Willie Pep: Educate me

[Addie]

Obviously I don't know a great deal about Willie Pep, but I've been watching some of his clips on the Internet lately and needless to say, he's damn impressive. Common knowledgable already being that he was a beautiful pure boxer, one of the most elusive targets in big little men history, and I think he had great punching technique too. A pleasure to watch, honestly.

What can the educated people among us tell me about Willie Pep's Featherweight reign? Was his resume particularly stacked? He certainly has one of the most intimidating records in history with 229-11. I don't know how good his opponents were but to fight 8-10 times a year, and too see the distance in most of those fights, and to maintain a record of 229-11 is simply astonishing. Unbelievable.

Tell me about Willie.

[Boxed Ears]

Poor man's Calderon, really.



Oh, I'm sorry. I was just on the general forum. It will take me a few minutes to clear my head of that crap.

[Addie]

Poor man's Calderon, really.



Oh, I'm sorry. I was just on the general forum. It will take me a few minutes to clear my head of that crap.

:lol: You're consistently hilarious.

[Mendoza]

Pep was fast, defensive, and very skilled. Not the biggest hitter in the world.

[Bill Butcher]

His only weakness from all the footage Ive seen & all the things Ive read about Pep was his punch power but in a p4p sense I dont see any fighter in history as a better pure boxer TBH.

He had quick hands, wonderful foot-movement (most of his great defence came from his foot-movement), excellent timing, fantastic jab, pinpoint combinations & was as slippery as an eel even in the tightest of spots.

95% of his prime is missing on video but from the past prime footage, a look at his record & the names on it, it should leave no reasonable person with anything else to think other than Pep being the best ever FW & easily a top 10 p4p fighter (I have him at 3)

It seems like a cliche to say but in all honesty, if Willie Pep was around today he would be the best p4p fighter by some distance & not even the fuckwits in the general could find a fault, he`d be viewed by everybody on the level that the Filipino`s hold Pacquiao.

[teeto]

The footwork and balance is a sight for sore eyes. One of the best one weight men ever, better technically than Ali, but Ali is greater for me. Got a great win in one of the very greatest rivalries ever with Saddler. Has a chance to beat any feather, should be favoured a dam lot of the time.

[GPater11093]

I love this thread, I will bee back

[Stonehands89]

Poor man's Calderon, really.



Oh, I'm sorry. I was just on the general forum. It will take me a few minutes to clear my head of that crap.
Mills Lane, who's pictured in your avatar will be receiving the Boxing Writers' Association of America's James J. Farley Award for "Honesty and Integrity in Boxing."

I can't think of a better man for that award.

[GPater11093]

Right, the thing IMO most people overlook with Pep is his title reign and resume. He is generally regarded as consensus Featherweight number 1, so when you first discover Pep you go along with this beleif, when people look into it abit they say he is lacking in the resume etc... That is utter BS.

Heres a summary I did on his title reign.

Pep was far more consistent and had a long sucessful reign. Pep's reign is only surpassed by Pedroza in length of reign by a couple of months. Throw in his second reign and you arguably have the best and most dominant reign ever in the Featherweights, in fact that aint arguable.

The thing about Pep's reign that people always over look is the competition he faced but you have to consider the division at the time.

There was no unified champ so 2 titles existed NY and NBA. It was abit of a roundabout with Chalky Wright, Joey Archibald and Harry Jaffa for the NY title. The NBA title had Scalzo Lemos and Jackie Wilson competing.

After Pep won the title he added stability to the NY title and defended it four times after beating Chalky Wright, who was considered the best at the weight and favoured to beat Pep, for the title. He beat Bartolo, Wright again and Terranova before unifieing the title by beating Bartolo again.

During Pep's domination as NY Champ the NBA champion was Terranova who beat Callura twice for the title. Then Terranova lost his title to Bartolo who had lost to Willie Pep within a year earlier. Pep then beat Terranova. Bartolo made three defences before trying to unifie with Pep and losing.

After clearing up the ABC's Pep was unified champ and had wins over top contenders Jock Leslie and Humberto Sierra, before losing to Saddler. After regaining from Saddler he went on to make three defences all against top ranked contenders Compo, Riley (Who had beaten Saddler) and Famechon. He then lost the title back to Saddler.

Overrall that reign is amazing it spans a 8 year period (Nov1942-Sept 1950) of which only for five months was Pep not Champion. It included unifieing the title and with 9 sucessful defences over 2 reigns.

Add in his Non-title bouts during the period and you have a near complete domination of an 8 year period. Most of it after suffering in a plane crash.

Here is a list of his Ring magazine ranked opponents Pep fought, this was compiled by Mannasa (in Bold is HOFers), bear in mind there is afew Lightweights in there aswell.

Spider Armstrong
Pedro Hernandez x2
Bobby Ivy
Vince Dell'Orto x2
Bill Speary x2
Allie Stolz
Sal Bartolo x3
Jackie Wilson x2
Willie Roache x2
Willie Joyce
Lulu Constantino
Joey Peralta
Charley Lewis x3
Phil Terranova
Jackie Graves
Lefty LaChance x2
Humberto Sierra x2
Jock Leslie
Miguel Avacedo
Teddy Davis x3
Paddy DeMarco
Eddie Compo
Harold Dade
Charley Riley
Ray Famechon
Bobby Bell x2
Carlos Chavez
Eddie Chavez
Baby Neff Ortiz
Rodolfo Gonzales
Gil Cadilli

Chalky Wright x4
Manuel Ortiz
Sandy Saddler

Now we get to the ability of Pep.

Pep IMO is the best pure boxer there has ever been (between him and Whittaker IMO) He had absoloutly brilliant movement, he used this defensivly as aforementioned by Bill to avoid opponents shots either by getting out of distance, side stepping etc...

However after every defensive manuever with his feet Pep would spring back into range and land his own combinations. Even when just moving around Pep would make a sharp change in direction then glide in witha combiantion of his jab..

His feinting disguised his movements as he feinted well with his upper body to disguise his foot movement. He would move his head one way, step the other then roll his head back under his opponent and be out of their punching range - but still in his. The speed in which he does this is amazing.

His most overlooked side of his ability is his offence. As mentioned by me before Pep would change his direction and come in with fast combinations. He rarely threw single shots, and everything was in bunches - which is in the boxing textbook. Also I feel his power/finishing ability is very underrated, he had some stoppages over top class opponents. Also there is footage of him knocking out Jimmy McAllister with a right hand to the body, brilliant punch. And again that shows Pep was a very good body puncher.



I know this is a bit hobpotched but I'm no thinking right today

[Stonehands89]

Obviously I don't know a great deal about Willie Pep, but I've been watching some of his clips on the Internet lately and needless to say, he's damn impressive. Common knowledgable already being that he was a beautiful pure boxer, one of the most elusive targets in big little men history, and I think he had great punching technique too. A pleasure to watch, honestly.

What can the educated people among us tell me about Willie Pep's Featherweight reign? Was his resume particularly stacked? He certainly has one of the most intimidating records in history with 229-11. I don't know how good his opponents were but to fight 8-10 times a year, and too see the distance in most of those fights, and to maintain a record of 229-11 is simply astonishing. Unbelievable.

Tell me about Willie.
Apologies if you already read this: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

--but if you haven't, it will give you an idea of who and what Willie Pep was.

[Bummy Davis]

for me Willie is top 3 lb for lb along with Greb and SRR

[burt bienstock]

Addie, here is a little info on Willie Pep...First of all there are two Willie Pep's...There was the unhittable Pep ,before his terrible plane crash in 1947..He ,Pep almost lost his life inthe crash and was told he would never be able to box again, but box he did...i saw the pre accident Willie Pep ringside,in 1943 MSG,when he beat a top lightweight contender Allie Stolz, who outweighed Pep by seven pounds...Pep won every round, and we were stunned by his greatness..He was boxings answer to vanishing cream.So fast and elusive.He seemed to have a sixth sense,of his opponents very next move...After the plane crash he lost a little of his quickness, but still outclassed such great boxers of the time as Chalky Wright. Sal Bartola. Willie Joyce,Lulu Constantino, Jackie Wilson,and yes Sandy Saddler once...Sandy Saddler was Pep's toughest opponent Saddler who I saw fight, was a tall, elongated featherweight...He was a cruel puncher,wiry,strong and tricky..At this stage of Peps career,Saddler was able to corner Pep, Rough him up,and Ko Willie a couple of times...But I am sure were Willie Pep ,before Peps Airplane crash.slowed Willie up,Pep would have licked Saddler every time..Of this I am convinced...Willie Pep, had 242 bouts, and next to Ray Robinson, was the best boxer I have ever seen...Hope I gave you some insight Addie...B.B.

[TheGreatA]

It's a shame that there isn't much footage of a prime Pep. The Chalky Wright fight, which was supposedly filmed, would surely reveal a lot about his peak abilities.

I believe his opposition is underrated, mostly because there's little footage of them. Someone like Chalky Wright fought welterweights and middleweights despite not weighing any more than 130 pounds himself, including the avoided welter/middleweight Cocoa Kid whom he fought to a close majority decision. Humberto Sierra gave Saddler a beating, Charley Riley whom Pep KO'd gave Saddler all he could handle, Manuel Ortiz beat everyone in his prime outside of Pep, Willie Joyce had beaten Ike Williams and Henry Armstrong. These were good fighters.

[GPater11093]

It's a shame that there isn't much footage of a prime Pep. The Chalky Wright fight, which was supposedly filmed, would surely reveal a lot about his peak abilities.

I believe his opposition is underrated, mostly because there's little footage of them. Someone like Chalky Wright fought welterweights and middleweights despite not weighing any more than 130 pounds himself, including the avoided welter/middleweight Cocoa Kid to a close majority decision. Humberto Sierra gave Saddler a beating, Charley Riley whom Pep KO'd gave Saddler all he could handle. These were good fighters.

Yes definitly, the era as a whole is underrated because of the lack of footage that would showcase how deep the era actually is. What do you think of Pep's offence?

Have you seen the second McAllister fight footage?

[TheGreatA]

Yes definitly, the era as a whole is underrated because of the lack of footage that would showcase how deep the era actually is. What do you think of Pep's offence?

Have you seen the second McAllister fight footage?

I believe Pep was punching harder than he ever did right before the plane crash accident. In his previous 9 bouts, he had KO'd 8 opponents, including Sal Bartolo, Chalky Wright, Jackie Graves. Of course Pep usually only used his punch during title fights in order to preserve his hands.

I don't have the second Jimmy McAllister fight film at the moment but I've seen parts of it including the KO. Would have to see it again to remember what was going on.

[GPater11093]

I believe Pep was punching harder than he ever did right before the plane crash accident. In his previous 9 bouts, he had KO'd 8 opponents, including Sal Bartolo, Chalky Wright, Jackie Graves. Of course Pep usually only used his punch during title fights in order to preserve his hands.

I don't have the second Jimmy McAllister fight film at the moment but I've seen parts of it including the KO. Would have to see it again to remember what was going on.

Interesting about him hitting harder before the plane crash, will definitly look into that further.

Its only a short 2 min highlight but pep lands a brilliant right hook to the body.

[hoagy]

Poetry in motion and the comeback from the air crash that nearly killed him and his career is only worthy of mention alongside the great golfer Ben Hogan.

Most remember him for winning round 3 against Graves when he "won the round " without throwing a punch.
After retiring Willie sued Sports Illustrated for running a story suggesting that he threw his fight with Perez in '54.Willie lost the lawsuit, the jury deliberating just 15 minutes to decide his fate...