Leon Spinks 1978 v Marvis Frazier 1983

[Stevie G]

Two fighters who were n't brought along properly. Who would have won ? I say Spinks' more natural aggression would give him this on points. Both fighters' natural division was cruiserweight,imo. Spinks' team were a rabble,and Joe Frazier made serious lapses of judgement with his son's career.

[mr. magoo]

This is a reasonably good match-up, and one that I'd have a difficult time chosing a man to bet money on.. I don't think any other match in history would have involved two men with such vast experience for only have 8 and 10 fights.... Leon was an olympic gold medalist who had gone 15 rounds to beat the champ, while Marvis had a very respectable amateur career and had beaten a resurgent Joe Bugner plus undefeated James Broad... Let's say the fight was scheduled for 12 rounds for something like the USBA title.. Leon had the claim to having fought a full 15 rounds, whereas Marvis had gone at least 10 on a few occasions... Leon was probably the harder hitter and more aggressive in the first few rounds, but tended to lose steam later on, whereas Marvis was a sound boxer, who had beaten big punchers over the distance.. If both were at their very best ( something that Leon wasn't always ), I might give him a strong chance at taking the nod on the cards, due to his aggressiveness, but anytime after 1980, I would have easily gone with Marvis....

Incidentally, this would have been a good prep fight, as well as a good named opponent for Marvis around 1983.. Leon was bouncing back and forth from heavy to cruiserwieght with a mixed bag of results, but he was a very recent title challenger and probably still in his late 20's... These are the types of fights that Marvis needed more of, before making quantum leaps to the elite..

[Stevie G]

This is a reasonably good match-up, and one that I'd have a difficult time chosing a man to bet money on.. I don't think any other match in history would have involved two men with such vast experience for only have 8 and 10 fights.... Leon was an olympic gold medalist who had gone 15 rounds to beat the champ, while Marvis had a very respectable amateur career and had beaten a resurgent Joe Bugner plus undefeated James Broad... Let's say the fight was scheduled for 12 rounds for something like the USBA title.. Leon had the claim to having fought a full 15 rounds, whereas Marvis had gone at least 10 on a few occasions... Leon was probably the harder hitter and more aggressive in the first few rounds, but tended to lose steam later on, whereas Marvis was a sound boxer, who had beaten big punchers over the distance.. If both were at their very best ( something that Leon wasn't always ), I might give him a strong chance at taking the nod on the cards, due to his aggressiveness, but anytime after 1980, I would have easily gone with Marvis....

Incidentally, this would have been a good prep fight, as well as a good named opponent for Marvis around 1983.. Leon was bouncing back and forth from heavy to cruiserwieght with a mixed bag of results, but he was a very recent title challenger and probably still in his late 20's... These are the types of fights that Marvis needed more of, before making quantum leaps to the elite..
Good post Mr.Magoo. I've always said that Marvis had been fed to the lions like Holmes and Tyson or was FED low grade fighters. He should have been tested against the medium oppossition a bit more.

[mr. magoo]

Good post Mr.Magoo. I've always said that Marvis had been fed to the lions like Holmes and Tyson or was FED low grade fighters. He should have been tested against the medium oppossition a bit more.


That has always been my biggest problem with how Marvis Frazier's career had been handled... That, and the fact that his father tried to shape him into a type of fighter that he wasn't, ( a puncher. ) Had he been trained by someone who would have best utilized what he had, such as Angelo Dundee, and been fed a string of middle of the road opponents, he might have developed more properly.. From 1983-1984, there was a whole circuit of active fighting men who's talents weren't superb, but at least stayed busy and had decent records such as Gordon Racette, Monte Masters, Tony Fulilangi, Scott Frank, and Joe Thomas.... These are some of the guys that Frazier should have been facing... Then he needed to fight the pages and Berbicks before facing a Tyson or a Holmes....

[abraq]

Yes, I have always felt that Marvis' career was definitely mishandled. Serious misjudgments by Papa Joe. When Marvis was massacred by Mike Tyson, Joe was reported to have commented something like "that's the way I like to see a man go down". I believe that Marvis would have a much better record if he had been handled properly.

As for Leon Spinks, he got lucky 'big time' early in his career and then basically self-destructed.

[Titan1]

Leon would decision Marvis by UD, by outworking him, and surviving a late run.

[MRBILL]

A war........ Spinks with better power and Frazier with the better boxing skills........ A toss-up.....

MR.BILL

[mr. magoo]

Come to think of it, I really don't know how heavily Leon's win over Ali can factor into the equation.... Sure it was impressive that a 6-0 nobody was able to go 15 rounds and beat the greatest heavyweight of all time, but outside of this looking monumentally incredible on paper, was it really the greatest that he beat? Ali was in the very last days of his career, clowing against Spinks, and even left some with the suspician that he had thrown the fight ( no evidence to support the claim. ) Ali shpwed up for the rematch, barely looking any better than he did in the first fight, and soundly defeated him... If we're honest, Gerrie Coetzee was the first truly live opponent, that Leon would face, and one who actually tried to take him apart... Look at what happened... In 1981, and with some additional experience behind him, Leon would face Larry Holmes... Holmes who was not much of a puncher, destroyed Leon in 3 rounds, making him the shortest defense he'd ever record, given that the Frazier fight was not recognized as a title bout... Spink's other fights to this point included draws with journeyman Ledoux and Lopez... He did manage to get a KO against hard punching Mercado, but Mike Weaver and John tate had already made short work of him...

I hate to show any disrespect to a member of the Spinks Klan, and one who had the claim of being both a gold medalist and a world champion, but frankly I think that it was obscured angles that enabled Leon to make a name for himself... Marvis might not have accomplished much by 1983, but he would at least put together a respectable streak against top raters later on such as Bonecrusher Smith, Jose Ribalta, James Tillis, Funso Banjo and Berbard Benton - something that Spinks never proved he could do...

[Lobotomy]

When it comes right down to it, Leon did win the big one at a time when Norton, Young and Shavers could not do it to a post Manila Ali. Muhammad had Earnie on the brink at the end of his final successful title defense, but Leon managed to get over the hump. Mercado was on the best streak of his career when Leon stopped him.

I think Leon's pressure and hustle would have been too much for Marvis to overcome, assuming both were at their best. Leon was far better suited to the style Joe Frazier employed, and he might run Marvis out of the ring if the younger Frazier attempted to box at a distance.

Leon had good hand speed, he could hit, and he was opportunistic (as he demonstrated when the bell rang early in the second round against Holmes, and Larry dropped his guard). Put wise old Sam Solomon in Leon's corner, and I'd definitely favor him to take the decision.

[mr. magoo]

=Lobotomy;6396103]When it comes right down to it, Leon did win the big one at a time when Norton, Young and Shavers could not do it to a post Manila Ali.

In all fairness, all three of those guys were close enough to where they could have received the very same nod that Leon got, with the only difference being, that Ali actually gave an EFFORT against them.. Ali also fought some of them as far back as two years before ever meeting Spinks.


Mercado was on the best streak of his career when Leon stopped him.

Perhaps, but he was a man who blew hot and cold.. With 20 pro bouts behind him, he was stopped in 2 rounds by a 12 fight Tate, and in 5 rounds by an unknown Weaver... An aging Shavers had him down in the first, but tired in the very same fashion that he did against Tex Cobb around the same period....

Not saying that we can't award Leon some credit for taking the title, but the feat has to have its limits when using it as a gauge in head to head comparisons..

[Boilermaker]

Stevie, i dont think it is fair to say that these guys were necessarilly that badly managed.

Leon Spinks got given his chance at the big pay day and he was good enough to take it. Sure, he partied his talent away because of this, but that isnt management's fault! Either way, I doubt he was ever going to be a dominant champion no matter what the circumstances. If he was brought along slower, he almost certainly would have never been considered world champion, unless he was good enough to beat prime holmes which is possible but unlikely. I dont think i would be changing anythin about his management.

Frazier is a little different, but be honest here, Is there anything that anyone could have done which would have seen him beat Larry Holmes or Mike Tyson? Quite simply, he tried but wasnt good enough. I suppose you could have taken him along a little slower and hoped to catch Holmes about when Spinks did, but even then would the result have necessarilly be any different? What would have happened if you took him along slower and he actually dropped a few decisions to some of this slightly tougher competition? Would you say that he was brought along poorly then?

I just dont see what else you could hope to achieve by bringing him along differently. Maybe a title, like Tate or someone had, but be honest, those have zero credibility. All in all, i think that there is too much fiddling around and planning of careers nowadays. Marvin had his shot at being the best, he fought the best and failed. When he failed, he learned from it and kept going. Nothing could change that. Actually, is there not an argument that his victories over Broad, Bonecrusher and others were actually were actually assisted by the experience he gained from his losing efforts against Holmes?

[MRBILL]

If a gun were to my head, I'd prolly favor '78 Stinks to edge '83 Frazier..... Why? Cuz Frazier was iced by Holmes at the time..... Frazier had potential, but still was very green, as was '78 Stinks....... But Leon Stinks was gaining lotsa' ground with them 30 rds fought against a slipping Ali......

NOW! '85 Frazier easily out-boxes '78 Stinks in my book.............

Good match-up......

MR.BILL

[mr. magoo]

If a gun were to my head, I'd prolly favor '78 Stinks to edge '83 Frazier..... Why? Cuz Frazier was iced by Holmes at the time..... Frazier had potential, but still was very green, as was '78 Stinks....... But Leon Stinks was gaining lotsa' ground with them 30 rds fought against a slipping Ali......

NOW! '85 Frazier easily out-boxes '78 Stinks in my book.............

Good match-up......

MR.BILL


I think you basically hit the key point on the head with this post.. Leon may very well have taken an '83 Frazier, but Marvis did not peak until a couple of years later, whereas I am not so sure that Spinks ever improved after 1978... He had an okay run in 1980, but he still had very few fights, lived a shaky lifestyle outside the ring, and couldn't get the job done against journeyman Eddie Lopez.. Frankly, I have my doubts about him beating a more developed Marvis Frazier, once he had acquired wins over James Smith, James Tillis, Jose Ribalta and a few others..... On a sidenote, Tyson being only 19-20 years of age and dusting Marvis in only 30 seconds is a very underrated and probably forgotten KO... I'm guessing that it gets over looked due to the fact that Holmes had already beaten him in one round as well.... In all honesty however, Frazier was a vastly improved fighter, and Tyson was still in his pre-title days, whereas Holmes was a 45 fight veteran champion.... And how many 30 second KO's can we think of in heavyweight history, particularly at the world level?

[Sister Sledge]

I'm going with Stinks. Marvis was a better boxer, but he didn't have a top-flight chin. Stinks was a sponge for punishment, and could take anything Marvis could dish out. Stinks was also pretty fast. I'm seeing this fight turning into a slugfest, with Marvis getting bombed out.

[djanders]

Re: Leon Spinks 1978 v Marvis Frazier 1983

I'm going to have to go with Spinks in this one. His experience with Ali gives him the edge, in my opinion.

[MRBILL]

Re: Leon Spinks 1978 v Marvis Frazier 1983

I'm going to have to go with Spinks in this one. His experience with Ali gives him the edge, in my opinion.

Much agreed.:deal

MR.BILL

[The Kurgan]

And how many 30 second KO's can we think of in heavyweight history, particularly at the world level?

Not many, but this is an obvious one-

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- though Ruiz has his own moments-

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[MRBILL]

Off topic........... Tuaman has made an ENTIRE career in kayoing bums, stiffs and tomato cans................ However, Ruiz is no slouch as a fighter, and he was green when he got iced by Tua in '96.....

MR.BILL:thumbsup

[djanders]

Much agreed.:deal

MR.BILL

MRBILL and I agreed on something! Calendar definitely marked! :lol:

[ThinBlack]

This would be a real close one, but I think Leon gets the nod over Marvis by SD, the advantage being he did win in the big time, albeit against a faded Ali.