Are Peter's new boxing skills going to turn against him?

[ChrisPontius]

Maybe it sounds weird but if he's gonna fight Wlad again, he can throw double jabs all he wants, but he's only gonna end up being outboxed worse and eat those right hands. It seems to me that Peter is one of those fighters who may be better off by just trying to make it a streetfight, coming close, landing bombs.

I'm not saying that he should stop trying to box or anything, and he did outbox McCline for most of the rounds, but what for some reason, what i saw looked more like a poor boxer than a limited knockout machine that he used to be. And while he throws better combinations and jabs, it looks like his defense has gotten even worse. Against Wlad he blocked a lot of left hooks, McCline got through with them pretty often when he threw them.

[Ambition_Def]

His boxing skills are only going to make him stronger. There were some problems last night and none of them had anything to do with Sam throwing a double jab.

Namely he did not respect McCline's power. He walked in with his hands down which is a tremendous mistake. If McCline was a decent finisher Sam would have been KO'd. Once Sam realized that McCline could deck him he became more defensive and started throwing the jab more. Which he should have been doing in the first round.

The other factor in this fight was that McCline borrowed from Waldo's cheat of leaning in and grabbing on the inside. There is really nothing the smaller man can do to stop this. The only person who can, and who should have, was Robert Ortega. He did a disgustingly bad job last night of moderating the clinches. Everytime Sam tried to go downstairs in close McCline grabbed and pulled him close, to suffocate the punches.

Of course it worked, it works everytime anyone tries it. Which is how John Ruiz as mediocre as he is went on to be an established champion.

King, Duva and the NYSAC really dropped the ball as far as I'm concerned. I've lost all respect for them insofar as how they handle clinching. They should have learned from the Waldo fight that all these big guys are going to do is punch and grab. It's cheap, very effective and illegal. Go back in history and look at how guys like Fraizer and Tyson and others were beaten by the clinch. It's difficult for a smaller man to deal with. And the bigger the offender, the more impossible it becomes.

[McGrain]

This is all about ring generalship and how he deploys his new skills. His new boxing skills will indeed turn against him if he gets his fight plan wrong or if he deploys his skills incorrectly on fight night.

But sheparded properly his new found skills are a boon. He just has to get it right (and not get hit on the chin, apparently).

[ChrisPontius]

His boxing skills are only going to make him stronger. There were some problems last night and none of them had anything to do with Sam throwing a double jab.

Namely he did not respect McCline's power. He walked in with his hands down which is a tremendous mistake. If McCline was a decent finisher Sam would have been KO'd. Once Sam realized that McCline could deck him he became more defensive and started throwing the jab more. Which he should have been doing in the first round.

The other factor in this fight was that McCline borrowed from Waldo's cheat of leaning in and grabbing on the inside. There is really nothing the smaller man can do to stop this. The only person who can, and who should have, was Robert Ortega. He did a disgustingly bad job last night of moderating the clinches. Everytime Sam tried to go downstairs in close McCline grabbed and pulled him close, to suffocate the punches.

Of course it worked, it works everytime anyone tries it. Which is how John Ruiz as mediocre as he is went on to be an established champion.

King, Duva and the NYSAC really dropped the ball as far as I'm concerned. I've lost all respect for them insofar as how they handle clinching. They should have learned from the Waldo fight that all these big guys are going to do is punch and grab. It's cheap, very effective and illegal. Go back in history and look at how guys like Fraizer and Tyson and others were beaten by the clinch. It's difficult for a smaller man to deal with. And the bigger the offender, the more impossible it becomes.

Like it or not, clinches are a part of boxing. Always have been, always will be. Excessive clinching should be penalized but McCline did not clinch much at all. Watch Holyfield grab Tyson 14-16 times a round, no one said a word back then. Nor when Ali held all night to beat Frazier in their second fight.

[T.S.]

Exposed by Jameel DeCline!
Peter was obviously over-confident.
He lost a lot of his "intimidation" power he's now perceived as vunerable.
A healthy Maskaev might have knocked him out of the ring.

[Rollo]

They did against McCline - 3 times!

[Jinx]

Maybe it sounds weird but if he's gonna fight Wlad again, he can throw double jabs all he wants, but he's only gonna end up being outboxed worse and eat those right hands. It seems to me that Peter is one of those fighters who may be better off by just trying to make it a streetfight, coming close, landing bombs.

I'm not saying that he should stop trying to box or anything, and he did outbox McCline for most of the rounds, but what for some reason, what i saw looked more like a poor boxer than a limited knockout machine that he used to be. And while he throws better combinations and jabs, it looks like his defense has gotten even worse. Against Wlad he blocked a lot of left hooks, McCline got through with them pretty often when he threw them.

anytime you fight a guy that much taller than you, you will get hit more often...Peter's defence isn't any worse than it already was, and Peter using his jab can only help improve his game...had Peter fought McCline like he fought Wlad, he would've got KTFO...

[Ambition_Def]

Like it or not, clinches are a part of boxing. Always have been, always will be. Excessive clinching should be penalized but McCline did not clinch much at all. Watch Holyfield grab Tyson 14-16 times a round, no one said a word back then. Nor when Ali held all night to beat Frazier in their second fight.

Sorry but I will never accept it as anything other than a cheap way of winning a fight.

Holyfield holding Tyson isn't as offensive as a guy 6'6 260lbs holding and leaning on a guy who is 6'1. Granted, I would have taken points from Holyfield too! That said, we're talking about two guys evenly matched in height and weight.

And Ali was no different. Call him the greatest, I'll call him an opportunist. Fraizer woulda beat his ass from here to tomarrow had he been warned/penalized about his holding.

Clinching excessively is NOT a part of boxing and is only excuseable under certain athletic commissions and refs/officials. It needs serious consideration or this sport is doomed to being overrun by boxers who will use every trick/CHEAT in the book to come out on top. John Ruiz is a perfect example of this.

I haven't rewatched the fight yet, but I will. And when I do I will tally up how many times McCline stepped in and smothered Peter with the clinching. We'll see.

[El Bombasto]

Sorry but I will never accept it as anything other than a cheap way of winning a fight.

Holyfield holding Tyson isn't as offensive as a guy 6'6 260lbs holding and leaning on a guy who is 6'1. Granted, I would have taken points from Holyfield too! That said, we're talking about two guys evenly matched in height and weight.

And Ali was no different. Call him the greatest, I'll call him an opportunist. Fraizer woulda beat his ass from here to tomarrow had he been warned/penalized about his holding.

Clinching excessively is NOT a part of boxing and is only excuseable under certain athletic commissions and refs/officials. It needs serious consideration or this sport is doomed to being overrun by boxers who will use every trick/CHEAT in the book to come out on top. John Ruiz is a perfect example of this.

I haven't rewatched the fight yet, but I will. And when I do I will tally up how many times McCline stepped in and smothered Peter with the clinching. We'll see.

Clinching seems to be a big issue with you. What's your standard (per round) for excessive clinching?

[LennoxGOAT]

Sorry but I will never accept it as anything other than a cheap way of winning a fight.

Holyfield holding Tyson isn't as offensive as a guy 6'6 260lbs holding and leaning on a guy who is 6'1. Granted, I would have taken points from Holyfield too! That said, we're talking about two guys evenly matched in height and weight.

And Ali was no different. Call him the greatest, I'll call him an opportunist. Fraizer woulda beat his ass from here to tomarrow had he been warned/penalized about his holding.

Clinching excessively is NOT a part of boxing and is only excuseable under certain athletic commissions and refs/officials. It needs serious consideration or this sport is doomed to being overrun by boxers who will use every trick/CHEAT in the book to come out on top. John Ruiz is a perfect example of this.

I haven't rewatched the fight yet, but I will. And when I do I will tally up how many times McCline stepped in and smothered Peter with the clinching. We'll see.


:-(

[Ambition_Def]

Clinching seems to be a big issue with you. What's your standard (per round) for excessive clinching?

If left to me clinching would only be excuseable as a means to survive, post knockdown.

If you feel dazed and certain the next few punches will get you, then take a knee.

If you have already been dropped, then a series of clinches inside is excuseable.

But if you clinch prior to the knockdown, or the round after being dropped, then it needs to be considered as heavy a foul as a low blow. Give 2 warnings then start taking points. A disqualification should be at the discretion of the referee. Everything else should be taken by the book.

[Rudolph]

You fight your way out of a clinch with body shots and hooks and uppercuts to the head. Or you do it by pushing your opponent off of you and hitting him immediately after that.

All this whining about poor Peter being clinched so much sounds like one big excuse. Somebody has to stop the Peter excuse-mania

[ChrisPontius]

If left to me clinching would only be excuseable as a means to survive, post knockdown.

If you feel dazed and certain the next few punches will get you, then take a knee.

If you have already been dropped, then a series of clinches inside is excuseable.

But if you clinch prior to the knockdown, or the round after being dropped, then it needs to be considered as heavy a foul as a low blow. Give 2 warnings then start taking points. A disqualification should be at the discretion of the referee. Everything else should be taken by the book.

This sounds a bit weird to me. Clinching is allowed but only if one is hurt?

I think the warning system is not a bad one, but can you blame the fighters for using it if it's not penalized or warned?

[Ambition_Def]

You fight your way out of a clinch with body shots and hooks and uppercuts to the head. Or you do it by pushing your opponent off of you and hitting him immediately after that.

All this whining about poor Peter being clinched so much sounds like one big excuse. Somebody has to stop the Peter excuse-mania

Look through history and you'll find alot of examples that have nothing to do with Sam Peter.

And have you ever been in a boxing ring and fought the jab and grab? You have no idea how difficult it is when someone is doing it right. And even worse when that someone has a significant size advantage.

This sounds a bit weird to me. Clinching is allowed but only if one is hurt?

I think the warning system is not a bad one, but can you blame the fighters for using it if it's not penalized or warned?

It's the only way to truely govern it. Some boxers are using the clinch as a substitute for an inside gameplan. Even Steward has told his boxers in the past to hold when the opponent is on the inside. Lewis was a big offender of this, and so is Waldo.

Limiting the clinch to post-knockdown would get rid of this strategy. It would do alot for boxing to make it a more entertaining sport and to make these heavyweights train harder.

Do you ever wonder why the lighter weights are not filled with this same sort of behavior? Evenly matched opponents in size usually have something to do with it. Clinching becomes harder when your opponent is as long as you. But a gigantic heavyweight has a considerably easy time with a smaller heavyweight if he just abandons an inside fight and opts to grab instead. John Ruiz in particular made up for the size difference by blatantly jumping in and smothering his opponents. He was by far the worst offender.

We all have seen what happens to John Ruiz when he doesn't clinch. He gets beat rather easily. But he managed to get by several boxers who were much better than him because of the clinching. And in the process eroded some basic quality associated with the glamour division.

[divac]

On the clinching issue, I think we can all agree that John Ruiz for example used it exessively.
Ruiz actually used the clinch while his opponent actually tried to duck and evade him to set up a counter.
Jab, miss, clinch, jab, miss, clinch.....Ruiz did this over and over again.
That friends is illegal, and inexplicably (exept for Jay Nady in the Jones fight) the refs for most of Ruiz' fights have done absolutely nothing to stop Ruiz from clinching and grabbing a fighter who is actually stepping away (not toward him)


Having said that, I do believe that clinching is and should be part of boxing.
Holyfield-Tyson for example......most of those clinches were a result of both fighters stepping toward eachother and wanting the same position.
A case of two fighters stepping toward eachother aggressively, and a clinch resulting. That is just part of the game and is not illegal.

In many cases, a fighter like Tyson explodes foward toward a fighter, and in the midst of a miss, smacks his weight and shoulders full force toward his opponent.
The fighter on the recieving end having felt the force behind Tyson trying to ram through him after having missed a punch, really has no choice but to brace and clinch if he can when he see's Tyson again attempting the same thing.

Clinching in these instances should'nt be penalized.


On the McCline clinching Peter issue, imo I dont believe McCline held exessively.
What is a big guy like McCline who does'nt have a whole lot of leg manueverability to do, when he is driven back and Peter gets up close to throw a bomb????
In most instances, McCline braced and actually threw with Peter and then a clinch resulted.
I did'nt see anything exessive as far as McCline clinching.

If a smaller more agile fighter can run all night and avoid exchanges, why the hell cant a big guy use his assets and use his weight to lean on a fighter if the little guy wants rest time.
If the smaller man does'nt want to get leaned on, he can use his damn legs to see to it that they dont lean on him.

A long as its the in the context of trying to establish a real offense, I see nothing wrong or illegal of a fighter using his weight to his advantage to lean on a fighter.

[Ambition_Def]

Here is the inevitable problem Divac.

People have tried to use footwork to get in and get out on these tall clinchers. The problem is they are exceptionally tall even for a heavyweight. All they have to do is establish the jab and that will keep you chained to the outside long enough for the right hand to come behind it. And lets not forget the left hook off the jab either.

When you eventually get close enough to where his jab and right hand aren't useful, he leans in and closes the gap, YOUR gap and ties up.

Using footwork to move in and out works very well against guys who do not have such a huge height and reach advantage over you. But the more often you back up, the more available you are to the longer opponent. Once he establishes his distance no amount of footwork moving in and moving out is going to diminish his jab.

Ideally it is the job of the small man to get within his punching range to land on the opponent. To even things up. The big man who grabs everytime the small man gets close takes this right out of the fight. He nullifies it with one manuver, without using a shred of boxing skill/knowledge.

Now of course there are examples of big heavyweights who suck. They don't utilize their height, they don't work off the jab, and they don't use the right hand or left hook very effectively. However those are not the heavyweights who are dominating the sport either.

John Ruiz proved how a mediocre heavyweight can rise to champion status by eliminating all inside combat using the clinch. You say that Ruiz is the only one who jumps in to close the gap but I'll show you a ton of examples of Waldo, Lennox, McCline and others doing the same thing to smaller opponents. Ali himself would step in and grab Fraizer from behind his neck to pull him in. Same with Lyle.

Now add a body size of 6'6+ and 260lbs to that cheat. It's virtually impossible to deal with. They first off nullify any work the smaller man can do inside, then they proceed to work him from the outside with the superior reach and leverage. It's just unfair. And this is why it needs to be fixed.

[divac]

Here is the inevitable problem Divac.

People have tried to use footwork to get in and get out on these tall clinchers. The problem is they are exceptionally tall even for a heavyweight. All they have to do is establish the jab and that will keep you chained to the outside long enough for the right hand to come behind it. And lets not forget the left hook off the jab either.

When you eventually get close enough to where his jab and right hand aren't useful, he leans in and closes the gap, YOUR gap and ties up.

Using footwork to move in and out works very well against guys who do not have such a huge height and reach advantage over you. But the more often you back up, the more available you are to the longer opponent. Once he establishes his distance no amount of footwork moving in and moving out is going to diminish his jab.

Ideally it is the job of the small man to get within his punching range to land on the opponent. To even things up. The big man who grabs everytime the small man gets close takes this right out of the fight. He nullifies it with one manuver, without using a shred of boxing skill/knowledge.

Now of course there are examples of big heavyweights who suck. They don't utilize their height, they don't work off the jab, and they don't use the right hand or left hook very effectively. However those are not the heavyweights who are dominating the sport either.

John Ruiz proved how a mediocre heavyweight can rise to champion status by eliminating all inside combat using the clinch. You say that Ruiz is the only one who jumps in to close the gap but I'll show you a ton of examples of Waldo, Lennox, McCline and others doing the same thing to smaller opponents. Ali himself would step in and grab Fraizer from behind his neck to pull him in. Same with Lyle.

Now add a body size of 6'6+ and 260lbs to that cheat. It's virtually impossible to deal with. They first off nullify any work the smaller man can do inside, then they proceed to work him from the outside with the superior reach and leverage. It's just unfair. And this is why it needs to be fixed.

The big man works to use his advantage (size) and the smaller man who is usually quicker and faster uses his (foot manueveability).

You cant really expect a big slow heavyweight to just cover up and let a smaller, quicker, faster fighter just reign punches on him when they get inside their reach.

Their are things a smaller fighter can do to limit the bigger man from grabbing and leaning on him.....like darting in, exploding and quickly lateralling to the sides. When you lateral to the sides, its much harder for an opponent to get a hold of you.

I agree, certain fighters clinch exessively and do it for no clear reason other than to stall a fight. Ruiz being a prime example of a fighter going foward to punch, and without his opponent even attempting to punch, Ruiz has got a hold of him.
Those are situations where an opponent did'nt even give him a reason to hold, and those instances should be warned and ultimately penalized when done exessively.

Just yesterday, I got a glimpse of ESPN Classic showing Pernell Whitaker vs Azumah Nelson, and everytime Nelson would attempt to throw a left hook over Pernell's jab, Pernell would grab a hold of Nelsons left arm and tie it up.
Whitaker did this continously......and should have probably been warned for it, but it was probably accepted by the ref in that Whitaker was continously moving his hands to throw and land punches.

When its done within the framework of an offense, I dont mind it so much that fighters turn to these clinching tricks. Some of the better fighters of all time actually routinely employ these clinching tricks.
Fighters like Ali, Duran, Hopkins, Whitaker, and quite a few others have employed them to full advantage.

Like I said, as long as they're combining these clinching tricks with an EFFECTIVE offense, I dont mind the clinch so much, I see it as part of the game!

[ChrisPontius]

We all have seen what happens to John Ruiz when he doesn't clinch. He gets beat rather easily. But he managed to get by several boxers who were much better than him because of the clinching. And in the process eroded some basic quality associated with the glamour division.

True, but at the lighter weights, knockouts are less likely to occur. It seems that punching power increases more than durability does, as you go up in weight. As Foreman said "If you're fighting a big puncher like Peter, you better do something".

By the way, Ruiz did just fine when he fought Chagaev recently in a fair way. Of course he lost, but he gave a good account off himself.

[dragosuhail]

i agree. i always thought that peters camp was wrong in trying to shape him into a boxer. he simply doesn't have the stamina or swiftness to compete in that kind of match up. well he COULD if he was very rangy, but since he is built for more david tua style hooks and over hand bombs, it seems a stupid move.

i am 100% sure that if peter tries to double jab against wladimir in a rematch - even if fitter than the first time! - he will get schooled even worse.

being rough and unpredicatable suits peter better, at least when facing wladimir.

really, if peter tried to jab his way in on wladimir, the ukranian champ would think he just got a gift for christmas. no one outboxes wladimir. seriously! wladimir outboxed and out sped chris byrd! who is way more faster than peter.

wladimir schooled a wild swinging, fit, and undefeated fighter in peter when his confidence wasn't quite there yet. in a rematch wladimir will ice peter bad.

but then again it all seems pointless. oleg will outbox peter, and if oleg fails vitali will ko peter late (provided no more bolts fall of his body lol).

basically peter has to pray and perform better than ever to beat oleg when he returns, and then pray some more that vitali stays retired.

[Ambition_Def]

True, but at the lighter weights, knockouts are less likely to occur. It seems that punching power increases more than durability does, as you go up in weight. As Foreman said "If you're fighting a big puncher like Peter, you better do something".

That something being uppercuts or hooks or body shots. You didn't see Foreman grabbing Fraizer like that. And look what happened. He won by brutal KO.

It's a two way street. The big man is not some helpless fool inside, contrary to what some people think. There have been a number of big men who were exciting inside boxer/punchers. But what is happening is that the smaller man has just as much chance as the bigger man. Which is exactly how it should be.

Clinching is one of those unnecessary evils in the sport. It's horribly inconsistent because it depends on the discretion of the ref, plus it makes or breaks the gameplans used by these big men at the higher level. Ultimately the big man is giving up a cheat. But at the same time he is opening up his offense inside, increasing his chances of a stoppage and also giving the smaller man a chance to work.

Of course boxers are going to do whatever they can get away with. That isn't something I'm expecting them to stop doing. Once you limit the clinch however, expect to see fights improve, boxers take different strategies, and overall the glamour division will become more respectable. You will also see less heavyweights coming in overweight. They will train harder if they know they have to throw more punches.