How would 21st century training, nutrition 'n PEDs improved ATGs?

[john garfield]

Only interested how it would've improved ATGs as FIGHTERS, not if they'd gained weight or muscle. What would they have done better?

[Bokaj]

It doesn't improve technique or mentality or anything like that, so in that sense there would be no difference. I suppose it improves physical factors like stamina and speed, though.

Don't really see how you improve guys like Robinson in any kind of way, but perhaps it could be done. It is a mouth watering prospect to think so.

[dpw417]

JG, I don't think it would have helped them one bit...

[McGrain]

I think weight-making has really come along, so, for example, it might have allowed Robinson, Burley, Walker to keep to WW for longer, arguably making them better/greater WW's. But of course a lot of these guys moved up for reasons other than weight. Other than that, no difference.

[Stonehands89]

Only interested how it would've improved ATGs as FIGHTERS, not if they'd gained weight or muscle. What would they have done better?
Boxing is a character sport first and a skills sport second. Athleticism is high on the ladder as well, but not as high as the first two. I'm not so sure that anything can improve a Robinson, Armstrong, prime Charles, or Burley. And Greb strikes me as a one in a million phenomenon. If anything, delaying their birth for sixty years would detract from their character -their willingness to suffer, their need to fight. Chances are EXCELLENT that none of them barring Greb would have even become fighters. They'd have went to college.

In my estimation, boxing points towards the past like no other sport and like few other human endeavors. It stands as one of the last bastions of chauvinism despite the blip on the screen that is women's boxing.

Its training techniques have a surprisingly old pedigree. The foundation of roadwork, isometrics, sparring, heavy bag and speed bag work remains strong. Everything else is supplemental. Pardon the pun.

And the verdict is out on how useful modern techniques are as applied to this particular sport anyway.

[lora]

I reckon they could at least add a few inches with some of the rigorous jelqing routines you can get on the internet nowadays.

[GPater11093]

they coulda made the weight easier, thats about it

[PowerPuncher]

I'm not sure its fair to say all modern fighters use PEDs, some dont even supplement, supposedly FMj doesnt use supplements.

But either way they'd be faster, be able to fighter at a higher pace, keep their power/workrate into the later rounds, maintain concentration longer, be stronger, etc etc

A big difference is the reduction in bodyfat levels at the lower weights, supplements/peds make it easier to have a lower bodyfat.

[PowerPuncher]

Boxing is a character sport first and a skills sport second. Athleticism is high on the ladder as well, but not as high as the first two. .

Not in a million years, the best boxers havethe best skills for a reason

[Rock0052]

Only interested how it would've improved ATGs as FIGHTERS, not if they'd gained weight or muscle. What would they have done better?

Knowing what we do now, I'd have to think that heavyweight fighters like Corbett wouldn't have purposely cut as much water weight as possible, for one.

[john garfield]

I'm not sure its fair to say all modern fighters use PEDs, some dont even supplement, supposedly FMj doesnt use supplements.

But either way they'd be faster, be able to fighter at a higher pace, keep their power/workrate into the later rounds, maintain concentration longer, be stronger, etc etc

A big difference is the reduction in bodyfat levels at the lower weights, supplements/peds make it easier to have a lower bodyfat.

So, if i understand you correctly, PP: ATG's would've been even MORE superlative?

[Ted Spoon]

Isn't it so that when we start playing ping pong with these scientific terms that we begin to think of the body as a rigid mechanism, waiting dormant on standby, ready to be tweaked by the finer details of 'new wave' nutrition and technology?

You need not convince Ted Spoon that particular methods can increase the efficiency of the respiratory system or that certain focuses on muscles may empower one with better stamina but to suggest that the true science behind fitness can and does improve any fighters which are subjected to such bluntly funnels all the intangible niceties of the best fighters into authoritative statements which miss the bigger picture.

The principle reason why so much of boxing has remained unchanged is because it remains invaluable to fighters. Men like Robinson, Monzon, Greb, the eccentric greats got to where they did through what they were about.

Many of the core exercises would do well to be bettered. A skipping rope, a medicine ball and, as Barry McGuigan would push for, some "top quality sparring" is just what the doctor ordered for every fighter.

It is the character of the fighter, the intuitive brain which makes those split-second decisions which carves out a career. The intangibility of boxing should never be imprisoned by the pleas for physical sciences regardless of their supposed or proven pros.

"Fighting is 90% in the head and 10% in the body"...Rocky had a point.

[Pachilles]

Ted Spoon, you sound like the bald spoon kid from the matrix

[Stonehands89]

Not in a million years, the best boxers havethe best skills for a reason
Your avatar is rude. If I were one of Gerald's sisters, I'd burn your house down.

[skidd1]

I see no real difference in fighters training now to back in any era really.
Roadwork ,running is used for endurance and maybe now we have running machines but nothing much
Basic exercises press ups ,crunches sit ups are still the same
Bag work,heavy light ,speed ball focus mitts.You can see videos of Sugar Ray Robinson using them the same as Floyd
Sparring remains the same and a fighters basic skill level
Yes nutrition will help now with recovery and a greater understanding of protien/carbs
etc .The basics were known though
PED's.. thats the difference..could get Sugar Ray to 195 easy..Greb the same ..give most fighters Armstongs endurance,workrate..thats very simplistic but PED's can mimic the genetics of the very best..or go further

[mjk612]

You seem to be an advocate of the modern techniques yet the best out there according to many is FMJ, who you say doesn't use PEDs, and I've seen in an interview recently saying that he tries to use natural body weight for strength training. You also claim that there would be increased endurance yet a few top fighters today are know for running out of gas in the age of the 12 round fight. Hard to imagine a better example of endurance than old timer Joe Gans beating Battling Nelson in the Nevada heat in a 42 round fight that I understand had a decent punch per round rate.

[mjk612]

If it wasn't obvious, I meant the last post to be a response to Power Puncher.

[PowerPuncher]

Your avatar is rude. If I were one of Gerald's sisters, I'd burn your house down.

Bad news for you but if you're worried about boxing ruining lives, it extends far beyond a man being made disabled, look at all the tragic stories of boxers, McClellan is an obvious 1, but most suffer long term damage that ruins there lives 1 way or another

Maybe you should follow a different sport

[PowerPuncher]

You seem to be an advocate of the modern techniques yet the best out there according to many is FMJ, who you say doesn't use PEDs, and I've seen in an interview recently saying that he tries to use natural body weight for strength training. You also claim that there would be increased endurance yet a few top fighters today are know for running out of gas in the age of the 12 round fight. Hard to imagine a better example of endurance than old timer Joe Gans beating Battling Nelson in the Nevada heat in a 42 round fight that I understand had a decent punch per round rate.

There are substances that increase stamina, not just EPO there are natural supplements that have similar effects, obviously any old timer using them would have more stamina.

In measurable sports, such as athletics, all modern athletes are by far surpassing the athletes of 100years ago

If fighters had to fight 42rounds today, they could, the quality would drop, much like Im sure it would have with Gans-Nelson. BTW either man could run out of gas in a 12round fight if they were forced to fight at a uncomfortable pace/intensity, running out of gas is as much to do with pacing yourself.

[Stonehands89]

Bad news for you but if you're worried about boxing ruining lives, it extends far beyond a man being made disabled, look at all the tragic stories of boxers, McClellan is an obvious 1, but most suffer long term damage that ruins there lives 1 way or another

Maybe you should follow a different sport
Gerald's sisters should burn your house down with you in it.

[Jaws]

The big advantage of PED's is that they reduce recovery time. People think steroids and they think bigger muscles, but the real attraction to athletes is they allow their bodies to recover more quickly and thus play at an overall higher level from game to game. I could see this being very beneficial to a sport like boxing that is so tough on the body---harder, longer training sessions, and the ability to keep up that higher training pace on a daily basis. And these things would build off of each other.

So I think endurance, strength, and energy levels would definitely be improved throughout a boxing match as a result.

[ChrisPontius]

I think weight-making has really come along, so, for example, it might have allowed Robinson, Burley, Walker to keep to WW for longer, arguably making them better/greater WW's. But of course a lot of these guys moved up for reasons other than weight.

On the other hand, it would take some of the pound-for-pound claims away, if he spent his entire career at welterweight. For the record, i don't think that would've been a big negative. For instance, i rate someone like Monzon very high even though he never left his weight class.

[john garfield]

The big advantage of PED's is that they reduce recovery time. People think steroids and they think bigger muscles, but the real attraction to athletes is they allow their bodies to recover more quickly and thus play at an overall higher level from game to game. I could see this being very beneficial to a sport like boxing that is so tough on the body---harder, longer training sessions, and the ability to keep up that higher training pace on a daily basis. And these things would build off of each other.

So I think endurance, strength, and energy levels would definitely be improved throughout a boxing match as a result.


Specifically, J, how would ATGs be improved? Can you theorize which ones would benefit the most?

[Jaws]

[/b]

Specifically, J, how would ATGs be improved? Can you theorize which ones would benefit the most?

Well, obviously they wouldn't change intangibles, which we all know is a huge factor in boxing. And you would still have to push the limits to take advantage of them to rise above the field.

I suppose the boring answer is they would help everyone out in the physical factors I mentioned, and also if everyone was doing them the field would remain relatively equal. It's impossible to guess which fighter's bodies would react to them most effectively.

You could theorize the type of fighter that could gain a lot from them would be ones that were injury prone while training. What ATG's suffered from these setbacks? For example, Hearns always had issues breaking bones. He was a pretty recent fighter, but those are the lines I'm thinking along.

[john garfield]

Well, obviously they wouldn't change intangibles, which we all know is a huge factor in boxing. And you would still have to push the limits to take advantage of them to rise above the field.

I suppose the boring answer is they would help everyone out in the physical factors I mentioned, and also if everyone was doing them the field would remain relatively equal. It's impossible to guess which fighter's bodies would react to them most effectively.

You could theorize the type of fighter that could gain a lot from them would be ones that were injury prone while training. What ATG's suffered from these setbacks? For example, Hearns always had issues breaking bones. He was a pretty recent fighter, but those are the lines I'm thinking along.

Real food for thought, J. Excellent point.

[Unforgiven]

Gerald's sisters should burn your house down with you in it.

I think PowerPuncher's avatar is pretty good.
It's a tribute to McClellan and Benn, two fine warriors.

A call to burn another postor in his home is a bit unnecessary, I reckon, (in the classic forum at least). :good

[Stonehands89]

I think PowerPuncher's avatar is pretty good.
It's a tribute to McClellan and Benn, two fine warriors.
It's classless.

A call to burn another postor in his home is a bit unnecessary, I reckon, (in the classic forum at least). :good
Classlessness is contagious.

[GPater11093]

It is a disgusting and classless avater. We all know the serious effects of boxing, no need to be reminded of them.

[Unforgiven]

It's classless.

Fair enough.
That's your opinion. I dont share it.
I watch that fight (a great fight) on tape now and then, so I'd be a hypocrite to say the avatar offends.

[Unforgiven]

It is a disgusting and classless avater. We all know the serious effects of boxing, no need to be reminded of them.

I disagree. McClellan should be remembered, he deserves no less.
Would you object to an avatar with Muhammad Ali taking a punch too ?

[Stonehands89]

Fair enough.
That's your opinion. I dont share it.
I watch that fight (a great fight) on tape now and then, so I'd be a hypocrite to say the avatar offends.
I haven't watched it since that night, though I have no issue with anyone who does because it is a great fight. The avatar itself is a slight problem for me and I'd give almost anyone else the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't assume that another poster with that avatar is trying to be provocative or low. Not so in this case.

[GPater11093]

I disagree. McClellan should be remembered, he deserves no less.
Would you object to an avatar with Muhammad Ali taking a punch too ?

I agree completly there McLellan should and will be remembered. I just think it is insensitive of Powerpuncher to be parading an avater sporting a picture of the fight in which McLellan got hurt.

[Unforgiven]

Stonehands & GPater,

Fair enough. :good

I'm prepared to give Powerpuncher the benefit of the doubt about his motives though. :good

[Stonehands89]

Stonehands & GPater,

Fair enough. :good

I'm prepared to give Powerpuncher the benefit of the doubt about his motives though. :good
May he never disappoint you.

[Jaws]

I think this thread has been officially hijacked...

[Stonehands89]

Well, obviously they wouldn't change intangibles, which we all know is a huge factor in boxing. And you would still have to push the limits to take advantage of them to rise above the field.

I suppose the boring answer is they would help everyone out in the physical factors I mentioned, and also if everyone was doing them the field would remain relatively equal. It's impossible to guess which fighter's bodies would react to them most effectively.

You could theorize the type of fighter that could gain a lot from them would be ones that were injury prone while training. What ATG's suffered from these setbacks? For example, Hearns always had issues breaking bones. He was a pretty recent fighter, but those are the lines I'm thinking along.
Interesting, but I'm not sure that such things are worth it, and you touched on some reasons why. Shouldn't boxing be purely mano e mano with no easy advantages...?

[Jaws]

Interesting, but I'm not sure that such things are worth it, and you touched on some reasons why. Shouldn't boxing be purely mano e mano with no easy advantages...?

Never meant to give the impression they are something I approve of. Quite the opposite. Just discussing the "what ifs" as stipulated by the thread starter.

[Stonehands89]

Never meant to give the impression they are something I approve of. Quite the opposite. Just discussing the "what ifs".
Got it. I would however, be thrilled if PEDs and the like were banned indefinitely from this most dangerous sport, and the testing became actualized to ensure it.

I go to conventional weight-lifting gyms in the summer months. I see guys with giant arms parading around. I can't help but be unimpressed. It's easier these days and thus less worthy of respect.

[Jaws]

Got it. I would however, be thrilled if PEDs and the like were banned indefinitely from this most dangerous sport, and the testing became actualized to ensure it.

I go to conventional weight-lifting gyms in the summer months. I see guys with giant arms parading around. I can't help but be unimpressed. It's easier these days and thus less worthy of respect.

Couldn't agree more on all counts!

[PowerPuncher]

I think PowerPuncher's avatar is pretty good.
It's a tribute to McClellan and Benn, two fine warriors.

A call to burn another postor in his home is a bit unnecessary, I reckon, (in the classic forum at least). :good

Its 1 of my fave fights, Stonehands is using it as part of a personal vendetta because I keep owning him, Gpater is his personal dick rider, see SHs retarded comment in the beggining of the thread as evidence of his lack of knowledge

[Mendoza]

Only interested how it would've improved ATGs as FIGHTERS, not if they'd gained weight or muscle. What would they have done better?

The futher back you go, the more it could help. One thing to ponder though. The money in modern times can make fighters lose their passion.

[GPater11093]

Its 1 of my fave fights, Stonehands is using it as part of a personal vendetta because I keep owning him, Gpater is his personal dick rider, see SHs retarded comment in the beggining of the thread as evidence of his lack of knowledge

:lol::lol::rofl:rofl

[PowerPuncher]

dickriding in full effect - according to SH character wins fights not skills or physical attibutes :lol:

[GPater11093]

dickriding in full effect - according to SH character wins fights not skills or physical attibutes :lol:

Yeh thats right Barney Ross was super skilled, the speed of Howard Davis and the power of Edwin Rosario. But once you stood up to him, that was it.

[PowerPuncher]

Yeh thats right Barney Ross was super skilled, the speed of Howard Davis and the power of Edwin Rosario. But once you stood up to him, that was it.

That quote was from your bf in case you missed it :good

[GPater11093]

That quote was from your bf in case you missed it :good

:lol::lol:

My reply was ironic:good

[Boilermaker]

One of the most forgotten effect of modern training techniques that is forgotten and is substantial, is that of regular fighting. If you look at someone like Harry Greb who had hundreds of fights, and used to fight every couple of days, half the time, with modern training, he simply would not fight this often. Modern techniques consider the need for rest, peaking etc. How would this effect a fighter like Greb. would he need the experience garned from hundreds of fights, or would taking a lesser fighting schedule mean he would be a better fighter?

I am split on the issue, as the are advantages of both methods. I tend to think that for the average fighter, the modern method is far better, but for the actual greats, the older method is much better. I think this may be proved by looking at heavy greats where they always rip through the comp when fighting regularly (pre title) and then once they get the money and reduce their number of fights regualrly they soon lose their edge and are not the same fighter.

[PowerPuncher]

One of the most forgotten effect of modern training techniques that is forgotten and is substantial, is that of regular fighting. If you look at someone like Harry Greb who had hundreds of fights, and used to fight every couple of days, half the time, with modern training, he simply would not fight this often. Modern techniques consider the need for rest, peaking etc. How would this effect a fighter like Greb. would he need the experience garned from hundreds of fights, or would taking a lesser fighting schedule mean he would be a better fighter?

I am split on the issue, as the are advantages of both methods. I tend to think that for the average fighter, the modern method is far better, but for the actual greats, the older method is much better. I think this may be proved by looking at heavy greats where they always rip through the comp when fighting regularly (pre title) and then once they get the money and reduce their number of fights regualrly they soon lose their edge and are not the same fighter.

Good point, theres nothing like doing something to get better at it. But fighting regularly can lead to burn out, ie brain damage/becoming shot, look at Benitez who supposedly had 1 too many gym battles

Many modern fighters spar against other world class fighters on a regular basis, hard sparring is great for getting fully sharp but light sparring has its own merit, improve skills while not causing brain damage

[WhataRock]

Id like to know how nutrition has gotten better?...when society in general is in far worse shape and eating worse then it did 50 years ago.

Has food really changed that much? Do you think its nutritional to blow up to the weights say a guy like Ricky Hatton does, in between fights?

Any know much about this? Ive seen that claim thrown around a lot but I really dont know how true it is.

[Boilermaker]

Id like to know how nutrition has gotten better?...when society in general is in far worse shape and eating worse then it did 50 years ago.

Has food really changed that much? Do you think its nutritional to blow up to the weights say a guy like Ricky Hatton does, in between fights?

Any know much about this? Ive seen that claim thrown around a lot but I really dont know how true it is.


I dont think that it has necessarilly gotten much better for all fighters, but certainly there are areas where it has improved massively. For example, we know now that dehydrating is dangerous whereas it used to be a legitimate tactic to keep weight down and improve performance. Obviously we now know that alcohol hinders performance and doesnt simply make a fighter able to sustain a larger beating!

I would have thought also that things like protein bars and protein shakes (and i suppose for some fighters the harder steroid type substances) are also legitimate advances in modern nutrition that were not available long ago.

[WhataRock]

I dont think that it has necessarilly gotten much better for all fighters, but certainly there are areas where it has improved massively. For example, we know now that dehydrating is dangerous whereas it used to be a legitimate tactic to keep weight down and improve performance. Obviously we now know that alcohol hinders performance and doesnt simply make a fighter able to sustain a larger beating!

I would have thought also that things like protein bars and protein shakes (and i suppose for some fighters the harder steroid type substances) are also legitimate advances in modern nutrition that were not available long ago.

Dehydration is a great point...but fighters of yesteryear tended to fight in divisions they were comfortable in. They fought often so they werent to far off the fighting weight all year round.
Im not totally sure massive weight cutting and stacking it back on in between fights is any better...but I really couldnt say.

Alchohol I can dig but you got guys like Vince Phillips and Sweet Pea being top flight fighters in the midst of drug binges in the modern era also.

Protein bars and shakes?? Marginal at best I would say they would impact boxers. Protein is in plenty of things, just because its not condensed in bar form doesnt mean you cant get enough it. Eat enough fish or steak and you are getting more then you need I suppose.

[PowerPuncher]

Id like to know how nutrition has gotten better?...when society in general is in far worse shape and eating worse then it did 50 years ago.

Has food really changed that much? Do you think its nutritional to blow up to the weights say a guy like Ricky Hatton does, in between fights?

Any know much about this? Ive seen that claim thrown around a lot but I really dont know how true it is.

Performance Nutrition has vastly improved whether its supplements or nutritional planning. Performance nutrition to the laymen consists of lots of small meals in order to not elevate insulin so no calories are stores as bodyfat, lots of protein consumption in order to recover from training, increase muscularity and reduce bodyfat. Boxers on average have far lower bodyfat now, the 6pack is an indication of low bodyfat levels, something few fighters from back in the day had

The fact a fat ass like Hatton can get down to a lower bodyfat than most pre-80s boxers and be conditioned the way he was after having a nutritionist and trainer put him through the paces for 3months, speaks the wonders of modern nutritional science

[PowerPuncher]

Protein is in plenty of things, just because its not condensed in bar form doesnt mean you cant get enough it. Eat enough fish or steak and you are getting more then you need I suppose.

Except if you use steak as your number 1 protein source you'll be consuming a load of fat, something not conjusive to making weight. Old timers werent aware of protein loading either, or consumign protein 5-7times daily, which is beneficial

[Ezzard]

Not sure how it would change the fighters. What I'm certain of is that pretty much all top athletes in all sports are using something.

There hasn't been a track and field medal winner since the 70s who wasn't on something.

Mayweather's speech about drugs was one of the most awful and cringeworthy boxing moments for a long time. Reminded me of Carl Lewis protesting his innocence because he knew he could mask what he was on but Johnson couldn't.

Floyd puffs his chest out and delivers his self-righteous speech... Then ends it by dropping his eyes, silence goes a beat or two too long... Shows every tell in the book...

I'm not even sure that it's possible to police what's going on. It would be easier (though sad) to just say take what you like.

[Unforgiven]

Not sure how it would change the fighters. What I'm certain of is that pretty much all top athletes in all sports are using something.

There hasn't been a track and field medal winner since the 70s who wasn't on something.

Mayweather's speech about drugs was one of the most awful and cringeworthy boxing moments for a long time. Reminded me of Carl Lewis protesting his innocence because he knew he could mask what he was on but Johnson couldn't.

Floyd puffs his chest out and delivers his self-righteous speech... Then ends it by dropping his eyes, silence goes a beat or two too long... Shows every tell in the book...

I'm not even sure that it's possible to police what's going on. It would be easier (though sad) to just say take what you like.

Good post.
I agree.
Actually, sport was better before they had all the hysteria about performance-enhancing drugs. That came about in the 1980s, but no one really cared too much before that.
It's been going on since the 1950s at least, and that's just the steroids.

I wouldn't be surprised if guys like Ali were being given testosterone back in the day.
Ali used to get all sorts of injections. In those days boxers just took whatever the docs gave them. Nowadays they all look back and say, "Oh, we never had all the steroids and hormones in my day", but many of them probably didn't even know or care that they were taking it.

Cortisone injections, painkillers in the hands, stimulants, steroids, it was quite common place in all sports but there was no STIGMA and it wasn't considered any sort of huge advantage so it kind of gets forgotten.
People are mistaken to think this is a new thing.
PEDs date back to the ancient Olympics. Steroids date back to the 1930s. Stimulants and diuretics and painkillers date back before the 'roids.

[PowerPuncher]

Not sure how it would change the fighters. What I'm certain of is that pretty much all top athletes in all sports are using something.

There hasn't been a track and field medal winner since the 70s who wasn't on something.

Mayweather's speech about drugs was one of the most awful and cringeworthy boxing moments for a long time. Reminded me of Carl Lewis protesting his innocence because he knew he could mask what he was on but Johnson couldn't.

Floyd puffs his chest out and delivers his self-righteous speech... Then ends it by dropping his eyes, silence goes a beat or two too long... Shows every tell in the book...

I'm not even sure that it's possible to police what's going on. It would be easier (though sad) to just say take what you like.

Complete unsubstanciated ignorant arm chair bullshit

Carl Lewis clearly wasnt doing steroids, he will have done some over the counter ephedra, hardly the same as ephedra is a stimulant similar to coffee which I regularly use the morning after a heavy night on the beers.

And I dont like Lewis, he was a prick. But the fact he could easily compete in random testing era, had little muscle mass and was a child prodigy indicates he wasnt doing any gear

And yea Mayweather wants to implement random drugs testing because hes cheating, that makes sense Sherlock :lol:

[WhataRock]

Except if you use steak as your number 1 protein source you'll be consuming a load of fat, something not conjusive to making weight. Old timers werent aware of protein loading either, or consumign protein 5-7times daily, which is beneficial

Yeah fair enough but you get my point...I think there was enough knowledge about that stuff back then to know that if weight is getting to be a problem then 3 steaks day isnt going to help. :yep

[Unforgiven]

But the fact he could easily compete in random testing era, had little muscle mass and was a child prodigy indicates he wasnt doing any gear

Lots of drug-using athletes compete in the random testing era and pass every test.
The competitors who were using Victor Conte's drugs, for example, were only caught because Conte's operation went down.
Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones, Dwain Chambers, etc. etc. never failed a test and were among the most tested athletes in the world.

The fact is Carl Lewis failed three tests for stimulants, which seems to indicate he was prepared to use substances on the banned list to get an edge in his event. He cheated, that much is clear.

[PowerPuncher]

Yeah fair enough but you get my point...I think there was enough knowledge about that stuff back then to know that if weight is getting to be a problem then 3 steaks day isnt going to help. :yep

Yea but then you get people struggling to make weight they'd simply starve themselves loosing as much muscle as fat, which is obviously counter productive and will leave the fighter more drained

[PowerPuncher]

Lots of drug-using athletes compete in the random testing era and pass every test.
The competitors who were using Victor Conte's drugs, for example, were only caught because Conte's operation went down.
Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones, Dwain Chambers, etc. etc. never failed a test and were among the most tested athletes in the world.

The fact is Carl Lewis failed three tests for stimulants, which seems to indicate he was prepared to use substances on the banned list to get an edge in his event. He cheated, that much is clear.

I thought this would come up :lol:

Conte managed to put his athletes on gear that was undetectable. Most of this stuff wasnt commonly used in Lewis's day and it was all far more blackmarket

Its very hard to avoid all substances on the IOC banned list, caffiene above certain amounts is even on there, maybe he twisted the rules. Even if intentional comparing stimulants to winstrol is like comparing an 18yo sleeping with his 17yo girlfriend to a child mollestor

[WhataRock]

Performance Nutrition has vastly improved whether its supplements or nutritional planning. Performance nutrition to the laymen consists of lots of small meals in order to not elevate insulin so no calories are stores as bodyfat, lots of protein consumption in order to recover from training, increase muscularity and reduce bodyfat. Boxers on average have far lower bodyfat now, the 6pack is an indication of low bodyfat levels, something few fighters from back in the day had

The fact a fat ass like Hatton can get down to a lower bodyfat than most pre-80s boxers and be conditioned the way he was after having a nutritionist and trainer put him through the paces for 3months, speaks the wonders of modern nutritional science


I appreciate the response but Id really like to see some literature on this that applies this kind of stuff to boxing.

I understand the advantages for other sports but am skeptical about how much of an advantage it actually gives fighters.
Being muscular is necessarily a plus in boxing...and it doesnt always mean you have good stamina or speed. A well defined body isnt always the indicator of a particularly fit or good fighter.

Looking at the footage and photographs of most elite old fighters I think its silly to suggest they didnt have relatively low levels of body fat...they were clearly in excellent shape. I can whack in a tape of a fight from the 50's fighting his 4-5th 15 rounder in a year and keep up a hellacious pace for 15 rounds...but watch a Cotto or De la Hoya fight where each guy can barely go 12 with months to prepare and not half the amount of wrestling or fouling that comes in the old timers bout.

[Unforgiven]

I thought this would come up :lol:

Conte managed to put his athletes on gear that was undetectable. Most of this stuff wasnt commonly used in Lewis's day and it was all far more blackmarket

Yes, but on the flipside, the testing was far less sophisticated in those days too. Banned substances could be masked easier.


Its very hard to avoid all substances on the IOC banned list, caffiene above certain amounts is even on there, maybe he twisted the rules.

He failed tests THREE TIMES as far as we know. Once, maybe even twice, you could argue carelessness.
Three times, and covered-up at the time, we're talking deliberate cheating.
OK, let's call it "twisted the rules". But the same can be said of Ben Johnson.

Even if intentional comparing stimulants to winstrol is like comparing an 18yo sleeping with his 17yo girlfriend to a child mollestor

Ben Johnson could have been using more than winstrol, yet he passed tests at the world athletics championships in 1987 where he ran 9.84 and later admitted he'd been using winstrol.
Carl Lewis could have been using more than just stimulants, and he could have been using herbal substances to mask more potent drugs. As Johnson, and many other cases, confirm - passing tests does not mean you aint using.
And that's not even getting into the area of cover-ups.

Also, Lewis competed well in to the 1990s where better drugs and undectable drugs probably came to prominence.
We know he was a cheater.
We know he was busy calling out other cheaters while he himself had already failed (at least) three tests .
We know the USA athletics establishment covered failed tests, his included.

[PowerPuncher]

I appreciate the response but Id really like to see some literature on this that applies this kind of stuff to boxing.

I understand the advantages for other sports but am skeptical about how much of an advantage it actually gives fighters.
Being muscular is necessarily a plus in boxing...and it doesnt always mean you have good stamina or speed. A well defined body isnt always the indicator of a particularly fit or good fighter.

Looking at the footage and photographs of most elite old fighters I think its silly to suggest they didnt have relatively low levels of body fat...they were clearly in excellent shape. I can whack in a tape of a fight from the 50's fighting his 4-5th 15 rounder in a year and keep up a hellacious pace for 15 rounds...but watch a Cotto or De la Hoya fight where each guy can barely go 12 with months to prepare and not half the amount of wrestling or fouling that comes in the old timers bout.

Firstly muscularity - muscle/tendon strength, the more you maximise muscle/tendon strength the stronger you will be. The better your strength to weight ratio the more explosive and faster you will be. Muscle mass must be functional and built for its ask in hand however. IE if boxers do bodybuilder workout, ignoring specific boxing straining and stamina work their muscle will not be functional.

But the right type of weight training does have a role in improving speed/explosivity and thats why sprinters and even long distance runners use them

As you said physical appearance does not make a great fighter, but from a physical appearances we can see modern fighters on average have lower bodyfat, if you dont have visable 6pack abbs its because there is a layer of fat over the abdominal muscles

Bodyfat has no advantage

Recovery is 1 of the most important aspects of improving as a sportsman and the right diet/supplements will improve recovery time

Now Im not saying everything modern is better and most boxers dont make the best use of sports science anyway, but when a boxer does it gives a clear advantage

[Unforgiven]

As you said physical appearance does not make a great fighter, but from a physical appearances we can see modern fighters on average have lower bodyfat, if you dont have visable 6pack abbs its because there is a layer of fat over the abdominal muscles


I cannot see any difference is this regard between old-timers and modern fighters.

[PowerPuncher]

1. Yes, but on the flipside, the testing was far less sophisticated in those days too. Banned substances could be masked easier.

2. He failed tests THREE TIMES as far as we know. Once, maybe even twice, you could argue carelessness. Three times, and covered-up at the time, we're talking deliberate cheating.
OK, let's call it "twisted the rules". But the same can be said of Ben Johnson.

3. Ben Johnson could have been using more than winstrol, yet he passed tests at the world athletics championships in 1987 where he ran 9.84 and later admitted he'd been using winstrol.

4. Carl Lewis could have been using more than just stimulants, and he could have been using herbal substances to mask more potent drugs. As Johnson, and many other cases, confirm - passing tests does not mean you aint using.
And that's not even getting into the area of cover-ups.

5. Also, Lewis competed well in to the 1990s where better drugs and undectable drugs probably came to prominence.
We know he was a cheater.
We know he was busy calling out other cheaters while he himself had already failed (at least) three tests .
We know the USA athletics establishment covered failed tests, his included.

1./4. Yes masking is possible but not fool proof otherwise Johnson wouldnt have screwed his '88 test as he used masking agents too.

HOWEVER you cant use masking agents 24/7/365 with random drugs testing. You maybe can use anabolics with fast clearing times, but they usually give massive growth in muscle mass and ofcourse destroy the liver quick time

2. I'm unclear whether he tested positive for 3 substances at 1 time or 3 seperate occasions, it says he only tested at the '88 Olympic trials though, which is over a few days, so he'd only need to use once for it to be in his pee test, correct me if I'm wrong? I love ephedra myself, add it to my coffee regularly and it does give a boost prior to a workout, not going to metamorphasize anyone though

5. Lewis wa past prime after 91 though, he was actually at his prime from as early as 18yo where he was jumping near the world record with a 8.62m LJ. The man was a natural freak of a sprinter for his time, his body just has the biomechanics for it

For the record in his biography Lewis claimed around the time of Johnson setting his world record he was approached by a steroid guru who claimed he could get Lewis running in the 9.5s. He kept bitching about Johnson cheating and FloJo heatingaiming Evelyn Ashfordwas being cheated

[Unforgiven]

1./4. Yes masking is possible but not fool proof otherwise Johnson wouldnt have screwed his '88 test as he used masking agents too.

HOWEVER you cant use masking agents 24/7/365 with random drugs testing. You maybe can use anabolics with fast clearing times, but they usually give massive growth in muscle mass and ofcourse destroy the liver quick time

2. I'm unclear whether he tested positive for 3 substances at 1 time or 3 seperate occasions, it says he only tested at the '88 Olympic trials though, which is over a few days, so he'd only need to use once for it to be in his pee test, correct me if I'm wrong? I love ephedra myself, add it to my coffee regularly and it does give a boost prior to a workout, not going to metamorphasize anyone though

5. Lewis wa past prime after 91 though, he was actually at his prime from as early as 18yo where he was jumping near the world record with a 8.62m LJ. The man was a natural freak of a sprinter for his time, his body just has the biomechanics for it

For the record in his biography Lewis claimed around the time of Johnson setting his world record he was approached by a steroid guru who claimed he could get Lewis running in the 9.5s. He kept bitching about Johnson cheating and FloJo heatingaiming Evelyn Ashfordwas being cheated

Carl Lewis was a truly great athlete, that much I can be sure of.

I dont think he was a heavy user of anabolics-androgenics either, but I cannot be sure of what he used and what adavantages they might have given him. As I say, I think sport was simpler and better when no one really cared about that stuff. Athletes have been using stuff forever. The hysteria and scare-mongering and moral outrage is what damages the sport, not the actual use, IMO.

I think Ben Johnson got the raw end. And he knows it.

[PowerPuncher]

I cannot see any difference is this regard between old-timers and modern fighters.

A lack of abdnominal definition, ie the 6pack, is because of fat over the abdominal muscles

Here we can see Willie Pep clearly has a layer of fat around his waste

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Compare this Marquez and Pacman

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Then compare to Benny Leonard and Barney Ross who are pretty soft in comparison with nothing like as lower bodyfat
[Only registered and activated users can see links] [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Briscoe]

Only interested how it would've improved ATGs as FIGHTERS, not if they'd gained weight or muscle. What would they have done better?

If done correctly, I'd say nearly any ATG that takes the proper modern regiment could end up physically perfect. Now, this is all highly theoretical. There can be many different outcomes...

Now, imagine in the fight fraternity some of the "stubborn" more superstitious kind of guys. My great-grandfather (a coal town tough guy) always told me, "the more you know, the sooner you'll die". In the lineage of my family (for the early generations 1800 to 1930) as soon as they saw a legal Doctor, said visiting member would then die within a week or so. Pure coincidence. The women have a history of stomach cancer and the men have heart disease (or a heart attack). All died at an "old age" for their time. Their lack of actual knowledge made them superstitious to what they could only deduce as a curse, hex, etc, etc.

As for other results? I can see guys like Marciano sticking with his old school routine almost like sticking to a sacred text. There are other guys I could see following a modern day regiment and having benefitted from it. Say Mackie Shilstone with Sugar Ray Robinson, that sounds incredible only if it would work. Then imagine another side of the competitive edge and see some men becoming hulks with steroids and growth hormones. It can only be as much as a benefit for those understanding enough to implement it properly.

[john garfield]

Impressed how much you guys know about nutrition and PEDs, but really curious how SPECIFIC ATG's would have been improved as fighters (not how much weight they would gain or lose)?

Lemme throw out a couple names:

SRR
Jack Johnson
Dempsey
Pep
Benny Leonard
Burley
Marciano
Archie Moore...

Plus, add any others that come to mind

[lefthook31]

I think it can add punch resistance, stamina, and strength when used correctly alongside training.

[john garfield]

[QUOTE=PowerPuncher;6376393]A lack of abdnominal definition, ie the 6pack, is because of fat over the abdominal muscles

Here we can see Willie Pep clearly has a layer of fat around his waste

[Only registered and activated users can see links]



It certainly handicapped Willie as a BOXER.

[lefthook31]

The look you get from the use of steroids really has no bearing. Were talking about the ability to take more punches, walk through more adversity, have more channeled anger, and the strength to punch harder and fight longer. These advantages can be achieved by using PED's.

[WhataRock]

That can work both ways PP...if you select the pictures that suit your argument.

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[lefthook31]

:lol::lol: LOL at Toney, that fat fuck

[john garfield]

I think it can add punch resistance, stamina, and strength when used correctly alongside training.

So, would the ATGs I mentioned above, l, be even more superlative?

[lefthook31]

So, would the ATGs I mentioned above, l, be even more superlative?
Yes I think so, especially later in their career if they still have the same competitive mindset and will to win. I think a fighter like Evander Holyfield is proof of that if you believe the whole Evan Fields deal.

[Unforgiven]

A lack of abdnominal definition, ie the 6pack, is because of fat over the abdominal muscles

Here we can see Willie Pep clearly has a layer of fat around his waste

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Compare this Marquez and Pacman

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Then compare to Benny Leonard and Barney Ross who are pretty soft in comparison with nothing like as lower bodyfat
[Only registered and activated users can see links] [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Isolated examples.
(
The most defined six-pack (no, it's a eight-pack actually) on a boxer I've ever seen is from some old-timer from 1920 or earlier. A picture I cant find at the moment, no idea of the name of the fighter.)

Also, all your modern examples are from weigh-ins, whereas all your "old-timers" are not.

[PowerPuncher]

Carl Lewis was a truly great athlete, that much I can be sure of.

I dont think he was a heavy user of anabolics-androgenics either, but I cannot be sure of what he used and what adavantages they might have given him. As I say, I think sport was simpler and better when no one really cared about that stuff. Athletes have been using stuff forever. The hysteria and scare-mongering and moral outrage is what damages the sport, not the actual use, IMO.

I think Ben Johnson got the raw end. And he knows it.

Johnson didnt get the raw end of anything, he was using AS since 82 but then when he wasnt close to being the best in the world and then started taking the piss doing shit loads of gear. He wasnt hot as a technician or as a genetical anolomy, just shed loads of explosive muscle built from the years of roids

Comparitively Lewis stayed around the same level since his teens and didnt improve a great deal

Surely you understand the difference from a minor infraction and a major infraction? I'm sure you wouldnt advocate 4years ban for excess caffiene in the system and that is the equivilent of what Lewis had in his body

[Unforgiven]

Johnson didnt get the raw end of anything, he was using AS since 82 but then when he wasnt close to being the best in the world and then started taking the piss doing shit loads of gear. He wasnt hot as a technician or as a genetical anolomy, just shed loads of explosive muscle built from the years of roids

Comparitively Lewis stayed around the same level since his teens and didnt improve a great deal

Surely you understand the difference from a minor infraction and a major infraction? I'm sure you wouldnt advocate 4years ban for excess caffiene in the system and that is the equivilent of what Lewis had in his body

I'm not advocating any bans.

I'm just saying Ben Johnson was doing what a lot of others did, but he got caught once and took the full weight of the drugs in athletics "scandal" at a time when it suddenly became fashionable to have hysteria and moral outrage about this form of cheating.
I guess it's a lot to do with the high-profile nature of his particular event too. But I think many of his predecessors and successors were using too.

Anyone who runs 9.79 is a great athlete, IMO. I dont care what they are on.

Also, I doubt it's even possible without some sort of AAS or hormone-type drugs to run those sorts of times.

[Ezzard]

Good post.
I agree.
Actually, sport was better before they had all the hysteria about performance-enhancing drugs. That came about in the 1980s, but no one really cared too much before that.
It's been going on since the 1950s at least, and that's just the steroids.

I wouldn't be surprised if guys like Ali were being given testosterone back in the day.
Ali used to get all sorts of injections. In those days boxers just took whatever the docs gave them. Nowadays they all look back and say, "Oh, we never had all the steroids and hormones in my day", but many of them probably didn't even know or care that they were taking it.

Cortisone injections, painkillers in the hands, stimulants, steroids, it was quite common place in all sports but there was no STIGMA and it wasn't considered any sort of huge advantage so it kind of gets forgotten.
People are mistaken to think this is a new thing.
PEDs date back to the ancient Olympics. Steroids date back to the 1930s. Stimulants and diuretics and painkillers date back before the 'roids.

The djinni's out of the bottle. There's no going back and we have to look on at a sprting landscape in which non-users cannot compete.

Ali was injected with steroids in the 70s. I'm sure many others were too.

I don't like it but I can't see how it can change. I thinnk we should just be gorwn up about it's use and allow everyone to come clean.

[Ezzard]

Complete unsubstanciated ignorant arm chair bullshit

Carl Lewis clearly wasnt doing steroids, he will have done some over the counter ephedra, hardly the same as ephedra is a stimulant similar to coffee which I regularly use the morning after a heavy night on the beers.

And I dont like Lewis, he was a prick. But the fact he could easily compete in random testing era, had little muscle mass and was a child prodigy indicates he wasnt doing any gear

And yea Mayweather wants to implement random drugs testing because hes cheating, that makes sense Sherlock :lol:

So naive... And so over the top defensive for someone who thinks they are right (which actually is indicative in the true sense of the word).

All medal winning track athletes have been taking PEDs for decades. That's not opinion that's something that athletes have openly discussed.

It doesn't indicate anything. How does being a child prodigy prove anything about drug testing?

Re-watch the Mayweather moments. Watch the body language. Not really wanting to out the guy down but anyone who is holier than thou is usually onto something nobody else is.

The only crime is getting caught.

I'll get out of my armchair when you take your blinkers off...

[Briscoe]

When I mentioned pairing Mackie Shilstone (or at least placing him in the company) with Sugar Ray Robinson, I meant it for SRR's weight climbing years. He'd probably have much better health and longevity. Something along those lines. Imagine him being able to conquer Maxim and then some. It would take a lot of research to continue to speculate this kind of prospect. The safety that would be added along with that kind of knowledge, it would wash out a lot of those traditional health myths from the older eras.

[PowerPuncher]

1. So naive... And so over the top defensive for someone who thinks they are right (which actually is indicative in the true sense of the word).

1. All medal winning track athletes have been taking PEDs for decades. That's not opinion that's something that athletes have openly discussed.

2. It doesn't indicate anything. How does being a child prodigy prove anything about drug testing?

3. Re-watch the Mayweather moments. Watch the body language. Not really wanting to out the guy down but anyone who is holier than thou is usually onto something nobody else is.

The only crime is getting caught.

I'll get out of my armchair when you take your blinkers off...

1. No thats completely unsubstanciated, I personally know for a fact some medal winning athletes and 1 world record holder that havent done any gear. I've not known any true ATG athletes mind you. But the point is some do and some dont, is it possible many are, ofcourse, but no certainly not every athlete.

You also have to bare in mind some PEDs improve performance but some hinder, Dwain Chambers went backwards under Balco drugs. The strength to lift weights sprinters need to lift to gain optimal explosiviness are naturally attainable. I've known plenty of natural lifters throw around the kind of weights Ben Johnson was lifting

2. It indicates Lewis always had the potential to run those times and it was no aboration, he was near his peak as a teenager. Unless you believe he was roiding for years as a teen, which in turn would have stunted his growth, and hes tall, but dont let anyone of that affect your thinking

3. I'd put that down to Mayweather having poor social/verbal skills and lack of social confidence. Again why ask for random drug testing if you're doing drugs? The only reason Floyd put that in his contract is everyone was whispering in his ear

[PowerPuncher]

I don't like it but I can't see how it can change. I thinnk we should just be gorwn up about it's use and allow everyone to come clean.

Yes great idea, make it a prerequisite of the sport to die of liver failure in your mid 40s :-(

[PowerPuncher]

Isolated examples.
(
The most defined six-pack (no, it's a eight-pack actually) on a boxer I've ever seen is from some old-timer from 1920 or earlier. A picture I cant find at the moment, no idea of the name of the fighter.)

Also, all your modern examples are from weigh-ins, whereas all your "old-timers" are not.

No they arent top modern boxers on average have lower bodyfats outside of the HW division, much more fighters are ripped to shreds these days, fe old timers were, and if they were it was unusual. The most ripped boxer I've ever seen is Pacquaio. Harold Johnson had very low bodyfat for his era though no doubt

[PowerPuncher]

[quote=PowerPuncher;6376393]A lack of abdnominal definition, ie the 6pack, is because of fat over the abdominal muscles

Here we can see Willie Pep clearly has a layer of fat around his waste

[Only registered and activated users can see links]



It certainly handicapped Willie as a BOXER.

Perhaps if he was leaner and stronger at his weight class he wouldnt have been bullyed by Saddler and had more pop to keep him off. Superlative skills obviously

[Unforgiven]

Yes great idea, make it a prerequisite of the sport to die of liver failure in your mid 40s :-(

That's probably a complete myth though.
I know powerlifters take probably the most liver toxic steroids in the biggest quantaties of any athletes, and for years too, and they compete in untested competitions. But they dont fall down dead of liver damage. And these guys are probably taking in it overkill doses. Also, pro bodybuilders, who get retired Mr.Olympia competitors, most of them are alive and well and many of them are actually kind of healthy. And these are extreme users.

[PowerPuncher]

That can work both ways PP...if you select the pictures that suit your argument.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] [Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links] [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Your pitching 2 of the most ripped pre-80s against 2 fat HWs thats hardly fair as I was comparing greats of each era

Harold Johnson had great conditioning and a low bodyfat, great genetics, must have had a conjusive diet to that, most back in the day fighters did not. I'll take your Harold Johnson and raise you
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

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Fighters werent on average this ripped back in the day, thats a fact, theres countless examples today of ripped fighters, pre 80s it was very rare to see a ripped fighter

[PowerPuncher]

That's probably a complete myth though.
I know powerlifters take probably the most liver toxic steroids in the biggest quantaties of any athletes, and for years too, and they compete in untested competitions. But they dont fall down dead of liver damage. And these guys are probably taking in it overkill doses. Also, pro bodybuilders, who get retired Mr.Olympia competitors, most of them are alive and well and many of them are actually kind of healthy. And these are extreme users.

I've a known a few who have passed on from liver failure and its a pretty sorry sight seeing a once strong man, weakened, lying on his death bed, skin completely yellow, tear dripping down his face seeing out his last few days.

No myth about it plenty of roiders have died from the stuff, just because you see 90yos smoking away like a chimney doesnt mean smoking doesnt kill

[Unforgiven]

I've a known a few who have passed on from liver failure and its a pretty sorry sight seeing a once strong man, weakened, lying on his death bed, skin completely yellow, tear dripping down his face seeing out his last few days.

No myth about it plenty of roiders have died from the stuff, just because you see 90yos smoking away like a chimney doesnt mean smoking doesnt kill

Yeah, but just because someone can kill themselves with excessive and stupid use of the stuff doesn't make it a "prerequisite of the sport".
Nor does it alter the fact that millions of people use the stuff and suffer no ill effects.

I'm no advocate of steroids, but I accept they are part of the world we live in. And other drugs, like HGH.

The point Ezzard made is that a vast number of top athletes for decades have been setting records with use of the drugs. And they will continue to do so, so the anti-doping set-up is a bit of a farce. Half the "clean" sports "heroes" are probably using. Perhaps more than that.

[lefthook31]

Didnt Lyle Alzado die from steroid affects?

Alot of these newer guys being so ripped also has to do with the increased knowledge of nutrition and dieting. Thats why we are seeing physically bigger stronger "lighter" guys as well.

[lefthook31]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Unforgiven]

Fighters werent on average this ripped back in the day, thats a fact, theres countless examples today of ripped fighters, pre 80s it was very rare to see a ripped fighter

That's simply not true. Many boxers of the lighter weight classes have always been ripped.

And individuals vary, so what you might find on a publicity boxer pose shot may not represent the ripped condition they came to fight in.

Here's Freddie Welsh in ripped condition :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Tiger Jack Fox :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Unforgiven]

Didnt Lyle Alzado die from steroid affects?

He died on a brain tumour, and he blamed the illness on steroids. His doctors thought it was completely unrelated though. Steroids are not known to cuase brain tumours.

That's the problem with any drug like "steroids" or anything else that the media latches on to as a "killer drug". Any time anyone dies or gets ill with anything and they were known to have used a "bad" or "killer" drug, or something labelled as such, the media claims as proof that the drug is a real killer.

[lefthook31]

He died on a brain tumour, and he blamed the illness on steroids. His doctors thought it was completely unrelated though. Steroids are not known to cuase brain tumours.

That's the problem with any drug like "steroids" or anything else that the media latches on to as a "killer drug". Any time anyone dies or gets ill with anything and they were known to have used a "bad" or "killer" drug, or something labelled as such, the media claims as proof that the drug is a real killer.
Wouldnt you agree nutritional supplements, dieting and training has increased quite a bit? I also think "on average" you are seeing more ripped guys than in the past.

[Unforgiven]

Wouldnt you agree nutritional supplements, dieting and training has increased quite a bit? I also think "on average" you are seeing more ripped guys than in the past.

The old-timers were solid professionals too, and many of them have the dieting down. They were on the high-protein, cutting out the carbs diets years ago, and measuring how much water they took in. They always had that down to a fine art. And the old-timers were ripped, devoid of excess body fat. Being "ripped" isn't a new thing, as ancient Greek statues should tell us.
I dont see how you and powerpuncher make the calculation that "on average" there are more ripped guys. How is that done ?

Yes, knowledge has improved, and the nutritional supplements and sports science can only make things better - if it's utilized fully. But it's wrong to think the old-timers didn't have the vast majority of that stuff sewn up too. Of course, every fighter and trainer is different, but the best examples then were very much in control of their training too, and experts at making weight to the precise ounce. That's nothing we should brush off.
I mean, it's not actually rocket science, and men in 1920 were not less clever or less professional than they are now.
Some of them did some foolish stuff out of ignorance, no doubt, but some of today's fighter just do foolishness without even that excuse.

[PowerPuncher]

That's simply not true. Many boxers of the lighter weight classes have always been ripped.

And individuals vary, so what you might find on a publicity boxer pose shot may not represent the ripped condition they came to fight in.

Here's Freddie Welsh in ripped condition :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Tiger Jack Fox :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I'm not saying there were no ripped fighters back in the day, but it was very rare, today its the norm to have 6pack abbs, in the past it was very unusual. There've been what 3 old timers who were ripped pointed out in the thread, they are simply few and far between

[PowerPuncher]

Being "ripped" isn't a new thing,

I dont see how you and powerpuncher make the calculation that "on average" there are more ripped guys. How is that done ?
#.

The vast amount of ripped fighters today, its the norm today, you have to look far and wide to find old timers who were ripped, it simly wasnt common

Most pre 70s ATGs were not ripped to shreds, most of todays are.

[Unforgiven]

I'm not saying there were no ripped fighters back in the day, but it was very rare, today its the norm to have 6pack abbs, in the past it was very unusual. There've been what 3 old timers who were ripped pointed out in the thread, they are simply few and far between

I'm not convinced of that at all.

It's harder to fight still photos of fighters in ripped condition to compare with all the glossy weigh-in pics you provide, as most of the pictures of old-timers are classic boxing pose publicity shots and were not taken when they were tip-top.
But on film many of the old-timers look just as ripped.

And it stands to reason that they would be, considering the way they trained and dieted was sufficient to get themselves ripped.

[Unforgiven]

Also, seeing as we know the 36-hour + time between weigh-in and fight has allowed them to dehydrate and lean out even more severely just for the weigh in, it's even less correct to compare modern weigh-in pics with old publicity shots.

[lefthook31]

The old-timers were solid professionals too, and many of them have the dieting down. They were on the high-protein, cutting out the carbs diets years ago, and measuring how much water they took in. They always had that down to a fine art. And the old-timers were ripped, devoid of excess body fat. Being "ripped" isn't a new thing, as ancient Greek statues should tell us.
I dont see how you and powerpuncher make the calculation that "on average" there are more ripped guys. How is that done ?

Yes, knowledge has improved, and the nutritional supplements and sports science can only make things better - if it's utilized fully. But it's wrong to think the old-timers didn't have the vast majority of that stuff sewn up too. Of course, every fighter and trainer is different, but the best examples then were very much in control of their training too, and experts at making weight to the precise ounce. That's nothing we should brush off.
I mean, it's not actually rocket science, and men in 1920 were not less clever or less professional than they are now.
Some of them did some foolish stuff out of ignorance, no doubt, but some of today's fighter just do foolishness without even that excuse.
Its not just about cutting carbs and dieting. There were no strength and conditioning coaches and supplements. These guys are taking supplements and protein shakes and various crap all day long during training camp, plus they are doing an entirely different training program in addition to their boxing.

[PowerPuncher]

I'm not convinced of that at all.

It's harder to fight still photos of fighters in ripped condition to compare with all the glossy weigh-in pics you provide, as most of the pictures of old-timers are classic boxing pose publicity shots and were not taken when they were tip-top.
But on film many of the old-timers look just as ripped.

And it stands to reason that they would be, considering the way they trained and dieted was sufficient to get themselves ripped.

Most old timers are a fleshy and not muscular, its pretty obvious, watch the fights, the arent in terrible condition by any means but they are nowhere near as ripped

I think you want to believe old timers were just as conditioned if not better, but the bottom line is its not true.

Dempsey looking soft/weak:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[PowerPuncher]

Also, seeing as we know the 36-hour + time between weigh-in and fight has allowed them to dehydrate and lean out even more severely just for the weigh in, it's even less correct to compare modern weigh-in pics with old publicity shots.

Most the fighters I've posted are in that condition 24/7/365 so your point is mute

[Unforgiven]

Its not just about cutting carbs and dieting. There were no strength and conditioning coaches and supplements. These guys are taking supplements and protein shakes and various crap all day long during training camp, plus they are doing an entirely different training program in addition to their boxing.

Well, the supplements industry has you believe that they need to be "taking supplements and protein shakes and various crap all day long", and maybe they are, but the actual impact it has overall will be minimal after a certain point.
But dont underestimate the power of the supplements industry in how the importance of such things is viewed.

(That's not to say I dont believe those things work. But it's not the be all and end all if some guy says he has this great training program and this great nutrition program. Sometimes we see guys talk like that and turn up for a fight, gas out of getting knocked out then they reverse the whole thing and blame the new regimen !
Frankly, I think more pinches of salt need to be taken with these stories of what's working for who in training.)

Did the old-timers fight 15-rounders at as fast a work-rate as modern fighters fight 12 now ?

Were they sufficiently trained to do that and sufficiently rested and nourished ?

Were they on point with making weight and in solid condition ?

Or are we imagining it ?

John L. Sullivan had William Muldoon brought in to get him into tip-top shape back in 1880-something, so I reject the notion that "strength and conditioning" coaches are wholly new.
The old-timers did all sorts of crazy strength and conditioning stuff unrelated to their specific ordinary boxing training to get into tip-top shape.

[Unforgiven]

Most old timers are a fleshy and not muscular, its pretty obvious, watch the fights, the arent in terrible condition by any means but they are nowhere near as ripped

I think you want to believe old timers were just as conditioned if not better, but the bottom line is its not true.

Dempsey looking soft/weak:
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:lol:

Stupid post.

[Unforgiven]

Most the fighters I've posted are in that condition 24/7/365 so your point is mute

How can they be when they're not even in that condition come fight time ? :huh

Why are you suddenly making ridiculous statements ?

You know a bit about the subject, so i dont get why you would come out with this crap.
Obviously, at fight time they've put on some weight, mostly water, that smooths out the appearance somwhat (hence why bodybuilders compete in the dehydrated state). So they're not even quite as ripped in the ring during the fight as they are in the weigh-in. Nevermind that they walk around several pounds heavier bewteen fights. Even if it's three or four pounds it's a difference in rippedness, as you well know.
So why make the ridiculous claim ?

[PowerPuncher]

How can they be when they're not even in that condition come fight time ? :huh

Why are you suddenly making ridiculous statements ?

You know a bit about the subject, so i dont get why you would come out with this crap.
Obviously, at fight time they've put on some weight, mostly water, that smooths out the appearance somwhat (hence why bodybuilders compete in the dehydrated state). So they're not even quite as ripped in the ring during the fight as they are in the weigh-in. Nevermind that they walk around several pounds heavier bewteen fights. Even if it's three or four pounds it's a difference in rippedness, as you well know.
So why make the ridiculous claim ?

You dont think Mayweather/Mosley/Jones/Pacquaio arent ripped all the time? They look pretty ripped in the ring to me and when they pose down at press conferences. Mayweather/Pacman dont currently weight drain, so all the 'water weight' theory doesnt apply to them

Anyway just because they boil down to lose water doesnt mean they dont have very low bodyfats anyway

You have your rose tinted glasses on, sports move forward, especially inthe physical aspects

[lefthook31]

Cmon PP those are ridiculous statements. Do you think ODLH was as ripped as he was at fight time? Nah.

[Stonehands89]

How can they be when they're not even in that condition come fight time ? :huh

Why are you suddenly making ridiculous statements ?

You know a bit about the subject, so i dont get why you would come out with this crap.
Obviously, at fight time they've put on some weight, mostly water, that smooths out the appearance somwhat (hence why bodybuilders compete in the dehydrated state). So they're not even quite as ripped in the ring during the fight as they are in the weigh-in. Nevermind that they walk around several pounds heavier bewteen fights. Even if it's three or four pounds it's a difference in rippedness, as you well know.
So why make the ridiculous claim ?
Unforgiven... You ain't seen nothing yet.

[PowerPuncher]

Cmon PP those are ridiculous statements. Do you think ODLH was as ripped as he was at fight time? Nah.

Did I pick DLH as 1 of todays ripped fighters? FMJ/Mosley/Pacman are always ripped, I fail to see the controversy :huh

[Unforgiven]

You dont think Mayweather/Mosley/Jones/Pacquaio arent ripped all the time? They look pretty ripped in the ring to me and when they pose down at press conferences. Mayweather/Pacman dont currently weight drain, so all the 'water weight' theory doesnt apply to them

Of course they might be in great condition all the time. But some of the guys you show will be heavier at fight time every time. The weigh in is them at their absolute most ripped and you compare them with any unflattering picture of an old-timer you can find.
That's what you did.
And I called you up on it.

Then you say they are like that 24/7/365 which just isn't true.

Anyway just because they boil down to lose water doesnt mean they dont have very low bodyfats anyway

Of course they have very low body fat. I'm just saying the way they look boiled down is even more ripped than what they are in the ring. And with old-school weigh-in time they wouldn't even be able to get there to show that condition and fight.

You have your rose tinted glasses on, sports move forward, especially inthe physical aspects

In many regards, yes.
But boxers have always being ripped.

[lefthook31]

Well, the supplements industry has you believe that they need to be "taking supplements and protein shakes and various crap all day long", and maybe they are, but the actual impact it has overall will be minimal after a certain point.
But dont underestimate the power of the supplements industry in how the importance of such things is viewed.

(That's not to say I dont believe those things work. But it's not the be all and end all if some guy says he has this great training program and this great nutrition program. Sometimes we see guys talk like that and turn up for a fight, gas out of getting knocked out then they reverse the whole thing and blame the new regimen !
Frankly, I think more pinches of salt need to be taken with these stories of what's working for who in training.)

Did the old-timers fight 15-rounders at as fast a work-rate as modern fighters fight 12 now ?

Were they sufficiently trained to do that and sufficiently rested and nourished ?

Were they on point with making weight and in solid condition ?

Or are we imagining it ?

John L. Sullivan had William Muldoon brought in to get him into tip-top shape back in 1880-something, so I reject the notion that "strength and conditioning" coaches are wholly new.
The old-timers did all sorts of crazy strength and conditioning stuff unrelated to their specific ordinary boxing training to get into tip-top shape.
I dont know too much about the whole industry but it seems every top boxer these days is using a coach for that very same reason. Who know Marciano could have been a super middleweight if he fought these days. :p
BTW you have to consider they fought with a lot more frequency.

[TheGreatA]

Most old timers are a fleshy and not muscular, its pretty obvious, watch the fights, the arent in terrible condition by any means but they are nowhere near as ripped

I think you want to believe old timers were just as conditioned if not better, but the bottom line is its not true.

Dempsey looking soft/weak:
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You're "hand-picking" pictures. Even Pep, Dempsey and Ross looked "lean" in their younger days while trained. Go to the antekprizering.com site. The fighters of the past were as "ripped" as today's fighters for the most part.

The average middleweight in the 1960's:

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Top lightweights Ike Williams and Beau Jack going at it:

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Ceferino Garcia:

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Not exactly Manny Pacquiao but a very strong, solid middleweight nonetheless and so were the rest of eras middleweights Fred Apostoli, Freddie Steele and Al Hostak for that matter.

Dempsey while trained:

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A boxer's physique.

[PowerPuncher]

Boxing is a character sport first and a skills sport second. Athleticism is high on the ladder as well, but not as high as the first two.

:lol: What a retard, I can't believe you have audacity coming back to thread with retardation like this, fuckwit

[lefthook31]

Did I pick DLH as 1 of todays ripped fighters? FMJ/Mosley/Pacman are always ripped, I fail to see the controversy :huh
Well your picking guys that already have favorable genetics for being ripped. A guy like ODLH who is pretty soft on his down time came into his fights far more ripped and he had a strength and conditioning coach too towards the end of his career. The guys you mentioned get more ripped than their already ripped bodies.

[TheGreatA]

You dont think Mayweather/Mosley/Jones/Pacquaio arent ripped all the time? They look pretty ripped in the ring to me and when they pose down at press conferences. Mayweather/Pacman dont currently weight drain, so all the 'water weight' theory doesnt apply to them

Anyway just because they boil down to lose water doesnt mean they dont have very low bodyfats anyway

You have your rose tinted glasses on, sports move forward, especially inthe physical aspects

I have no idea what this picture is but

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[lefthook31]

:lol: What a retard, I can't believe you have audacity coming back to thread with retardation like this, fuckwit

Why are you making statements like this? Boxing is absolutely a character sport. You can have all the atheltic talent in the world, if you dont have the proper mindset for the sport you'll fail miserably.

[PowerPuncher]

You're "hand-picking" pictures. Even Pep, Dempsey and Ross looked "lean" in their younger days while trained. Go to the antekprizering.com site. The fighters of the past were as "ripped" as today's fighters for the most part.

The average middleweight in the 1960's:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Top lightweights Ike Williams and Beau Jack going at it:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Ceferino Garcia:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Not exactly Manny Pacquiao but a very strong, solid middleweight nonetheless and so were the rest of eras middleweights Fred Apostoli, Freddie Steele and Al Hostak for that matter.

Dempsey while trained:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

A boxer's physique.

You picked some good examples there minus Garcia who I dont think is particularly great condition, good but not great. However nothing average about the conditioning of the top 4 fighters

And I havent seen Leonard/Ross looking in great condition, maybe somewhat better

According to Unforgiven these 3 arent ripped in the ring (check out the second pic, AWESOME)

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[PowerPuncher]

Why are you making statements like this? Boxing is absolutely a character sport. You can have all the atheltic talent in the world, if you dont have the proper mindset for the sport you'll fail miserably.

If skills and physical ability mean jack, Gatti was the greatest of all times :yep

[Unforgiven]

You picked some good examples there minus Garcia who I dont think is particularly great condition, good but not great. However nothing average about the conditioning of the top 4 fighters

And I havent seen Leonard/Ross looking in great condition, maybe somewhat better

According to Unforgiven these 3 arent ripped in the ring (check out the second pic, AWESOME)

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No, I never said anyone wasn't ripped.

In fact, I've been saying all along that boxers are ripped and have always been ripped.

[lefthook31]

If skills and physical ability mean jack, Gatti was the greatest of all times :yep
I dont think he meant it that way. Remember the old sang boxing is 90% mental 10% physical.

[Unforgiven]

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[TheGreatA]

You picked some good examples there minus Garcia who I dont think is particularly great condition, good but not great. However nothing average about the conditioning of the top 4 fighters

I'd say he is in fairly good condition:

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And I havent seen Leonard/Ross looking in great condition, maybe somewhat better

Unfortunately the antekprizering site is not working for me at the moment, but there are a couple of pictures of him in fighting condition. I'm not saying he was the Pacquiao of 1930's, but the picture you posted of him was slightly misleading, and it's not like he was looking out of shape there either.

[Unforgiven]

I'm impressed with Terrell's lack of body fat :

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And Ali's no slob either. And they're heavyweights.

Rubin Carter was quite lean too :

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[PowerPuncher]

Well your picking guys that already have favorable genetics for being ripped. A guy like ODLH who is pretty soft on his down time came into his fights far more ripped and he had a strength and conditioning coach too towards the end of his career. The guys you mentioned get more ripped than their already ripped bodies.

Oscar wasnt living the life towards the end of his career when he was balooning upto the 180s and I doubt he had a decent conditioning trainer anyway

Looked in better shape earlier in his career though

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[Unforgiven]

I have no idea what this picture is but

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Ok, but he's ripped 24/7/364 ....... you caught him on his off day. :lol:

[lefthook31]

LOL :lol:

[lefthook31]

Fighters like Ali looked a little softer towards the end of their careers. Maybe these supplements and programs have allowed fighters like Holyfield and Hopkins to stay much leaner and meaner in their advanced age?

[PowerPuncher]

I have no idea what this picture is but

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Hmm when was that first pic taken? Thats allot of bodyfat/conditioning/muscularity changes if anytime recently, PED use :huh

[TheGreatA]

I'd say Ross was in fairly decent condition:

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[PowerPuncher]

I'd say he is in fairly good condition:

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Unfortunately the antekprizering site is not working for me at the moment, but there are a couple of pictures of him in fighting condition. I'm not saying he was the Pacquiao of 1930's, but the picture you posted of him was slightly misleading, and it's not like he was looking out of shape there either.

Decent conditioning, he could achieve better conditioning today though

[TheGreatA]

Hmm when was that first pic taken? Thats allot of bodyfat/conditioning/muscularity changes if anytime recently, PED use :huh

It was taken in 2008. Pacquiao was portraying a "Lapu-Lapu" warrior or something.

[Jaws]

Pictures can tell two completely different stories when it comes to looking ripped...

Overhead lighting, post workout, etc, can make the same guy look like two different people on the same day. I can say this just from looking at myself.

[WhataRock]

Your pitching 2 of the most ripped pre-80s against 2 fat HWs thats hardly fair as I was comparing greats of each era

Harold Johnson had great conditioning and a low bodyfat, great genetics, must have had a conjusive diet to that, most back in the day fighters did not. I'll take your Harold Johnson and raise you
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Fighters werent on average this ripped back in the day, thats a fact, theres countless examples today of ripped fighters, pre 80s it was very rare to see a ripped fighter

I was only really taking the piss...but this could go on for a long time if you want and each time it does your ascertain that their were "hardly any" ripped old timers looks more and more off the mark.


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And so on and so on.

[Unforgiven]

Pictures can tell two completely different stories when it comes to looking ripped...

Overhead lighting, post workout, etc, can make the same guy look like two different people on the same day. I can say this just from looking at myself.

Very true. :good

[Ezzard]

1. No thats completely unsubstanciated, I personally know for a fact some medal winning athletes and 1 world record holder that havent done any gear. I've not known any true ATG athletes mind you. But the point is some do and some dont, is it possible many are, ofcourse, but no certainly not every athlete.

You also have to bare in mind some PEDs improve performance but some hinder, Dwain Chambers went backwards under Balco drugs. The strength to lift weights sprinters need to lift to gain optimal explosiviness are naturally attainable. I've known plenty of natural lifters throw around the kind of weights Ben Johnson was lifting

2. It indicates Lewis always had the potential to run those times and it was no aboration, he was near his peak as a teenager. Unless you believe he was roiding for years as a teen, which in turn would have stunted his growth, and hes tall, but dont let anyone of that affect your thinking

3. I'd put that down to Mayweather having poor social/verbal skills and lack of social confidence. Again why ask for random drug testing if you're doing drugs? The only reason Floyd put that in his contract is everyone was whispering in his ear

The whole thing is unsubstantiated (that's how they get away with it). This isn’t a court of law. It’s not even a PhD thesis. Sometimes you don’t actually need to prosecute someone to draw a conclusion. And your friendship with an athlete or not is also totally unsubstantiated. That’s not proof of anything. At the very best it’s proof that they told you they were clean and you believed them – that’s all. There’s a whole other can of worms that looks at what is and what isn’t legal, and what’s the difference, but that’s beyond the scope of this.

Look at the times of the track events. It’s simply not possible that guys who won a gold not so long ago would now struggle to make the finals. I’m sorry but I just don’t see how a clean athlete can come through a field of athletes who are on PEs? How exactly does that work?

Look at fighters who put on weight and move up and down the divisions. You simply cannot put in the training these guys do and put on 7 pounds of solid muscle – not without something extra.

Again the Lewis argument is pure faith from your part. He’s tall so he wasn’t on anything… Please…

As for Mayweather, and I don’t want to get stuck on the guy because (1) they all do it and (2) I agree that he’s not the sharpest knife in the drawer…but, whilst your Pollyanna thinking is touching, I think your naivety is doing you a disservice.

[Ezzard]

Yeah, but just because someone can kill themselves with excessive and stupid use of the stuff doesn't make it a "prerequisite of the sport".
Nor does it alter the fact that millions of people use the stuff and suffer no ill effects.

I'm no advocate of steroids, but I accept they are part of the world we live in. And other drugs, like HGH.

The point Ezzard made is that a vast number of top athletes for decades have been setting records with use of the drugs. And they will continue to do so, so the anti-doping set-up is a bit of a farce. Half the "clean" sports "heroes" are probably using. Perhaps more than that.

I don't like the drugs but what other option is there?

Anyone who sets a record is almost defintiely on something the previous record holder wasn't on.

Drug testing is a bit of a joke...and is often used by the authorities to help them wave a sword over the sport and its competitors.

You have to be a little bit political in your analysis. Athletes only discuss PEs when they have something to gain. Protesting about their use really ought to make you think.

[PowerPuncher]

The whole thing is unsubstantiated (that's how they get away with it). This isn’t a court of law. It’s not even a PhD thesis. Sometimes you don’t actually need to prosecute someone to draw a conclusion. And your friendship with an athlete or not is also totally unsubstantiated. That’s not proof of anything. At the very best it’s proof that they told you they were clean and you believed them – that’s all. There’s a whole other can of worms that looks at what is and what isn’t legal, and what’s the difference, but that’s beyond the scope of this.

Look at the times of the track events. It’s simply not possible that guys who won a gold not so long ago would now struggle to make the finals. I’m sorry but I just don’t see how a clean athlete can come through a field of athletes who are on PEs? How exactly does that work?

Look at fighters who put on weight and move up and down the divisions. You simply cannot put in the training these guys do and put on 7 pounds of solid muscle – not without something extra.

Again the Lewis argument is pure faith from your part. He’s tall so he wasn’t on anything… Please…

As for Mayweather, and I don’t want to get stuck on the guy because (1) they all do it and (2) I agree that he’s not the sharpest knife in the drawer…but, whilst your Pollyanna thinking is touching, I think your naivety is doing you a disservice.

I think you've just highlighted the fact you don't exercise. Putting on 7lbs of muscle is very easy while training if you know what you're doing

I've presented logical arguments and all you can do is gloss over the main points and retort with is 'these guys are in great shape and are improving the previous generation therefore they must be doing something'

You have no logic to your argument. Are PEDs a problem in sports, ofcourse, does everyone do them, no

We can agree for the mot part we can never prove without a 100% is someone is clean

[PowerPuncher]

I was only really taking the piss...but this could go on for a long time if you want and each time it does your ascertain that their were "hardly any" ripped old timers looks more and more off the mark.


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And so on and so on.

No as ripped as todays ighters are they and they'd be in better shape if they were around today.

Bottom line as with my initial ascertation, modern nutrition means lower bodyfat and higher muscularity is attainable

[Unforgiven]

No as ripped as todays ighters are they and they'd be in better shape if they were around today.

Bottom line as with my initial ascertation, modern nutrition means lower bodyfat and higher muscularity is attainable

I agree that the fighters in the pictures WhataRock provided are not as ripped as the pictures you provided.

But I thoroughly disagree with your assertion.

One of the most ripped fighter photos on the thread in the one I showed of Freddie Welsh (I wish I could find a bigger version of that pic), but that's not proof of anything much either.
Getting "ripped to shreds", attaining that low level of body fat, is nothing new.

[WhataRock]

No as ripped as todays ighters are they and they'd be in better shape if they were around today.

Bottom line as with my initial ascertation, modern nutrition means lower bodyfat and higher muscularity is attainable

What means "better shape" to you PP?

I see fighter after fighter struggling with relatively low paced 12 round fights a handful of times a year with months to prepare compared to these soft looking old fighters fighter multiple, draining 15 round fights in a single year.

Plenty of exceptions either way but I cant see this generalization that you seem adamant exists...from the muscle heads I used to see come into my gym up to ripped, cut up top flight fighters Ive seen plenty of examples of "fitter looking" fighters struggling with the pace and physicality of boxing.

[PowerPuncher]

Getting "ripped to shreds", attaining that low level of body fat, is nothing new.

More attainable for more today though. Think about all the tools available today - fat burners, nitric oxide, quickly digestable protein supplements, knowledge of insulin balance, knowledge of protein loading and thats without any PEDs. All make it easier to burnfat and build muscle

[Double Jay]

It doesn't improve technique or mentality or anything like that, so in that sense there would be no difference. I suppose it improves physical factors like stamina and speed, though.

Don't really see how you improve guys like Robinson in any kind of way, but perhaps it could be done. It is a mouth watering prospect to think so.

Yes it does.

With better drugs and nutrition you can training longer and better. And that does improve your technique.

And there are countless testimonies of people that used drugs saying that it did help them mentality as well. It has to do with confidence.

[PowerPuncher]

What means "better shape" to you PP?

I see fighter after fighter struggling with relatively low paced 12 round fights a handful of times a year with months to prepare compared to these soft looking old fighters fighter multiple, draining 15 round fights in a single year.

Plenty of exceptions either way but I cant see this generalization that you seem adamant exists...from the muscle heads I used to see come into my gym up to ripped, cut up top flight fighters Ive seen plenty of examples of "fitter looking" fighters struggling with the pace and physicality of boxing.

I was concentrating on the issue of bodyfat but ofcourse it isnt the most important quality in boxing

Stamina is another issue, are there fighters who fade down the stretch, ofcourse, always have been fighters fading down the stretch. Is that necessarily because of bad stamina, not always sometimes setting a high intensity will mean the fighter is going to pay for it down the stretch

Hers an incorrect assumption on this forum that going 15-20 rounds means you have more stamina, its not true. It like saying an average marathon runner has more stamina than Bekele because Bekele doesnt compete in the marathon

Do many old timers have better stamina than a Manny Pacquaio? I dont think so

[Double Jay]

Did the old-timers fight 15-rounders at as fast a work-rate as modern fighters fight 12 now ?

Let me stop you right there. No, they didn't fight with the same intensity as today's top fighters do. (I'm talking pre 70's fighters)

[WhataRock]

Let me stop you right there. No, they didn't fight with the same intensity as today's top fighters do. (I'm talking pre 70's fighters)

You are basing that on what?

[Unforgiven]

..........

[Double Jay]

You are basing that on what?

It is based on my sense of sight.

[enquirer]

Lean smean. Who gives a fuck about being ripped? Is this a bodybuilding or fitness contest?
Bottom line is,one of the modern guys with the most stamina,speed and ability not to get 'outmuscled' was good 'ole' joe calzaghe.
Its well documented that joe never touched weights,trained totally old school,and even when he went up to lt heavy just drained less rather than using supplements,peds and the like.
By PPs standard i dont think joe was 'ripped',yet he 'physically' was 100% better boxing wise than any of his weight training,suplement guzzling opponents like hopkins and jones...
And thats without getting into the majority of todays 'ripped' super stamina heavies!!!! Wheres the general evolution of ripped in the heavyweight division PP?!!!!!
Fucking useless bias from some of the posters on here...

[WhataRock]

I was concentrating on the issue of bodyfat but ofcourse it isnt the most important quality in boxing

Stamina is another issue, are there fighters who fade down the stretch, ofcourse, always have been fighters fading down the stretch. Is that necessarily because of bad stamina, not always sometimes setting a high intensity will mean the fighter is going to pay for it down the stretch

Hers an incorrect assumption on this forum that going 15-20 rounds means you have more stamina, its not true. It like saying an average marathon runner has more stamina than Bekele because Bekele doesnt compete in the marathon

Do many old timers have better stamina than a Manny Pacquaio? I dont think so


Im not making that assumption though...a lot of those fights were fought at a snail pace but a hell of a lot werent either..and guys had to do it far more often. But many of these so called soft looking fighters who lacked muscle definition are on film going hammer and tong for a full 15 rounds..then they go home have a rest and do it again in a months time.
And also anyone who has ever spent 2mins in a ring would understand the draining effect wrestling and jostling has on fighters, obviously that kind of stuff was more prevalent back in the day.
Thats also a pretty useless analogy ..again comparing boxing to other sports is really stretching because it has a lot of other factors involved in it. 9 more mins of taking punches to vital organs is a lot different to jogging a few more k's.
Having done both, long distance running and boxing (obviously at a novice level) they are not comparable.

Manny Pacquiao is a freak, almost no fighter has better stamina than he does today and very few would have in history...Im not talking about him but about the other elite fighters who clearly struggle to fight at even a moderate pace even when they have months to prepare.

[WhataRock]

It is based on my sense of sight.

I need help with that...my sense of sight is a bit busted.

Please show me enough examples to support your generalized argument...and by that I dont mean 2 mins of grainy film you saw on youtube.

I mean full fights...then we can compare them to modern day examples.

[Unforgiven]

Lean smean. Who gives a fuck about being ripped? Is this a bodybuilding or fitness contest?
Bottom line is,one of the modern guys with the most stamina,speed and ability not to get 'outmuscled' was good 'ole' joe calzaghe.
Its well documented that joe never touched weights,trained totally old school,and even when he went up to lt heavy just drained less rather than using supplements,peds and the like.
By PPs standard i dont think joe was 'ripped',yet he 'physically' was 100% better boxing wise than any of his weight training,suplement guzzling opponents like hopkins and jones...
And thats without getting into the majority of todays 'ripped' super stamina heavies!!!! Wheres the general evolution of ripped in the heavyweight division PP?!!!!!
Fucking useless bias from some of the posters on here...

Good post. :good

[lefthook31]

I dont think your assessment of Hopkins is very fair enquirer considering his age. Hes also a very healthy man that stays in shape year round, but I agree Calzahge carried himself the same way. These guys preserve their bodies work out year round and stay away from partying and drugs. I believe alot of the old timers were the same, but more because they were fighting two three times a month.
The fighters of today want to fight every six months and balloon up and party between fights. The use of drugs and intensive strength and conditioning programs probably helps cover up their slack. Its basically a cover up for their laziness.

[PowerPuncher]

Lean smean. Who gives a fuck about being ripped? Is this a bodybuilding or fitness contest?
Bottom line is,one of the modern guys with the most stamina,speed and ability not to get 'outmuscled' was good 'ole' joe calzaghe.
Its well documented that joe never touched weights,trained totally old school,and even when he went up to lt heavy just drained less rather than using supplements,peds and the like.
By PPs standard i dont think joe was 'ripped',yet he 'physically' was 100% better boxing wise than any of his weight training,suplement guzzling opponents like hopkins and jones...
And thats without getting into the majority of todays 'ripped' super stamina heavies!!!! Wheres the general evolution of ripped in the heavyweight division PP?!!!!!
Fucking useless bias from some of the posters on here...

If you'd followed the thread cretin you would see I initially claimed better nutrition/supplements/training leads to various improvements in performance, not just lower bodyfat. Someone called me when I claimed more modern fighters were ripped and hence I proved my point. Ofcourse there are far more issues in boxing

Don't call me biased because you haven't got the intelligence to follow a conversation, fuckwit

The evolution in the HWs is visable in them being bigger, stronger and more durable

[Unforgiven]

Someone called me when I claimed more modern fighters were ripped and hence I proved my point.

No, you never actually got past the assertion stage. Nothing was proved either way.
Not that it matters.
I think there were just as many ripped fighters back in the day as there are now, you think otherwise. Neither of us proved shit.

I do not disagree with you on the point that the supplements etc. make it easier (or simpler) though. But that could just suggest that the old-timers worked a bit harder, or with more trial and error, to achieve the same results.

[PowerPuncher]

Im not making that assumption though...a lot of those fights were fought at a snail pace but a hell of a lot werent either..and guys had to do it far more often. But many of these so called soft looking fighters who lacked muscle definition are on film going hammer and tong for a full 15 rounds..then they go home have a rest and do it again in a months time.
And also anyone who has ever spent 2mins in a ring would understand the draining effect wrestling and jostling has on fighters, obviously that kind of stuff was more prevalent back in the day.
Thats also a pretty useless analogy ..again comparing boxing to other sports is really stretching because it has a lot of other factors involved in it. 9 more mins of taking punches to vital organs is a lot different to jogging a few more k's.
Having done both, long distance running and boxing (obviously at a novice level) they are not comparable.

Manny Pacquiao is a freak, almost no fighter has better stamina than he does today and very few would have in history...Im not talking about him but about the other elite fighters who clearly struggle to fight at even a moderate pace even when they have months to prepare.

The thing about old timers is they'd find tactics to conserve energy. Whether it was taking a round off, never pushing their body to a stage where they are too breathless, starting slower, resting in the clinches. Also when your opponent is tiring and pacing himself it lowers the pace for you

Another things to bare in mind is allot of the fighters we see are highlights, it misrepresents the pace of the fight. Also many didnt fight that many 15rounders, someone brought up the fact Tunney for 1 only went 15rounds about 4 times

[PowerPuncher]

No, you never actually got past the assertion stage. Nothing was proved either way.
Not that it matters.
I think there were just as many ripped fighters back in the day as there are now, you think otherwise. Neither of us proved shit.

I do not disagree with you on the point that the supplements etc. make it easier (or simpler) though. But that could just suggest that the old-timers worked a bit harder, or with more trial and error, to achieve the same results.

If it was a court of law I would get the verdict, I'm picking fighters more ripped than the 1s you picked from the past 2 years, your picking fighters over a 70year period and find a handful.

You just agreed with a fuckwit post, which I think is the second time you've done that on this thread, it doesnt strengthen your case, it makes you look dumb

[lefthook31]

I do not disagree with you on the point that the supplements etc. make it easier (or simpler) though. But that could just suggest that the old-timers worked a bit harder, or with more trial and error, to achieve the same results.

I think this as well, but I also think these new techniques help older fighters the most, and thats why were seeing more compete later into their careers at the elite level.

[Unforgiven]

enquirer is right to point out that some of the best modern fighters train in an almost completely "old school" manner.

Also, people are saying the old-school is "pre-70s" or "pre-80s" but the open-mindedness in training and any steps towards a "modern" sports-science approach to training came in the late 1980s, and that was among a minority.
As for nutritional supplements that might actually work well, we are talking mid-to-late 90s.

I mean, Hearns and Leonard were "old school" in 1981. A prime Tyson was "old school". Marvin Hagler was "old school", very much so. And even some of the best around today are more "old school" than not.

Obviously, the DRUGS are a different matter though. Boxers have been taking injections and drugs for the larger part of the last 100 years.

[enquirer]

PP,i have followed the entire thread. Its obvious that you are a boy that has to resort to ad homineum And asserting UNPROVEN statements.
You aint proved shit,and like i said you just make excuses like 'oh the highlights' dont show the whole story'.
Well,how would do YOU know the highlights dont show the whole story if you werent there to see the original??????? If you cant answer that,it shows your biased,which what i said originally.
ps; if we were in court,youd be up for contempt, and the judge would probably tell you to shut up and listen to the 'EVIDENCE'...

[Unforgiven]

If it was a court of law I would get the verdict, I'm picking fighters more ripped than the 1s you picked from the past 2 years, your picking fighters over a 70year period and find a handful.

If it was a court of law you'd be doing your time for crimes against common sense a long time ago.


You just agreed with a fuckwit post, which I think is the second time you've done that on this thread, it doesnt strengthen your case, it makes you look dumb

Yes, but to my credit, I've disagree with several fuckwit posts on this thread.
Posts which you yourself are responsible for.

[lefthook31]

enquirer is right to point out that some of the best modern fighters train in an almost completely "old school" manner.

Also, people are saying the old-school is "pre-70s" or "pre-80s" but the open-mindedness in training and any steps towards a "modern" sports-science approach to training came in the late 1980s, and that was among a minority.
As for nutritional supplements that might actually work well, we are talking mid-to-late 90s.

I mean, Hearns and Leonard were "old school" in 1981. A prime Tyson was "old school". Marvin Hagler was "old school", very much so. And even some of the best around today are more "old school" than not.

Obviously, the DRUGS are a different matter though. Boxers have been taking injections and drugs for the larger part of the last 100 years.
I think you would be suprised of how many of the best modern fighters do in fact use strength and conditioning coaches now. There was a video I was looking for on youtube interviewing Freddie Roach, and he pretty much talks about the whole issue and how he wasnt a believer at first and now he advises all his fighters to get on a program along with their boxing training.

[enquirer]

Leftthook,Dont get me wrong,some types of guys can benefit enormously from modern techniques,coaches,supplements et al. What i am saying is that it all depends on the INDIVIDUAL. It depends on what works for the individual.
If modern training helps a guy to get stronger,fight for longer,make weight easier then thats great. If old school training benefits a guy better,then thats cool as well. I know shane mosley semmed to be better before he started with weights and supplements,and i cant think of many modern guys that got better because of a conditioning coach. (with the exception of holyfield.)
What annoys me,is those either saying old school absolutely is best,or new school is absolutely better,thats just biased crap. Whatever works best for the said fighter is best...

[lefthook31]

Leftthook,Dont get me wrong,some types of guys can benefit enormously from modern techniques,coaches,supplements et al. What i am saying is that it all depends on the INDIVIDUAL. It depends on what works for the individual.
If modern training helps a guy to get stronger,fight for longer,make weight easier then thats great. If old school training benefits a guy better,then thats cool as well. I know shane mosley semmed to be better before he started with weights and supplements,and i cant think of many modern guys that got better because of a conditioning coach. (with the exception of holyfield.)
What annoys me,is those either saying old school absolutely is best,or new school is absolutely better,thats just biased crap. Whatever works best for the said fighter is best...
I agree with that as well and I think a good balance of both is whats really helping some of these fighters and why a lot of the top trainers are now buying into the whole strength and conditioning programs.

[Unforgiven]

I think you would be suprised of how many of the best modern fighters do in fact use strength and conditioning coaches now. There was a video I was looking for on youtube interviewing Freddie Roach, and he pretty much talks about the whole issue and how he wasnt a believer at first and now he advises all his fighters to get on a program along with their boxing training.

Yes, but a "strength and conditioning coach" is not a magician or wizard. He's just paid to do his job, a job that needs to be done. Some are worth their pay more than others, no doubt.
Lennox Lewis's conditioning coach was his friend from school.
Of course a seperate conditioning coach is a good thing, especially from the point of view of someone like Roach.
But there's always been something like that, with assistant trainers etc.

Let's be honest, did Mike Tyson in his prime need someone other than Kevin Rooney to get him into great condition ? I dont think so.
Of course, Tyson was genetically gifted, and for some others the input of more than one professional will be beneficial. But it really is not rocket science.
The vast majority of these strength and conditioning coaches aren't doing anything amazing, they are just doing the same old job that's always been done. Some are true experts who can work wonders, and others are complete disasters ......... and the majority are just what we used to call "trainers". :D

[lefthook31]

Yes Im specifically talking about alex ariza who Roach uses. He is very educated in his field, went to college specifically for sports medicine.

I think the same can be said for a lot of boxing trainers these days as far as them being piss poor.


No Mike Tyson is a perfect example of a fighter who went the wrong direction. More into weights and strength and conditioning than boxing, and thats why his timing never really returned.

[enquirer]

Exactly,thats one of my theories of why mike went down hill,he didnt need weights and conditioning,the boy just needed to train to lose weight and sharpen himself up.
Tyson was better when he trained old school,holyfield the opposite...

[PowerPuncher]

enquirer is right to point out that some of the best modern fighters train in an almost completely "old school" manner.

Also, people are saying the old-school is "pre-70s" or "pre-80s" but the open-mindedness in training and any steps towards a "modern" sports-science approach to training came in the late 1980s, and that was among a minority.
As for nutritional supplements that might actually work well, we are talking mid-to-late 90s.

I mean, Hearns and Leonard were "old school" in 1981. A prime Tyson was "old school". Marvin Hagler was "old school", very much so. And even some of the best around today are more "old school" than not.

Obviously, the DRUGS are a different matter though. Boxers have been taking injections and drugs for the larger part of the last 100 years.

When did I say old school training was bad? I didnt, I said modern nutrition and some modern training science adds to the performance, which both do.

Is it a coincidence all of the fastest hands of all time are exclusive to the last 30 years?

BTW old school training is a bit of a generalistion, lots of people train differently, always have

[PowerPuncher]

PP,i have followed the entire thread. Its obvious that you are a boy that has to resort to ad homineum And asserting UNPROVEN statements.
You aint proved shit,and like i said you just make excuses like 'oh the highlights' dont show the whole story'.
Well,how would do YOU know the highlights dont show the whole story if you werent there to see the original??????? If you cant answer that,it shows your biased,which what i said originally.
ps; if we were in court,youd be up for contempt, and the judge would probably tell you to shut up and listen to the 'EVIDENCE'...

If you have then that proves you can't follow the logic of a basic conversation, you must have the lowest IQ of anyone on this board and thats saying allot. Immediately take your ADD medication before you forget to breath

And what part of the word highlights don't you not understand? The clue is in the word, what a fuckwit :lol:

[PowerPuncher]

No Mike Tyson is a perfect example of a fighter who went the wrong direction. More into weights and strength and conditioning than boxing, and thats why his timing never really returned.

Tyson is an example of a fighter who lost his hunger, had his life go off the rails, indulged in coke/weed/women/partying instead of training, became innactive for 4years and everyone was shocked with the consequencial ring results

[PowerPuncher]

1. If it was a court of law you'd be doing your time for crimes against common sense a long time ago

2. Yes, but to my credit, I've disagree with several fuckwit posts on this thread.
Posts which you yourself are responsible for.

1. Yet you can't answer many of my key points and ignore the basic fact that I cn find ore fighters ripped in the last 8years than you can find in the pre 70s - if there is a bias on this thread thats it

2. So you admit you stooping to the level of purposely agreeing with nonsensical posts to strengten your case, pretty low

I'll leave the thread now as no one here has a clue about training or nutrition anyway

[Unforgiven]

When did I say old school training was bad? I didnt, I said modern nutrition and some modern training science adds to the performance, which both do.

I wasn't addressing that part to you in particular.
I'm pointing out that people refering to "pre-70s" and "pre-80s" (it may have been you, and others, I cant remember) seems to assume that the modern nutrition and modern training science came along in the 70s or 80s.
I say it came later anyway.

Is it a coincidence all of the fastest hands of all time are exclusive to the last 30 years?

Is it even true ?

Hand speed is very largely genetic.



BTW old school training is a bit of a generalistion, lots of people train differently, always have

I absolutely agree.
But I'm purposely using "old school training" as a very broad generalisation, basically everything and anything excluding what is new to the last 25 years.

[Unforgiven]

1. Yet you can't answer many of my key points and ignore the basic fact that I cn find ore fighters ripped in the last 8years than you can find in the pre 70s - if there is a bias on this thread thats it

I haven't been keeping score of who's produced the most photos of ripped fighters. :lol:
I've got better things to do than try to convince you of something you'll never accept. And you probably have the same view towards me.

Again, you state "pre 70s" but none of that nutritional supplementation, increase in weight training or "scientific" outlook came to the fore in boxing training during the 1970s, so I'm puzzled as to why that's your cut-off.



2. So you admit you stooping to the level of purposely agreeing with nonsensical posts to strengten your case, pretty low


No. I dont even see myself as having a "case". I have an opinion, which I would happily change if there was any compelling evidence.


I'll leave the thread now as no one here has a clue about training or nutrition anyway


In other words, you know a lot less than you thought you knew but want to save face. :good

[enquirer]

PP,its quite ironic that you say i cant follow logic ( and thats not a word i would use to describe most of your posts.) ,yet mostly NOBODY agress with 90% of what you post. Is it that nearly everybody doesnt follow your so called 'logic'?
I notice you also like to call names when you are upset or someone calls BS,thats a sign of a poor intellect.
Your very predictable,in almost every thread we know what your are going to say,and how you are going to say it.
In boxing terms you are one dimensional,a veritable sven ottke....

[PowerPuncher]

haven't been keeping score of who's produced the most photos of ripped fighters. :lol:
I've got better things to do than try to convince you of something you'll never accept. And you probably have the same view towards me.

Again, you state "pre 70s" but none of that nutritional supplementation, increase in weight training or "scientific" outlook came to the fore in boxing training during the 1970s, so I'm puzzled as to why that's your cut-off.

No. I dont even see myself as having a "case". I have an opinion, which I would happily change if there was any compelling evidence.

In other words, you know a lot less than you thought you knew but want to save face. :good

Ahh trying to claim another low move. Umm you havent brought a single point to the table, do you seriously think you'd be able to say something I dont have an answer for?

Your opinion is based on rose tinted glasses and your not really going to change it, the point of the matter is modern fighters typically have less bodyfat on average. Hence I was giving up on the convo as you'll never agree no matter what proof I bring

[Unforgiven]

Ahh trying to claim another low move. Umm you havent brought a single point to the table, do you seriously think you'd be able to say something I dont have an answer for?


No. I'm actually looking for answers.

Why do you say "pre-70s" when none of the modern nutritional supplements and other advances came to the fore until much later ?


Your opinion is based on rose tinted glasses and your not really going to change it, the point of the matter is modern fighters typically have less bodyfat on average. Hence I was giving up on the convo as you'll never agree no matter what proof I bring


You've brought no proof.

But if you're leaving, take this photo of Kelly Pavlik with you :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[PowerPuncher]

PP,its quite ironic that you say i cant follow logic ( and thats not a word i would use to describe most of your posts.) ,yet mostly NOBODY agress with 90% of what you post. Is it that nearly everybody doesnt follow your so called 'logic'?
I notice you also like to call names when you are upset or someone calls BS,thats a sign of a poor intellect.
Your very predictable,in almost every thread we know what your are going to say,and how you are going to say it.
In boxing terms you are one dimensional,a veritable sven ottke....

Did you look up the definition of highlight yet retard :lol:

You're very aware that you can't respond directly to the points I made because you've been well and truly owned.

Let me recap for you Captain ADD. We were having a conversation about the average bodyfat level in boxers of different eras, I wasnt saying it was the most important part of boxing by any means, but we were debating it. You come on with your irrelevance that its not the most important thing in boxing, no shit sherlock. Aren't you tired of embarrassing yourself?

BTW people disagree with me on here because I rip their fave fighters to shreds and make them :| You act like people on the Classic actually know their boxing, they generally dont and few know the basics on how to actually box

I'm suprised you figured out how to turn on the computer though, well done, or did someone do that for you?

[PowerPuncher]

No. I'm actually looking for answers.

Why do you say "pre-70s" when none of the modern nutritional supplements and other advances came to the fore until much later

Because you'd prob bring up fighters Norton/Shavers who I suspect may have been roiding. Weight training became more prevailant in the 70s

And whoever sad roids had been aroud for 70years, whether that true or not, boxers havent been using them that long

[enquirer]

Yawn.....
Anybody would think we are in the prescence of the late eddie futch...
Instead,its probably some unemployed 20 year old who majored in table tennis....
Internet geniuses,wasted on riff raff like us...:lol:

[lefthook31]

Yawn.....
Anybody would think we are in the prescence of the late eddie futch...
Instead,its probably some unemployed 20 year old who majored in table tennis....
Internet geniuses,wasted on riff raff like us...:lol:
:yep

[PowerPuncher]

Is it even true ?

Hand speed is very largely genetic.

I think the top tier of speedsters would have to be Jones, Camacho, Leonard. Then Meldrick Taylor, Terry Norris, Hearns and maybe Pacman/Mayweather. Patterson/Ali/Robinson have calls from the pre 80s crowdto be in that secondary tier

[PowerPuncher]

Thought you'd give up enquirer, its for the best ;)

[Unforgiven]

Because you'd prob bring up fighters Norton/Shavers who I suspect may have been roiding. Weight training became more prevailant in the 70s

In boxing, weight training was well out of fashion until the late 80s/early 90s.
Most trainers were dead against it, and the fighters who lifted did it rarely or with light resistance usually.
In 1988 Holyfield was viewed as a curiosity for his weight-training program.

Shavers wasn't even ripped, so I wouldn't bring him up.
Anyone could be roiding though. (But steroids and being ripped aren't that closely linked. Although roid use can help preserve muscle while hard dieting, of course)

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Hagler was ripped. Yes, he might have been on roids. But so might anyone.
We know Hagler was definitely not using supplements or even lifting weights. He did all the old-fashioned stuff and nothing else. I think he stopped running in his army boots for his last few fights, so he wasn't a complete dinosaur in his methods. :lol:

And whoever sad roids had been aroud for 70years, whether that true or not, boxers havent been using them that long

Some boxers may have been using in the 50s and 60s though. And as I said before, boxers were taking shots and pills whatever their doctors gave them for decades. Ali was notorious for taking shots and pills. And stimulants and painkillers have been commonplace in boxing going back 100 years or more. With that sort of culture around some champions and their trainers, I daresay testosterone shots came into some camps very early indeed.

[enquirer]

Give up??!!!!
I just went off to get my protein bar.....:D

[Unforgiven]

I think the top tier of speedsters would have to be Jones, Camacho, Leonard. Then Meldrick Taylor, Terry Norris, Hearns and maybe Pacman/Mayweather. Patterson/Ali/Robinson have calls from the pre 80s crowdto be in that secondary tier

I dont know. There have been too many fighters to remember.

But I do think that every one of those fast fighters was fast because of their genetics.
I bet most of them were faster when they were starting out as kids too.

[enquirer]

Did any of them get faster AFTER taking up weights,supplements,etc?

[Unforgiven]

Did any of them get faster AFTER taking up weights,supplements,etc?

I doubt it.
They were probably unbelievable speed demons when they were kids.

Speed is the most genetically determined and limited quality in any athletic activity.

They are "born fast".
As far as I know, the entire training science community agrees on this.

[john garfield]

I'm ol' school -- don't know dick about roids, PEDs, growth hormones -- you name it. In simple English, will any of these things make a fighter punch harder, take a shot better or react quicker?

[enquirer]

If we look at some of the guys like jones,spinks,hopkins,mosley,de la hoya who used supplements and weight training LATER on in their careers,i think its plain to see that it definately enabled them to compete at higher weights without getting fat.
But,i would say only holyfield really got better as a boxer as a result of all these hi tech methods.
I fail to see how hagler,leonard,greb,robinson,ali,duran and such like would have got better through new training methods. Those guys had the genetics,skills AND most importantly as stonehands mentioned,the MENTALITY to be great boxers. To be an atg MENTALITY is the first requirement.
I mean you can feed a footballer all the best steroids,supplements,weights,boxing skills et al,but his mentality is what is going to make him good,not the training protocol per se.
Finally,i dont see how you can beat regular quality fighting as a way of becoming great,thats why some of the old timers like greb,robinson etc where MILES ahead of the modern lot.

[Pachilles]

I'm ol' school -- don't know dick about roids, PEDs, growth hormones -- you name it. In simple English, will any of these things make a fighter punch harder, take a shot better or react quicker?

yes they do all those things and more

[enquirer]

They can,but they dont always,it depends on the individual.
But still,dont worry john garfield,even with all these drugs and technology not one modern guy comes close to robinson,greb,etc....
Its a question of mentality.

[Unforgiven]

I'm ol' school -- don't know dick about roids, PEDs, growth hormones -- you name it. In simple English, will any of these things make a fighter punch harder, take a shot better or react quicker?

Well, it's impossible to know what potions and pills the fighters might be taking. Since most of the stuff is banned, the latest stuff is always secret. But, I'd say ....

Punch harder ..... yes, there are definitely drugs that will likely add something extra to the punch of a fighter. Those drugs would benefit the vast majority of those who try them.

take a shot better ...... I doubt there's anything that will make much difference.

react quicker .... .. well, some drugs can heighten awareness and focus concentration. Whether this would necessarily help an already-great fighter is doubtful. Also, such drugs would likely have side-effects, they'd be "mind fucks", for want of a better expression.

[john garfield]

Well, it's impossible to know what potions and pills the fighters might be taking. Since most of the stuff is banned, the latest stuff is always secret. But, I'd say ....

Punch harder ..... yes, there are definitely drugs that will likely add something extra to the punch of a fighter. Those drugs would benefit the vast majority of those who try them.

take a shot better ...... I doubt there's anything that will make much difference.

react quicker .... .. well, some drugs can heighten awareness and focus concentration. Whether this would necessarily help an already-great fighter is doubtful. Also, such drugs would likely have side-effects, they'd be "mind fucks", for want of a better expression.

Thanks for takin' the pains, U. Would you elaborate on how something would make a fighter punch harder?

[Ezzard]

I think you've just highlighted the fact you don't exercise. Putting on 7lbs of muscle is very easy while training if you know what you're doing

I've presented logical arguments and all you can do is gloss over the main points and retort with is 'these guys are in great shape and are improving the previous generation therefore they must be doing something'

You have no logic to your argument. Are PEDs a problem in sports, ofcourse, does everyone do them, no

We can agree for the mot part we can never prove without a 100% is someone is clean

No, you've presented nothing that is even close to logic. Just some biased observations that fit your world view, and then as you've lurched around blindly from point to point you've tried to put these opinions up as facts and then use the word logic like you know what it means.

Go to any gym and talk to the body builders. Guys who only want to put on muscle - nothing else. These guys don't go near cardio and they struggle to put on 7 lbs by basically eating, sleeping and lifting...

I exercise extensively and have the ear of a number of professional trainers and sportsmen. So what does that prove? That you've made another stab in the dark and missed.

[Ezzard]

I think the top tier of speedsters would have to be Jones, Camacho, Leonard. Then Meldrick Taylor, Terry Norris, Hearns and maybe Pacman/Mayweather. Patterson/Ali/Robinson have calls from the pre 80s crowdto be in that secondary tier

See this bothers me...

These speed demons are all from the past 30 years. If these athletes aren't on something then how is that possible?

You've got to accept that if people are getting faster it has to be for artificial reasons. There is no other possible conclusion.

[Unforgiven]

Thanks for takin' the pains, U. Would you elaborate on how something would make a fighter punch harder?

As I understand it, certain drugs conduce the muscles and tendons to grow stronger (through training) than they would in the same circumstances minus the drugs.

The stronger muscles contract with greater force, which combined with the fighter's natural aptitude for punching, his technique and his speed, will result in GREATER PUNCHING POWER.

[PowerPuncher]

I doubt it.
They were probably unbelievable speed demons when they were kids.

Speed is the most genetically determined and limited quality in any athletic activity.

They are "born fast".
As far as I know, the entire training science community agrees on this.

Not quite, you can train speed like anything else, otherwise world class sprinters simply wouldnt train.

Genetically the body has white muscle fibre and red muscle fibre. The white muscle fibre is best suited to explosive exercise, ie speed, red muscle fibre for slower endurance exercise.

Certain genetic testing has showed people of West African descent tend to have on average a much higher percentage of white muscle fibre, hence yes speed demons tend to be black. The people with the highest average percentage of red muscle fibre were of East Afrcian descent

However that doesnt mean someone who isn't cant be fast. 1 of the greatest female sprinters of all time was Merlene Ottey and she had a relatively low percentage of white muscle fibre, which was measure at 60% white fibre if I remember rightly (it could be lower).

How could this be possible? Well you can train red muscle fibre to act/switch to behave like white muscle fibre through apropriate training. Training and improving on certain explosive exercises will improve speed and power. Obviously there are genetic limits

[lefthook31]

take a shot better ...... I doubt there's anything that will make much difference.




Ask a cop next time you run into one how hard it is to take down someone on PCP. I definitely think PED's can affect your ability to take a punch.

[Bokaj]

I think modern training has had about the same effect in boxing as it has had in football (European that is). In both sports athleticism is only a part of the total package, together with technique, tactical thinking and mental fortitude.

Football players have in general become faster and stronger over the last decades, and the game has developed accordingly, but there are still top players that doesn't rely on athletic attributes. And the ATGs of the past (Di Stefano, Pele and Maradona etc) would without a doubt still be top players if transported to the present.

[Bokaj]

I'm not terribly educated on this, but my understanding is that it's no real use taking steroids if you're not weight lifting. In that case it would be strange if steroids have been in use for more than half a decade in boxing while weight lifting only really came along in the sport some 20 years ago.

[ricardoparker93]

That can work both ways PP...if you select the pictures that suit your argument.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] [Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links] [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Jesus Toney is one fat bastard. That being said I think certain types of modern training aid explosiveness, single shot power and speed. But with the lack of emphasis on technique and in the ring work stamina can suffer.

Looking at the fastest boxers of all time the majority are from the last 25 years. The number of Top 50 ATG's in that timespan?? Not so good..

[prime]

I think modern training has had about the same effect in boxing as it has had in football (European that is). In both sports athleticism is only a part of the total package, together with technique, tactical thinking and mental fortitude.

Football players have in general become faster and stronger over the last decades, and the game has developed accordingly, but there are still top players that doesn't rely on athletic attributes. And the ATGs of the past (Di Stefano, Pele and Maradona etc) would without a doubt still be top players if transported to the present.

Times are not better or worse. Circumstances change; the essential never does. And every modern convenience deprives us of the benefits of struggle.

Knowledge advances in nutrition and training methods exist, and should be welcomed. It's called civilization, progress. A 4.5-generation jet fighter today would and should not be designed based on Top-Gun-era technology.

Thus, in no small part due to marketability based on a perfect record, the disappearance of the 15-round limit, and the examples of fast, powerpunching greats from Ali to Tyson to Thomas Hearns, boxers today fight less and focus on explosive, Dolby-thudding power, rather than the old-school emphasis on cardio conditioning for the long haul.

Outside of PED's, which, no matter how sliced, is nothing but cheating,
this new emphasis is simply different..and fine. Can weight training improve punching power? Evidently, empirically, yes. Can it turn a Corbett into a Shavers? No, but I think it's denial to ignore all the recent bulked, hard hitters in the Buddy-Baer Richter category around today.

Were Langford, Dempsey, Louis and Armstrong around today, human nature being what it is, I strongly doubt their embracing modern preparation, but I also strongly doubt they would need it to compete per their credentials.

When I envision fantasy bouts, I see the contract signed about a year before rumble hour, thus allowing the old-time fighter time to acclimate and choose his preparation methods. Again, outside of a few modern tweaks -protein shakes, Dempsey using the treadmill late night watching ESPN- the old-timer would probably resort to bare-bones climbing of solitary peaks, once on top, perhaps hollering, fists aloft, "PAC-EE-AH-OHH!", or "VIT-AH-LEE!"

This version of Dempsey would probably be a nick better in every physical department than the Toledo incarnation, but, then again, this small evening of the playing field is negligible compared to the champion's heart and mentality that the Mauler would bring to the table against Wlad today: those of an overcomer from a time when fighting was more akin to a life-and-death existence, not merely sport.

[john garfield]

Times are not better or worse. Circumstances change; the essential never does. And every modern convenience deprives us of the benefits of struggle.

Knowledge advances in nutrition and training methods exist, and should be welcomed. It's called civilization, progress. A 4.5-generation jet fighter today would and should not be designed based on Top-Gun-era technology.

Thus, in no small part due to marketability based on a perfect record, the disappearance of the 15-round limit, and the examples of fast, powerpunching greats from Ali to Tyson to Thomas Hearns, boxers today fight less and focus on explosive, Dolby-thudding power, rather than the old-school emphasis on cardio conditioning for the long haul.

Outside of PED's, which, no matter how sliced, is nothing but cheating,
this new emphasis is simply different..and fine. Can weight training improve punching power? Evidently, empirically, yes. Can it turn a Corbett into a Shavers? No, but I think it's denial to ignore all the recent bulked, hard hitters in the Buddy-Baer Richter category around today.

Were Langford, Dempsey, Louis and Armstrong around today, human nature being what it is, I strongly doubt their embracing modern preparation, but I also strongly doubt they would need it to compete per their credentials.

When I envision fantasy bouts, I see the contract signed about a year before rumble hour, thus allowing the old-time fighter time to acclimate and choose his preparation methods. Again, outside of a few modern tweaks -protein shakes, Dempsey using the treadmill late night watching ESPN- the old-timer would probably resort to bare-bones climbing of solitary peaks, once on top, perhaps hollering, fists aloft, "PAC-EE-AH-OHH!", or "VIT-AH-LEE!"

This version of Dempsey would probably be a nick better in every physical department than the Toledo incarnation, but, then again, this small evening of the playing field is negligible compared to the champion's heart and mentality that the Mauler would bring to the table against Wlad today: those of an overcomer from a time when fighting was more akin to a life-and-death existence, not merely sport.

BEAUTIFULLY EXPRESSED, P. Me thinks you have works moldering in an attic worth reading.

[Unforgiven]

Not quite, you can train speed like anything else, otherwise world class sprinters simply wouldnt train.

Sure, they train to get faster at sprinting, but that's by improving technique and by building max. strength through explosive training (strength + speed = power).
The actual speed component seems to be almost entirely genetic. Or so I've read.


Genetically the body has white muscle fibre and red muscle fibre. The white muscle fibre is best suited to explosive exercise, ie speed, red muscle fibre for slower endurance exercise.

Certain genetic testing has showed people of West African descent tend to have on average a much higher percentage of white muscle fibre, hence yes speed demons tend to be black. The people with the highest average percentage of red muscle fibre were of East Afrcian descent

However that doesnt mean someone who isn't cant be fast. 1 of the greatest female sprinters of all time was Merlene Ottey and she had a relatively low percentage of white muscle fibre, which was measure at 60% white fibre if I remember rightly (it could be lower).

How could this be possible? Well you can train red muscle fibre to act/switch to behave like white muscle fibre through apropriate training. Training and improving on certain explosive exercises will improve speed and power. Obviously there are genetic limits


Yes, I've read all this too.
I'm no expert on speed and I'm not sure the fibre issue is everything though. Huge bodybuilders can have the white fibres in abundance too, but that doesn't mean they are fast (or maybe it does?).

Merlene Ottey was very tall and very powerful, a great athlete, and very formidable over 60, 100 and 200 metre sprints. Whether this is wholly comparable to having hand speed (punches take a split-second) is hard to say.

I cannot think of any fighters who went from average handspeed to super-quick, unlike for instance several who did develop their strength and power (and agility, balance and other technique etc.)

[PowerPuncher]

1. Sure, they train to get faster at sprinting, but that's by improving technique and by building max. strength through explosive training (strength + speed = power).
The actual speed component seems to be almost entirely genetic. Or so I've read.

Yes, I've read all this too.
I'm no expert on speed and I'm not sure the fibre issue is everything though. Huge bodybuilders can have the white fibres in abundance too, but that doesn't mean they are fast (or maybe it does?).

Merlene Ottey was very tall and very powerful, a great athlete, and very formidable over 60, 100 and 200 metre sprints. Whether this is wholly comparable to having hand speed (punches take a split-second) is hard to say.

I cannot think of any fighters who went from average handspeed to super-quick, unlike for instance several who did develop their strength and power (and agility, balance and other technique etc.)

Speed = Power to Weight Ratio. The more powerful and explosive you become at a lower weight the faster you become, its simple physics. We know various exercises develop power/explosivity, if you improve at these exercises your speed will naturally increase.

Sprinting training is focused on explosivity, over speed training, sprint stamina in various forms. Its a combination of raw speed and speed stamina andevery sprint coach will disgree with the 'speed can not be trained' theory

Obviously there are genetic limitations, but I guarantee you a man with the best genetics in the world, who has never ever thrown a punch, will not have good handspeed

The genetics of speed is based on the percentage of white fibre, the total quantity of muscle fibres (you can increase the size of each fibre but can not change the number of fibres you have), the insertions in the muscle and then there are issues of biomechanics of muscle insertions and joints.

Bodybuilders do not necessarily have allot of white muscle fibre. Just because they have big muscles does not mean they have allot of white muscle, it just means the are maximising their muscle size as a whole

The examples of fighters changing their hand speed isnt a good 1, for 1 thing they've been training for around 10years before you initially see them so they are prtty much peaking. And another is they rarely change their training and if they do it isnt always for the good. Another aspect of handseed is punch technique and it is very hard to change once its learned, and punching speed is very much basd on technique

[john garfield]

Speed = Power to Weight Ratio. The more powerful and explosive you become at a lower weight the faster you become, its simple physics. We know various exercises develop power/explosivity, if you improve at these exercises your speed will naturally increase.

Sprinting training is focused on explosivity, over speed training, sprint stamina in various forms. Its a combination of raw speed and speed stamina andevery sprint coach will disgree with the 'speed can not be trained' theory

Obviously there are genetic limitations, but I guarantee you a man with the best genetics in the world, who has never ever thrown a punch, will not have good handspeed

The genetics of speed is based on the percentage of white fibre, the total quantity of muscle fibres (you can increase the size of each fibre but can not change the number of fibres you have), the insertions in the muscle and then there are issues of biomechanics of muscle insertions and joints.

Bodybuilders do not necessarily have allot of white muscle fibre. Just because they have big muscles does not mean they have allot of white muscle, it just means the are maximising their muscle size as a whole

The examples of fighters changing their hand speed isnt a good 1, for 1 thing they've been training for around 10years before you initially see them so they are prtty much peaking. And another is they rarely change their training and if they do it isnt always for the good. Another aspect of handseed is punch technique and it is very hard to change once its learned, and punching speed is very much basd on technique

You make out a logical case, PP, 'n give a sliver of hope to boxers who've given up the ghost on hand speed.

Lived in gyms since the Stone Age 'n trained with legendary fighters 'n trainers, but never ONCE have I seen an amateur or pro improve hand speed...'n, God knows, they tried.

[lefthook31]

You make out a logical case, PP, 'n give a sliver of hope to boxers who've given up the ghost on hand speed.

Lived in gyms since the Stone Age 'n trained with legendary fighters 'n trainers, but never ONCE have I seen an amateur or pro improve hand speed...'n, God knows, they tried.
Cmon John, if youve lived in a gym since th stone ages youve definitely seen fighters improve their speed with the improvement of their skills and technique.

[Unforgiven]

Obviously there are genetic limitations, but I guarantee you a man with the best genetics in the world, who has never ever thrown a punch, will not have good handspeed


I bet Cassius Clay walked into the gym one day and had the fastest 12-year-old hands in the world.
Oh, maybe it took him a couple of weeks to warm up to it. :D

The examples of fighters changing their hand speed isnt a good 1, for 1 thing they've been training for around 10years before you initially see them so they are prtty much peaking.

No, I'm talking about fighters I've followed through the amateurs on up.
As far as speed goes, there's never much change. If anything they get slower (as they grow bigger).
Everything else can improve dramatically - stamina, power, strength, skill.
But the fast ones were always the fast ones.

[john garfield]

Cmon John, if youve lived in a gym since th stone ages youve definitely seen fighters improve their speed with the improvement of their skills and technique.

"Skills 'n technique," ABSOLUTELY! l Never hand speed, or punching power, in my experience. You can either do it from day one or you can't. It's every fighter's Holy Grail.

Every boxer that I've ever seen who subsequently bloomed as a puncher in the pros showed flashes of that power in the gym as an amateur, but was encouraged only to stick 'n move 'n flurry for the points in three-round amateur bouts.

[Unforgiven]

"Skills 'n technique," ABSOLUTELY! l Never hand speed, or punching power, in my experience. You can either do it from day one or you can't. It's every fighter's Holy Grail.

Every boxer that I've ever seen who subsequently bloomed as a puncher in the pros showed flashes of that power in the gym as an amateur, but was encouraged only to stick 'n move 'n flurry for the points in three-round amateur bouts.

Did you follow Hearns as an amateur ?

[lefthook31]

"Skills 'n technique," ABSOLUTELY! l Never hand speed, or punching power, in my experience. You can either do it from day one or you can't. It's every fighter's Holy Grail.

Every boxer that I've ever seen who subsequently bloomed as a puncher in the pros showed flashes of that power in the gym as an amateur, but was encouraged only to stick 'n move 'n flurry for the points in three-round amateur bouts.
I dont know if were thinking the same but classifying them differently but if a fighter learns to shorten his punches, snap his punches, perfect his balance, timing and delivery it certainly increases both speed and power. Now, I'll agree a fighters power and speed are a God given gift, but it increases and improves when the above factors are applied.

[john garfield]

Did you follow Hearns as an amateur ?

Knew Hearns would come up, U. A prime example of who I had in mind. Dropped guys regularly at the Kronk, but boxed strictly stick 'n move as an amateur, but the eraser was always there.

[Unforgiven]

Knew Hearns would come up, U. A prime example of who I had in mind. Dropped guys regularly at the Kronk, but boxed strictly stick 'n move as an amateur, but the eraser was always there.

yeah, he's the classic example. :good

[prime]

BEAUTIFULLY EXPRESSED, P. Me thinks you have works moldering in an attic worth reading.

Thank you, sir.

And thank you for sharing the unique gems you've got "in the basement".

[PowerPuncher]

I bet Cassius Clay walked into the gym one day and had the fastest 12-year-old hands in the world.
Oh, maybe it took him a couple of weeks to warm up to it. :D

No, I'm talking about fighters I've followed through the amateurs on up.
As far as speed goes, there's never much change. If anything they get slower (as they grow bigger).
Everything else can improve dramatically - stamina, power, strength, skill.
But the fast ones were always the fast ones.

Look at Roy Jones as an amateur, not nearly as fast

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15yo Mosley, nothing like as fast

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Despite being at Fly Pacman isnt nearly as fast as he'd become

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[enquirer]

I think john garfield (along with prime.) have expressed with empirical evidence the take on whether hand speed/power increases naturally.(though there are always exceptions to the rule.)
I would note that this obviously doesnt mean a 16 year old amaateur wont improve in speed/power because he may still be growing or not filled out yet. And obviously you can always make slight improvements,even as an adult.
Steroids CAN increase speed,power,endurance,but they are not going to make julian jackson as quick as meldrick taylor,nor taylor punch as hard as jackson. Nor will they give toney the stamina of armstrong.
Its also worth noting,that sometimes steroids are to the detriment of a fighter,in that some fighters are already finely tuned and 'near perfect' naturally ( aka prime robinson, prime duran,hagler.) and i feel steroids would upset their power/speed/durability,stamina/weight ratio. Picture the difference between 135 duran/147 robinson and the 154 duran/165 robinson to see what i mean.