What could Patterson have done differently against Liston?

[mr. magoo]

Was there any way for Floyd to save his title? Could he have approached Sonny in a more effective manner?

[janitor]

I am minded to say that his best option would be not to sign the contract however-

The most critical thing with Liston is not to come towards him. This is exactly what he feeds off. Once you deny him that he has a long night on his hands.

I would advise Patterson to make Liston force the fight, use lateral movment to prevent him from setting up the jab. It probably wont work but it might make things more competitive.

[OLD FOGEY]

Wad there any way for Floyd to save his title? Could he have approached Sonny in a more effective manner?

I think he difinitely should have tried lateral movement and retreating to stay away from Liston in the early rounds, bobbing low when Liston got close. It made no sense to get inside with Sonny early. Patterson played into Sonny's hands.
I don't know if another strategy could have worked, but it could not have failed more miserably. Many experts in fact thought that Patterson would win. He had his supporters and Liston had his doubters. The Liston as superman image came after the Patterson fights.

[PowerPuncher]

Firstly have a positive mental attitude of superiority and dont be scared - be scared enough to perform at your best not too much to be intimadated.

Stay in the pocket, shoulder roll defense, tight guard, wait to counter, get out and reset, use latteral movement, don't be affraid to throw potshots when Liston makes defencive errors and when you get to the ropes turn him round so he has to cut off the whole rung again.

Using the right mentality and strategy can drastically change how fights pan out

[garymcfall]

Patterson didnt have the footwork to stay away from Liston and didnt have the strength to try and tie him up. If i was him like said before id try lots of lateral movement, quick combinations, then moving again. Basically running the whole fight and trying to score points without getting in a position where liston could knock him out. It wouldnt work though it would just postpone the inevitable knockout.

[mr. magoo]

I think he difinitely should have tried lateral movement and retreating to stay away from Liston in the early rounds, bobbing low when Liston got close. It made no sense to get inside with Sonny early. Patterson played into Sonny's hands.
I don't know if another strategy could have worked, but it could not have failed more miserably. Many experts in fact thought that Patterson would win. He had his supporters and Liston had his doubters. The Liston as superman image came after the Patterson fights.

I have to agree with both you and Janitor, that it was definately foolish of Patterson to engage Liston at close range and so early on. Do you feel however, that he indeed had the boxing ability to launch such a plan involving more lateral movement and boxing from a distance? Sonny had a tremendous jab that he could use from long range, and a way of cutting off the ring.

I don't know.

[OLD FOGEY]

I have to agree with both you and Janitor, that it was definately foolish of Patterson to engage Liston at close range and so early on. Do you feel however, that he indeed had the boxing ability to launch such a plan involving more lateral movement and boxing from a distance? Sonny had a tremendous jab that he could use from long range, and a way of cutting off the ring.

I don't know.

Frankly, I don't either. One thing about Patterson no one comments on. Marciano and Frazier and others are rightly or wrongly scored for being slow starters. No one mentions that Patterson seems to have been a slow starter. Cooper is the only name or semi-name opponent he ko'd in less than five. And his career ko percentage is pumped up a bit by his greater success at lightheavy. He ko'd 18 of 34 at heavy, with his biggest victims Ingo and London at 206 and both of them probably could have and should have come in a few pounds lighter. Unlike Dempsey, Louis, or Marciano, his power has to be viewed as somewhat suspect against big heavies the size of Liston, let alone one as talented as Liston.

[mr. magoo]

Frankly, I don't either. One thing about Patterson no one comments on. Marciano and Frazier and others are rightly or wrongly scored for being slow starters. No one mentions that Patterson seems to have been a slow starter. Cooper is the only name or semi-name opponent he ko'd in less than five. And his career ko percentage is pumped up a bit by his greater success at lightheavy. He ko'd 18 of 34 at heavy, with his biggest victims Ingo and London at 206 and both of them probably could have and should have come in a few pounds lighter. Unlike Dempsey, Louis, or Marciano, his power has to be viewed as somewhat suspect against big heavies the size of Liston, let alone one as talented as Liston.

True,

I don't particularly think that Patterson was as devastating as his numbers might reflect either. When it came to facing some of the larger, stronger heavyweights of the 60's, Floyd certainly appeared less formidable and more vulnerable.

[mcvey]

I have to agree with both you and Janitor, that it was definately foolish of Patterson to engage Liston at close range and so early on. Do you feel however, that he indeed had the boxing ability to launch such a plan involving more lateral movement and boxing from a distance? Sonny had a tremendous jab that he could use from long range, and a way of cutting off the ring.

I don't know.
Liston was poor at cutting off the ring ,he just followed his opponents around,unlike his protege Foreman ,who was very adept at geometry inside the ropes,the thing was patterson couldnt box on the retreat ,behind his jab,as someone like Machen could,Floyd was essentially a swarmer,but he was too small ,and not powerful enough to do it against Liston,its a style matchup that is just terrible for Patterson,like frazier against Foreman.

[Joe E]

Run.

[Longhhorn71]

Run.

Patterson was just too small.....Liston's heavy punches blasted thru
Floyd's defense and smashed him to the ground.

Eddie Machen had some success against Liston using footwork and
and handspeed, and big Heavies like Cleve Williams and Ali were able
to hit Liston with their long reach.

As they say in Texas, Floyd knew "it was all over but the crying".

[bumdujour]

Was there any way for Floyd to save his title? Could he have approached Sonny in a more effective manner?

brought a gun???

[Duodenum]

Floyd demonstrated against Chuvalo that he was capable of moving laterally, and ducking under Liston's shots while on the move. What he did against Chuvalo is what he should have attempted with Sonny.

[ChrisPontius]

Do what Ibragimov did against Briggs. I don't think he can pull it off and Liston is not a plodding statue like Briggs, but it's his only chance. Get low, land a few shots or impress the judges with it, get outside and stay away early as much as possible.



I don't know if another strategy could have worked, but it could not have failed more miserably. Many experts in fact thought that Patterson would win. He had his supporters and Liston had his doubters. The Liston as superman image came after the Patterson fights.

This is very interesting.
If Liston was not that highly regarded, how much was thought of him after the two Clay fights?

Also, you said "most experts thought that Patterson would win", was that before or after the first fight ?

[OLD FOGEY]

Do what Ibragimov did against Briggs. I don't think he can pull it off and Liston is not a plodding statue like Briggs, but it's his only chance. Get low, land a few shots or impress the judges with it, get outside and stay away early as much as possible.




This is very interesting.
If Liston was not that highly regarded, how much was thought of him after the two Clay fights?

Also, you said "most experts thought that Patterson would win", was that before or after the first fight ?

I said "many" experts, not most. Obviously, Liston was the bigger favorite for the second fight, but there were some who thought Patterson might do to Liston what he did to Johansson and turn it around, but Liston was a strong favorite.
After the second first-round knockout, Liston's rep went off the charts. Interestingly, the experts considered the then Cassius Clay to not be in the same class as Patterson.

His rep then plunged after the two Ali fights to rock bottom. It has obviously come way back as about 10% of posters on this forum think Liston would sweep against the ten greatest heavyweights, including Ali. I think he was strongly overrated after the Patterson fights, was badly underrated after the Ali debacles, and is once more grossly overrated.

[albinored]

To use Patterson's beating Chuvalo shows that he could have beaten Liston is like saying Saddler's beating Pep proves he could have beaten Jake Lamotta. no way...no style would have made a difference. on the outside liston would just have jabbed him until the crowd pleaded for the fight to be stopped, as looking at Patterson's face would have been too much for even hardened fight fans, and on the inside...well, we know what happened there, don't we. (no question mark; rhetorical question.)

This is my first post on this forum, and I'm glad I was able to make it factual one instead of just an opinion.

[janitor]

This is very interesting.
If Liston was not that highly regarded, how much was thought of him after the two Clay fights?


I think it is after the Patterson fights that they started to build him up into a demi god.

You can see from the general forum how a fighter is as good as their last fight.

After the Ali fights he sliped right back down to about the level of Max Baer.

[fg2227]

The only way patterson could beat liston is with a machine gun. Even then you gotta fancy liston.

[mcvey]

Floyd demonstrated against Chuvalo that he was capable of moving laterally, and ducking under Liston's shots while on the move. What he did against Chuvalo is what he should have attempted with Sonny.
Chuvalo had a poor jab and average power not a good facsimile of Liston.

[Holmes' Jab]

I am minded to say that his best option would be not to sign the contract however-

The most critical thing with Liston is not to come towards him. This is exactly what he feeds off. Once you deny him that he has a long night on his hands.

I would advise Patterson to make Liston force the fight, use lateral movment to prevent him from setting up the jab. It probably wont work but it might make things more competitive.

A fair shout. :good

[DavidPayne]

Logically, you could look to the subsequent Ali performances for the blue print to defeating Liston, but though of equivalent speed of hand Patterson lacked Ali's resolve, his chin and self-belief.

Patterson is sometimes cruely reviewed by historians, but he was a tremendous fighter, fast with a thudding punch but deeply flawed in the mental aspect of the sport and his defence was porous too.

I don't think Patterson could have found a game plan to resist Liston, it's simply a fight he couldn't win. Liston was fresher then too and hungrier.

Liston was a monster at his best.

[Quick Cash]

Chuvalo had a poor jab and average power not a good facsimile of Liston.

You have to wonder though why he didn't opt to employ the same strategy against a bigger puncher in Liston. I mean if he was already reticent against a light hitting Chuvalo, logically he would have avoided Sonny's punches more actively. Instead he was caught cold twice in two fights.

[DavidPayne]

I think David Remnick covers Patterson's complex pyschology and it does, in a fashion, explain why he may have been caught.

It could also of course simply be Liston was a country mile better at throwing punches than Chuvalo.

[Duodenum]

To use Patterson's beating Chuvalo shows that he could have beaten Liston is like saying Saddler's beating Pep proves he could have beaten Jake Lamotta. no way...no style would have made a difference. on the outside liston would just have jabbed him until the crowd pleaded for the fight to be stopped, as looking at Patterson's face would have been too much for even hardened fight fans, and on the inside...well, we know what happened there, don't we. (no question mark; rhetorical question.)

This is my first post on this forum, and I'm glad I was able to make it factual one instead of just an opinion.Welcome to the boards! (Does this mean I can retire from here now?) Of course I said nothing about whether or not Floyd could have ever beaten Sonny, merely that he might have done better had he attempted the approach he employed against Chuvalo.

Patterson's actual tactics against Liston were suicidal, just as the way Mike Spinks tried to start against Tyson was.

Some have suggested that the Patterson of Johansson II, who unleashed "The Left Hook from Hell," might have been far better suited mentally for putting up significant resistance against Sonny.

Could Floyd have survived against Liston as Eddie Machen did? Whether he could or couldn't, there's no question that Sonny had him as mentally beaten beforehand as Ali did Quarry.

[DocDevil]

Floyd coulda done some things to make the fight go longer,but woulda been in trouble after the first good Liston punch.

[frankwornank]

The short answer is he could not have done differently. Floyd had excellent power and great hand speed. He really only knew one way to fight and that was aggressive.

He did not have great leg movement. He was a bit slow footed. (In part this was due to the fact he had one leg slightly shorter than the other) I f you ever observed him walk, he kind of swaggered due to that shorter leg.

He developed his style in the middleweight and light heavy divisions where he was as strong or stronger than his opponents. When he moved up to heavyweight, his style remained the same. However, he was now fighting bigger and sometimes stronger guys.

Floyd continued to do pretty well because he was pound for pound a real good fighter.

Bottom line is, some of the heavyweights (mainly Ali and Liston were too big for him)

[Stonehands89]

To a large degree, Floyd's chances would be decided by Liston's approach. If Liston just disdainfully goes at him in a tight formation looking for the KO, Floyd will fall 8 out of 10 times. Floyd just doesn't have the physicality or the chin to survive without a lot of luck.

Conventional wisdom would advise trying to land that left hook, but Liston was prepared for that. The alternative would be to develop a surprise shot -I'd say an overhand right designed to catch Liston coming in and then land the left if he hesitates or his staggered. Overhand rights can be a lethal weapon against taller, aggressive guys.

The simple answer here is "probably nothing."

[ironchamp]

The first comparision that came to mind with regards to this fight was

Tommy Morrison vs. George Foreman.

Morrison's use of lateral movement put him away from harms length long enough to earn him the decision.

For Patterson to have pulled this off he needs to keep away and flurry and use lots of lateral movement and try to make his handspeed a factor. Slow down the tempo of the fight and he can't be afraid to let his hands go when Liston makes a mistake. He needs to earn the respect of Liston at some point otherwise its inevitable. Could he have pulled it off? Probably not but I think with the right strategy it could have been possible.

[ChrisPontius]

Another big disadvantage besides those already listed, is that Liston is very adept at blocking the left hook with his right glove. Straight punches (or perhaps uppercuts from a taller fighter) seem to be more succesful against him.

[Duodenum]

Another big disadvantage besides those already listed, is that Liston is very adept at blocking the left hook with his right glove. Straight punches (or perhaps uppercuts from a taller fighter) seem to be more succesful against him.Right. It should be noted that Floyd did have excellent power in both hands. The first knockdown he scored in the rubber match with Ingo was a very short and straight right. Patterson would have been wise to use the hook as a decoy for his right. (It might not have made a difference in the outcome, but we'll never know.)

[mr. magoo]

Right. It should be noted that Floyd did have excellent power in both hands. The first knockdown he scored in the rubber match with Ingo was a very short and straight right. Patterson would have been wise to use the hook as a decoy for his right. (It might not have made a difference in the outcome, but we'll never know.)

Boy,

I've been seeing your name all over the forum today. I feel like we're having a Deen-O-Rama.....:lol:

Needless to say, I just needed a reason to use the whole Deen-O-Rama thing...... you understand of course........

[Duodenum]

Boy,

I've been seeing your name all over the forum today. I feel like we're having a Deen-O-Rama.....:lol:

Needless to say, I just needed a reason to use the whole Deen-O-Rama thing...... you understand of course........By all means, indulge to your heart's content. You know I'm cool with it.

[mr. magoo]

By all means, indulge to your heart's content. You know I'm cool with it.

:good

Say,

I've been thinking about rewriting the Rocky III theme song Eye of the Tiger, in a similar fashion to what the starbucks comercials did a year or so ago.

It would go like this:

Deen-----Deen-Deen-Deen------Deen-Deen-Deen------Deen-Deen----DaDeeeeeeen.

Haven't quite thought of the lyrics yet, but I think I have a pretty good start wouldn't you say? maybe surviver will just hand over the rights to the tune.

[Duodenum]

:good

Say,

I've been thinking about rewriting the Rocky III theme song Eye of the Tiger, in a similar fashion to what the starbucks comercials did a year or so ago.

It would go like this:

Deen-----Deen-Deen-Deen------Deen-Deen-Deen------Deen-Deen----DaDeeeeeeen.

Haven't quite thought of the lyrics yet, but I think I have a pretty good start wouldn't you say? maybe surviver will just hand over the rights to the tune.Thanks for the earworm, friend.:wall

[mcvey]

The short answer is he could not have done differently. Floyd had excellent power and great hand speed. He really only knew one way to fight and that was aggressive.

He did not have great leg movement. He was a bit slow footed. (In part this was due to the fact he had one leg slightly shorter than the other) I f you ever observed him walk, he kind of swaggered due to that shorter leg.

He developed his style in the middleweight and light heavy divisions where he was as strong or stronger than his opponents. When he moved up to heavyweight, his style remained the same. However, he was now fighting bigger and sometimes stronger guys.

Floyd continued to do pretty well because he was pound for pound a real good fighter.

Bottom line is, some of the heavyweights (mainly Ali and Liston were too big for him)
good post Floyd was a come forward fighter,he couldnt duplicate Machen and box behind the jab,so he would allways be introuble against bigger stronger guys who could hit,you are right about his defence,and his walk he sort of swaggered ,which was not his demeanour at all,I didnt know it was because of one leg being shorter though,thanks for the info.

[mr. magoo]

Thanks for the earworm, friend.:wall

My appolgies.

[Duodenum]

My appolgies.That's okay. I had an entirely unrelated set of nightmares I just woke up from. Nothing related to ESB though.

[Rattler]

Nothing.

[Ted Stickles]

Was there any way for Floyd to save his title? Could he have approached Sonny in a more effective manner?

Either stay home or sneak a gun into the ring with him......

[Ted Stickles]

But seriously the best thing he should have done was be extrememly mobile and use his speed to pop in and out ala PBF..Liston would most likely slow down in the 2nd half of the fight and would be a little less dangerous

[rodney]

In order to have a chance, Patterson must not be in Liston's punching range. Since he was not an outside fighter, then inside was the only way. He tried inside but was not inside enough. Maybe Floyd just didnt have the strenght and confidence to stay right inside Liston, leaning on him and giving him no room to punch.

[RockyJim]

Stay home on those particular nights......

[ironchamp]

In order to have a chance, Patterson must not be in Liston's punching range. Since he was not an outside fighter, then inside was the only way. He tried inside but was not inside enough. Maybe Floyd just didnt have the strenght and confidence to stay right inside Liston, leaning on him and giving him no room to punch.

The same could have been said about Morrison vs. Foreman a match up in which I immediately think of when trying to think of how Patterson could have fought him differently.

Lateral Movement, Consistent Jab and flurries could have enabled Floyd to last longer possibly see him to a decision. His bob and weave should stay where it is but as long as he's circling Sonny in a varied pattern it could work.

[jowcol]

At that particular time, it probably didn't matter; an old friend of mine, an elderly black man I used to work with and who loved boxing said that Patterson was fixated on destroying the Liston superman myth because he had such overwhelming support and respect around the country (and world) so he went out and fought "the people's fight" and disregarded any common sense. When I see both fights again (I try and watch them as little as possible :? ) I see the usually slow starting Floyd more active and aggressive from the get go to a much greater extent here then in most of his fights.

My $0.02