Let's go Modern - who was the best fighter in each of the 9 modern divisions?

[Popkins]

We seem to forever debate who the greatest were in the traditional eight divisions, but most of the unwanted nine modern divisions have been in operation for a long time now, so it would be good to debate who have been the best in those divisions.

What I have done to start us off is to say who I think was THE best fighter who ever fought in each division H2H, ie this is not a debate on career/pound-for-pound greatness, it is simply about who showed himself to be the finest fighting machine ever at that weight by producing the goods in key fights.

If I think there is a clear number 1, I have not acknowledged any other realistic contenders. This is just my opinion of course, feel free to disagree. I'm sure there will some disgruntled fans of Zapata, Yuh, Norris, Calzaghe, Pacquiao, Morales, Barrera, Moon, Galaxy, etc etc - but these are my calls and all they are is a starting point. Disagree at will. That's kind of the point.

:bbb



Cruiserweight

Evander Holyfield (1987)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Supermiddleweight

Roy Jones Jr (1994)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Light-Middleweight

Thomas Hearns (1983)

Other Realistic Contenders: Mike McCallum (1986)


Light-Welterweight

Aaron Pryor (1982)

Other Realistic Contenders: Julio Cesar Chavez (1989), Wilfred Benitez (1976)


Super-Featherweight

Alexis Arguello (1979)

Other Realistic Contenders: Floyd Mayweather Jr (2001), Julio Cesar Chavez (1985)


Super-Bantamweight

Wilfredo Gomez (seventy-eight)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Junior-Bantamweight

Gilberto Roman (1986)

Other Realistic Contenders: Jiro Watanabe (1984)


Light-Flyweight

Jung Koo Chang (1983)

Other Realistic Contenders: Yoko Gushiken (seventy-eight)


Minimumweight

Ricardo Lopez (1993)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.

[bodhi]

Supermiddleweight

Roy Jones Jr (1994)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.

Sorry but Calzaghe is a realistic contender. And would you have said greatest than he would have to be number one.


Light-Middleweight

Thomas Hearns (1983)

Other Realistic Contenders: Mike McCallum (1986)

I think Winky Wright deserves a mention.


Light-Welterweight

Aaron Pryor (1982)

Other Realistic Contenders: Julio Cesar Chavez (1989), Wilfred Benitez (1976)

Barney Ross? Tony Canzoneri? Jackie "Kid" Berg? Antonio Cervantes?

[Popkins]

Sorry but Calzaghe is a realistic contender. And would you have said greatest than he would have to be number one.



I think Winky Wright deserves a mention.



Barney Ross? Tony Canzoneri? Jackie "Kid" Berg? Antonio Cervantes?

Calzaghe wouldn't have a chance in the ring vs peak Superman.

Winky would not beat Hearns or McCallum, not a chance, therefore he is not a "realistic" contender.

Ross and Canzoneri didn't fight in the light-welter division as it is now, it wasn't created in its current form till the 1960s if I'm not mistaken.

Cervantes is a good shout though. Would he be your number 1?

[McGrain]

Very good post. Eddie Perkins deserves a mention at 140.

[bodhi]

Calzaghe wouldn't have a chance in the ring vs peak Superman.

I disagree. I think Calzaghe at his best would pose some problems for Jones. If he digs deep he may even outwork him and yeah I know I'm pretty alone with this opinion.


Winky would not beat Hearns or McCallum, not a chance, therefore he is not a "realistic" contender.

I don't think he would beat McCallum but he may outwork Hearns.


Ross and Canzoneri didn't fight in the light-welter division as it is now, it wasn't created in its current form till the 1960s if I'm not mistaken.

Ross and Conzoneri both won the lww world championship. Can't be ignored I think.


Cervantes is a good shout though. Would he be your number 1?

He has a good chance against Chavez but would lose to Pryor and we know what happened when Benitez fought him. Out of the fighters you mentioned I would pick Benitez.


And I would include Azumah Nelson at sfw. He deserves it.

[cuchulain]

Cruiserweight

Evander Holyfield (1987)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Rocky fought at HW, but all save two of his fights were within the original cruiser weight limit, and ALL of them were within the current CW limit.

I would pick him over Holy.



Supermiddleweight

Roy Jones Jr (1994)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.

Calzaghe would be a realistic contender here, though a clear underdog.





Light-Middleweight

Thomas Hearns (1983)

Other Realistic Contenders: Mike McCallum (1986)

It would be close between Hearns and Leonard (1981)



Light-Welterweight

Aaron Pryor (1982)

Other Realistic Contenders: Julio Cesar Chavez (1989), Wilfred Benitez (1976)

Floyd Mayweather jnr. 2005

[anarci]

We seem to forever debate who the greatest were in the traditional eight divisions, but most of the unwanted nine modern divisions have been in operation for a long time now, so it would be good to debate who have been the best in those divisions.

What I have done to start us off is to say who I think was THE best fighter who ever fought in each division H2H, ie this is not a debate on career/pound-for-pound greatness, it is simply about who showed himself to be the finest fighting machine ever at that weight by producing the goods in key fights.

If I think there is a clear number 1, I have not acknowledged any other realistic contenders. This is just my opinion of course, feel free to disagree. I'm sure there will some disgruntled fans of Zapata, Yuh, Norris, Calzaghe, Pacquiao, Morales, Barrera, Moon, Galaxy, etc etc - but these are my calls and all they are is a starting point. Disagree at will. That's kind of the point.

:bbb



Cruiserweight

Evander Holyfield (1987)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Supermiddleweight

Roy Jones Jr (1994)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Light-Middleweight

Thomas Hearns (1983)

Other Realistic Contenders: Mike McCallum (1986)


Light-Welterweight

Aaron Pryor (1982)

Other Realistic Contenders: Julio Cesar Chavez (1989), Wilfred Benitez (1976)


Super-Featherweight

Alexis Arguello (1979)

Other Realistic Contenders: Floyd Mayweather Jr (2001), Julio Cesar Chavez (1985)


Super-Bantamweight

Wilfredo Gomez (seventy-eight)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Junior-Bantamweight

Gilberto Roman (1986)

Other Realistic Contenders: Jiro Watanabe (1984)


Light-Flyweight

Jung Koo Chang (1983)

Other Realistic Contenders: Yoko Gushiken (seventy-eight)


Minimumweight

Ricardo Lopez (1993)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.

Chavez resume at JW is clearly better than Pryors and i also like him in HTH matchup.
I also think Tapia is the number 1 Jb, and a case can also be made for Kaosai Galaxy.

[Popkins]

I disagree. I think Calzaghe at his best would pose some problems for Jones. If he digs deep he may even outwork him and yeah I know I'm pretty alone with this opinion.

Fair enough amigo. I couldn't disagree more though. Jones would be Calzaghe's nightmare IMO. Everything Calzaghe has, Jones has more. Calzaghe relied heavily on handspeed and workrate - Jones was faster than him of hand and foot, and was as fit and well-conditioned as anyone I've ever seen. Calzaghe compensated for a lack of defence with a sturdy chin - Jones hit far harder than anyone Calzaghe ever faced. Look at the guys who dropped Joe... Jones would have no trouble at all doing likewise or more likely worse. Jones's lightning-fast right hand would land all night, it's a no-win for Joe C as far as I can see. He was very good while Jones at his 168 zenith was positively supernatural.

I don't think he would beat McCallum but he may outwork Hearns.

He may outwork Hearns?? I don't understand what you mean here. Not at all.

Ross and Conzoneri both won the lww world championship. Can't be ignored I think.

I wouldnt have bothered making the thread if we could just bring up the old timers again, my point was to get us talking about the modern divisions. Someone could clarify this, but I think the jr-welter division was abolished at some point and resurrected in the 60s? I should have been more specific in my thread-starter then, I was looking for the best men in the current divisions since those divisions started in their current form (phew!).

He has a good chance against Chavez but would lose to Pryor and we know what happened when Benitez fought him. Out of the fighters you mentioned I would pick Benitez.

:huh Dunno why you mentioned him then, if you don't view him as a possible number 1. If you, like me, are sure that Pryor and Benitez are better than him, then he ceases to be a realistic other contender for us both, don't he??

And I would include Azumah Nelson at sfw. He deserves it.

Yes, that's a good call. I'm a big fan of the Professor, I just don't see the sfw version of him beating Arguello, but that's certainly debatable. I should've included him. :good

[Popkins]

Chavez resume at JW is clearly better than Pryors and i also like him in HTH matchup.
I also think Tapia is the number 1 Jb, and a case can also be made for Kaosai Galaxy.

Chavez's resume may be better, but I emphasized that was not the point here. If you think Chavez would beat Pryor h2h then that's a fair enough call though. Personally I was more impressed by Pryor in the 1st Arguello fight than I was with JCC in any of his 140 fights. No way does Tapia topple my man at J-b. A case can't be made for Galaxy as far as I can see, he was over-reliant on power and feasted on bums, his skill level was not on par with those guys.

[Popkins]

Rocky fought at HW, but all save two of his fights were within the original cruiser weight limit, and ALL of them were within the current CW limit.

I would pick him over Holy.



Calzaghe would be a realistic contender here, though a clear underdog.






It would be close between Hearns and Leonard (1981)




Floyd Mayweather jnr. 2005

Marciano never fought in the cruiserweight division, therefore he can't be considered for best fighter ever to fight in the cruiserweight division.

Leonard and Mayweather were great fighters who fought in those divisions, but Hearns beating Duran & Benitez looked better and proved more than Leonard did vs Kalule IMO, and Mayweather fought dross at lww, he proved nothing there. Then again, he did look brilliant vs Gatti so I can kind of see where you're coming from on that one. But if you include him on that basis, you'd have to include Pacquiao as well, who looked every bit as scintillating against a considerably better opponent in Hatton.

[teeto]

Cruiserweight- Holyfield

Super-Middleweight- Calzaghe

Light-Middle- Hearns

Light-Welter- Locche

Super-Feather- Mayweather

Super-Bantam- Gomez

Super-Fly- Tapia

Light-Fly- Chang

Straw- Lopez

That was very hard for me to type the letters L-o-c-c-h-e, i've always had Pryor there in this regard, oh well we need our controversies here. Also go ahead and dissect my Calzaghe pick if you wish, he's my pick today.

[cuchulain]

Chavez's resume may be better, but I emphasized that was not the point here. If you think Chavez would beat Pryor h2h then that's a fair enough call though. Personally I was more impressed by Pryor in the 1st Arguello fight than I was with JCC in any of his 140 fights. No way does Tapia topple my man at J-b. A case can't be made for Galaxy as far as I can see, he was over-reliant on power and feasted on bums, his skill level was not on par with those guys.

Does Chavez get to drink from Pryor's personal bottle ?:yep

[teeto]

Tapia is my long standing choice at 115

[Popkins]

Cruiserweight- Holyfield

Super-Middleweight- Calzaghe

Light-Middle- Hearns

Light-Welter- Locche

Super-Feather- Mayweather

Super-Bantam- Gomez

Super-Fly- Tapia

Light-Fly- Chang

Straw- Lopez

That was very hard for me to type the letters L-o-c-c-h-e, i've always had Pryor there in this regard, oh well we need our controversies here. Also go ahead and dissect my Calzaghe pick if you wish, he's my pick today.

I cannot understand how anyone who saw Jones fight at 168 can think Calzaghe could even run him close. To me they are just two completely different standards. It's like saying Trinidad would beat Ray Leonard at 147 or that JM Marquez would beat Willie Pep at feather - ie a very good but flawed fighter of this age against a very special ATG in terms of ability. But hey, each to their own.

[Popkins]

Does Chavez get to drink from Pryor's personal bottle ?:yep

:lol: Yes, JCC can have some Gatorade in the championship rounds.

[teeto]

I've commented on it a few times Popkins, in the general also. I'll find my post now, but first i just want to say that while i may very well ultimately favour Jones, Calzaghe has more body of work there. What's the criteria here?

[manbearpig]

How many fights did Jones have at 168 again?
Calzaghe is the clear best at the weight.

[cuchulain]

Marciano never fought in the cruiserweight division, therefore he can't be considered for best fighter ever to fight in the cruiserweight division.


Obviously.

I believe I made my caveats in the original post.


Leonard and Mayweather were great fighters who fought in those divisions,

but Hearns beating Duran & Benitez looked better and proved more than Leonard did vs Kalule IMO,

I thought you mentioned earlier that you were only considering H to H.

If so, record of achievement would be less important than hypothetical face-to-face matchup.

IMO, Leonard at 154 in 1981 would definitely be a realistic contender at 154.


and Mayweather fought dross at lww, he proved nothing there. Then again, he did look brilliant vs Gatti so I can kind of see where you're coming from on that one. But if you include him on that basis, you'd have to include Pacquiao as well, who looked every bit as scintillating against a considerably better opponent in Hatton.

In Mayweather's case, again, I am using your criteria.

How do I feel they would stack up h to h ?

If you change the criteria, then Calzaghe moves ahead of Jones based on what he actually DID at 168, despite us agreeing that Roy would be the clear favourite, H2H.



(Almost forgot. I would perhaps consider Hatton very slightly better than Gatti, perhaps not. He certainly wasn't CONSIDERABLY better, especially the version that faced Pac.)

[Popkins]

Obviously.

I believe I made my caveats in the original post.



I thought you mentioned earlier that you were only considering H to H.

If so, record of achievement would be less important than hypothetical face-to-face matchup.

IMO, Leonard at 154 in 1981 would definitely be a realistic contender at 154.



In Mayweather's case, again, I am using your criteria.

How do I feel they would stack up h to h ?

If you change the criteria, then Calzaghe moves ahead of Jones based on what he actually DID at 168, despite us agreeing that Roy would be the clear favourite, H2H.

How many fights did Jones have at 168 again?
Calzaghe is the clear best at the weight.

I've commented on it a few times Popkins, in the general also. I'll find my post now, but first i just want to say that while i may very well ultimately favour Jones, Calzaghe has more body of work there. What's the criteria here?

Hope I can elucidate here:

What I have done to start us off is to say who I think was THE best fighter who ever fought in each division H2H, ie this is not a debate on career/pound-for-pound greatness, it is simply about who showed himself to be the finest fighting machine ever at that weight by producing the goods in key fights.

The criteria is who looked like the best fighter in his time in each division, who in their time there performed best against the best comp. Things like longevity and achievements are not relevant, merely how good they looked and who it was against.

[bodhi]

Fair enough amigo. I couldn't disagree more though. Jones would be Calzaghe's nightmare IMO. Everything Calzaghe has, Jones has more. Calzaghe relied heavily on handspeed and workrate - Jones was faster than him of hand and foot, and was as fit and well-conditioned as anyone I've ever seen. Calzaghe compensated for a lack of defence with a sturdy chin - Jones hit far harder than anyone Calzaghe ever faced. Look at the guys who dropped Joe... Jones would have no trouble at all doing likewise or more likely worse. Jones's lightning-fast right hand would land all night, it's a no-win for Joe C as far as I can see. He was very good while Jones at his 168 zenith was positively supernatural.

I'm not high on Jones as you are. Jones was a great fighter and looked definitly unbeatable but I don't think he was. I don't think Jones was faster than Joe C. and if not by much. Yep, Jones hit harder than anyone Calzaghe fought during his reign. But Jones never fought one like Calzaghe although. I think Calzaghe's own speed, workrate and awkwardness would pose a big problem to Jones.


He may outwork Hearns?? I don't understand what you mean here. Not at all.

What I mean is that Winky's very good defense and him throwing around or over 1,000 punches might win him a decision over Hearns.


I wouldnt have bothered making the thread if we could just bring up the old timers again, my point was to get us talking about the modern divisions. Someone could clarify this, but I think the jr-welter division was abolished at some point and resurrected in the 60s? I should have been more specific in my thread-starter then, I was looking for the best men in the current divisions since those divisions started in their current form (phew!).

The division was abolished and restarted. That's right. I disagree however that we can just ignore half of the divisions history.


:huh Dunno why you mentioned him then, if you don't view him as a possible number 1. If you, like me, are sure that Pryor and Benitez are better than him, then he ceases to be a realistic other contender for us both, don't he??

I think there is the misunderstanding. Not every contender was able to become champ. Likewise here. Not everyone that deserves a mention can be champ. You mentioned Chavez, I'd pick Cervantes over him.


Yes, that's a good call. I'm a big fan of the Professor, I just don't see the sfw version of him beating Arguello, but that's certainly debatable. I should've included him. :good

Would be a great fight. Likewise I don't see Chavez or Mayweather beating Arguello and still they deserve beeing mentioned as contenders. As does Nelson.

[teeto]

Here's what i said last time it came up Popkins

'My opinion is that it's more difficult than people think. On the contrary to the opinion of the masses i think that Jones' best shot is to win by ko. Calzaghe dictates the pace of fights so well, hundred miles an hour and has that multi directional mobility from his feet. He's a fast working ring general. Only one man ever dictated the pace against Calzaghe, and slowed it down, that was a master boxer named Bernard Hopkins. As great a fighter and as much a force of nature Jones is, he doesn't fight like Hopkins one bit. Jones is so fast and has one shot power, i don't think he could outbox an enigma that is Calzaghe, but i reckon he could blast him out of the blue and follow it up.

It's really difficult for me to say. '

But if you're simply of the opinion that styles don't play a part and that Jones is just better then i do actually see where that opinion comes from, but i don't fully agree.

[bodhi]

How many fights did Jones have at 168 again?
Calzaghe is the clear best at the weight.

The greatest, not necessarily the best. Jones may very well be the best.

[cuchulain]

Hope I can elucidate here:



The criteria is who looked like the best fighter in his time in each division, who in their time there performed best against the best comp. Things like longevity and achievements are not relevant, merely how good they looked and who it was against.


Fair enough.

i took you to mean who would have prevailed over all others in the division on a h2h basis.

[Popkins]

Here's what i said last time it came up Popkins

'My opinion is that it's more difficult than people think. On the contrary to the opinion of the masses i think that Jones' best shot is to win by ko. Calzaghe dictates the pace of fights so well, hundred miles an hour and has that multi directional mobility from his feet. He's a fast working ring general. Only one man ever dictated the pace against Calzaghe, and slowed it down, that was a master boxer named Bernard Hopkins. As great a fighter and as much a force of nature Jones is, he doesn't fight like Hopkins one bit. Jones is so fast and has one shot power, i don't think he could outbox an enigma that is Calzaghe, but i reckon he could blast him out of the blue and follow it up.

It's really difficult for me to say. '

But if you're simply of the opinion that styles don't play a part and that Jones is just better then i do actually see where that opinion comes from, but i don't fully agree.

I do think styles play a part, but I have a very different idea from you of how the styles of Jones and Calzaghe would mesh. I think Jones would completely outclass Joe. I know it's hard to envisage that because Joe never fought anyone in the condition to dominate him like that, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Of course it could, and with Jones it would. A highly motivated Roy Jones would pick Joe Calzaghe apart. Jones at 168 was too fast and too powerful, and Joe's defence just isn't equipped for a fighter like RJJ. JMHO mate

[Popkins]

Fair enough.

i took you to mean who would have prevailed over all others in the division on a h2h basis.

My bad. My criteria was not as clear as it should have been.

[cuchulain]

My bad. My criteria was not as clear as it should have been.

All's fine.

That you're still up at this hour of the night, must indicate that you're going to watch the fight live ?

[teeto]

I do think styles play a part, but I have a very different idea from you of how the styles of Jones and Calzaghe would mesh. I think Jones would completely outclass Joe. I know it's hard to envisage that because Joe never fought anyone in the condition to dominate him like that, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Of course it could, and with Jones it would. A highly motivated Roy Jones would pick Joe Calzaghe apart. Jones at 168 was too fast and too powerful, and Joe's defence just isn't equipped for a fighter like RJJ. JMHO mate
Well Jones was so much of a physical monster in his prime that him playing the part of superman against Calzaghe is not a stretch of the imagination. I don't know if it would happen myself though. I rate Calzaghe head to head personally, he's hardly perfect but he is adaptable and while his punching form is far from textbook, stylistically he is somewhat of a technician. Jones was never technical, that's why once the legs have deteriorated he has incurred losses that could never happen in his younger days. In hindsight whn you analyze his performances it's all physical, he won due to speed, power etc. Now when i look at Calzaghe who had quality circular movement type footwork, i can see that to beat him is to slow his pace of operation. I never thought someone could do that until Hopkins did it. Now Jones is never the boxer to do that, which is why when i really sit and ponder the match up i can't see Jones outboxing him. Calzaghe is a fast operator in terms of actually boxing. Jones is just fast. I think Jones could knock him out with a right hand though and he very well might, Calzaghe was hurt by the better caliber of hitter in his career.

[teeto]

All's fine.

That you're still up at this hour of the night, must indicate that you're going to watch the fight live ?
Of course man, England is alive tonight.

[GPater11093]

Cruiserweight: Evander Holyfield
Super Middleweight: Roy Jones Jr
Light Middleweight: Emile Griffith
Light Welterweight: Wilfred Benitez
Super Featherweight: Alexis Arguello
Super Bantamweight: Wilfredo Gomez
Super Flyweight: Jiro Watanabe
Light Flyweight: Jung Koo Chang
Minimumweight: Ricardo Lopez

[teeto]

Under this criteria Watanabe is a clear front runner amongst some others at 115, easily.

[Popkins]

All's fine.

That you're still up at this hour of the night, must indicate that you're going to watch the fight live ?

Of course! I can't wait!!

By the way, I'd take issue with saying Hatton was only slightly better than Gatti was at 140. I'd say Hatton was indeed considerably better. Gatti of 2005 would not have stopped Paulie Malignaggi, winning 10 out of 11 rounds, no chance. Hatton of 2005 was light years ahead of Gatti as a light-welter, Hatton of 2009 was still considerably better IMO.

[GPater11093]

Under this criteria Watanabe is a clear front runner amongst some others at 115, easily.

Definitly, Watanabe is amazing. Prime for prime him versus Gilberto Roman would be near heaven.

Also cant wait for the big fight

[teeto]

Definitly, Watanabe is amazing. Prime for prime him versus Gilberto Roman would be near heaven.

Also cant wait for the big fight
I've got that fight and need to find it badly. Got it from RB. Can't wait for the fight myself, starting at 2 am i right?

[Popkins]

Well Jones was so much of a physical monster in his prime that him playing the part of superman against Calzaghe is not a stretch of the imagination. I don't know if it would happen myself though. I rate Calzaghe head to head personally, he's hardly perfect but he is adaptable and while his punching form is far from textbook, stylistically he is somewhat of a technician. Jones was never technical, that's why once the legs have deteriorated he has incurred losses that could never happen in his younger days. In hindsight whn you analyze his performances it's all physical, he won due to speed, power etc. Now when i look at Calzaghe who had quality circular movement type footwork, i can see that to beat him is to slow his pace of operation. I never thought someone could do that until Hopkins did it. Now Jones is never the boxer to do that, which is why when i really sit and ponder the match up i can't see Jones outboxing him. Calzaghe is a fast operator in terms of actually boxing. Jones is just fast. I think Jones could knock him out with a right hand though and he very well might, Calzaghe was hurt by the better caliber of hitter in his career.

Good post. I disagree somewhat, as I view Calzaghe as more flawed than you seem to, and I view Jones as more skilled than you seem to, I think Jones could easily outpoint Joe Calzaghe (though I'd back him to stop him for sure), but a good post with some good points nonetheless. I appreciate your input on the thread amigo.

[Popkins]

I've got that fight and need to find it badly. Got it from RB. Can't wait for the fight myself, starting at 2 am i right?

TV coverage starts at 2, the fight won't start til about 4 I don't think. I say Pacquiao TKO11 Clottey, ref saves Joshua on accumulation of punishment. Even though it will have been a barnburner, Pac will have a healthy points lead at the time of the stoppage. Sorry for going off-topic!

[GPater11093]

I've got that fight and need to find it badly. Got it from RB. Can't wait for the fight myself, starting at 2 am i right?

Actually you was going to watch it and tell me about it not hat long ago.

Starts at 2am yep, Im gain aboot half 1 to watch the Brook and Bellew fights from last night i recorded

[teeto]

Good post. I disagree somewhat, as I view Calzaghe as more flawed than you seem to, and I view Jones as more skilled than you seem to, I think Jones could easily outpoint Joe Calzaghe (though I'd back him to stop him for sure), but a good post with some good points nonetheless. I appreciate your input on the thread amigo.
Yeah thanks Popkins. Like i said, i'm not going all out giving you shit (haha, just kidding) because i clearly see why you could deem Jones as amazing head to head in his prime. I don't think Calzaghe is not flawed though, i just think he's a very effective operator in his own way.

[teeto]

Popkins- yeah the fight will be great, always is when Pacquiao fights.

Greg- i'm a nob lately, i told you i'd watch that and AlFrancis i'd score Sanchez-Cowdell and have done neither. I actually just need to find Roman-Watanabe but i have no excuse for Al.

[GPater11093]

Popkins- yeah the fight will be great, always is when Pacquiao fights.

Greg- i'm a nob lately, i told you i'd watch that and AlFrancis i'd score Sanchez-Cowdell and have done neither. I actually just need to find Roman-Watanabe but i have no excuse for Al.

What do you mean lately?

Your a scouser what do I expect. At least Al had the sense to bugger off to Spain, although he must have done a bank job or something as we all know rich criminals go to spain.

[teeto]

What do you mean lately?

Your a scouser what do I expect. At least Al had the sense to bugger off to Spain, although he must have done a bank job or something as we all know rich criminals go to spain.
See that's how soft you are lad, Al did a a bank job, i've just hacked into your computer and bought a house next to Al with your money.

I'm the new breed, the cyber scouser.

[GPater11093]

See that's how soft you are lad, Al did a a bank job, i've just hacked into your computer and bought a house next to Al with your money.

I'm the new breed, the cyber scouser.

:lol::lol:

If my bank account got robbed, I would gain money.

[teeto]

:lol::lol:

If my bank account got robbed, I would gain money.
Shit tell the guy next door to you then that i meant to rob you and not him, he's not getting a refund though.

[GPater11093]

Shit tell the guy next door to you then that i meant to rob you and not him, he's not getting a refund though.

You speak a heap of shit. How the fuck did you get from modern fighters to pretendign to rob my neighbour. Fucking pathetic. This is a boxing forum, keep your shit for some place else

[teeto]

You speak a heap of shit. How the fuck did you get from modern fighters to pretendign to rob my neighbour. Fucking pathetic. This is a boxing forum, keep your shit for some place else

:rofl:rofl

Little bastard

[GPater11093]

:rofl:rofl

Little bastard

Anyway i thought I would get pulled up on my Emile Griffith pick.

[Vysotsky]

No mention of Tszyu at 140?

[teeto]

Anyway i thought I would get pulled up on my Emile Griffith pick.
Did you pick him on the basis that you reckon it was his best fighting weight? If so he must be one of the best there. Hearns for me though, he was more mature and composed as a rounded fighter there than at 147.

[teeto]

No mention of Tszyu at 140?
I'm a big Tszyu admirer but no, not for me.

[GPater11093]

Did you pick him on the basis that you reckon it was his best fighting weight? If so he must be one of the best there. Hearns for me though, he was more mature and composed as a rounded fighter there than at 147.

I think at LMW not many fighters would beat him.

[teeto]

I think at LMW not many fighters would beat him.
Do you reckon at 154 he would be able to get to Benitez? I reckon it's very possible. What about Hearns though? At 147 i reckon Griffith has a great chance of emulating Leonard's successful onslaught, but Hearns can win on a great performance also.

Norris-Griffith?

McCallum-Griffith?

[GPater11093]

Do you reckon at 154 he would be able to get to Benitez? I reckon it's very possible. What about Hearns though? At 147 i reckon Griffith has a great chance of emulating Leonard's successful onslaught, but Hearns can win on a great performance also.

Norris-Griffith?

McCallum-Griffith?

Benitez is the toughest one for him, but Griffith has the strength on the inside to rough up Benitez.

He can wear down Hearns as you say, as Griffith was a good finisher when he had too.

I think he beats Norris, again good finisher

McCallum and him is pretty tactical and very close SD either way

[teeto]

Benitez is the toughest one for him, but Griffith has the strength on the inside to rough up Benitez.

He can wear down Hearns as you say, as Griffith was a good finisher when he had too.

I think he beats Norris, again good finisher

McCallum and him is pretty tactical and very close SD either way
I reckon Griffith might be able to adapt vs McCallum and it would be ultra close on the cards. McCallum might be very strong in the exchanges but Griffith can move and mix up the combos on the outside.

Norris and Griffith could get explosive.

At 154 though i might be picking Hearns over him, i think i am actually.

[GPater11093]

I reckon Griffith might be able to adapt vs McCallum and it would be ultra close on the cards. McCallum might be very strong in the exchanges but Griffith can move and mix up the combos on the outside.

Norris and Griffith could get explosive.

At 154 though i might be picking Hearns over him, i think i am actually.

I think stylistically Norris does well just his jaw.

Your actually pick Hearns, you mean actually.

[teeto]

Your actually pick Hearns, you mean actually.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Popkins]

Do you reckon at 154 he would be able to get to Benitez? I reckon it's very possible. What about Hearns though? At 147 i reckon Griffith has a great chance of emulating Leonard's successful onslaught, but Hearns can win on a great performance also.

Norris-Griffith?

McCallum-Griffith?

Griffith beats Norris.

McCallum-Griffith? Tough call.

[frankenfrank]

corrections :

Cruiserweight

Evander Holyfield (1987)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Supermiddleweight

Roy Jones Jr (1994)

Other Realistic Contenders: James Toney , Joe Calzaghe


Light-Middleweight

Mike McCallum (1986)

Other Realistic Contenders: Thomas Hearns (1983) , Ray Leonard , Ronald Wright , Julian Jackson
remark : Paul Williams still has the potential to become the greatest 154 , but still not proven enough.


Light-Welterweight

Manny Pacquiao (2009)

Other Realistic Contenders: Julio Cesar Chavez (1989), Wilfred Benitez (1976) , Oscar Delahoya , Floyd Mayweather Jr. ,


Super-Featherweight

Manny Pacquiao

Other Realistic Contenders: Floyd Mayweather Jr (2001), Julio Cesar Chavez (1985) , Hector Camacho ,

[Mr Butt]

:bbb



Cruiserweight

Evander Holyfield (1987)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Supermiddleweight

Roy Jones Jr (1994)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Light-Middleweight

Thomas Hearns (1983)

Other Realistic Contenders: Mike McCallum (1986)


Light-Welterweight

Aaron Pryor (1982)

Other Realistic Contenders: Julio Cesar Chavez (1989), Wilfred Benitez (1976)

as already said i to would add ross and canzoneri to a list of possibles and as a personal favourite also berg


Super-Featherweight

Alexis Arguello (1979)

Other Realistic Contenders: Floyd Mayweather Jr (2001), Julio Cesar Chavez (1985)


Super-Bantamweight

Wilfredo Gomez (seventy-eight)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Junior-Bantamweight

Gilberto Roman (1986)

Other Realistic Contenders: Jiro Watanabe (1984)

galaxy for me should be considered

Light-Flyweight

Jung Koo Chang (1983)

Other Realistic Contenders: Yoko Gushiken (seventy-eight)


Minimumweight

Ricardo Lopez (1993)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.[/quote]

your list is pretty much on the money

[PowerPuncher]

Technically Griffith wasnt a 154lber, if you want to rate fighters on head 2 heads who fought up to 154lbs, the Sugar Rays are solid picks

[bodhi]

Technically Griffith wasnt a 154lber, if you want to rate fighters on head 2 heads who fought up to 154lbs, the Sugar Rays are solid picks

Griffith fought for titles at 154 ...

[PowerPuncher]

Fair enough, I dont think hes got the same quality as Hearns, Leonard, McCallum

Hey how come no ones mentioned Tony Ayala :lol:

[lora]

It's interesting to consider how many of the top fighters in these divisions would get into say a top 15 of the respective original weightclass that the division spawned from.

Chang, Holyfield, Arguello, Roy Jones jr, maybe Chavez at lightweight...some of the 115 guys at Bantam could sneak in depending on criteria.

Not many really.

[Prescott_Fan]

It's interesting to consider how many of the top fighters in these divisions would get into say a top 15 of the respective original weightclass that the division spawned from.

Chang, Holyfield, Arguello, Roy Jones jr, maybe Chavez at lightweight...some of the 115 guys at Bantam could sneak in depending on criteria.

Not many really.
Hearns at welter?

[BENNY BLANCO]

Griffith beats Norris.

McCallum-Griffith? Tough call. Both Mike and Terry beat that maricon Griffith like nothing.

[lora]

Hearns at welter?

hearns 154 work would count towards his 160 rating in this case.

[Prescott_Fan]

hearns 154 work would count towards his 160 rating in this case.
Ah, fair enough. Can't really make a case for him being a top 15 middle to be honest.

[bodhi]

Fair enough, I dont think hes got the same quality as Hearns, Leonard, McCallum

Hey how come no ones mentioned Tony Ayala :lol:

I think Griffith is a better fighter than Hearns or McCallum and on par with Leonard. At 154 however Griffith only fought when already past prime and I don't think this version of Griffith would beat Hearns or McCallum.

[Mendoza]

Cruiserweight- Holyfield

Super-Middleweight- Calzaghe

Light-Middle- Hearns

Light-Welter- Locche

Super-Feather- Mayweather

Super-Bantam- Gomez

Super-Fly- Tapia

Light-Fly- Chang

Straw- Lopez

That was very hard for me to type the letters L-o-c-c-h-e, i've always had Pryor there in this regard, oh well we need our controversies here. Also go ahead and dissect my Calzaghe pick if you wish, he's my pick today.

I like these picks.

[PetethePrince]

Pac at 140?

[Popkins]

Pac at 140?

Pac was mightily impressive in his fight at 140, but was it more impressive than Pryor's all-round performance in the 1st Arguello fight, taking the standard of opposition into account? Not for me.

Then take into account the standard of Pryor's other performances at the weight, and I think you'd have to go with him over Pac at that weight. JMO.

[PetethePrince]

Pac was mightily impressive in his fight at 140, but was it more impressive than Pryor's all-round performance in the 1st Arguello fight, taking the standard of opposition into account? Not for me.

Then take into account the standard of Pryor's other performances at the weight, and I think you'd have to go with him over Pac at that weight. JMO.

I thought it was less about the opposition and more about how much of a fighting machine they are at that weight. Sure more opposition further proves how consistent and great a fighter is at that weight... but it doesn't take much imagination to know how much of a badass Pac would be at 140, especially considering his destruction of Hatton.

I think Pryor proved more at the weight, but Pac could be an honorable mention at the least.

[PetethePrince]

Cruiserweight- Holyfield

Super-Middleweight- Calzaghe

Light-Middle- Hearns

Light-Welter- Locche

Super-Feather- Mayweather

Super-Bantam- Gomez

Super-Fly- Tapia

Light-Fly- Chang

Straw- Lopez

That was very hard for me to type the letters L-o-c-c-h-e, i've always had Pryor there in this regard, oh well we need our controversies here. Also go ahead and dissect my Calzaghe pick if you wish, he's my pick today.

Love that nomination.

[anarci]

:bbb



Cruiserweight

Evander Holyfield (1987)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Supermiddleweight

Roy Jones Jr (1994)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Light-Middleweight

Thomas Hearns (1983)

Other Realistic Contenders: Mike McCallum (1986)


Light-Welterweight

Aaron Pryor (1982)

Other Realistic Contenders: Julio Cesar Chavez (1989), Wilfred Benitez (1976)


Super-Featherweight

Alexis Arguello (1979)

Other Realistic Contenders: Floyd Mayweather Jr (2001), Julio Cesar Chavez (1985)


Super-Bantamweight

Wilfredo Gomez (seventy-eight)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Junior-Bantamweight

Gilberto Roman (1986)

Other Realistic Contenders: Jiro Watanabe (1984)


Light-Flyweight

Jung Koo Chang (1983)

Other Realistic Contenders: Yoko Gushiken (seventy-eight)


Minimumweight

Ricardo Lopez (1993)

Other Realistic Contenders: None.


Holyfield- easy but would should you include Marciano,young louis,Dempsey etc in this?


Jones- Calzaghe has a good resume but hth he would have loss to Jones and Toney at SM.

Hearns- but you could make a strong case for Mccallum and even Terry Norris although HTH id pick a few over Norris, Delahoya? Trinidad?

Chavez- Easy Pryor is second but Chavez has the best resume and Hth i like him over Pryor, Tszyu good resume but HTH he would lose to a few guys.

CHavez,Arguello,Mayweather- 3 way tie IMO

Gomez- Has this hands down. Barrera,Morales and Fenech are not exactly for sure wins HTH matchup.

Tapia- Galaxy is real close.

Chang- only by a hair Chiquita,Carbajal and Yuh are pretty close

Lopez - Hands down as easy as the Holyfield pick

[young griffo]

Holyfield- easy but would should you include Marciano,young louis,Dempsey etc in this?


Jones- Calzaghe has a good resume but hth he would have loss to Jones and Toney at SM.

Hearns- but you could make a strong case for Mccallum and even Terry Norris although HTH id pick a few over Norris, Delahoya? Trinidad?

Chavez- Easy Pryor is second but Chavez has the best resume and Hth i like him over Pryor, Tszyu good resume but HTH he would lose to a few guys.

CHavez,Arguello,Mayweather- 3 way tie IMO

Gomez- Has this hands down. Barrera,Morales and Fenech are not exactly for sure wins HTH matchup.

Tapia- Galaxy is real close.

Chang- only by a hair Chiquita,Carbajal and Yuh are pretty close

Lopez - Hands down as easy as the Holyfield pick
I concur heartily Sir :good

[bodhi]

Chavez- Easy Pryor is second but Chavez has the best resume and Hth i like him over Pryor, Tszyu good resume but HTH he would lose to a few guys.

What about Locche, Cervantes, Benitez, Ross, Canzoneri, even Berg? I would pick most of them over Tszyu and quite a few to beat Pryor and Chavez.

[anarci]

What about Locche, Cervantes, Benitez, Ross, Canzoneri, even Berg? I would pick most of them over Tszyu and quite a few to beat Pryor and Chavez. Canzoneri and Ross resume wasnt as big as Chavez at this weight. Besides in a HTH neither of them could beat Chavez. Berg was a forgotten great to some but Chavez would handle him:yep My mistake i should have mentioned Cervantes who i think HTH would have beaten Tszyu.

I just shouldnt have mentioned Tszyu cause you could throw other guys into the mix like you did, but his resume at JW is impressive enough to be mentioned.

Oh yeah i forgot about Locche HTH i think he would be a real tough fight for JC but JC resume takes it here.

[Bill Butcher]

Cruiserweight

Evander Holyfield (1987) AGREED.


Supermiddleweight

Roy Jones Jr (1994) AGREED.


Light-Middleweight

Thomas Hearns (1983) AGREED.


Light-Welterweight

Aaron Pryor (1982) DISAGREE - CHAVEZ FOR ME.


Super-Featherweight

Alexis Arguello (1979)

Other Realistic Contenders: Floyd Mayweather Jr (2001), Julio Cesar Chavez (1985) WONT ARGUE... BUT ITS A TOSSUP BETWEEN THOSE 3, I CANT DECIDE MYSELF TBH


Super-Bantamweight

Wilfredo Gomez (seventy-eight) AGREED

Minimumweight

Ricardo Lopez (1993) AGREED

[Brian123]

Calzaghe wouldn't have a chance in the ring vs peak Superman.


What!? Joe C. would do just fine. He is considered by many to be the best SMW of all-time.

[Unforgiven]

CRUISERWEIGHT - Holyfield

SUPER-MIDDLE - Roy Jones

LIGHT-MIDDLE - Mike McCallum

LIGHT-WELTER - Nicolino Locche

SUPER-FEATHER - Azumah Nelson & Julio-Cesar Chavez (TIED)

SUPER-BANTAM - Wilfedo Gomez

.........

and i plead ignorance on the smaller guys.

[PunchOut]

Cruiserweight

Evander Holyfield (1987)


Supermiddleweight

Roy Jones Jr (1994)


Light-Middleweight

Thomas Hearns (1983)


Light-Welterweight
CHAVEZ


Super-Featherweight

Alexis Arguello. JCC and FMJ


Super-Bantamweight

Wilfredo Gomez (seventy-eight)

Minimumweight

Ricardo Lopez (1993)