*Kid Gavilan At His Finests Hours*

[smitty_son408]

Watching the Bratton title fight moments ago just confirms the brilliance of Gavilan at his peak. Exceptional movement of both foot and upper body (notice at 3:31), one of the best displays of punching I've seen on film. An absolute virtuosa performance. The skills and technique displayed in his bouts don't even exist in today's era. His bouts with Beau Jack and Janiro I were equally impressive in his display of skill. Frankly, I'm close to ranking Gavilan over Leonard at 147 for the #2 slot behind Robinson. He showed at worst an equal amount skill IMO (though Leonard is arguably the most complete fighter in the sports history) and faced some impressive opposition including the #1 guy himself (twice). His comeback performance against Basillio cannot be ignored also. This wouldn't be quite a shocking move to most here though it's consensus opinion that Gavilan has a claim over just about anyone at the weight, though Leonard is generally considered Top 2.

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Lets not forget about this display in the rubber match...

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[teeto]

Good thread. Round 7 was very eventful! The outboxing displayed in round 6 was great, complete with defensive head movements and shoulder rolls. His hooks were so sharp, even inside where some men get their work smothered.

[smitty_son408]

Good thread. Round 7 was very eventful! The outboxing displayed in round 6 was great, complete with defensive head movements and shoulder rolls. His hooks were so sharp, even inside where some men get their work smothered.

Gavilan's jab was excellent, good set up weapon for his powerful hooks. What I also enjoyed was how he would bait his opponent in taking the less punishing blows to set up the more meaningful shots.

[My2Sense]

But PUGLISTIC POWER says Gavilan is slow and unimpressive, and would likely get KO'd by Hatton in 5 rounds. :think

A: LOL at the slowness of the punches.
B: LOL at the predictability of Gavilan when he was doing those hop jumps.

Lets see him throw a left hook out of nothing, connect and knock his opponent out ala Jones Jr.

[smitty_son408]

But PUGLISTIC POWER says Gavilan is slow and unimpressive, and would likely get KO'd by Hatton in 5 rounds. :think

And the War continues:lol:

[Sweet Pea]

PugilisticPower was a chump.

As for Gavilan, I love the Bratton fights. His offensive variety was amazing in them. He had such an innovative and free-flowing style. There really hasn't been one that's been able to mimic it since. One of the most unique fighters of all time. I'd mention him among the most versatile fighters of all time, particularly with the left hand, regardless of his relative lack of punching power.

[smitty_son408]

PugilisticPower was a chump.

As for Gavilan, I love the Bratton fights. His offensive variety was amazing in them. He had such an innovative and free-flowing style. There really hasn't been one that's been able to mimic it since. One of the most unique fighters of all time. I'd mention him among the most versatile fighters of all time, particularly with the left hand, regardless of his relative lack of punching power.

Agreed. One of the greatest hookers in small division history, he made it seem effortless in the ring. I wonder if anyone has reposted the Robinson fights on youtube, I've been itching to watch those for a while.

[Sweet Pea]

Agreed. One of the greatest hookers in small division history, he made it seem effortless in the ring. I wonder if anyone has reposted the Robinson fights on youtube, I've been itching to watch those for a while.Gavilan's fights with Robinson? I was under the impression they didn't exist. In fact I'm pretty certain of it.

[smitty_son408]

Gavilan's fights with Robinson? I was under the impression they didn't exist. In fact I'm pretty certain of it.

I almost certain I saw a brief clip of one of their encounters (though I was likely drunk:lol:). I never heard that they didn't exist though, thats a real bummer.

[sweet_scientist]

I think I've heard RB say that the Gavilan-Robinson fights exist.

Kid Gavilan has an argument for the number 2 spot at welter. In a head to head sense, maybe Leonard has an edge because of his power advantage, but I wouldn't put anyone else above kid in a head to head sense.

Hearns would probably be his hardest opponent stylistically, but I wouldn't count him out of that fight all the same.

[smitty_son408]

I think I've heard RB say that the Gavilan-Robinson fights exist.

Kid Gavilan has an argument for the number 2 spot at welter. In a head to head sense, maybe Leonard has an edge because of his power advantage, but I wouldn't put anyone else above kid in a head to head sense.

Hearns would probably be his hardest opponent stylistically, but I wouldn't count him out of that fight all the same.

Gavilan is one of the guys I pick to beat Hearns along with both Sugars and Basillio. Hearns doesn't rank within my top 10 at Welter because of his inexperience and durability issues, which puts him at disadvantage against some of the greats at the weight (but this is for another thread:D).

[Sweet Pea]

I take the conventional stance regarding Hearns's abilities at Welterweight. Outside of Robinson and obviously Leonard, I favor noone, though there are a fair few I'd give decent chances. Gavilan definitely goes the distance, and has the right attributes to off-set Hearns's lanky range controlling style. Except for power, which is why I'd have to favor Hearns ever so slightly.

Napoles had the power and punching style needed to hurt Hearns, though he may've simply been too small and too tender-skinned to deal with the Hitman's reach and firepower. Napoles vs Gavilan would've been a fight for the ages.

[WhataRock]

As would Gavilan-LMR.

[Unforgiven]

Watching the Bratton title fight moments ago just confirms the brilliance of Gavilan at his peak. Exceptional movement of both foot and upper body (notice at 3:31), one of the best displays of punching I've seen on film. An absolute virtuosa performance. The skills and technique displayed in his bouts don't even exist in today's era. His bouts with Beau Jack and Janiro I were equally impressive in his display of skill. Frankly, I'm close to ranking Gavilan over Leonard at 147 for the #2 slot behind Robinson. He showed at worst an equal amount skill IMO (though Leonard is arguably the most complete fighter in the sports history) and faced some impressive opposition including the #1 guy himself (twice). His comeback performance against Basillio cannot be ignored also. This wouldn't be quite a shocking move to most here though it's consensus opinion that Gavilan has a claim over just about anyone at the weight, though Leonard is generally considered Top 2.


I think Ray Leonard is grossly over-rated in the all-time welterweight lists. Gavilan is one of several I'd put above him. Leonard shouldn't make the top 5, maybe he gets in the top 10.
I dont understand people having him number 2.

[Rise Above]

Love watching Gavilan fight.

[teeto]

I'd have to seriously consider Griffith's chances against Hearns at welterweight, he has the combinations that are right out of the top drawer and Hearns isn't going to do Rodriguez (outboxing mode) job all night imo, Hearns is hittable against a man who has every chance of emulating Ray Leonard's late onslaught. Hearns has a huge chance also, for blatant reasons.

[smitty_son408]

I think Ray Leonard is grossly over-rated in the all-time welterweight lists. Gavilan is one of several I'd put above him. Leonard shouldn't make the top 5, maybe he gets in the top 10.
I dont understand people having him number 2.

Granted he had a very short career and doesn't have quite the depth as most of the top guys at the weight, his high end wins are pretty damn good, people criticize the rematch against Duran but a win is a win thought the 1st fight always tells the story Leonard still proved himself to be one hell of fighter even in defeat in Montreal. Not to mention, they may have not been a better all around fighter to ever grace the division other than the TRUE Sugar himself.

[Unforgiven]

Granted he had a very short career and doesn't have quite the depth as most of the top guys at the weight, his high end wins are pretty damn good, people criticize the rematch against Duran but a win is a win thought the 1st fight always tells the story Leonard still proved himself to be one hell of fighter even in defeat in Montreal. Not to mention, they may have not been a better all around fighter to ever grace the division other than the TRUE Sugar himself.

The thing is, I'm not sure Benitez, Duran or Hearns are truly great welterweights at all. I mean, Hearns was an awesome boxer-puncher but his resume and experience was lacking. Benitez I dont feel is an historically great welterweight, he was more known for being a "wonderkid" and reigning at 140.
Duran maybe had the best credentials, and it took Leonard two attempts to beat him.
I think those three wins get blown up too much when people are saying they do enough for Leonard to put him in the top 2 welterweights ever.

Edit - i'm not saying he had to beat a LOAD of GREAT fighters, I can rank a champ as great for beating good and very good fighters in depth, or for beating a few who were really great at that weight. I think Leonard's welter resume comes sort of half-way in both areas.

[smitty_son408]

The thing is, I'm not sure Benitez, Duran or Hearns are truly great welterweights at all. I mean, Hearns was an awesome boxer-puncher but his resume and experience was lacking. Benitez I dont feel is an historically great welterweight, he was more known for being a "wonderkid" and reigning at 140.
Duran maybe had the best credentials, and it took Leonard two attempts to beat him.
I think those three wins get blown up too much when people are saying they do enough for Leonard to put him in the top 2 welterweights ever.

Edit - i'm not saying he had to beat a LOAD of GREAT fighters, I can rank a champ as great for beating good and very good fighters in depth, or for beating a few who were really great at that weight. I think Leonard's welter resume comes sort of half-way in both areas.

I understand what your saying and I agree that Benitez and Hearns aren't actually in the top tier at the 147 lb limit (Hearns doesn't make my Top 10, while he is Top 5 in most people's list). Doesn't change the facts that they were great wins against great fighters in their prime and he displayed some of the most exceptional skills at the weight that warrants his placing. I personally have moved Gavilan ahead of Leonard and theirs a case for Napoles and Griffith being ahead of him at the weight. A matter of personal preference really.

[PowerPuncher]

I'd have to seriously consider Griffith's chances against Hearns at welterweight, he has the combinations that are right out of the top drawer and Hearns isn't going to do Rodriguez (outboxing mode) job all night imo, Hearns is hittable against a man who has every chance of emulating Ray Leonard's late onslaught. Hearns has a huge chance also, for blatant reasons.

Hearns has a chance to take Griffith out early like Carter did imo Personally I dont rate Griffith up with the other elites and I'd give Galivan a better shot, don't think he'd beat Hearns though

[teeto]

Hearns has a chance to take Griffith out early like Carter did imo Personally I dont rate Griffith up with the other elites and I'd give Galivan a better shot, don't think he'd beat Hearns though
Like i said, Hearns' chances are clear, and i didn't favour Griffith, but seen as though i do rate him head to head, especially at 147, where i suspect this bout is, then i would seriously consider him for the reasons i stated.