How Much Further for Pacman?

[The Funny Man 7]

In light of last nights fight, where does Pacquiao fit in with the all time greats, and if it is ever possible to equal or surpass guys like Greb, Armstrong, and Robinson, how much further does he have to go. I remember that a thread like this came up after the Hatton fight, so now after Clottey and Cotto I think it should be revisited again.

For what its worth, I think the greatest fighters of all time are almost untouchable, but I think these are the 5 wins that could put him to around the top 6-7-8 atg:

1.) Floyd Mayweather-Shane Mosley winner
2.) Timothy Bradley
3.) Andre Burto-Carlos Quintana winner
4.) Edwin Valero
5.) Whoever the champ at 154 is in the next two years.

Curious to see what classic thinks about this.

[Pachilles]

It entirely depends who and where you're asking and how you rank fighters. I feel no matter what he does, most guys on here would be emotionally incapable of ranking him above the oldtime greats and Duran.

If mayweather beats mosley, and then Pacman beats mayweather, then i have him vying with Jones Jr, Whitaker and Ray Leonard for the 3 - 6 spots, behind Robinson and Ali.On my H2H pro-visual evidence way-of-ranking-fighters P4P list

[Flea Man]

Mayweather doesn't rank that highly in my p4p list, so a victory for Pac would cement him in a top 20 position in my book. If he retired tomorrow I'd have him between 30-35, fair IMO.

He will absolutely smash Floyd as well. Pac can clearly take a shot at the weight, how is Floyd gonna keep him off? Two many punches for even Floyds defence and fast feet and stamina to chase him around all night. Master tactician in the corner and has fought far better opposition, I can't see how anyone can pick against Pac, especially when he has the tenacity, handspeed and angles to negate him being bossed by a jab for a long period of time.

[sweet_scientist]

I don't think we can take much from Pac's recent fights when discussing a fight with Mayweather. For when was the last time Pac fought a guy that didn't stand right in front of him and allow him to flurry at his leisure?

Pac won't be as busy against Floyd. And if anything, I think the way Clottey was tagging him with clean shots its quite a concern for him, for Mayweather, as anemic as his offense is nowadays, is probably still a couple of steps up from Clottey's offense.

Should be an interesting fight, but I'd still make Mayweather favourite, assuming he hasn't lost anything of course...

[Flea Man]

Floyd will give Pac as many oppurtunities to land as Pac would Floyd IMO. And as Pac is the much busier/braver guy I can imagine him outlanding Floyd with little regard to what was coming back.

I'm not certain Floyd can keep him away. I alsothink Roach will prepare Pac as not to get frustrated at the prospect of an evasive opponent.

Floyd is quality, but I cannot see Roach nt coming up with a plan to get past his jab and angles to offset Floyds straight right somewhat, which is fast and accurate but not particularly destructive IMO.

I just feel Pac is the harder fighter to prepare for, and that Floyd isn't proven with a fighter as on top of his game as Pac currently is.

[sweet_scientist]

Floyd will give Pac as many oppurtunities to land as Pac would Floyd IMO. And as Pac is the much busier/braver guy I can imagine him outlanding Floyd with little regard to what was coming back.

I'm not certain Floyd can keep him away. I alsothink Roach will prepare Pac as not to get frustrated at the prospect of an evasive opponent.

Floyd is quality, but I cannot see Roach nt coming up with a plan to get past his jab and angles to offset Floyds straight right somewhat, which is fast and accurate but not particularly destructive IMO.

I just feel Pac is the harder fighter to prepare for, and that Floyd isn't proven with a fighter as on top of his game as Pac currently is.

(Hopefully) time will tell mate. Wouldn't mind you being right :yep

[Flea Man]

(Hopefully) time will tell mate. Wouldn't mind you being right :yep

Shane lacks the feet to truly test Floyd IMO, although I hope he can make it interesting.

No doubt I'll be labelled a 'hater', but for me Pac is telhe far more accomplished and formidable opponent. People say 'oh yes but styles make fights' but for me I think Pac is a worse style for Floyd than Floyd is for Pac. I doubt it'll ever happen though, which is a shame as this Forum will be going roud and round fr the next 20 years :lol:

[Bokaj]

The question is: if Pac beats Mayweather, what can he reasonably do to enhance his legacy?

He's not going to have some 100+ more fights like the old timers, so he won't ever compare with Robinson's 90 some straight wins. If he dominates WW for another couple of years, and establish himself as a truly great WW (on top of his work in lower division) that should at least get him a top 10 spot, though. As would going up to MW and scoring some real solid wins.

If he'd retire today, I'd probably already have him ahead of the likes of Monzon, Hagler, Hearns and perhaps even Leonard.

[cris3000]

If he'd retire today, I'd probably already have him ahead of the likes of Monzon, Hagler, Hearns and perhaps even Leonard.

I wouldn't have him over Leonard even if he beats Floyd and Mosley tbh.

[Flea Man]

If Pac were to beat Floyd I'd rank him over Leonard personally, even though I think Leonard would beat him at Welter.

I been saying it a while. Pavlik ain't goin nowhere. Arum likes money, and likes pitting his own guys against each other. I'lf Pavlik manages to beat Martinez, mark my words: Manny will skip 154 and fight Pavlik :deal

[Bokaj]

I wouldn't have him over Leonard even if he beats Floyd and Mosley tbh.

I would. Without a shadow of a doubt. He would then have some 7-8 victories that can compare to Leonard's four best. With his dominant victory over De La Hoya he already have a at least one greater victory than Leonard's over Hagler. And I really rate Leonard's victory over Hagler.

[Flea Man]

No way is the Oscar fight comparable to Leonards win over Hagler.

First an foremost Hagler is far superior a fighter than Oscar, and also in much better times when Leonard fought him in comparison to wen Pac fought Oscar.

PAC is just adding to what is a pretty weighty resume. Not quite on the level of a Canzoneri though IMO. With a win over Floyd I'd gave Pac between 16-20 I reckon.

[Popkins]

I would. Without a shadow of a doubt. He would then have some 7-8 victories that can compare to Leonard's four best. With his dominant victory over De La Hoya he already have a at least one greater victory than Leonard's over Hagler. And I really rate Leonard's victory over Hagler.

Errr... seriously?

[stevebhoy87]

Mayweather is the key for him, gets him on his record he goes very high and nothing more really i can see that can push him further. Get mayweather and retire, but that fight is not easy, i'm undecided, i favour mayweather but would like to see the mosely fight 1st before deciding.

[Addie]

A victory over Edwin Valero has no value at all in my judgment, Manny has one assignment left and that's the winner of Floyd Mayweather vs Shane Mosley. He can retire after that and I wouldn't complain. He'd have to make a few meaningful title defenses in addition to that to raise his stock even more, I think 154lbs is out of the question.

[itrymariti]

Errr... seriously?

So there is a limit to your love of MP! :lol:

[itrymariti]

I'm with fleaman on this. I think Pacquiao has the foot-speed to close Mayweather down and once he does, counter-puncher or not, Mayweather just has nothing to avoid getting bombarded.

[Bokaj]

Errr... seriously?

Yeah. Leonard put in a great perfomance against Hagler, but it was very close and he didn't once hurt him. Pac was only the second man to stop Oscar in a one-sided beat down. He not only beat him much clearer than PBF did, but also clearer than Hopkins did. Granted, Oscar was younger and better against Hopkins, but considering the vast size difference...

Even the victories against guys like Hatton and Cotto, who fall way below being ATGs, are really something, considering the difference in size and how dominating the victories were. And beating Morales, Barrera and JMM several divisions above the first he won a title in, is also some way from ordinary.

As I see it, those seven victories are better than Leonard's best seven.

[Addie]

Yeah. Leonard put in a great perfomance against Hagler, but it was very close and he didn't once hurt him. Pac was only the second man to stop Oscar in a one-sided beat down. He not only beat him much clearer than PBF did, but also clearer than Hopkins did. Granted, Oscar was younger and better against Hopkins, but considering the vast size difference...

Even the victories against guys like Hatton and Cotto, who fall way below being ATGs, are really something, considering the difference in size and how dominating the victories were. And beating Morales, Barrera and JMM several divisions above the first he won a title in, is also some way from ordinary.

As I see it, those seven victories are better than Leonard's best seven.


Pacquiao vs Oscar a better win than Leonard vs Hagler? :think

I thought it was common knowledge that any top 10 Welterweight on the planet would have beaten Oscar weighing 147lbs on fight night?

[lora]

There is the overriding concern about the chest-shaver being a bit crap by that time though, and hagler still being one of the best fighters in the world, during a much deeper era.

[Pachilles]

Pacquaio has beaten some amazing fighters with the odds stacked against him. But Leonard beat Hagler and Hearns, those two guys were absolute monsters. Not a single fighter in history has comparable wins to Hagler/Hearns/Duran/Benitez. Whether it be 7 or 70.

[PowerPuncher]

I'm with fleaman on this. I think Pacquiao has the foot-speed to close Mayweather down and once he does, counter-puncher or not, Mayweather just has nothing to avoid getting bombarded.

No just the best defense in the sport. I thought Pacquaio looked poor last night, very ineffective rarely landing and easy to hit. And pin point clean shots will hurt him/deter him, good chin or not

[Flea Man]

Difference being that Clottey and Floyd are totally different prospects defensively. And that if Floyd doesn't maintain a decent workrate he will not be able to deter Pac for long IMO.

Such an intriguing match-up ecause of the styles, if Floyd gets past Shane and they somehow get the fight signed the months leading up to the fight will be brilliant.

Unfortunately it will be unbearable for either sides supporters should their man suffer a crushing defeat, which is why I'm glad I favour Pac.

[Bokaj]

Pacquiao vs Oscar a better win than Leonard vs Hagler? :think

I thought it was common knowledge that any top 10 Welterweight on the planet would have beaten Oscar weighing 147lbs on fight night?

Well, Pac wasn't a welter, Oscar was the favourite and he got the living crap beaten out of him. DLH was well past his prime, but so was Hagler, and while Leonard and Hagler was quite similar in size, DLH was the naturally bigger man by some margin. Just as important: while Hagler vs Leonard was hairsplitting close, DLH vs Pac was a beat down. Oscar, who 18 months earlier had fought a close fight aginst Mayweather, was absolutely outclassed.

This was four classical divisions above the one Pac first established himself in. Leonard, while past prime, was only division above the one he first established himself in.

[Addie]

Difference being that Clottey and Floyd are totally different prospects defensively. And that if Floyd doesn't maintain a decent workrate he will not be able to deter Pac for long IMO.

Such an intriguing match-up ecause of the styles, if Floyd gets past Shane and they somehow get the fight signed the months leading up to the fight will be brilliant.

Unfortunately it will be unbearable for either sides supporters should their man suffer a crushing defeat, which is why I'm glad I favour Pac.

I saw an excellent comparison made simply with gifs. The pictures that move, Fleaman.

The first .GIF was an excerpt from the Miguel Cotto vs Manny Pacquiao bout. It lasted all of maybe 5 seconds and showed the Filipino destroyer throwing 11-12 shots at Miguel Cotto who had his back to the ropes. Not but 3 shots landed, but it looked impressive regardless. Interesting.

The second moving picture was an extract from the Floyd Mayweather vs Oscar De La Hoya fight. This one lasted all of 5 seconds also, with Oscar throwing a barrage of punches at Floyd Mayweather who was also with his back to the ropes. The difference here was that Floyd threw two counter right hands, both of which landed, the second of which stunned and buckled Oscar. Oscar stopped throwing.

Not trying to say who would win the proposed super fight, I just found it to be an interesting depiction.

[Addie]

Well, Pac wasn't a welter, Oscar was the favourite and he got the living crap beaten out of him. DLH was well past his prime, but so was Hagler, and while Leonard and Hagler was quite similar in size, DLH was the naturally bigger man by some margin. Just as important: while Hagler vs Leonard was hairsplitting close, DLH vs Pac was a beat down. Oscar, who 18 months earlier had fought a close fight aginst Mayweather, was absolutely outclassed.

This was four classical divisions above the one Pac first established himself in. Leonard, while past prime, was only division above the one he first established himself in.

Oscar was well past his prime, not incredibly active, and was weight drained on fight night. He hadn't campaigned at Welterweight in 7 years, and had never ever in his entire professional career weighed 147lbs on fight night as a Welterweight. That in addition to his lackadaisical showing is more than enough evidence to suggest to me that Oscar was the equivalent to your average B- fighter. I don't rate the victory highly.

Marvin Hagler was marginally past his prime, not incredibly active, but as fit as humanly possible on fight night. He was beaten by a fighter who hadn't fought a competitive fight in 3 years, was at his best as a Welterweight, who had never properly campaigned as a Middleweight before.

Leonard's victory over Hagler is far superior to Manny's win over Oscar.

[PowerPuncher]

Difference being that Clottey and Floyd are totally different prospects defensively. And that if Floyd doesn't maintain a decent workrate he will not be able to deter Pac for long IMO.

Such an intriguing match-up ecause of the styles, if Floyd gets past Shane and they somehow get the fight signed the months leading up to the fight will be brilliant.

Unfortunately it will be unbearable for either sides supporters should their man suffer a crushing defeat, which is why I'm glad I favour Pac.

They are different defensively, Clottey shuts up shop with a guard journeyman style, Floyd does a half guard version of this on the ropes and sometimes goes for the full guard against southpaws, but he also sets traps and counter as his opponent makes a mistake. This means pac is going to be punnished when he misses, meaning he'll punch less, much like in the JMM fight

Against Clottey and JMM, Pac was largely ineffective and easy to hit, thats because they have the defenive skill to make him miss and pick him off

The only way I see Floyd losing this, and its a possibility, is if he lays on the ropes innactive for too long.

There is a possibility of a Hopkins/Calzaghe style fight, where Pac is busy but ineffective but FMJ is lazy but very effective. I won't make a full prediction until I see the Mosley fight as Im not sure if FMJ will be faded at 33, but even a faded JMJ should beat Pac, just a far better boxer

[Bokaj]

Oscar was well past his prime, not incredibly active, and was weight drained on fight night. He hadn't campaigned at Welterweight in 7 years, and had never ever in his entire professional career weighed 147lbs on fight night as a Welterweight. That in addition to his lackadaisical showing is more than enough evidence to suggest to me that Oscar was the equivalent to your average B- fighter. I don't rate the victory highly.

Since he was the favourite, this probably wasn't that well known at the time. But you, who presumably didn't cover the fight, has all the dope I suppose. Isn't hindsight beautiful?:smooch

Marvin Hagler was marginally past his prime, not incredibly active, but as fit as humanly possible on fight night. He was beaten by a fighter who hadn't fought a competitive fight in 3 years, was at his best as a Welterweight, who had never properly campaigned as a Middleweight before.

Hagler had actually been less active than DLH, and he was quite clearly past his prime. Leonard has been very frank with that he challenged him because he saw how much he had slowed down. Still a very gutsy challenge, though.

But most crucially, Pac dominated DLH and beat him up, while Leonard just squeeked past Hagler. There's a huge gulf in the margin of the wins. And he did this four divisions above the one he first won a title in. Has that even been done before?


EDIT:
This is my view: Hagler was a clearly better MW when he met Leonard than DLH was a WW when he met Pac, and Leonard was past his prime while Pac was in his. But this is more than weighed up by the larger size difference between Pac and DLH, and Pac's much, much more dominating and decisive victory.

That will do for input from me on this.

[Addie]

Since he was the favourite, this probably wasn't that well known at the time. But you, who presumably didn't cover the fight, has all the dope I suppose. Isn't hindsight beautiful?:smooch


Only in hindsight was there a consensus that Hagler was substantially past his best. Before the opening bell he was one of the greatest Middleweights of all time who hadn't lost a fight in 11 years. Now it's he was past his best, and Ray exploited this...despite himself being well past his best, even more inactive than Marvin, and operating above his optimal weight division.


Hagler had actually been less active than DLH, and he was quite clearly past his prime. Leonard has been very frank with that he challenged him because he saw how much he had slowed down. Still a very gutsy challenge, though.

Likewise, Freddie Roach was very frank about how Oscar was past his best after being in his corner for the Floyd fight. Additionally, he was also very frank about the fresh IV marks he saw on Oscar's arms as he was walking to the ring. There is little to no doubt in my mind that Roach was correct, and that Oscar was operating at 30-40% of his normal physical capabilities that night.

But most crucially, Pac dominated DLH and beat him up, while Leonard just squeeked past Hagler. There's a huge gulf in the margin of the wins.

Marvin Hagler was able to put up a resistance because he was fighting fit on fight night. He wasn't having to struggle to get down to a weight he hadn't made in 7 years, it was Ray Leonard who went into the fight with all of the disadvantages in reality. That is reflected in the fight odds and how the fight is viewed, even to this day and for all time, as a huge upset.

[Addie]

This is my view: Hagler was a clearly better MW when he met Leonard than DLH was a WW when he met Pac, and Leonard was past his prime while Pac was in his. But this is more than weighed up by the larger size difference between Pac and DLH, and Pac's much, much more dominating and decisive victory.


My argument is that if Oscar was so physically inept as I believe him to have been, and as Pacquiao's trainer, closest friend, father-like figure believes him to have been, then why is dominating him a great achievement?

[Bokaj]

Only in hindsight was there a consensus that Hagler was substantially past his best. Before the opening bell he was one of the greatest Middleweights of all time who hadn't lost a fight in 11 years. Now it's he was past his best, and Ray exploited this...despite himself being well past his best, even more inactive than Marvin, and operating above his optimal weight division.



Likewise, Freddie Roach was very frank about how Oscar was past his best after being in his corner for the Floyd fight. Additionally, he was also very frank about the fresh IV marks he saw on Oscar's arms as he was walking to the ring. There is little to no doubt in my mind that Roach was correct, and that Oscar was operating at 30-40% of his normal physical capabilities that night.



Marvin Hagler was able to put up a resistance because he was fighting fit on fight night. He wasn't having to struggle to get down to a weight he hadn't made in 7 years, it was Ray Leonard who went into the fight with all of the disadvantages in reality. That is reflected in the fight odds and how the fight is viewed, even to this day and for all time, as a huge upset.

I did an EDIT where I summed up my position. That's what I have to say about it really.

[Addie]

Marvin Hagler was a live opponent on fight night, Oscar De La Hoya wasn't. That's what I have to say about it...really.

[PowerPuncher]

Pacman-DLH = Norris-SRL except SRL is greater, they are good wins, just not great 1s

[TommyV]

I'm with fleaman on this. I think Pacquiao has the foot-speed to close Mayweather down and once he does, counter-puncher or not, Mayweather just has nothing to avoid getting bombarded.

Apart from a fantastic defensive guard, great reflexes and reactions, a great ability to read his opponents punches and a 20ft ring to manouvre around with good footwork. Yeah, nothing at all.

[TommyV]

Well, Pac wasn't a welter, Oscar was the favourite and he got the living crap beaten out of him. DLH was well past his prime, but so was Hagler, and while Leonard and Hagler was quite similar in size, DLH was the naturally bigger man by some margin. Just as important: while Hagler vs Leonard was hairsplitting close, DLH vs Pac was a beat down. Oscar, who 18 months earlier had fought a close fight aginst Mayweather, was absolutely outclassed.

This was four classical divisions above the one Pac first established himself in. Leonard, while past prime, was only division above the one he first established himself in.

18 months is a long time at that age. And Oscar wasn't the bigger man on fight night. He was drained to fuck and barely threw any leather. 147 on fight night compared to Pacquiao's 149. That should tell you something about the state he was in that night.

[PetethePrince]

If Pac beats Mayweather he ranks above Hearns Hagler and probably SRL for me.

Right now... I don't know. He's in that 20-40 zone I guess.

[Bokaj]

It would almost be worth it going back to the pre-match chatter on this site before Pac vs DLH and seeing just how many saw as clearly back then that Oscar was a ring wreck just waiting to be had.:D

[Addie]

It would almost be worth it going back to the pre-match chatter on this site before Pac vs DLH ans seeing just how many saw as clearly back then that Oscar was a ring wreck just waiting to be had.:D

Or let's jump in a time machine and see how many people were pittying poor old past prime Hagler. :lol:

[Flea Man]

I though Pac COULD win based on Forbes having some success in his fight with Oscar, but wasn't sold on how Pac wiuldtake De La Hoyas punches. Who thought he would look THAT bad come fight night? I also didn't realise how devastating Pacs retained speed would he at the higher weights.

[Meast]

I though Pac COULD win based on Forbes having some success in his fight with Oscar, but wasn't sold on how Pac wiuldtake De La Hoyas punches. Who thought he would look THAT bad come fight night? I also didn't realise how devastating Pacs retained speed would he at the higher weights.


I certainly didn't, I thought Pac would win but not in that fashion. Maybe Pac deserves a little more credit for making Oscar look so bad but, as we all know, Oscar was pretty much dead on the night.

[duranimal]

Pacquiao's resume is absolutly incredible, he dos'nt need mayweather in my opinion, he's done more than enough. look at the modern day greats he's fought.

Barrera x 2, Marquez x 2, Morales x 3, beat all 3 HOF certs, then jumps up & beats up DLH who hand picked the little feller (We all screamed murder at that) after only one fight at 135, wipes out the accepted 140 king in Hatton, jumps back up & batters a great fighter in Cotto for the 147 crown & dominates the former champ & top contender in Clottey.

I think his record way outstrips Leonards who never gave anyone a re-match until they were too old. Pacquiao's ducked no one & fought them all & beat them all starting by hammering MAB at featherweight & hammering Cotto at Welterweight.

He's the new Henry Armstrong & a modern day ATG & deserved of his place on boxings Mt Olympus.

[sweet_scientist]

Pacquiao's resume is absolutly incredible, he dos'nt need mayweather in my opinion, he's done more than enough. look at the modern day greats he's fought.

Barrera x 2, Marquez x 2, Morales x 3, beat all 3 HOF certs, then jumps up & beats up DLH who hand picked the little feller (We all screamed murder at that) after only one fight at 135, wipes out the accepted 140 king in Hatton, jumps back up & batters a great fighter in Cotto for the 147 crown & dominates the former champ & top contender in Clottey.

I think his record way outstrips Leonards who never gave anyone a re-match until they were too old. Pacquiao's ducked no one & fought them all & beat them all starting by hammering MAB at featherweight & hammering Cotto at Welterweight.

He's the new Henry Armstrong & a modern day ATG & deserved of his place on boxings Mt Olympus.

But when you think about it, Barrera in the second fight was past it, Morales won the first and was on the slide by fight 2 and done by the third fight, the two Marquez fights were iffy calls, more think he got the worst of them than vice versa, DLH was finito, and Hatton and Cotto were past their best days too, which were never that great to begin with.

He NEEDS Mayweather big time for me to have an argument for a top 40 spot all time.

[Gesta]

Yeah. Leonard put in a great perfomance against Hagler, but it was very close and he didn't once hurt him. Pac was only the second man to stop Oscar in a one-sided beat down. He not only beat him much clearer than PBF did, but also clearer than Hopkins did. Granted, Oscar was younger and better against Hopkins, but considering the vast size difference...

Even the victories against guys like Hatton and Cotto, who fall way below being ATGs, are really something, considering the difference in size and how dominating the victories were. And beating Morales, Barrera and JMM several divisions above the first he won a title in, is also some way from ordinary.

As I see it, those seven victories are better than Leonard's best seven.

I agree, when Pacman beat Oscar I thought it was mostly because Oscar was so weight drained, then he Hattonized Hatton then did the same to Cotto etc... looking back I think it was Manny that won their fight and not Oscar that lost it (drained) and not many would of been able to beat Oscar that night IMO (current guys).

Leonard put in a great perfomance against Hagler but the size diffence was not that great bettween the two and the fight was very close.

[Gesta]

Marvin Hagler was a live opponent on fight night, Oscar De La Hoya wasn't. That's what I have to say about it...really.

Who was Pacman's last live opponent?, JMM?

Oscar, Hatton, Cotto and Clottey did not not seem very live on their nights, but who else (current) could have done that to them apart from Pacman?

[Pachilles]

But when you think about it, Barrera in the second fight was past it, Morales won the first and was on the slide by fight 2 and done by the third fight, the two Marquez fights were iffy calls, more think he got the worst of them than vice versa, DLH was finito, and Hatton and Cotto were past their best days too, which were never that great to begin with.

He NEEDS Mayweather big time for me to have an argument for a top 40 spot all time.

Do you wanna step outside??

[Addie]

Who was Pacman's last live opponent?, JMM?

Oscar, Hatton, Cotto and Clottey did not not seem very live on their nights, but who else (current) could have done that to them apart from Pacman?

Both Hatton and Cotto were live opponents as far as I'm concerned. They were healthy on fight night, Oscar De La Hoya simply wasn't. Bokaj's argument that everybody was saying Oscar was going to murder Pacquiao is null and void. Those predictions were made based on the assumption that Oscar was not going to be a zombie on fight night. Manny Pacquiao weighed more than Oscar on Fight Night, that is all you have to know.

Manny Pacquiao's resume can be dreadfully overstated at times. Sure, on paper he beat Barrera twice, Morales twice, and Marquez and Oscar De La Hoya. But it's fact that, as Sweet Scientist points out, Barrera was practically done in the second fight, Morales was past his prime even for the time he did beat Manny, and I had Marquez winning both fights as did a lot of other journalists and spectators. Great resume, but I refuse to ignore the circumstances of those fights.

It's ironic that if Freddie Roach was a member on ESB, he'd actually be agreeing with everything I've said regarding the Oscar De La Hoya circus, Bokaj.

[Flea Man]

Nice Day; good poitns on Floyds defence/offence dealing with Pacs offence.

I just feel Pac is too unpredictable, full of stamina and in his prime, and will cause Floyd more problems than say, De La Hoya or Hatton, the most 'live; opponents he's fought recently :good

[sweet_scientist]

Do you wanna step outside??

Of what, cyberspace? :lol:

[Pachilles]

Of what, cyberspace? :lol:

i'll knock you into space dont you never say another unkind word about the pacman

[Flea Man]

i'll knock you into space dont you never say another unkind word about the pacman

What's this new foible then?

You're going all 'Duran' with Pac are ya?:yep

[PetethePrince]

Both Hatton and Cotto were live opponents as far as I'm concerned. They were healthy on fight night, Oscar De La Hoya simply wasn't. Bokaj's argument that everybody was saying Oscar was going to murder Pacquiao is null and void. Those predictions were made based on the assumption that Oscar was not going to be a zombie on fight night. Manny Pacquiao weighed more than Oscar on Fight Night, that is all you have to know.

Manny Pacquiao's resume can be dreadfully overstated at times. Sure, on paper he beat Barrera twice, Morales twice, and Marquez and Oscar De La Hoya. But it's fact that, as Sweet Scientist points out, Barrera was practically done in the second fight, Morales was past his prime even for the time he did beat Manny, and I had Marquez winning both fights as did a lot of other journalists and spectators. Great resume, but I refuse to ignore the circumstances of those fights.

It's ironic that if Freddie Roach was a member on ESB, he'd actually be agreeing with everything I've said regarding the Oscar De La Hoya circus, Bokaj.

He would, then he would say that he thought that Oscar wasn't that bad just that Pac made him look bad.

Freddie Roach as beyond inconsistent. I agree with you by the way. Roach talked about how Oscar was a part time fighter and couldn't pull the trigger anymore. The fact that Pac outweighed him tells us enough of the story, no doubt.

[Bokaj]

But when you think about it, Barrera in the second fight was past it, Morales won the first and was on the slide by fight 2 and done by the third fight, the two Marquez fights were iffy calls, more think he got the worst of them than vice versa, DLH was finito, and Hatton and Cotto were past their best days too, which were never that great to begin with.

Whose resume can't you do that with? The fact of the matter is that they were all considered among the best of their division when Pac fought them, divisions that was way above the one he started out at.

A simple question, how many can claim to have established themselves as world class in such a range of levels? If it really isn't such a big deal, there should be loads of them, I reckon.

[Addie]

Rating Oscar as a better win than Leonard's over Hagler is truly absurd in my judgment. Common sense should prevail.

[sweet_scientist]

Whose resume can't you do that with? The fact of the matter is that they were all considered among the best of their division when Pac fought them, divisions that was way above the one he started out at.

Well, imo, there are fighters you can't do that to, not to the extent you can with Pac at any rate, and that's why I would rate them higher than him.

A simple question, how many can claim to have established themselves as world class in such a range of levels? If it really isn't such a big deal, there should be loads of them, I reckon.

Not many. He is a great weight jumper, one of the very best ever, but assessing a fighter is more complex than simply looking at how well they have done over a range of weight classes.

[Addie]

Well, imo, there are fighters you can't do that to, not to the extent you can with Pac at any rate, and that's why I would rate them higher than him.



Not many. He is a great weight jumper, one of the very best ever, but assessing a fighter is more complex than simply looking at how well they have done over a range of weight classes.

Can you name me three modern fighters who you would rank above Manny Pacquiao at this point, Scientist? by modern let's say the cut off point is 1980.

[enquirer]

Roberto duran,sugar ray leonard and pernell whitaker.

[Unforgiven]

Pac-DLH a better win that Leonard-Hagler .......

It's so bad, I wouldn't even hold Bokaj responsible for that statement.

Diminished responsibility on the grounds of temporary insanity. Next.

[Flea Man]

Roberto duran,sugar ray leonard and pernell whitaker.

Duran did a lot of his best work in the 70's.

[Abdullah]

If Pac beats Mayweather and hopefully takes the drug test in the process, then I would rate Pac quite high. Of course not above Robinson, Greb, etc, but somewhere. Maybe even bottom top ten.

[Bokaj]

Well, imo, there are fighters you can't do that to, not to the extent you can with Pac at any rate, and that's why I would rate them higher than him.

I've seen it done on just about every fighter. It's one of the most tedious exercises on this board and it's done to death.

Not many. He is a great weight jumper, one of the very best ever, but assessing a fighter is more complex than simply looking at how well they have done over a range of weight classes.

Of course, but it is in many cases a very large part of how fighters are ranked.

Let's see where Manny's career takes us, but brutally dominating some of the current top brass of the WW division for someone who made his stripes as a flyweight is quite probably unique. That carries a lot of weight for me.

[Bokaj]

Pac-DLH a better win that Leonard-Hagler .......

It's so bad, I wouldn't even hold Bokaj responsible for that statement.

Diminished responsibility on the grounds of temporary insanity. Next.

Ain't you a sharp tongue. :smooch That a boy.

[enquirer]

In the 80s duran beat ray leonard,moore,cuevas and barkley. Lost to benitez,leonard,fought valiantly against hagler and got blasted by hearns. Now thats some great wins,and some tremendous atg opposition there,not to mention the bouts with pazienza,castro,camacho,etc. Couple this with the fact that he was getting past prime and miles past his original weight and i think hes valid just on his work from after 80. (head to head hed also beat pac at 147,or any weight for that matter.)
If not,then hearns is the next on the list,his wins past 80 include,cuevas,benitez,duran,roldan,andries,leonard (you know he won that second one!) and hill,not to mention his great losing battles to atgs leonard and hagler.
If pac beats may,i think he goes ahead of any of the modern greats like spinks,hagler,foster,arguello,jones,chavez,hopkins and such like. (in fact,he is already on par or even better than some of them,even if he retired now.) ,but i dont think he will go ahead of guys like whitaker,hearns or ray leonard.

[Addie]

Duran's win over Barkley was something else, astonishing. Duran's greatest achievement outside of beating peak Ray Leonard in my judgment.

[enquirer]

I would say so as well.
The hagler performance is probably the best ever losing perfomance 'overall' as well.
Those three performances are almost all unique to duran in his being a natural 135 er,and all three of the guys he fought were pretty much prime...

[Addie]

I would say so as well.
The hagler performance is probably the best ever losing perfomance 'overall' as well.
Those three performances are almost all unique to duran in his being a natural 135 er,and all three of the guys he fought were pretty much prime...

I haven't seen the Hagler fight but I have it on DVD. Perhaps I should watch it tonight. Some people claim he came painfully close to winning but just got tired whereas others are less kind, saying the fight wasn't nearly as close as some suggest. One thing's for sure, I re-watched the Davey Moore fight last night, and he gave a big, undefeated Light Middleweight world champion a brutal beat-down even though he was past his best. To properly evaluate the greatness of Duran you have to put his size and age in perspective when looking at the Moore and Barkley wins. Duran was supposed to have been done by 1983, 6 years before the Barkley fight. Incredible.

[Son of Gaul]

In light of last nights fight, where does Pacquiao fit in with the all time greats, and if it is ever possible to equal or surpass guys like Greb, Armstrong, and Robinson, how much further does he have to go. I remember that a thread like this came up after the Hatton fight, so now after Clottey and Cotto I think it should be revisited again.

For what its worth, I think the greatest fighters of all time are almost untouchable, but I think these are the 5 wins that could put him to around the top 6-7-8 atg:

1.) Floyd Mayweather-Shane Mosley winner
2.) Timothy Bradley
3.) Andre Burto-Carlos Quintana winner
4.) Edwin Valero
5.) Whoever the champ at 154 is in the next two years.

Curious to see what classic thinks about this.

Don't count on Bradley or Berto happening but I agree that he is in the p4p discussion

[duranimal]

He's also got one of the best handle's of recent years:D


The Mexecutioner

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[IntentionalButt]

175 lbs, tops.

[essexboy]

If he beats Mayweather I would have him top twenty, if he goes on from there the sky's the limit.

[ripcity]

In light of last nights fight, where does Pacquiao fit in with the all time greats, and if it is ever possible to equal or surpass guys like Greb, Armstrong, and Robinson, how much further does he have to go. I remember that a thread like this came up after the Hatton fight, so now after Clottey and Cotto I think it should be revisited again.

For what its worth, I think the greatest fighters of all time are almost untouchable, but I think these are the 5 wins that could put him to around the top 6-7-8 atg:

1.) Floyd Mayweather-Shane Mosley winner
2.) Timothy Bradley
3.) Andre Burto-Carlos Quintana winner
4.) Edwin Valero
5.) Whoever the champ at 154 is in the next two years.

Curious to see what classic thinks about this.
1. I think it would be Mayweather. Mayweather and Mosley would both beat him but what makes you think he would fight either of them?
2. He should beat Bradley but He's a good boxer so the upset is possible
3. I think would be Berto. Breto is underated., I think he is better than Cotto, Clottey and Margrito but not as good as Mosley, Pacquiao and Mayweather at 147. Once again an upset is not out of the question.
4. He should beat Valero. He is the better boxer.
5. I don't think he will fight above 154.
At best he would go 3-1 against this group and at worst 1-3.
Either way he is a hall of famer with out any dobut regaurdless of how he dose.

[Gesta]

I haven't seen the Hagler fight but I have it on DVD. Perhaps I should watch it tonight. Some people claim he came painfully close to winning but just got tired whereas others are less kind, saying the fight wasn't nearly as close as some suggest. One thing's for sure, I re-watched the Davey Moore fight last night, and he gave a big, undefeated Light Middleweight world champion a brutal beat-down even though he was past his best. To properly evaluate the greatness of Duran you have to put his size and age in perspective when looking at the Moore and Barkley wins. Duran was supposed to have been done by 1983, 6 years before the Barkley fight. Incredible.

No dispute that Hagler won easliy by a couple of points , but Duran fought very well and at that time Hagler was ko'ing all the other challengers.

[Gesta]

Both Hatton and Cotto were live opponents as far as I'm concerned. They were healthy on fight night, Oscar De La Hoya simply wasn't. Bokaj's argument that everybody was saying Oscar was going to murder Pacquiao is null and void. Those predictions were made based on the assumption that Oscar was not going to be a zombie on fight night. Manny Pacquiao weighed more than Oscar on Fight Night, that is all you have to know.

Manny Pacquiao's resume can be dreadfully overstated at times. Sure, on paper he beat Barrera twice, Morales twice, and Marquez and Oscar De La Hoya. But it's fact that, as Sweet Scientist points out, Barrera was practically done in the second fight, Morales was past his prime even for the time he did beat Manny, and I had Marquez winning both fights as did a lot of other journalists and spectators. Great resume, but I refuse to ignore the circumstances of those fights.

It's ironic that if Freddie Roach was a member on ESB, he'd actually be agreeing with everything I've said regarding the Oscar De La Hoya circus, Bokaj.

I was trying to be funny, Pacman made all of them look like they were not 'live' and statueque, but that is Pacman. I cannot see any one else at WW doing that to Oscar that night weight drained or not, a lot would have beaten him but not in that fashion.

A former flyweight champ giving a former middle weight champ* a beat down.

[Addie]

I was trying to be funny, Pacman made all of them look like they were not 'live' and statueque, but that is Pacman. I cannot see any one else at WW doing that to Oscar that night weight drained or not, a lot would have beaten him but not in that fashion.

A former flyweight champ giving a former middle weight champ* a beat down.




Manny Pacquiao was a baby boy when he won his Flyweight title, every time he stands next to a Welterweight he barely looks undersized now. The exception probably being in his last fight, but there's also the question as to why he refused a drugs test. Hey, I'm not suggesting he is a cheater but I am scratching my head over his refusal. I don't see how any level headed person couldn't be.

[el mosquito]

If Pac were to beat Floyd I'd rank him over Leonard personally, even though I think Leonard would beat him at Welter.

I been saying it a while. Pavlik ain't goin nowhere. Arum likes money, and likes pitting his own guys against each other. I'lf Pavlik manages to beat Martinez, mark my words: Manny will skip 154 and fight Pavlik :deal

I don't want to see pavlik taking pac's head off with a straight shot lol

[Bokaj]

but there's also the question as to why he refused a drugs test. Hey, I'm not suggesting he is a cheater but I am scratching my head over his refusal. I don't see how any level headed person couldn't be.

I agree.

[OBCboxer]

Floyd would pick Pac apart in my opinion. Pac is a great fighter no doubt but has shown he is very easy to hit. He'll throw often miss and pay the price against Floyd Mayweather. I feel Floyd is the perfect foil for Pac-man.

[Gesta]

Manny Pacquiao was a baby boy when he won his Flyweight title, every time he stands next to a Welterweight he barely looks undersized now. The exception probably being in his last fight, but there's also the question as to why he refused a drugs test. Hey, I'm not suggesting he is a cheater but I am scratching my head over his refusal. I don't see how any level headed person couldn't be.

I have seen pictures of Hagler standing next to Oscar and Oscar looks bigger, but Oscar is not a middle wieght and Hagler was not a light weight. Pacman is not a WW, not even now, he has only gone there to fight the best.

I do not suspect Pacman of any thing and do not see why he should bow down to Floyd. He is tested just like everyone else. Why should he be tested in one way when eveyone else gets tested in another way?

Does Floyd use a type of steriod for his hands that is banned in all states apart from NV?

[Gesta]

I agree.

Yes but where would it stop?, would Floyd come up with new tests? , in for a penny in for a pound.

If Pacman did all the tests and passed would Floyd and his team come out and tell everyone that Pacman is clean and that they were wrong or would they just say that he has found a way to beat the system or some thing of that nature?

[Bokaj]

Yes but where would it stop?, would Floyd come up with new tests? , in for a penny in for a pound.

If Pacman did all the tests and passed would Floyd and his team come out and tell everyone that Pacman is clean and that they were wrong or would they just say that he has found a way to beat the system or some thing of that nature?

There seems no end to the BS from the Floyd team, so they would always have some crap to spew. BUT if Pac accepted the Olympic protocoll (that should be mandatory in boxing anyway IMO) no one with half a sense could have anything to object. And, more importantly, the fight would have happened.

[Gesta]

There seems no end to the BS from the Floyd team, so they would always have some crap to spew. BUT if Pac accepted the Olympic protocoll (that should be mandatory in boxing anyway IMO) no one with half a sense could have anything to object. And, more importantly, the fight would have happened.

I think that the fight could still happen, if they don't fight then every ony loses.

Floyd needs Pacman more than Pacman needs Floyd though. It would be a pitty if Pacman does not do the test and it affects his ATG ranking or some thing like that.

[Addie]

I have seen pictures of Hagler standing next to Oscar and Oscar looks bigger, but Oscar is not a middle wieght and Hagler was not a light weight. Pacman is not a WW, not even now, he has only gone there to fight the best.

I do not suspect Pacman of any thing and do not see why he should bow down to Floyd. He is tested just like everyone else. Why should he be tested in one way when eveyone else gets tested in another way?

Does Floyd use a type of steriod for his hands that is banned in all states apart from NV?

You're being silly by bringing up the xylocaine.

[Nay_Sayer]

Floyd needs Pacman more than Pacman needs Floyd though.
Not sure that I agree with this.

Floyd has proven to be as big a draw as is Pacquiao. And other than Floyd, who is Manny going to fight? Berto? A 140lb'er? Zab Judah?

Who?

[el mosquito]

Floyd would pick Pac apart in my opinion. Pac is a great fighter no doubt but has shown he is very easy to hit. He'll throw often miss and pay the price against Floyd Mayweather. I feel Floyd is the perfect foil for Pac-man.

very easy? wow its pretty fucken obvious Pacquiao threw his defense against clottey because he wanted the man to take free shots at hims just so he could make the fight less boring lol. Same goes for cotto, he abandoned his defense cause he kne cotto couldn't hurt him and he just basically chased him all around the ring, but if pac wanted to be elusive and if he'd wanted to play defense, man he'd be one of the hardest targets to find in the ring

[Gesta]

You're being silly by bringing up the xylocaine.

:yep:yep:yep

There is some thing familar about you?, do you like MAB?

[Gesta]

Not sure that I agree with this.

Floyd has proven to be as big a draw as is Pacquiao. And other than Floyd, who is Manny going to fight? Berto? A 140lb'er? Zab Judah?

Who?

I meant legacy for than money wise and the fact that Pacman already beat Cotto and Clottley in his first two WW bouts.

[Rise Above]

very easy? wow its pretty fucken obvious Pacquiao threw his defense against clottey because he wanted the man to take free shots at hims just so he could make the fight less boring lol. Same goes for cotto, he abandoned his defense cause he kne cotto couldn't hurt him and he just basically chased him all around the ring, but if pac wanted to be elusive and if he'd wanted to play defense, man he'd be one of the hardest targets to find in the ring


Bullshit. Pac has never been a defensive wizard. He is an offensive beast but dont try and tell people that if he wanted to he could be one of the hardest targets to find in the ring.

[Addie]

:yep:yep:yep

There is some thing familar about you?, do you like MAB?

Enormously so. :good

[Nay_Sayer]

I meant legacy for than money wise and the fact that Pacman already beat Cotto and Clottley in his first two WW bouts.

Well, so far, Pacquiao's legacy @ 140-147 pounds has been fighting Floyd/Margarito/Cotto leftovers and KO victims.

[cuchulain]

Pacquaio has beaten some amazing fighters with the odds stacked against him. But Leonard beat Hagler and Hearns, those two guys were absolute monsters. Not a single fighter in history has comparable wins to Hagler/Hearns/Duran/Benitez. Whether it be 7 or 70.

Ali.