, self-addressed envelope asking him to autograph it for me. He did, and I told him about sending the picture. He said that he gets a lot of such requests, and asked if I had received the picture back. I thanked him and told him that I did. Funny thing about the pictures we took - about a week earlier while warming up for our men's league softball game, the ball popped out of my glove, striking me in the eye. No damage done except a real nice shiner. By the time of the boxing show, I still had a fair amount of it left. So it added some "color" to the pictures. Walcott refereed one of the amateur bouts that night. He was a very quiet, soft-spoken man and very accommodating for pictures and autographs. He did not appear physically as big as I had expected, but still looked like he could go 15 in spite of his 65 years.

A funny incident happened that same night concerning my father and Rocky Graziano. There was a line of people formed to get Graziano's autograph. My father, who was a couple years older than Rocky, stood in a line of kids, all of whom looked pre-teen. When it came my father's turn, he said, "Rocky, could I get your autograph?" Graziano growled "NO" then they both burst out laughing. He signed the autograph for dad, and later I asked him if he would pose for a picture with my father. He looked at dad, literally ran over to him and threw his arm around him as if he had just seen a long lost friend. What a fantastic picture that made! Also in attendance that night was Steve Dudas, a contender from the 30s and 40s who fought both Schmeling and Walcott, and later a maintenance man at my high school. That was truly an evening of fond memories.

[red cobra]

Tommy Loughran was also by all accounts a very nice man. He never hurt anybody with his style and lack of punching power as well. He had lunch with Max Baer after being in the ring with him..he advised Baer and even tried to teach him things. He was a good Catholic as well and seemed like an overall good chap.
Ezzard Charles was to me a very good man, a very decent guy in a very hard profession.
Emile Griffith also seemed like a very nice guy.as well as Nino Benvenuti, who often visited Carlos Monzon in prison.

[red cobra]

shit i dunno

I know Arguello wasn't ALWAYS nice because he even admitted he that monster in him that came out when he fought, but he was a total role model in my personal opinion, I wrote a poem about him.

He is my vote.
:deal

[Squire]

Bruno and Eubank both come across as class acts, in very different ways.

By all accounts Wlad Klitschko too. Probably the major reason I like him as a fighter

[red cobra]

Schmeling has only of late escaped the awful rep he was saddled in earlier days..as a Nazi and worse. His 1st fight with Louis was always played down in earlier days, but lately it seems he's gotten credit for the strategic, courageous masterpiece that it really was. he was a very decent guy with a world of personal courage.

[Stevie G]

That was my pick.
And mine :D

[frankenfrank]

Carl Williams deserves a mention

[janitor]

a buddy of my dad had joe louis throwing shit at him in a road rage incident back in the 1960s

A singular honour.

I mean if you insult Carusso, does he sing Aria for you?

[kingfisher3]

Schmeling has only of late escaped the awful rep he was saddled in earlier days..as a Nazi and worse. His 1st fight with Louis was always played down in earlier days, but lately it seems he's gotten credit for the strategic, courageous masterpiece that it really was. he was a very decent guy with a world of personal courage.

there is an excellent german film about him.

george foreman does not seem nice. blanking everyone during filming a question of sport was classless to the other guests and rude to me as a viewer.

[leverage]

alexis arguello

[boranbkk]

Saohin Srithai Condo, aka Saohin Sor Thanikul, aka Saohin N-Yoko

Not that famous but was a converted Muay Thai fighter who in his prime took Paulie Ayala 12 hard rounds and well passed his prime with a detached retena (?) took an up and coming Jorge Linares 10 rounds.

My reason for posting is he was a guy that every morning once he had finished his training session before he ate would feed all the homless animals at the gym and look after and treat many street dogs with mange (which is pretty grimm in Thailand) out of his own pocket. Even when making weight he'd go out of his way to put you first as a guest in his country and help you everyway he could. A true Buddhist warrior if that makes any sense. No ego, no malice only good thoughts for all those around him he has had a big impact on my memories.

[Bugger]

Johnny Famechon. Class act in and out, genuine and honest. If i live to 100 i dont think i'll hear a bad word uttered against him.

[norfolkinchance]

John conteh is not really a nice guy he knows some very dodgy people and if you fucked him off you would find out he is not as nice as you think.
I would say riicky hatton is easily one of the nicest fighter's of all time, he still lives near his parents, he owns the local pub and is well liked by everyone in the uk and especially the people round the area he lives. He said he would be gutted if people thought that he thought he was better than them and tries to live as normal a life as posible.

there was a story in fhm about john conteh years ago which showed this other side of him as he terrorised some guy whose girlfriend he fancied.

[big man]

Johnny Famechon. Class act in and out, genuine and honest. If i live to 100 i dont think i'll hear a bad word uttered against him.
I'll say one thing against him-It's a pity we can't clone him.

He's a gem.:good

[GoldenHulk]

Saw a documentary on ESPN Classic about Nino Benvenuti, he came across as a nice classy guy.

[punchy]

Max Baer seems a nice guy real shame to see him played like a dickhead in that film.

[Bugger]

I'll say one thing against him-It's a pity we can't clone him.

He's a gem.:good


He certainly is. :good