Fights where the official verdict is generally disregarded

[Maxmomer]

For the most part I mean decisions that were so bad that today the official verdict has be overruled by the people and credit is given where it should be, but any other fight results that fit the thread title are welcome also, for example, a BS referee stoppage or DQ, perhaps? Anything where the official ruling was so bad it is largely ignored by the public. Two off the top of my head - Schmeling-Sharkey II, I see many people credit Schmeling with winning this fight and no one ever seems to argue over it. Also, Whitaker-Chavez, most seem to treat this as a Whitaker victory.

[Russell]

Martinez/Cintron.

Ottke/Reid

Lennox Lewis/Holyfield I

Hoya/Trinidad

I a few people that feel this way about some of the Griffin/Luis Manuel Rodriguez fights, if not all.

I don't know if it was raging bull or Mantequilla who said they felt Luis won all four against Emile

[mcvey]

For the most part I mean decisions that were so bad that today the official verdict has be overruled by the people and credit is given where it should be, but any other fight results that fit the thread title are welcome also, for example, a BS referee stoppage or DQ, perhaps? Anything where the official ruling was so bad it is largely ignored by the public. Two off the top of my head - Schmeling-Sharkey II, I see many people credit Schmeling with winning this fight and no one ever seems to argue over it. Also, Whitaker-Chavez, most seem to treat this as a Whitaker victory.

JIM JEFFRIES V JACK JOHNSON.
JIM won the first 10 rds, and then Johnson's brother CLAUDE, put drugged tea in his water bottle,and the noble warrior, the Champion Of Champions succumbed to the dastardly plot.

[IntentionalButt]

Briggs-Foreman
Maxim-Patterson
half of Quartey's losses.

[Russell]

Ramirez/Whitaker I as well.

[PowerPuncher]

Erdei-Garay 1 and 2, even Erdeis own fans were booing the decisions

[Meast]

Recently, Guzman vs Funeka was pretty damn awful...I don't know anyone that watched the fight live think that Guzman deserved a draw.

At least Funeka is getting a rematch anyway.

[bodhi]

Erdei-Garay 1 and 2, even Erdeis own fans were booing the decisions

Both were close fights that could have gone either way, not even close what to what is wanted here. :-(

[Jorodz]

buchanan-velazquez i think qualifies

[PowerPuncher]

Both were close fights that could have gone either way, not even close what to what is wanted here. :-(

The German fanboy makes his appearance, how did I know you'd bite on this 1 :lol:

These fights werent close and were a disgrace. Erdeis own crowd boo'ed the decisions, the people who came to support him. Should have been 9-3 or 8-4 to Garay

[PowerPuncher]

DLH-Sturm
Earl-Vanzie (1 and 2 - I hate it when a fighter gets robbed twice :twisted: )

[bodhi]

The German fanboy makes his appearance, how did I know you'd bite on this 1 :lol:

These fights werent close and were a disgrace. Erdeis own crowd boo'ed the decisions, the people who came to support him. Should have been 9-3 or 8-4 to Garay

:scaredas: like I said in another thread, I won't waste my time argueing with you. You are not worth it. :good

[teeto]

Hoya Trinidad isn't disregarded as a consensus by any means, myself i had Oscar winning, but some had it a draw and i know people have commented saying Trinidad won. Whitaker-Chavez is the clear cut winner here, and also i've never seen anyone say the John-Marquez decision was good, it's a bad one imo anyway.

[RockysSplitNose]

Jack Johnson vs Marvin Hart - nuff said

[EleventhHour]

Recently, Guzman vs Funeka was pretty damn awful...I don't know anyone that watched the fight live think that Guzman deserved a draw.

At least Funeka is getting a rematch anyway.

:deal

[teeto]

What about Louis-Walcott 1? I've never scored it personally.

[Pachilles]

Lewis v Holyfield was pathetic. You could see in Holy's eyes he knew he'd lost, and the smirk on Don King's face after the fight.

[Pachilles]

And pretty much any fight held in Italy. Used to catch these fights on Eurosport and they were always blatant fixes. I forget the fight, i think it was a cruiserweight or light heavy fight. And the British guy stopped the italian around the 8 - 10th round, but they turned the decision, claimed it should've been stopped due to an injury or some shit and declared it a points win from up until the stoppage, and gave it to the italian.

Im sorry but fuck you Italians. Slimey greasy queers. Everything you touch is corrupt.

[teeto]

And pretty much any fight held in Italy. Used to catch these fights on Eurosport and they were always blatant fixes. I forget the fight, i think it was a cruiserweight or light heavy fight. And the British guy stopped the italian around the 8 - 10th round, but they turned the decision, claimed it should've been stopped due to an injury or some shit and declared it a points win from up until the stoppage, and gave it to the italian.

Im sorry but fuck you Italians. Slimey greasy queers. Everything you touch is corrupt.
That last sentence is poor.

[OLD FOGEY]

Briggs-Foreman
Maxim-Patterson
half of Quartey's losses.


I disagree with Maxim-Patterson. I have seen that fight several times and I think the decision was fair.

[IntentionalButt]

I disagree with Maxim-Patterson. I have seen that fight several times and I think the decision was fair.

Contemporary opinion seemed to have been typically weighted in Floyd's favor, though, wasn't it? The thread does specify official verdicts that are "generally disregarded"...whether the majority view is accurate is not as important a factor in this context...

[teeto]

Oh okay, well 'generally', the first 2 Barrera-Morales fights should be reversed, and i agree.

[Pachilles]

Oh okay, well 'generally', the first 2 Barrera-Morales fights should be reversed, and i agree.

I feel they both recieved something far greater than a W in their fights

[Pachilles]

That last sentence is poor.

Well the italian mafia controlled boxing for several years. Today if you go to Italy to fight you cannot win, the italians stay at home. There was that cyclist on steroids at the last olympics. Theres the football scandal where several major world class teams had been caught out fixing matches.

So i stand by my statement. And i doubt-a theyre insulted, because they make-a lots-a money!

[OLD FOGEY]

Contemporary opinion seemed to have been typically weighted in Floyd's favor, though, wasn't it? The thread does specify official verdicts that are "generally disregarded"...whether the majority view is accurate is not as important a factor in this context...

Apparently, the print reporters voted for Patterson. The judges unanimously for Maxim. Tommy Loughran did color on the fight and neither he nor the announcer questioned the decision.

John Garfield of this board saw the fight live and he once posted that he thought Maxim won.

I just gave my opinion on watching the tape. It also seems to me that the career momentum was certainly with Patterson, who was the hottest young prospect in the game. Who wanted to see old Joey win? That just let the air out of the Patterson balloon, sort of like a young Tyson blowing a decision in 1985. Maxim was no longer and would never again be a big draw, unlike Patterson.

I remember reading a 1961 biog of Floyd, and the author did not claim this was a poor decision. As a matter of fact, having lived through the whole era, I don't remember all that much controversy about this fight.


The OP's criteria were "decisions that were so bad that the official verdict has to be overruled"

I don't think the Maxim-Patterson fight meets that criteria.

[IntentionalButt]

Apparently, the print reporters voted for Patterson. The judges unanimously for Maxim. Tommy Loughran did color on the fight and neither he nor the announcer questioned the decision.

John Garfield of this board saw the fight live and he once posted that he thought Maxim won.

I just gave my opinion on watching the tape. It also seems to me that the career momentum was certainly with Patterson, who was the hottest young prospect in the game. Who wanted to see old Joey win? That just let the air out of the Patterson balloon, sort of like a young Tyson blowing a decision in 1985. Maxim was no longer and would never again be a big draw, unlike Patterson.

I remember reading a 1961 biog of Floyd, and the author did not claim this was a poor decision. As a matter of fact, having lived through the whole era, I don't remember all that much controversy about this fight.


Then I defer to your experience. :good

[PowerPuncher]

:scaredas: like I said in another thread, I won't waste my time argueing with you. You are not worth it. :good

You know you're brain is substandard an not upto the task, acceptance is a good thing :yep

[Lobotomy]

Leon-Spinks-Jesse Burnett. Leon got a surprisingly lopsided UD in a match the aging Burnett clearly won, but justice prevailed as Jesse immediately got his shot at ST Gordon's WBC CW Title.

Hearns-SRL II. Ray has always been candid in his assessment that Tommy was the rightful winner of their rematch. Somewhat tempered by the suspicion that Hearns may again have succumbed before the final bell had this one also been scheduled for 15 rounds.

Johnny Boudreaux-Scott LeDoux. Televised and on youtube for all to see. Boudreaux's career essentially ended with this fixed robbery, and he descended into obscurity, while LeDoux went on to star in live network telecasts against Leon Spinks, Ron Lyle, Ken Norton, Mike Weaver, Marty Monroe and Larry Holmes. After retirement, Scott maintained his celebrity status as an AWA referee and ESPN boxing analyst. Few non champions in heavyweight history got as much career mileage out of their boxing notoriety as LeDoux did, and much of that might be traced to the Boudreaux fiasco.

Despite the fact Robinson was stopped, he was so far ahead of Maxim when he succumbed to hyperthermia that he actually added to his P4P stature in the process. Hardly anybody believes that Joey could have prevailed in a climate controlled environment.

[daz52]

Whitikar Chavez

[Jaws]

I've always thought DLH-Mosely II was pretty bad. Worse than DLH-Trinidad, anyway.

[Russell]

And pretty much any fight held in Italy. Used to catch these fights on Eurosport and they were always blatant fixes. I forget the fight, i think it was a cruiserweight or light heavy fight. And the British guy stopped the italian around the 8 - 10th round, but they turned the decision, claimed it should've been stopped due to an injury or some shit and declared it a points win from up until the stoppage, and gave it to the italian.

Im sorry but fuck you Italians. Slimey greasy queers. Everything you touch is corrupt.

Love it. :lol::lol:

[Russell]

Wasn't there a tussle at the end of LeDoux/Boudreaux where Cosells wig was knocked off? :lol:

[teeto]

Well the italian mafia controlled boxing for several years. Today if you go to Italy to fight you cannot win, the italians stay at home. There was that cyclist on steroids at the last olympics. Theres the football scandal where several major world class teams had been caught out fixing matches.

So i stand by my statement. And i doubt-a theyre insulted, because they make-a lots-a money!
There's something very dumb about being pissed off with all Italians because Frankie Carbo of 'La Cosa Nostra', the name given to the Sicilian born/of Sicilian blood New York Mafia families, controlled a boxing corruption racket.

And thanks for filling me in on boxing fixes going on in Europe, wow this really is the best forum, i'm learning.

[Lobotomy]

What about Louis-Walcott 1? I've never scored it personally.The problem with Louis-Walcott I is that it was scored on a rounds basis, not on points. Therefore, Jersey Joe only got credit for a single round for each of the two knockdowns. Some observers felt he conceded the last two rounds by running away, costing him the match.

[PowerPuncher]

Lynes got robbed silly against Branco in a Euro title fight in Italy

[teeto]

The problem with Louis-Walcott I is that it was scored on a rounds basis, not on points. Therefore, Jersey Joe only got credit for a single round for each of the two knockdowns. Some observers felt he conceded the last two rounds by running away, costing him the match.
Oh okay, thanks for that. I remember when i first used to by boxing videos years ago, i'd watch the old fights and score them as we do today, only to realise afterwards that the system was different back then.

[teeto]

Lynes got robbed silly against Branco in a Euro title fight in Italy
Nardiello was probably ahead on the cards against Benn (joking)

[rusty nails]

tszyu vs mas. tszyu breaks the jaw of mas and is almost disqualified for hitting on the break when it was clearly simultaneous and he was pasting mas all over the ring.

[Lobotomy]

Wasn't there a tussle at the end of LeDoux/Boudreaux where Cosell's wig was knocked off? :lol:Yes, and in my demented mind, this entitles Scott to IBHOF induction, as well as a full boxer's pension (to be transferable to his surviving relatives in the event he succumbs to that miserable affliction he's now battling).

[Abdullah]

Hoya Trinidad isn't disregarded as a consensus by any means, myself i had Oscar winning, but some had it a draw and i know people have commented saying Trinidad won. Whitaker-Chavez is the clear cut winner here, and also i've never seen anyone say the John-Marquez decision was good, it's a bad one imo anyway.

I agree. I actually had Tito winning close, but could absolutely see a close De La Hoya win or a draw. People blow that fight way out of proportion because of Oscar's flashier punches. It was a close fight no matter how you slice it.

Whitaker-Chavez is known to be one of the most terrible decisions in history. I myself haven't yet scored it. Marquez-John is another fight that I would like to score. If I remember correctly, I have read different opinions on the winner of that fight.

[bodhi]

There's something very dumb about being pissed off with all Italians because Frankie Carbo of 'La Cosa Nostra', the name given to the Sicilian born/of Sicilian blood New York Mafia families, controlled a boxing corruption racket.

And thanks for filling me in on boxing fixes going on in Europe, wow this really is the best forum, i'm learning.

It isn't as bad as Pachilles makes it sound. Of course there are fixtures on the more obscure cards, like everywhere else, but the big fights aren't worse than anywhere else.

[teeto]

It isn't as bad as Pachilles makes it sound. Of course there are fixtures on the more obscure cards, like everywhere else, but the big fights aren't worse than anywhere else.
I agree. Most places are hard to go and get a win.

[Lobotomy]

Oh okay, thanks for that. I remember when i first used to by boxing videos years ago, i'd watch the old fights and score them as we do today, only to realize afterward that the system was different back then.To me, the ten point must system is clearly the best way to go. I do feel it should be liberalized more for the sake of discretion. A knockdown ought not be cause for an automatic two point margin if the one getting knocked down otherwise wins that round, while a dominant round in which a knockdown does not take place should still provide the winner of that round with full scoring credit. (Sports Illustrated raised a big stink about this after SRL-Hearns I, stating that Ray should have had some two point rounds which he only was given by a 10-9 margin.)

Nonetheless, Walcott fully understood how officials scored fights during his title shots, as the rounds basis was standard throughout his career.

[teeto]

I agree. I actually had Tito winning close, but could absolutely see a close De La Hoya win or a draw. People blow that fight way out of proportion because of Oscar's flashier punches. It was a close fight no matter how you slice it.

Whitaker-Chavez is known to be one of the most terrible decisions in history. I myself haven't yet scored it. Marquez-John is another fight that I would like to score. If I remember correctly, I have read different opinions on the winner of that fight.
Yeah you're right on Oscar-Tito. I've had Oscar every time personally, but different rounds were scored differently each time so it's a hard one. On Whitaker-Chavez, well it's a fight that is contested well throughout by both men, but with a clear winner (imo) to the rounds. I had Whitaker 10 rounds to 2. It's a very good fight though. I had Marquez clear over John, even with i think a point deduction.

[teeto]

To me, the ten point must system is clearly the best way to go. I do feel it should be liberalized more for the sake of discretion. A knockdown ought not be cause for an automatic two point margin if the one getting knocked down otherwise wins that round, while a dominant round in which a knockdown does not take place should still provide the winner of that round with full scoring credit. (Sports Illustrated raised a big stink about this after SRL-Hearns I, stating that Ray should have had some two point rounds which he only was given by a 10-9 margin.)

Nonetheless, Walcott fully understood how officials scored fights during his title shots, as the rounds basis was standard throughout his career.
I agree completely, i've been over it hundreds of times myself on these forums and in general. I just think that if a guy scores a knockdown his opponent should have a point deducted, but like you said, if a fighter wins a round in general but gets say a flash knockdown against him, then my opinion is the round should be scored even, he wins the round of boxing but loses a point for going over. I personally don't score a round 10-8 if a guy is getting a pasting and is even out on his feet but doesn't go down, imo if a fighter is getting battered and shows the heart to stay upright, he deserves his 9 points for that round, rather than 8 as he would if he wilted.

[red cobra]

Tyrone Everett-Alfredo Escalera's verdict has been disregarded almost from the moment it was announced.

[Lobotomy]

Tyrone Everett-Alfredo Escalera's verdict has been disregarded almost from the moment it was announced.Here's my scorecard:
R1) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R2) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R3) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R4) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R5) Everett 9-10 Escalera
R6) Everett 9-10 Escalera
R7) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R8) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R9) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R10) Everett 10-10 Escalera
R11) Everett 10-10 Escalera
R12) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R13) Everett 9-10 Escalera
R14) Everett 9-10 Escalera
R15) Everett 9-10 Escalera

Everett 145-142 Escalera

Who else here has sat down and scored this fight? I'd be interested to see how others broke it down, round by round.

Although I agree it was clearly a robbery, I don't think it was as egregious as say, Whitaker-Chavez, which immediately became the subject of a David Letterman top ten monologue.

[sweet_scientist]

Here's my scorecard:
R1) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R2) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R3) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R4) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R5) Everett 9-10 Escalera
R6) Everett 9-10 Escalera
R7) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R8) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R9) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R10) Everett 10-10 Escalera
R11) Everett 10-10 Escalera
R12) Everett 10-9 Escalera
R13) Everett 9-10 Escalera
R14) Everett 9-10 Escalera
R15) Everett 9-10 Escalera

Everett 145-142 Escalera

Who else here has sat down and scored this fight? I'd be interested to see how others broke it down, round by round.

Although I agree it was clearly a robbery, I don't think it was as egregious as say, Whitaker-Chavez, which immediately became the subject of a David Letterman top ten monologue.

Tyrone Everett vs. Alfredo Escalera: 146-140 Everett
Escalera: 5,10,12 and 15.
Everett: 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,11,13 and 14.
Round 9 even.


And I was TRYING to find rounds for Escalera. I think you could go even wider than that.

[cuchulain]

Lewis v Holyfield was pathetic. You could see in Holy's eyes he knew he'd lost, and the smirk on Don King's face after the fight.

This is clearly the most egregious example.

Holy might have won two rounds.

[Lobotomy]

Tyrone Everett vs. Alfredo Escalera: 146-140 Everett
Escalera: 5,10,12 and 15.
Everett: 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,11,13 and 14.
Round 9 even.


And I was TRYING to find rounds for Escalera. I think you could go even wider than that.Thanks for sharing that. I too was trying to find rounds for the Snake Man, and shudder to think of how much wider the margin could have been if I'd deliberately been favoring Everett.

One thing I often do is grant some deference to the ringside commentators viewing it live, as they often see things obscured on the screen. (Cosell is largely responsible for this, as he emphasized these differences, but other broadcasters have done the same thing as long as fights have been telecast.) Eddie Cotton looked like he deserved the verdict over Jose Torres going by the footage alone, but the commentators provided a different perspective. (Carlos Ortiz in particular pointed out the differences in seeing it live versus watching it on television during this bout.)

For me, Escalera swept the three championship rounds on hard charging aggression. If the scoring was not fixed, then I have to assume that the ringside officials must have been disproportionately swayed by the sight of blood.

What's interesting is that you gave round 12 to Escalera, where I gave it to Everett, and you awarded round ten to Escalera, a round I had even. You also had round nine even, a round I gave to Everett. If we were to combine our two cards in a way favorable to Escalera, it still comes out Everett 144-143 Escalera.