A new perspective Tunney vs Ali, who wins?

[burt bienstock]

How would the Gene Tunney, at his best,against Dempsey fare against 'Ali,both at their prime,15 rounds? Your opinions?

[itrymariti]

Ali takes him to the cleaners.

[Unforgiven]

Close fight, would go the distance.
Could go either way.

[Son of Gaul]

How would the Gene Tunney, at his best,against Dempsey fare against 'Ali,both at their prime,15 rounds? Your opinions?

Well, one would have to believe the fight would go the distance but I have a hard time seeing Tunney outpointing Ali.

[PowerPuncher]

Ali mocks him ashe batters and stops him the way he did to other undersized LHWs like Patterson, Foster and Moore

[Lobotomy]

Ali's height, reach and speed are the difference here. Gene would study him carefully, and make it a challenge, but Fleischer rated Muhammad as the fastest heavyweight in history. When Tunney had to deal with a faster opponent than himself, Greb gave him hell. Loughran was no picnic for Gene either. Ali had a combination of size, speed, mobility and durability Tunney never had to deal with.

No knockdowns, no stoppage, a fairly uneventful distance bout with a clean decision going to Ali. Gene could outmaneuver and outbox a Marciano, Louis, Liston or Jeffries for 15 rounds. Ali and Holmes are a little too much for him to overcome though. Tunney would likely concentrate on the body for scoring purposes, but it wouldn't be enough. (Grantland Rice in fact did not think Gene's body attack was sufficient to earn the decision in the second Greb match.)

[PetethePrince]

Tunney can't win.

[guilalah]

In three fights: Ali by UD; Ali by SD; Tunney by SD. Tunneys exceptional stamina, in addition to his skill and smarts, keep him in two out of three fights.

[itrymariti]

It's an utter mismatch. Ali has just about every advantage you could possibly conceive. Faster, rangier, better legs, better tools. He'd get to the punch first, control all of the exchanges and be the more physically imposing fighter. Tunney just has no way to get to him.

[Abdullah]

I would pick Ali by decision in this one. Tunney was a lot like Ali. He was the best boxer in the heavyweight division in his time and had great foot movement, timing and speed. Having said that, it is clear that Ali was faster, so that gives Ali a clear advantage, in my opinion. I don't think it would be easy though. Tunney was a tough customer. Ali himself spoke highly of Tunney when watching footage of the past heavyweight champions with Howard Cosell.

[Rock0052]

Due to his ring IQ and skills, Tunney's a nightmare for guys he's faster than; that's not an advantage he'll have vs Ali and I don't think his ring genius would overcome the difference in size and speed Ali would have over him.

Ali on points for me, but it wouldn't be easy.

[PetethePrince]

It's an utter mismatch. Ali has just about every advantage you could possibly conceive. Faster, rangier, better legs, better tools. He'd get to the punch first, control all of the exchanges and be the more physically imposing fighter. Tunney just has no way to get to him.

And equally as smart, regardless of how much Shakespeare Tunney reads.

[djanders]

Interesting matchup. I wouldn't quickly dismiss Tunney's chances! At first glance it seems that both would box and move. This would make the fight a pure boxing match...mmm...slightly favoring Ali...in my opinion. But I'm not so sure it would go that way. One of them could decide to fight more aggessively. If so, the question becomes who would be the matador? Or would they take turns? Then again, Ali sometimes had problems with small heavyweights...and Tunney was brilliant at figuring out an opponent! If my back was against the wall, and I wanted to bet, I would bet on Ali...but I would be a bit uneasy about it.

[mcvey]

In three fights: Ali by UD; Ali by SD; Tunney by SD. Tunneys exceptional stamina, in addition to his skill and smarts, keep him in two out of three fights.

Tunney went 15rds 6 times,in 4 of those fights he had significant weight advantages,in the other 2 there was no difference to speak of.

Only 1 was a heavyweight, Bourke ,Dempsey's sparring partner.

Tunney retired at age 32, he never had to concede great amounts of weight or age to an opponent.

Ali went 15rds 14 times, in at least 9 of them he was past his best ,and ,fighting 200lbs or more heavyweights, all younger than himself.He was 36 when he regained the title from Spinks , and in his mid 30's when he finished stronger than a young Bugner in sweltering humidity.

I see no evidence that Tunney had superior stamina to Ali

Ali can do anything Tunney can, and, in the majority of cases better.U DEC for Ali.

[MRBILL]

How would the Gene Tunney, at his best,against Dempsey fare against 'Ali,both at their prime,15 rounds? Your opinions?


Ali and Tunney would be dreadfully dull, but Ali would be the master and controller of the bout from start to finish...... Ali too tall, fast and cagey for the slick but smaller Tunney in a time machine......

Tunney loses like "Patterson, Ellis & Foster" did to Ali....... Tunney has nothing to keep Ali off of him.... Ali knows that too..........

MR.BILL:hat

[turpinr]

ali stops or ko's tunney.ali doesn't take many punches either. if at all.mismatch

[Unforgiven]

Ali was great in his prime but not nearly as superior as people seem to make him out to be.

I saw Henry Cooper landing hooks and jabs on him and getting inside on him in both their fights, and all Ali could do in that situation was clinch and complain. It's a myth that he could keep these shorter-armed fighters at arm's reach for whole fight. It's a myth that he can evade every blow. Or guaranteed to keep off the ropes the entire fight.

And Gene Tunney is miles better than Henry Cooper. And better than over-the-hill Zora Folley, better than George Chuvalo, Karl Mildenberger etc.

[turpinr]

Ali was great in his prime but not nearly as superior as people seem to make him out to be.

I saw Henry Cooper landing hooks and jabs on him and getting inside on him in both their fights, and all Ali could do in that situation was clinch and complain. It's a myth that he could keep these shorter-armed fighters at arm's reach for whole fight. It's a myth that he can evade every blow. Or guaranteed to keep off the ropes the entire fight.

And Gene Tunney is miles better than Henry Cooper. And better than over-the-hill Zora Folley, better than George Chuvalo, Karl Mildenberger etc.i saw cooper get multiple cuts and batterd by ali too.

[Unforgiven]

i saw cooper get multiple cuts and batterd by ali too.

Cooper was a notorious bleeder. And he wasn't a great fighter by any stretch.
Plenty of heavyweights beat him more convincingly than Ali did.

Thing is, funny how Cooper lands his jabs and gets past Ali's reach on several occasions, but apparently Gene Tunney wont lay a glove on Ali. :lol:

[turpinr]

Cooper was a notorious bleeder. And he wasn't a great fighter by any stretch.
Plenty of heavyweights beat him more convincingly than Ali did.

Thing is, funny how Cooper lands his jabs and gets past Ali's reach on several occasions, but apparently Gene Tunney wont lay a glove on Ali. :lol:i don't think tunney would, no.

[Unforgiven]

i don't think tunney would, no.

You think Henry Cooper was better than Tunney ?

[mcvey]

You think Henry Cooper was better than Tunney ?

Ali was stil a work in progress in the first Cooper fight ,he had no idea about infighting ,and just waited for the ref to break them, plus he underestimated Cooper and clowned around ,after the wake up kd, he got down to business and closed the show.
Cooper fought offensively against Ali ,do you think Tunney would ?

[Unforgiven]

Ali was stil a work in progress in the first Cooper fight ,he had no idea about infighting ,and just waited for the ref to break them, plus he underestimated Cooper and clowned around ,after the wake up kd, he got down to business and closed the show.

The second fight Cooper is landing hooks and jabs and getting inside. Maybe Ali was coasting a bit, but he look genuinely bothered at times.

Cooper fought offensively against Ali ,do you think Tunney would ?

Absolutely. But not in a one-dimensional sense. Tunney was versatile.
But, yes, I think Tunney would use a lot of offense and aggression, a lot of jabbing, hooking off the jab, and lots of hooks to the body and other body shots.
He wont be foolishly chasing Ali, he'll be boxing aggressively.

[turpinr]

You think Henry Cooper was better than Tunney ?no.do you ??

[Unforgiven]

no.do you ??

No.

[he grant]

Ali mocks him ashe batters and stops him the way he did to other undersized LHWs like Patterson, Foster and Moore

Patterson was injured, Moore was over 50 and Foster never beat any quality heavyweight ...Ali did not have his way with Doug Jones ...

Ali by close decision in a tricky fight ..

[itrymariti]

Patterson was injured, Moore was over 50 and Foster never beat any quality heavyweight ...Ali did not have his way with Doug Jones ...

I actually thought Ali beat Jones quite heavily.

[Stevie G]

Well, one would have to believe the fight would go the distance but I have a hard time seeing Tunney outpointing Ali.
This is how I see it. Ali would have been too strong for Tunney. As well as the extra weight,he was also somewhat faster. With feet and hands.

[TheGreatA]

I wonder whether Tunney would try to fight Ali more "fleet-footed" like Bugner, forcing Ali to be the aggressor, or if he would be the aggressor himself as he was against Tommy Gibbons.

Ali was impressed by Tunney's skills but he went onto say that in a fight between two smart boxers, the faster one wins, Ali being the faster of course.

Granted that it was against a middleweight in Harry Greb, but Tunney proved that he would not quit even while taking a beating with no hope of winning. Even if Ali takes the early lead, and gets the better of Tunney, I doubt Tunney would get discouraged. In a series, Tunney might be able to figure out some of the flaws of Ali and take advantage of them, becoming more competitive each time but I struggle to see him winning. Tunney was a more complete boxer but he would be physically outmatched.

Tunney himself did not rate the boxers of Ali's era:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

He didn't think Ali was even as good as Willard:

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Here he says that he'd force Ali into leading.

[turpinr]

I wonder whether Tunney would try to fight Ali more "fleet-footed" like Bugner, forcing Ali to be the aggressor, or if he would be the aggressor himself as he was against Tommy Gibbons.

Ali was impressed by Tunney's skills but he went onto say that in a fight between two smart boxers, the faster one wins, Ali being the faster of course.

Granted that it was against a middleweight in Harry Greb, but Tunney proved that he would not quit even while taking a beating with no hope of winning. Even if Ali takes the early lead, and gets the better of Tunney, I doubt Tunney would get discouraged. In a series, Tunney might be able to figure out some of the flaws of Ali and take advantage of them, becoming more competitive each time but I struggle to see him winning. Tunney was a more complete boxer but he would be physically outmatched.

Tunney himself did not rate the boxers of Ali's era:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
i'm sure ali would be terrified of the tunney era heavies

[TheGreatA]

i'm sure ali would be terrified of the tunney era light heavies

Corrected. :good

I do not agree with Tunney's words but it's interesting. Boxing has supposedly been dead for the past 100 years, going by the words of the old timers and the media.

Ali did rate Tunney:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[turpinr]

Corrected. :good

I do not agree with Tunney's words but it's interesting. Boxing has supposedly been dead for the past 100 years, going by the words of the old timers and the media.

Ali did rate Tunney:

[Only registered and activated users can see links] risko was about 5ft 9 or so.they were hardly giants were they ??

[Pachilles]

"And i can whip all of em! they fight like washer women!" hahaha

[enquirer]

'He moving good,but he aint got no rythmn,coloured folks got more rythmn.' :lol:

[Stevie G]

Patterson was injured, Moore was over 50 and Foster never beat any quality heavyweight ...Ali did not have his way with Doug Jones ...

Ali by close decision in a tricky fight ..
I reckon Ali would stop him late on in the fight. I honestly do n't think Tunney would be too much of a problem for Ali. That's no disrespect to Tunney either. Gene was the best of his era.

[turpinr]

I reckon Ali would stop him late on in the fight. I honestly do n't think Tunney would be too much of a problem for Ali. That's no disrespect to Tunney either. Gene was the best of his era.imagine what smokin' joe would do to mr tunney.

[Stevie G]

imagine what smokin' joe would do to mr tunney.
That one would be similar to Frazier's first fight with Jimmy Ellis. Tunney would box well,and win the first three rounds or so. Joe would get warmed up start piling the pressure on and stop Tunney by around the sixth or seventh.

[gentleman jim]

I too pick Ali but I think this might be a tougher fight than most people believe. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that Cooper was able to jab his way inside and land hooks on Ali in thier two fights. Another fight that was somewhat difficult for Ali that some might have forgotten was his fight with Doug Jones. Although quite a bit smaller, Jones was able to get inside Ali's height and reach advantages by utilizing good boxing technique and some shifty head movement and giving Ali trouble and a close fight as well. Ali looked his best against sluggers like Foreman and Frazier and other big heavies that were a perfect fit for his style ala Williams,Lyle et al. Tunney was smart, tough and an excellent boxer as well. He wouldn't blindly follow Ali around the ring thus falling right into Ali's hands. I think Gene could make this a difficult fight for awhile but I also feel that Ali's size and athleticism would prove to be the deciding factor. The more I see of many of the older era fighters the more respect I have for them and thier so called "primitive" skills.

[Bummy Davis]

Ali had trouble with the smaller quicker guys. Ali has the better Heavyweight resume and did well vs the Big Slow heavy's but the smaller quicker guys could get to him. A hard close win that Ali pulls out with pizazz

[Boilermaker]

imagine what smokin' joe would do to mr tunney.
This is actually hard to imagine.

If we assume that Tunney hit roughly as hard as Ali, give or take a little bit, and then we assume that Frazier would hit roughly as hard as the old Dempsey, then this fight becomes much more interesting. If Dempsey could win just the one round out of 20 against Tunney, is it not reasonable that Frazier might have the same sort of difficulties?

If you consider the Frazier from Ali II and III fights, Tunney's chances probably become a whole lot better. In fact, given the way he handled past prime Dempsey, you would have to think that past prime Frazier is going to be in for an equally long night. I wonder whether Tunney might win 19 of 20 rounds against this Frazier.

This leaves FOTC Frazier. Tunney, being as smart as he was, you would presume wouldnt touch Frazier until he showed his signs of slowing, but if he did, There is nothing to be gained from the Dempsey fights which suggests that Joe would beat Tunney. And if you compare Dempsey to Ali, it is theoretically possible that while he may not have been as quick as Ali, he was still a fair bit quicker than Frazier. And the real key is how hard he hits. Most modern fans assume not in the same league as ali, but i dont know how realistic this is. Ali won his share of rounds, but often was drawn into a slugfest. Tunney would not be drawn in like this, and he has proved that against dangerous heavys (Tunney) he will keep to his game plan and not take risks. He would be right in such a fight.

Flowing from this, in an Ali sense, is that if Gene can perform so well and technically better than Ali himself did against Frazier (as proved by the dempsey fights) then why should he not be given a chance against Ali?

[Stevie G]

This is actually hard to imagine.

If we assume that Tunney hit roughly as hard as Ali, give or take a little bit, and then we assume that Frazier would hit roughly as hard as the old Dempsey, then this fight becomes much more interesting. If Dempsey could win just the one round out of 20 against Tunney, is it not reasonable that Frazier might have the same sort of difficulties?

If you consider the Frazier from Ali II and III fights, Tunney's chances probably become a whole lot better. In fact, given the way he handled past prime Dempsey, you would have to think that past prime Frazier is going to be in for an equally long night. I wonder whether Tunney might win 19 of 20 rounds against this Frazier.

This leaves FOTC Frazier. Tunney, being as smart as he was, you would presume wouldnt touch Frazier until he showed his signs of slowing, but if he did, There is nothing to be gained from the Dempsey fights which suggests that Joe would beat Tunney. And if you compare Dempsey to Ali, it is theoretically possible that while he may not have been as quick as Ali, he was still a fair bit quicker than Frazier. And the real key is how hard he hits. Most modern fans assume not in the same league as ali, but i dont know how realistic this is. Ali won his share of rounds, but often was drawn into a slugfest. Tunney would not be drawn in like this, and he has proved that against dangerous heavys (Tunney) he will keep to his game plan and not take risks. He would be right in such a fight.

Flowing from this, in an Ali sense, is that if Gene can perform so well and technically better than Ali himself did against Frazier (as proved by the dempsey fights) then why should he not be given a chance against Ali?
it must be remembered that Dempsey was way past his best when he fought Tunney. We're hypothesising about a prime,or near to his prime,Frazier here.

[itrymariti]

Don't know why there's so much debate here. It's like Mayweather/Marquez. It doesn't matter how smart a ring general you are; if your opponent has lopsided physical advantages (which Ali does: height, reach, speed, footwork etc.) you just have no say in the fight. It's ok against guys that fight into your hands (Dempsey) and allow you to use your tricks, but against somebody who can control all of the action on their terms it's a different story.

[Unforgiven]

Don't know why there's so much debate here. It's like Mayweather/Marquez. It doesn't matter how smart a ring general you are; if your opponent has lopsided physical advantages (which Ali does: height, reach, speed, footwork etc.) you just have no say in the fight. It's ok against guys that fight into your hands (Dempsey) and allow you to use your tricks, but against somebody who can control all of the action on their terms it's a different story.

In other words you're saying Tunney cant win, and your reason is : he cant win.

[burt bienstock]

unforgiven...I love your answer...B can't win because A is before it.....

[Calroid]

Ali

[janitor]

People are right to make Ali the favourite, but this is not a gimee fight by any means, and those saying that Ali would win easily are frankly being a bit silly.

Tunney was as cerebral and analytical fighter as you will find in any era. He would study Ali's style to formulate a fight plan to beat him, and I am prepared to predict exactly what he would pick up on.

1. He would notice that Ali did not work as well on the forefoot when forced to be the agressor. He would formulate various strategies for leading him round the ring to thrtow him off his game plan. He would be quite varied in his aproach to doing this if necesary.

2. He would look at how Ali pulled back to avoid punches, and could not fail to observe that he was vulnerable to a number of combinations. Such fighters are always vulnerable to hooks and uppercuts, and Ken Norton was always able to tag Ali with the jab. What I suspect that Tunney would do is throw feints when Ali was going backwards and then come in with some combinations that hit him where it hurt.

Tunney was a guy who would never fail to observe these kinds of weakneses and would never fail to exploit them.

I don't think that Ali would have had an easy time with Tommy Loughran either.

[Unforgiven]

I imagine Tunney coming forward a lot, and not getting Ali to come forward.
i dont think Ali was particularly uncomfortable standing his ground and coming forward. He even did it against Liston when Liston stopped coming at him. Ali was aggressive.

I think Tunney was a great body puncher and a great all-round boxer. He'd be aggressive, come forward, counter-puncher, be versatile.
He'd box Ali like Doug Jones boxed Clay.

[janitor]

[quote=Unforgiven;6400462]I imagine Tunney coming forward a lot, and not getting Ali to come forward.


This might be part of his plan, but I suspect that he would make Ali fight on the front foot where he could and try to throw him off his game.


i dont think Ali was particularly uncomfortable standing his ground and coming forward. He even did it against Liston when Liston stopped coming at him. Ali was aggressive.


But what is going to happen when he is up agaqinst a small and highly mobile fighter who tries to use his own tactics against him?

I cannot discount the Jimmy Young fight entirely even though Ali was obviously past it.


I think Tunney was a great body puncher and a great all-round boxer. He'd be aggressive, come forward, counter-puncher, be versatile.
He'd box Ali like Doug Jones boxed Clay.


Counterpunching would certainly be key to his game, but I suspect that he would rather try to lead Ali into counters rather than press him and be the one doing the leading.

[itrymariti]

In other words you're saying Tunney cant win, and your reason is : he cant win.

No, my reason is that he's lopsidedly outclassed in all of the physical aspects of the game, and I've been very clear about that.

[janitor]

No, my reason is that he's lopsidedly outclassed in all of the physical aspects of the game, and I've been very clear about that.

Is technique a physical aspect?

[Unforgiven]

No, my reason is that he's lopsidedly outclassed in all of the physical aspects of the game, and I've been very clear about that.

Fair enough. I must just disagree on the specifics then.
He's a similar size to some of the men who gave Ali trouble.
And I dont agree that he's lopsidedly slower, nor do i agree that Ali had better footwork.

[Unforgiven]

This might be part of his plan, but I suspect that he would make Ali fight on the front foot where he could and try to throw him off his game.

That's just not how I imagine it.
You dont win fights by being that negative. Not against a fit Ali.


But what is going to happen when he is up agaqinst a small and highly mobile fighter who tries to use his own tactics against him?


I dont see why Tunney would try to use "Ali tactics". And I dont see why Ali would be the one being made to do anything.
Ali was as clever as Tunney.



I cannot discount the Jimmy Young fight entirely even though Ali was obviously past it.



Counterpunching would certainly be key to his game, but I suspect that he would rather try to lead Ali into counters rather than press him and be the one doing the leading.


I dont imagine it like that. They'd box each other, mid-ring for the most part, neither of them being fully the chaser or the chased, they'd just box. If anything the onus would be on Tunney to come forward more often because he'd be the one with less reach, but I think he'd navigate that quite well and jab a lot to the body and use angles and not overreach by trying to get Ali's head all the time.

Tunney's not about the stink the place out like Jimmy Young or Joe Bugner. Tunney comes to box and fight, not just "steal it".

[janitor]

That's just not how I imagine it.
You dont win fights by being that negative. Not against a fit Ali.

I dont see why Tunney would try to use "Ali tactics". And I dont see why Ali would be the one being made to do anything.
Ali was as clever as Tunney.

I dont imagine it like that. They'd box each other, mid-ring for the most part, neither of them being fully the chaser or the chased, they'd just box. If anything the onus would be on Tunney to come forward more often because he'd be the one with less reach, but I think he'd navigate that quite well and jab a lot to the body and use angles and not overreach by trying to get Ali's head all the time.

Tunney's not about the stink the place out like Jimmy Young or Joe Bugner. Tunney comes to box and fight, not just "steal it".

I was not implying that Tunney would be negative.

Far from it.

I do think however that he would preffer to keep Ali on the front foot where he could and use Ali's to set up his counters.

Above all he would be trying to break up what he perceived to be Ali's preffered strategy and make him fight a different fight.

[djanders]

I think some here are saying that Tunney can't compete with Ali because there is no modern-like, colored footage of Gene available. I, too, believe Ali would win this fight, but there is no way he would have an easy time with Mr. Gene Tunney!

[itrymariti]

Is technique a physical aspect?

It's a blurry distinction, like most. (What constitutes "skill"? Is chin a "skill"? Power?) By "physical aspects" I meant speed and size mostly.

[itrymariti]

Fair enough. I must just disagree on the specifics then.
He's a similar size to some of the men who gave Ali trouble.

Smaller men did give Ali trouble in a sense, I suppose, and Ali was always vulnerable to guys who bulled inside, whatever their size. (Even Juergen Blin managed it for a few rounds!) Without excuses, though, Ali often spent most of his time clowning those kind of opponents, and when it really came down to it he didn't have much trouble getting rid of them. Against a prime, focused version of Ali, only the very best "bulls" (e.g. Frazier) would be successful. There's also the question of whether Tunney could imitate that kind of style or not. He may have been clever to realise Ali's vulnerabilities, but could he really turn himself overnight into somebody with the chin, work-rate and strength to continually close the gap and out-score Ali? I don't think so.

And I dont agree that he's lopsidedly slower, nor do i agree that Ali had better footwork.

Ali certainly has the faster feet, which is a problem for a guy whose style isn't really manufactured around getting inside. (In fact, Tunney often punches short against Dempsey.)

[djanders]

Okay. Gene was 6'0", 190 pounds. To those who think Gene has no chance in this: Pretend for a moment that Gene was 6'3", 215 pounds...with the same exact opponents, same record, same exact outcomes, etcetera. What are his chances against Ali now? :D

[Bokaj]

I think Tunney could make it tricky for Ali. This would be a fight for the connesseurs, I think.

What I don't agree with is that Tunney's power was equal to Ali's. It wasn't.