Smitty Son's Top 20 All Time Fighters List *Forgive the Length*

[smitty_son408]

Heres my 1st effort at compiling such a list. I've been working on a Top 50, but it seemed to have become futile after getting close to 30 or so. Here's my best effort at my Top 20, but for some reason I can't separate the # 1's for either Sugar are Greb.


1a. Ray Robinson
Dominated the Welterweight & Middleweight divisions defeating the likes of Tommy Bell x2, Kid Gavilan x2, Fritzie Zivic x2, Sammy Angott x3, Henry Armstrong, Jake LaMotta x5, Randy Turpin, Bobo Olsen, Rocky Graziano, Gene Fullmer, and Carmen Basillio. Arguably the most complete fighting machine to ever grace the ring, truly ahead of his time. It's tough not putting him at the #1 spot.
[Only registered and activated users can see links](May3_1921).jpg
1b. Harry Greb
If its anyone who has a more rightful claim to #1 its this man. Created the greatest resume EVER with Fights from 147 all the way to Heavy with titles at both 160 and 175. The 1st and only man to defeat the great Gene Tunney. Arguably the greatest 160lb'er ever with wins over the likes of Tiger Flowers x2, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker, Tommy Loughran x4, Tommy Gibbons x2, multiple wins over Battling Levinskey and Soldier Bartfield.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
2. Sam Langford
The Boston Tar Baby was far more talented than he may have led on. He conviently would carry fighters and sometimes throw them in efforts to receive return bouts. P4P arguably the hardest hitter of all time, being undersized he consistently went up against the giants slaying almost 130 of his 214 opponents. Working his way from 135 to Heavy he gained wins over Sammy McVey, Harry Wills, Kid Norfolk, Gunboat Smith, Philly Jack O'brien, Stanley Ketchel, Joe Jeanette, and Joe Gans.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
3. Henry Armstrong
A juggernaut, a fierce beast, a force of nature....the Hurricane would go on to be arguably the most accomplished boxer in the sports history. The 1st and only boxer to hold 3 titles AT THE SAME TIME (126, 135, 147) and was reportedly robbed for his 4th at 160 with wins over Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, Petey Sarron. He also had a very overlooked Featherweight resume with wins over Baby Arzemendi, Chalkey Wright, Benny Bass, and Lew Massey. He would defend his 147lb title several times after gaining wins over Willie Joyce, Fritzie Zivic, and Sammy Angott.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
4. Bob Fitzsimmons
Arguably the most dominate Middleweight of all time and figure at the point in time in boxing. He would terrorize the sport from 160-Heavyweight. Winning titles at LightHeavy, Heavy, and Middleweight he would gain wins over the likes of James Corbett, Peter Maher, Jack Dempsey, and George Gardiner.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
5. Ezzard Charles
As their any other boxer who can be considered an all time great in 3 divisions? Dominating the Middleweight division with wins over Ken Overlin and Charley Burley he would go on to become the greatest light heavyweight of all time gaining wins over Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, and Oakland Billy Smith. Also became a very accomplished Heavyweight with wins over Elmer Ray, Jersey Joe Walcott, Rex Layne, Bob Satterfield, and champion Joe Louis.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
6. Willie Pep
The greatest 'Boxer' of all time. Poetry in motion, Pep seemed to float around the ring bewildering opponents who couldn't seem to lay a hand of Pep. As most of his footage shows him after the plane crash, I shiver at the thought of how he looked in the ring before:shock:. The greatest feather weight of all time, he amassed wins over Spider Armstrong, Chalky Wright x5, Willie Joyce, Manuel Ortiz, Phil Terranova, Eddie Compo, Ray Femechon, and Sandy Saddler.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
7. Benny Leonard
Leonard would become the face of the greatest lightweight era of all time, displaying some of the best boxing skills ever seen in the ring. He would dominate the division in arguably the greatest reign of any champion in history with wins over Johnny Kilbane, Rocky Kansas, Freddie Welsh, Jack Britton, Willie Ritchie, Johnny Dundee, Soldier Bartfield, and Lew Tendler x2.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
8. Roberto Duran
The most fierce fighting machine ever to step foot in the ring. Duran was simply born to be a fighter. Almost unheard for a man to fight on for 3 decades amassing over 100 wins. Arguably the greatest lightweight of all time he dominated the division for almost 7 years after his destruction of the great Ken Buchanon gaining wins over Hiroshi Kobayashi, ernesto marcel, Esteban DeJesus x2, and Ray Lampkin. His greatest achievements however came after his terrific lightweight reign, defeated Carlos Palomino, and Ray Leonard in arguably the greatest fight of all time and what is mostly considered the greatest win of all time. He would continue to shock observers who considered him finished by winning titles at 154 and 160 with incredible wins over Davey Moore and Iran Barkley.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
9. Mickey Walker
The Toy Bulldog would go on to dominate all the way from 147-Heavyweight. Facing some of the most fierce competition over 4 divisons and he go at each opponent head on with wins over Lew Tendler, Mike McTigue, Tiger Flowers, Soldier Bartfield, Leo Lomski, Bearcat Wright, and
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
10. Muhammad Ali
THE GREATEST!!! Yes, he was. When Ali bought home the Gold in the Olympics you knew their was something special about the kid. With brash arrogance, bravado, and charm he became the face of Boxing and the Heavyweight division for the next 3 decades. The media didn't know what to make of this loud mouthed braggard, so they gave him the name of the Louisville Lip on his path to meeting Liston for the title. With wins over Archie Moore, Doug Jones, and Henry Cooper he receive his opportunity and from that point on the legend was born. Harassing Liston on several occassions and even being bold enough to predict the rounds Liston and many others simply thought Ali was a loony. But his predictions would prove correct as he would go on to 'Shock the World' forcing Liston to quit on his stool after 7 rounds. Ali would defend the title 9 times against quality opposition of the likes of Floyd Patterson Sonny Liston, Brian London, Karl Mildenberger, Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrel, and Zora Folley before being stripped of title. Making his comeback he certify his greatness by beating the likes of Quarry, Bonavena, Joe Frazier x2, Mac Foster, Buster Mathis, Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers, Ken Norton, Bob Foster, Leon Spinks,and George Forman.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[smitty_son408]

11. Barney Ross
Simply a superb fighter, poetry in motion. One of the true great boxer punchers and the best Junior Welterweight/Welterweight of his era. Winning titles at 135, 140, and 147 he gained wins over the likes of Tony Canzoneri x2, Billy Petrolle, Jimmy McLarnin x2, Frankie Klick, Henry Woods, Ceferino Garcia x3, and Chuck Woods x2.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
12. Archie Moore
The most avoided man in boxing history he literally had to beg for title shot for years, but their was no question he was the best. The only man willing to go within a mile of the Murderers Row, he would come up the hard way gaining victories over Shorty Hogue, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams, Bert Lytell, Jimmy Bivins, Bob Satterfileld, Oakland Billy Smith, and Harold Johnson before finally getting his shot against Joey Maxim for the 175lb title. He would fight on and on amassing the most KO's in the sports history and one of it's most impressive records.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
13. Ray Leonard
With a smile and personality that could win over anyone it was apparent from the get go of who would be the replacement of Ali who had been the face of the sport for so long. With blinding speed and devastating combinations he would dominate the Olympics and go on to gain the popularity and respect that hasn't been seen since his time. With arguably the most complete skill set of any boxer ever he would dominate the Welterweight class with memorable fights defeating Wilfred Benitez for the title before losing it and gaining it back against Roberto Duran. He would then unify the titles against the legendary Tommy Hearns before retiring from the sport. He would then make a historical comeback by defeated Marvin Hagler for the undisputed Middleweight crown.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
14. Joe Gans
The Old Master describes him perfectly. Compiled the most impressive record in the divisons history and is also considered one of the sports P4P hardest punchers.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
15. Charley Burley
Arguably the most naturally talented and skilled fighter to ever pick up a pair of gloves and the best the feared Murderer's Row had to offer. Often avoided he would consistently face quality opposition and men bigger than himself. Though he never got an opportunity for a title he would still go to gain one of the best resumes of all time with wins over Fritzie Zivic, Cocoa Kid, Billy Soose, Shorty Hogue, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Archie Moore, Joe Carter, Bert Lytell, and Oakland Billy Smith.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
16. Pernell Whitaker
One of the most accomplished and polished Amateurs of all time Whitaker would dominate the Olympics with the best team ever assembled. He then would go on to display some of the best boxing skills of the era. Using the "tight rope" technique he would show off the best defensive skills of all time while also displaying incredible offensive efficiency using the jab as his primary weapon to control the distance and rhythm of the fight. He would unify the 135 titles with wins over Greg Haugen, Louie Lomeli, Jose Luis Ramirez, Freddie Pendelton, Azumah Nelson, Jorge Paez and Juan Nazario. He would then go on to win titles in 3 more divisions with wins over Buddy McGirt x2, Harold Brazier, Rafael Pineda, Julio Caesar Vasquez, Wilfredo Rivera, Diosbelys Hurtado, and controversial Draw (WIN) over Julio Caesar Chavez. His performance while past his prime against De la Hoya only solidified his greatness.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
17. Joe Louis
Arguably the greatest Heavyweight of time and the most prominent figure in the sports history in time where African Americans needed it the most. Joe Louis would go on to have what some believe the best reign in title history but unarguably the greatest in it's divsions. With wins over Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, and Jim Braddock he would amass 25 defenses with his Tommy Farr, historical rematch against Max Schmeling, Buddy Baer, Billy Conn, and Jersey Joe Walcott.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
18. Gene Tunney
Gene Tunney forged a style built for slaying the giants. Displaying a unique safety 1st conservative style that allowed him to defeat the likes of Harry Greb, Jack Dempsey x2, Tommy Gibbons, Tommy Loughran, and Jim Delaney winning titles at both 175 and Heavy.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
19. Tommy Loughran
The Phantom of Philly would become won of the central figures in the Light Heavyweight division with his win over Mike McTigue in 1923. He would go on to gain wins over the likes of Harry Greb, Pete Latzo, Young Stribling, Leo Lomski, Mickey Walker, and Jim Braddock. Also holds wins over Heavy's Jack Sharkey and Max Baer.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
20. Sandy Saddler
Their many who feel Saddler was the greatest 126lb'er of all time, even better than Pep himself who he defeated 3 out of 4 bouts. One of the P4P hardest hitters he dominated the Featherweight divisions giving his opponents nightmares with his rugged spoiling style and even added the 130 lb title to his resume. Wins over Flash Elorde, Ray Femechon, Pep x3, Tommy Collins, Diego Sosa, Charley Riley, Alfedo Esobar, Leroy Willis, and Miguel Acevedo.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[McGrain]

Superb list.

[smitty_son408]

Won't be back today but please leave your comments, thanx.

[Stonehands89]

First effort?! Impressive. I think that you have most of the essentials in there.

[GPater11093]

Brilliant list. Really like the placements of Tunney and Whittaker.

[bodhi]

Great list :good but one think I must critizise. Where is Tony Canzoneri? He really, really, really must be on this list. :deal

[ricardoparker93]

Very good list and hard to find fault with... although I feel Fitzimons is too high and I think Ali and Ross should be higher. Other than that very good.

[GPater11093]

Agree with Bodhi on the Canzoneri exclusion, I think probably at the expense of Saddler IMO.

Sorry to be a picky prick, but you couldnt explain your rnaking of Saddler abit further, just never seen him that high and would love to see the reasoning

[Unforgiven]

Brilliant list. :good

The only one there I'm not keen on is Ray Leonard, I find his achievements a bit thin, although I recognize his talent. The other 19 are all reasonable picks.

Is that really Sam Langford in the photo ?

[Boilermaker]

Very good list and hard to find fault with... although I feel Fitzimons is too high and I think Ali and Ross should be higher. Other than that very good.

I am very interested to know on what basis it is, that you think that Fitzy is rated too high. My experience suggests that every time you think you find a weakness with his resume, you look into it, and it is actually a strength. So what is it the only possible reasons are all totally subjective.

I agree with the consensus, a very, very good list and definitely justifiable. While we are all being picky though (and it is a new fandangled theory of mine), isnt it a little difficult to justify Moore ahead of Marciano when both fought in their prime, weighing the same, and Rocky won. I know that Moore was great at the lower weights, but surely this just makes Rocky's own legacy even better. In fact, he has beaten 3 people in your top 20 list (losing to none of them), and being outweighed by two of them when he fought. I think Rocky has an excellent case to make the top 30.

[Stonehands89]

Great list :good but one think I must critizise. Where is Tony Canzoneri? He really, really, really must be on this list. :deal
True.

I also have a bit of a problem with ranking Tunney and Loughren in the top 20. Both of them publically drew the color line.

Both were great, but there status must, in my opinion, suffer because of it.

[burt bienstock]

Smitty-son408,
I hate to make you "shiver",but I saw the"pre crash", Willie Pep.in his fabulous prime..In 1943 I watched Willie Pep against Allie Stolz, a top lightweight,about 8 pounds heavier than Pep...Well Willie won every round of the fight...To see Pep in prime was a revelation to the crowd...Pep was one of a kind,for sure.....Fred Astaire with gloves on...

[Unforgiven]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


I dont think this is the Sam Langford.

i think this is probably one of several boxers who fought under the name "Young Sam Langford".

This is Sam Langford :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Stonehands89]

I dont think this is the Sam Langford.

i think this is probably one of several boxers who fought under the name "Young Sam Langford".

This is Sam Langford :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
The nose is the giveaway for the Boston Terror. It looked like a boot run over by a Model T. The picture originally put up has a normal-looking nose. Sam's was anything but.

[Meast]

I think that's one of the young Sam Langfords....that picture is much too recent.

Still though, a excellent list. Nice to see a little written about each fighter to back up your list too.

[Mendoza]

Very good. I do think Charles is a tad high, and Loughran should not make the cut in the top 20, but outside of that I pretty much agree.

[PetethePrince]

Top notch list. One of the best lists, if not the best list I've ever seen.

[WhataRock]

Great list smitty...interesting call with Fitz, I like it.

[Dempsey1238]

Tunney and Loughran are 2 high imo.

No that ant Sam Langford.

Or least not THEE Sam Langford.

[burt bienstock]

That picture is not THE immortal Sam Langford , but probably a namesake ,as noted with the initials SL on his trunks...I have seen this picture before, but forgot where....

[Drew101]

For a first effort, that is an absoluetly wonderful list. Pretty much evevryone who should be on the list is on the list, and though I might dispute a few of the placements, and assume a margin of error of a few spots, on the whole that's an amazing effort

[Seamus]

That aint Sam Langford in the picture but that is a superb, well-thought list (even if RRL is too high). Bravo! Well done.

[asero]

bias against modern fighters

Hagler was p4p king for almost 5 years
Armstrong suffered big losses in his prime while pac has yet to lose big fights in his prime. It is criminal to rank armstrong 20 spots above pacquiao

Monzon is easily top 20. There is no way you can ranked saddler over arguello

[Meast]

bias against modern fighters


Armstrong suffered big losses in his prime while pac has yet to lose big fights in his prime. It is criminal to rank armstrong 20 spots above pacquiao


I could spend a whole day explaining why Armstrong is where he is, and much higher that Pacquiao but....there's really no points with you.

[Boxed Ears]

bias against modern fighters

Hagler was p4p king for almost 5 years
Armstrong suffered big losses in his prime while pac has yet to lose big fights in his prime. It is criminal to rank armstrong 20 spots above pacquiao

Monzon is easily top 20. There is no way you can ranked saddler over arguello

Asero, man, it's criminal to think it's criminal he's ranked far above Pacquiao.

[asero]

armstrong may have accomplished more but please not 20 spots higher

[turpinr]

charles should be above ruby bob and tunney shouldn't be anywhere near it.

[Boxed Ears]

armstrong may have accomplished more but please not 20 spots higher

But see, Armstrong has as good a claim as any man who ever laced them up to be called the number 1. He's gonna be well above Pac probably no matter what. The claim that Pac never lost in his prime...He's not done fighting yet for starters on that argument. Nobody on his recent streak can say that he's even begun to slide for certain. So, we can't conclude he won't lose in his prime if you're that invested in that part of your argument.

[janitor]

A good list.

I think better of the Tommy Loughran call than some here do.

Some fighters I would have liked to have seen considered are George Dixon, Barbados Joe Walcott, Terry McGovern and a few others.

[janitor]

Hagler was p4p king for almost 5 years

Monzon is easily top 20. There is no way you can ranked saddler over arguello

If you are right on these calls then George Dixon and Panama Al Brown would both have a good case.

[asero]

But see, Armstrong has as good a claim as any man who ever laced them up to be called the number 1. He's gonna be well above Pac probably no matter what. The claim that Pac never lost in his prime...He's not done fighting yet for starters on that argument. Nobody on his recent streak can say that he's even begun to slide for certain. So, we can't conclude he won't lose in his prime if you're that invested in that part of your argument.


if pac retires now, it is unfair to rank armstrong 20 spots higher than pacquiao.

Armstrong was beaten by ambers a year after his peak. Pac was the only flyweight champion to be world rated past 126 pounds

[Meast]

if pac retires now, it is unfair to rank armstrong 20 spots higher than pacquiao.

Armstrong was beaten by ambers a year after his peak. Pac was the only flyweight champion to be world rated past 126 pounds


Yeah lets just forget everything else Armstrong did and bring up his loss to Ambers.


Ignorance at its best.

[Boxed Ears]

if pac retires now, it is unfair to rank armstrong 20 spots higher than pacquiao.

Armstrong was beaten by ambers a year after his peak. Pac was the only flyweight champion to be world rated past 126 pounds

Asero...you exhaust people who want to tell you all the reasons you're backwards. :lol:

[asero]

If you are right on these calls then George Dixon and Panama Al Brown would both have a good case.

hagler never had a clear lost in his prime. Not sure with those two

[Boilermaker]

charles should be above rudy bob.

Why?

Is it because he won more Lightweight Titles?
Is it because he reigned longer as a middleweight?
Is it because he reigned longer as a Light-heavyweight?
Is it because he reigned longer and beat more top heavyweight contenders?
Is it because he was considered the undisputed pound for pound king for longer?
Is it because he scored more KOs as a champion?
Is is because he gave up more weight to his opponents?
Is it because he went longer without losing a fight?
Is it because he was not knocked out as many times?
Is it because he fought more fights and had more wins?
Is it because he was naturally smaller than Ruby Rob?

Because if it is any of those, i think you might have got a bit mixed up. So, What factor is it that suggests that Ezzard should be put above Ruby Rob?

[turpinr]

Why?

Is it because he won more Lightweight Titles?
Is it because he reigned longer as a middleweight?
Is it because he reigned longer as a Light-heavyweight?
Is it because he reigned longer and beat more top heavyweight contenders?
Is it because he was considered the undisputed pound for pound king for longer?
Is it because he scored more KOs as a champion?
Is is because he gave up more weight to his opponents?
Is it because he went longer without losing a fight?
Is it because he was not knocked out as many times?
Is it because he fought more fights and had more wins?
Is it because he was naturally smaller than Ruby Rob?

Because if it is any of those, i think you might have got a bit mixed up. So, What factor is it that suggests that Ezzard should be put above Ruby Rob?put the two of them in the ring at whatever weight you want.charles wins

[Boilermaker]

put the two of them in the ring at whatever weight you want.charles wins

Lightweight?

[turpinr]

Lightweight?lightweight ????????

[Boilermaker]

Well Fitz was the New Zealand Lightweight title, at a time when this was probably as strong a title as existed. And he won the New Zealand middleweight title just a few months later (presumably he was still at or near the lightweight limit). He was younger at this time, but i cant imagine another lightweight of the time beating him. All of his known lightweight fights ended by KO.

So, you dont think Ezzard is going to survive against Bob at lightweight? I am guessing then that Welterweight is out?

You want to go for Middleweight. Charles fought 4 middleweight opponents including Kid Tunero, who beat him!. Hardly confidence inspiring

What about Supermiddleweight (the highest Fitz ever weighed). Charles was down against Overlin, Bivins (7 times), Marshall (8 times) and apparently nearly knocked out by Basora. Fitz knocked out every middleweight opponent he faced, not to mention all the top heavyweights and lightheavyweights in the world that were around. Are you really going to back someone who has been knocked down so often by the middleweights he faced against the biggest hitting middleweight in history?

[Bill Butcher]

Where`s Erik Morales at ? :huh

Nah... very good attempt :good

[turpinr]

Well Fitz was the New Zealand Lightweight title, at a time when this was probably as strong a title as existed. And he won the New Zealand middleweight title just a few months later (presumably he was still at or near the lightweight limit). He was younger at this time, but i cant imagine another lightweight of the time beating him. All of his known lightweight fights ended by KO.

So, you dont think Ezzard is going to survive against Bob at lightweight? I am guessing then that Welterweight is out?

You want to go for Middleweight. Charles fought 4 middleweight opponents including Kid Tunero, who beat him!. Hardly confidence inspiring

What about Supermiddleweight (the highest Fitz ever weighed). Charles was down against Overlin, Bivins (7 times), Marshall (8 times) and apparently nearly knocked out by Basora. Fitz knocked out every middleweight opponent he faced, not to mention all the top heavyweights and lightheavyweights in the world that were around. Are you really going to back someone who has been knocked down so often by the middleweights he faced against the biggest hitting middleweight in history?yes i'd back charles against fitzsimmons and jeffries too.

[burt bienstock]

Poor Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey...Joe Louis #17...How fans soon forget how destructive he was in his UNBEATABLE prime...Love Ezzard Charles, but Louis would have beaten Charles certainly in their primes for sure..All the great boxing writers of the 1940s would have made Louis 3/1favorite over Charles, both in their primes...As for Dempsey,modern fans have the image of the past prime Dempsey of Tunney days only....Conveniently overlooking the prime pre films man killer of Willard and before..Shame...Evidently,all Dempsey's victims suffered heart attacks, instead of fistic attacks, when they were ko'd quickly at Dempsey,s peak...One more oversight...The great "Barbados dEMON," Joe Walcott, should have been included over many others,so great he was against much,much larger opponents,sadly forgotten today...Otherwise a fine difficult list by Smitty....

[Unforgiven]

Poor Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey...Joe Louis #17...How fans soon forget how destructive he was in his UNBEATABLE prime...Love Ezzard Charles, but Louis would have beaten Charles certainly in their primes for sure..All the great boxing writers of the 1940s would have made Louis 3/1favorite over Charles, both in their primes...As for Dempsey,modern fans have the image of the past prime Dempsey of Tunney days only....Conveniently overlooking the prime pre films man killer of Willard and before..Shame...Evidently,all Dempsey's victims suffered heart attacks, instead of fistic attacks, when they were ko'd quickly at Dempsey,s peak...One more oversight...The great "Barbados dEMON," Joe Walcott, should have been included over many others,so great he was against much,much larger opponents,sadly forgotten today...Otherwise a fine difficult list by Smitty....

I agree with you.

Joe Louis gets a bad rap on these lists. He's very underrated, because his opposition is very underrated. He had the best reign of any champion at any weight, in my opinion. He took on all-comers, gave out rematches, and knocked almost everyone out.

Dempsey was considered one of the greatest by everyone up until the last 20 or 30 years, and now he's criminally underrated. Admittedly, he was relatively inactive in his championship prime, but so was Ray Leonard who seemed to be retired every few months, and absent for years on end. I think Dempsey was greater than Ray Leonard.

[Boilermaker]

yes i'd back charles against fitzsimmons and jeffries too.
Would you back Kid Tunero also?

[turpinr]

Would you back Kid Tunero also?i'd back the milky bar kid against jeffries.a caveman

[Ezzard]

High quality list.

And Saddler should be on it.

[turpinr]

High quality list.

And Saddler should be on it.:good

[janitor]

i'd back the milky bar kid against jeffries.a caveman

Well its good to see that you aproach fantasy matchups involving Jeffries with an open mind.

[smitty_son408]

Thanks everyone for the replies, I know their some disagreements so I'll go through the thread accordingly and ask any questions you may have.

[smitty_son408]

Great list :good but one think I must critizise. Where is Tony Canzoneri? He really, really, really must be on this list. :deal

I think the last time I worked on the list he comes in at 21 or 22. He was a fabulous featherweight and though he took loses when he moved up, he went on to convincingly win in return bouts (except Ross & Jadick). It was tough, but I'm confident with the picks I have ahead of him.

[smitty_son408]

Agree with Bodhi on the Canzoneri exclusion, I think probably at the expense of Saddler IMO.

Sorry to be a picky prick, but you couldnt explain your rnaking of Saddler abit further, just never seen him that high and would love to see the reasoning

Next to Pep he was the most dominate featherweight in a dominate featherweight era. Say what you will but he beat Pep 3 out of 4. No matter what some try to downplay it as "he wasn't the same after the crash" or "he was past his best", but he clearly separated himself from a man who is a top 5 fighter of all time. That's a hell of an achievement in my book.

[smitty_son408]

I dont think this is the Sam Langford.

i think this is probably one of several boxers who fought under the name "Young Sam Langford".

This is Sam Langford :

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Thank you for posting the real pic, I'll post it in the title.:good

[Minotauro]

I have Walcott as a lock top 20. Out of interest where do you rate Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall in comparison to Burley.

[smitty_son408]

I have Walcott as a lock top 20. Out of interest where do you rate Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall in comparison to Burley.

All 3 fall within the Top 30...

[bodhi]

armstrong may have accomplished more but please not 20 spots higher

You are right, I'd have him nearly 30 spots higher :good

[smitty_son408]

You are right, I'd have him nearly 30 spots higher :good

:lol:

[bodhi]

I think the last time I worked on the list he comes in at 21 or 22. He was a fabulous featherweight and though he took loses when he moved up, he went on to convincingly win in return bouts (except Ross & Jadick). It was tough, but I'm confident with the picks I have ahead of him.

Hm, there are people whio think he won at least one against Ross, at the very least the fights were close. And he was although a great lw and, jww. I have him Top15. But hey it's your list and as long as you at least thought about him it's good :good

[smitty_son408]

You are right, I'd have him nearly 30 spots higher :good

Frankly, its not a crime to have them 40 spots apart in all honesty.

[GPater11093]

Next to Pep he was the most dominate featherweight in a dominate featherweight era. Say what you will but he beat Pep 3 out of 4. No matter what some try to downplay it as "he wasn't the same after the crash" or "he was past his best", but he clearly separated himself from a man who is a top 5 fighter of all time. That's a hell of an achievement in my book.

Fair enough, Im just not that sold on Saddler

[Boilermaker]

I have Walcott as a lock top 20. Out of interest where do you rate Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall in comparison to Burley.

To be honest, i dont think Walcott has that good an argument to make top 20. If he does make it, he must be ranked below Rocky Marciano, because he was beaten twice by rocky, his record wasnt as good as Rockys and he was naturally bigger than Rocky. I know lots of people do rate him top 20, but i really think he wouldnt even necessarilly be guaranteed to make the top 20 p4p heavyweights.

[EleventhHour]

This is an excellent, excellent list.

[ricardinho]

armstrong may have accomplished more but please not 20 spots higher

I have noticed that your rankings are always similar to boxrec.

I got you to change your avatar once don't make me do it again.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[box101]

very high quality well thought out love the explanation doesnt sound like copied straight from book if one person i feel missing it would be julio cesar chavez

[ricardinho]

I think when it comes to a list like this you really can't argue about where a guy places... its more about who is not included and I really don't have any problems with who was left off.

[Rise Above]

if pac retires now, it is unfair to rank armstrong 20 spots higher than pacquiao.

Armstrong was beaten by ambers a year after his peak. Pac was the only flyweight champion to be world rated past 126 pounds

haha I have seen most of the Armstrong Ambers second fight and let me tell you the only reason Ambers won was due to the referee.

[Rise Above]

To be honest, i dont think Walcott has that good an argument to make top 20. If he does make it, he must be ranked below Rocky Marciano, because he was beaten twice by rocky, his record wasnt as good as Rockys and he was naturally bigger than Rocky. I know lots of people do rate him top 20, but i really think he wouldnt even necessarilly be guaranteed to make the top 20 p4p heavyweights.


I think he may have been talking about the Barbados Joe Walcott. Not quite sure though.

[bodhi]

I think he may have been talking about the Barbados Joe Walcott. Not quite sure though.

I´m very sure he was talking about the original Joe Walcott.

[turpinr]

Well its good to see that you aproach fantasy matchups involving Jeffries with an open mind.open or not he's still a caveman

[Fedor Em]

Very nice list. I have Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, and Langford in my top 4 in that order but I have been thinking about moving Langford to #3 on my list as well for sometime.

I still don't see how Ruby can be ranked so high. He was a pioneer but a top 5 ATG?

[Boilermaker]

I´m very sure he was talking about the original Joe Walcott.
Oops:oops:

[Boilermaker]

I still don't see how Ruby can be ranked so high. He was a pioneer but a top 5 ATG?

And i Still havent seen anyone profit a reason for him not ranking so high.

As much as i rank Langford (and he is a great who could easily be no 1) but what is it that makes you so sure that Langford is better than Rubes?

Neither is filmed much. Both were successful from lightweight through to middleweight, though Fitz was much lighter (therefore technically he should have a big advantage in a pound for sense). Both were virtual pioneers and from a very similar era. In fact, Sam Langford was active around the time that Fitz was still the World Light heavyweight champion. It would have actually been interesting to see him defending against a lighter Langford. Ironically, the fight would never have been made, because Langford would not have been seen as a viable challenger.

[asero]

steward already has pac in his top 10,, Finally, he is enlightened

[smitty_son408]

haha I have seen most of the Armstrong Ambers second fight and let me tell you the only reason Ambers won was due to the referee.

Not on youtube by any chance is it???

[mcvey]

11. Barney Ross
Simply a superb fighter, poetry in motion. One of the true great boxer punchers and the best Junior Welterweight/Welterweight of his era. Winning titles at 135, 140, and 147 he gained wins over the likes of Tony Canzoneri x2, Billy Petrolle, Jimmy McLarnin x2, Frankie Klick, Henry Woods, Ceferino Garcia x3, and Chuck Woods x2.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
12. Archie Moore
The most avoided man in boxing history he literally had to beg for title shot for years, but their was no question he was the best. The only man willing to go within a mile of the Murderers Row, he would come up the hard way gaining victories over Shorty Hogue, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams, Bert Lytell, Jimmy Bivins, Bob Satterfileld, Oakland Billy Smith, and Harold Johnson before finally getting his shot against Joey Maxim for the 175lb title. He would fight on and on amassing the most KO's in the sports history and one of it's most impressive records.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
13. Ray Leonard
With a smile and personality that could win over anyone it was apparent from the get go of who would be the replacement of Ali who had been the face of the sport for so long. With blinding speed and devastating combinations he would dominate the Olympics and go on to gain the popularity and respect that hasn't been seen since his time. With arguably the most complete skill set of any boxer ever he would dominate the Welterweight class with memorable fights defeating Wilfred Benitez for the title before losing it and gaining it back against Roberto Duran. He would then unify the titles against the legendary Tommy Hearns before retiring from the sport. He would then make a historical comeback by defeated Marvin Hagler for the undisputed Middleweight crown.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
14. Joe Gans
The Old Master describes him perfectly. Compiled the most impressive record in the divisons history and is also considered one of the sports P4P hardest punchers.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
15. Charley Burley
Arguably the most naturally talented and skilled fighter to ever pick up a pair of gloves and the best the feared Murderer's Row had to offer. Often avoided he would consistently face quality opposition and men bigger than himself. Though he never got an opportunity for a title he would still go to gain one of the best resumes of all time with wins over Fritzie Zivic, Cocoa Kid, Billy Soose, Shorty Hogue, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Archie Moore, Joe Carter, Bert Lytell, and Oakland Billy Smith.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
16. Pernell Whitaker
One of the most accomplished and polished Amateurs of all time Whitaker would dominate the Olympics with the best team ever assembled. He then would go on to display some of the best boxing skills of the era. Using the "tight rope" technique he would show off the best defensive skills of all time while also displaying incredible offensive efficiency using the jab as his primary weapon to control the distance and rhythm of the fight. He would unify the 135 titles with wins over Greg Haugen, Louie Lomeli, Jose Luis Ramirez, Freddie Pendelton, Azumah Nelson, Jorge Paez and Juan Nazario. He would then go on to win titles in 3 more divisions with wins over Buddy McGirt x2, Harold Brazier, Rafael Pineda, Julio Caesar Vasquez, Wilfredo Rivera, Diosbelys Hurtado, and controversial Draw (WIN) over Julio Caesar Chavez. His performance while past his prime against De la Hoya only solidified his greatness.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
17. Joe Louis
Arguably the greatest Heavyweight of time and the most prominent figure in the sports history in time where African Americans needed it the most. Joe Louis would go on to have what some believe the best reign in title history but unarguably the greatest in it's divsions. With wins over Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, and Jim Braddock he would amass 25 defenses with his Tommy Farr, historical rematch against Max Schmeling, Buddy Baer, Billy Conn, and Jersey Joe Walcott.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
18. Gene Tunney
Gene Tunney forged a style built for slaying the giants. Displaying a unique safety 1st conservative style that allowed him to defeat the likes of Harry Greb, Jack Dempsey x2, Tommy Gibbons, Tommy Loughran, and Jim Delaney winning titles at both 175 and Heavy.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
19. Tommy Loughran
The Phantom of Philly would become won of the central figures in the Light Heavyweight division with his win over Mike McTigue in 1923. He would go on to gain wins over the likes of Harry Greb, Pete Latzo, Young Stribling, Leo Lomski, Mickey Walker, and Jim Braddock. Also holds wins over Heavy's Jack Sharkey and Max Baer.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
20. Sandy Saddler
Their many who feel Saddler was the greatest 126lb'er of all time, even better than Pep himself who he defeated 3 out of 4 bouts. One of the P4P hardest hitters he dominated the Featherweight divisions giving his opponents nightmares with his rugged spoiling style and even added the 130 lb title to his resume. Wins over Flash Elorde, Ray Femechon, Pep x3, Tommy Collins, Diego Sosa, Charley Riley, Alfedo Esobar, Leroy Willis, and Miguel Acevedo.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Very solid rankings :good

[bodhi]

steward already has pac in his top 10,, Finally, he is enlightened

Well, I think Stewart ranks Hearns in his Top5, tells you how much it's worth :good

[Fedor Em]

And i Still havent seen anyone profit a reason for him not ranking so high.

As much as i rank Langford (and he is a great who could easily be no 1) but what is it that makes you so sure that Langford is better than Rubes?

Neither is filmed much. Both were successful from lightweight through to middleweight, though Fitz was much lighter (therefore technically he should have a big advantage in a pound for sense). Both were virtual pioneers and from a very similar era. In fact, Sam Langford was active around the time that Fitz was still the World Light heavyweight champion. It would have actually been interesting to see him defending against a lighter Langford. Ironically, the fight would never have been made, because Langford would not have been seen as a viable challenger.

I think sheer activity is what seperates them. Also when you look at Greb, Robinson, Charles, Langford and Armstrong do you think Fitzsimmons has as many great wins on his resmue as those 5?

Bob was very dominant though. Nearly flawless for over a decade. Who could punch like him? Jefferies said he Corbett was the best boxer but Ruby was the best fighter he ever got in the ring with. I was grossly underrating him before and would have him in my top 15 now. I could see top 10 but top 5 might be a stretch.

[Boilermaker]

I think sheer activity is what seperates them. Also when you look at Greb, Robinson, Charles, Langford and Armstrong do you think Fitzsimmons has as many great wins on his resmue as those 5?

Bob was very dominant though. Nearly flawless for over a decade. Who could punch like him? Jefferies said he Corbett was the best boxer but Ruby was the best fighter he ever got in the ring with. I was grossly underrating him before and would have him in my top 15 now. I could see top 10 but top 5 might be a stretch.

Fitz record is not completely known. He claims well over 300 prize fights. That sort of activity is well on par with the guys you quoted. Maybe better. He even fought several fighters on the same night, and often one day after the other. Did any of the five you listed do that? Activity is easy to measure and he stacks up with these guys. Fitzsimmons had pretty much as many fights as Greb who leads the claims of these 5 (who are all great and shouldnt be denigrated by the comparisons i make).

What about dominance. NOrmally Sugar Ray Leonard is the king of Kings on this level. Recently on this very site, he scored a virtual shutout in a pole of greatest welterweights ever. An astonishing dominance and probably a correct call by our posters. But compare his welterweight reign to Fitzys middleweight one. Ray Leonard had close points decisions, even controversial or unpopular decisions, in fact he even lost fights on some judges scorecards. And he did lose a fight to middleweight Jake Lamotta. Fitzy on the other hand, absolutely dominated all his opposition and one virtually every fight by knockout against the best opposition of his time, usually within the first four rounds. And when he went up in weight, he didnt just go up one division, he went all the way to heavyweight, and he knocked out all the top contenders. The closest he fought to Jake Lamotta (Tom Sharkey) had a Lamotta like chin, but at heavyweight! Fitz knocked him cold twice!

Henry Armstrong is a great fighter. He could leave the pack, as he is the only person to hold three original weight division titles at the one time. Simply astonishing and technically correct. Fitzy cant compete with this, Can he? Well let us not forget that Fitzy himself held every single title from middleweight to heavyweight, when he (as middleweight) knocked out the legendary Jim Corbett. That is a feat that no one has done ever, and the weight span from middleweight to heavyweight is far greater than the span of Armstrong's title. Technically Fitzy was robbed from holding three titles, for the simple reason that the light heavyweight title hadnt been invented yet! If anyone other than Fitzy had a claim to this (and Fitzy did win it at his first try when well past his best) it was JOe Choynski. Fitzy had already knocked him out cold. Clearly Fitzys accomplishments are every bit as impressive as Armstrongs, and then some.

You mentioned Sam Langford. He was definitely a great. His main claim is not only that he had the great number of fights (that Fitzy matched), but that he fought from Lightweight to Heavyweight. Well, guess what, so did Fitzy. And unlike Langford, Fitzy did fight the world Champions in each division on the way through (that existed during his time) and knocked them out. Langford only managed to fight Johnson and lost. Ok there were reasons but the reality is he didnt do what Fitz did. And while his wins against Wills, McVey and Jeanette and other leading heavy contenders are very impressive, it seems to be forgotten that Langford weight a lot more than Fitz ever did when he fought these guys, and he certainly didnt shut them out like Fitz did to all the top heavy contenders that Fitz fought. Much is made of Langford being to small to beat Jack Johnson when they fought. Well it didnt seem to stop Fitz when he fought Corbett (who was similar to Johnson) and the other top heavys. As good as Sam is, Fitz has him covered in his strongest point, also.

The last fighter you mentioned was Ezzard Charles. To be honest, i dont think he can or should be mentioned on the same level as the other guys. And i am not sure what his claim to the no 1 position (if any) is. Charles was beaten by more middleweights than Fitz, Lost more light heavyweight fights than Fitz and his record at heavyweight isnt as good as Fitzy's. I dont see how he could be rated above fitz.

So, if you think about it, not only does Fitz have reasons for being ranked above those 5 fighters, When you look at each of their greatest strengths, Fitz matches them and pretty much did what all five did! In some ways, his record/legacy that he left was those 5 great fighters all rolled in together!

That is a big statement i know, but i havent seen too many believable arguments against it. I know that there is the evolution of the species/sport argument and that is perhaps the best argument against it. But anyone relying it should be aware that if it is relied upon, then none of the five fighters mentioned will be the greatest, but rather the greatest will come from modern times. Perhaps Mayweather or Manny. To be honest, i find this extremely hard to believe.

[burt bienstock]

Boilermaker, I admire your defense ofthe great Ruby Robert. His like we will never see again...A little musical trivia, for what it's worth....When I was a boy A very old uncle of mine [a boxing buff of course] would talk about Fitz, who he saw in person...This old uncle of mine would sing a little ditty about old Fitzimmons...I now remember only a line or two---To the Tune of Tit Willow from The Mikado/ Gilbert and Sullivan...Here goes.. "By the shores of dear Bergen, stands honest old Fitz, With his Wallop, His Wallop, His Wallop------I long ago forgot the rest of the song, but I never forgot the tune...By the way Bergen must be Bergen, NJ where old Fitz trained,so long ago....
P.S. A musical first for ESB...Boilermaker, signing off....B.B.

[The Funny Man 7]

Like others have said, I don't like having Tunney and Loughran in the top twenty, and I would move Joe Gans ahead of Walker personally.

[darthhutchence]

They had boxing before 1964?? oh wait that's not me that's 90% of ESB. Great list!

[anarci]

Chavez should be on that list.

[GPater11093]

Chavez should be on that list.

I dont think he should definitly be on it, for example Canzoneri aint on it either and I would rate Canzoneri higher. He could definitly be considered to be on it and I wouldnt argue with him being on it.

Is there not another Mexican you would consider? :good

[anarci]

I dont think he should definitly be on it, for example Canzoneri aint on it either and I would rate Canzoneri higher. He could definitly be considered to be on it and I wouldnt argue with him being on it.

Is there not another Mexican you would consider? :good YEy Sanchez probably cracks it, and Chavez should be close to 10 although i dont expect most of you to agree with me on that one. Chavez should be no lower than 20 and yey i have him higher than Canzoneri.:yep
Oh you thought i was gonna say Lopez? Na maybe in a HTH i would say he is that great but because of resume he probably barely makes my top 30 or 35.

[GPater11093]

YEy Sanchez probably cracks it, and Chavez should be close to 10 although i dont expect most of you to agree with me on that one. Chavez should be no lower than 20 and yey i have him higher than Canzoneri.:yep
Oh you thought i was gonna say Lopez? Na maybe in a HTH i would say he is that great but because of resume he probably barely makes my top 30 or 35.

:lol::lol:

Fair enough Anarci, I think JCC was great so im not arguing too much.

Your more relaistic with Lopez no i see, us young youtube watchers won you round?

[anarci]

:lol::lol:

Fair enough Anarci, I think JCC was great so im not arguing too much.

Your more relaistic with Lopez no i see, us young youtube watchers won you round?No i always had him around the top 30, In fact i still say he beats Changs ass:yep I have Lopez number 3 on my all time Mexican fighter list just a hair above Olivares.

[GPater11093]

No i always had him around the top 30, In fact i still say he beats Changs ass:yep I have Lopez number 3 on my all time Mexican fighter list just a hair above Olivares.

just when I thought you was getting somewhere....

[bodhi]

YEy Sanchez probably cracks it, and Chavez should be close to 10 although i dont expect most of you to agree with me on that one. Chavez should be no lower than 20 and yey i have him higher than Canzoneri.:yep
Oh you thought i was gonna say Lopez? Na maybe in a HTH i would say he is that great but because of resume he probably barely makes my top 30 or 35.


Based on what? :shock:

[anarci]

Based on what? :shock:
Im tired of Posting Chavez superior resume and sticking up for him, ive done this a million times. I think ill pass this time believe me i have my legit reasons. But real quick how many other greats have defended there titles over 30X?

Also watching footage of both guys convinces me Chavez is greater.

[bodhi]

Im tired of Posting Chavez superior resume and sticking up for him, ive done this a million times. I think ill pass this time believe me i have my legit reasons. But real quick how many other greats have defended there titles over 30X?

Also watching footage of both guys convinces me Chavez is greater.

Now I get it you are sarcastic.

[anarci]

Now I get it you are sarcastic. How am i being sarcastic? Im being straight with you i was short and to the point. Also you didnt answer my question how many greats have made over 30 title defenses?

[Minotauro]

To be honest, i dont think Walcott has that good an argument to make top 20. If he does make it, he must be ranked below Rocky Marciano, because he was beaten twice by rocky, his record wasnt as good as Rockys and he was naturally bigger than Rocky. I know lots of people do rate him top 20, but i really think he wouldnt even necessarilly be guaranteed to make the top 20 p4p heavyweights.

Wrong Walcott, I was taling about the former welterweight champ. The Barbados Demon Joe Walcott the orginal.

[anarci]

Wrong Walcott, I was taling about the former welterweight champ. The Barbados Demon Joe Walcott the orginal. I think i would but Barbadoes Joe in my top 20,based on resume and how small he was, never seen him fight though. Probably no footage on him. Am i correct?

[bodhi]

How am i being sarcastic? Im being straight with you i was short and to the point. Also you didnt answer my question how many greats have made over 30 title defenses?

Tell me how Chavez resume is superoir to Canzoneri´s. It isn´t. Chavez defended belts over 30 times, how often defended he championships?

[anarci]

Tell me how Chavez resume is superoir to Canzoneri´s. It isn´t. Chavez defended belts over 30 times, how often defended he championships?
Yes he made over 30 title defenses what part of that dont you understand? If you dont believe it go to boxing records, and im not including his non title fights either. Chavez was a pfp #1 guy for about 5 years in a strong era, Canzoneri cant make that claim.

Dont get me wrong im not in no way trying to dismiss Canzoneri he was definitley an All time great just not as high as Chavez in my book, I rank Canzoneri in the top 25 no lower than 30.

[bodhi]

Yes he made over 30 title defenses what part of that dont you understand? If you dont believe it go to boxing records, and im not including his non title fights either. Chavez was a pfp #1 guy for about 5 years in a strong era, Canzoneri cant make that claim.

Dont get me wrong im not in no way trying to dismiss Canzoneri he was definitley an All time great just not as high as Chavez in my book, I rank Canzoneri in the top 25 no lower than 30.

Chavez made over 30 defences of belts, not championships. There´s a difference. Canzoneri fought in a better era and beat better fighters. There is no disputing that.

[anarci]

Chavez made over 30 defences of belts, not championships. There´s a difference. Canzoneri fought in a better era and beat better fighters. There is no disputing that. Well he did face more ATGs but Chavez resume is pretty good himself didnt beat a number of ATGs but beat a bunch of really good fighters. I guess you can make a case for Canzoneri but personally i rank Chavez higher. IF you feel those fighters were better well agree to disagree they had better resumes but to say they were better fighters HTH is your opinion.
It was a different time but and more belts around in Chavez day but you cant dispute that he was the best fighter in the 3 that he won belts in. he wasnt some paper champ like you seem to insunate.

[bodhi]

Well he did face more ATGs but Chavez resume is pretty good himself didnt beat a number of ATGs but beat a bunch of really good fighters. I guess you can make a case for Canzoneri but personally i rank Chavez higher. IF you feel those fighters were better well agree to disagree they had better resumes but to say they were better fighters HTH is your opinion.
It was a different time but and more belts around in Chavez day but you cant dispute that he was the best fighter in the 3 that he won belts in. he wasnt some paper champ like you seem to insunate.

The argument for Canzoneri is better than that for Chavez and by quite a bit. You say there were more atgs around back in the day but somehow the fighters fo Chavez era were still better? :huh

Well, not always is the best fighter ina division the champ, look at Charles or Jones Jr. And Chavez did not defend championships over 30 times but belts. And there´s a difference.

[OBCboxer]

That list is greatness.

[Dempsey1238]

Chavez did thrive on the alpha era, Canzi didnt get that, so his weight jumping feats should be put into more worth imo.

[TommyV]

armstrong may have accomplished more but please not 20 spots higher

Yeah you're right. At least 30 spots higher.

[anarci]

The argument for Canzoneri is better than that for Chavez and by quite a bit. You say there were more atgs around back in the day but somehow the fighters fo Chavez era were still better? :huh

Well, not always is the best fighter ina division the champ, look at Charles or Jones Jr. And Chavez did not defend championships over 30 times but belts. And there´s a difference. WHat are you talking about? Chavez was the best and the champ at JL,Lw and JW.

Ok i will have to say Canzoneri has a lot of wins over atgs but he also has a lot of losses to guys a prime Chavez would have never have loss to. Yes save the speech about how fighters fought so often and "tougher competition bla bla bla" Bottom line Chavez would have never loss to Andre Routis,split 3 fights with Bud Taylor, losses to Johnny jadick,Sammy Fuller, 1-1 with Al Singer . I am very familiar with all these guys and realize that they were tough guys but Chavez fought some tough guys and never loss in his prime. Some people want to pick apart Chavez early record but bottom line look at Canzoneris at the beginning of his career and those guys werent all that good either.

Watching these 2 fight numerous times, i dont see Canzoneri beating Chavez in a HTH matchup either. Tell me how you think this fight would have played out?

[KTFO]

Epic list. Having said that I expected it being a bit longer.

[manbearpig]

Duran should not be above Ali. No way.

[asero]

Duran should not be above Ali. No way.


true

[asero]

Arguello over saddler anytime

[bodhi]

WHat are you talking about? Chavez was the best and the champ at JL,Lw and JW.

Question: did Chavez defend the championship or belts over 30 times?


Ok i will have to say Canzoneri has a lot of wins over atgs but he also has a lot of losses to guys a prime Chavez would have never have loss to. Yes save the speech about how fighters fought so often and "tougher competition bla bla bla" Bottom line Chavez would have never loss to Andre Routis,split 3 fights with Bud Taylor, losses to Johnny jadick,Sammy Fuller, 1-1 with Al Singer . I am very familiar with all these guys and realize that they were tough guys but Chavez fought some tough guys and never loss in his prime. Some people want to pick apart Chavez early record but bottom line look at Canzoneris at the beginning of his career and those guys werent all that good either.

Canzoneri fought more atgs, more often and ina better era. Of course he loses some. Chavez fought some good fighters but his resume is not comparable to that of Canzoneri.


Watching these 2 fight numerous times, i dont see Canzoneri beating Chavez in a HTH matchup either. Tell me how you think this fight would have played out?

I think Canzoneri would use his judge of distance, evasiveness and counterpunching to beat Chavez at jww. Chavez would outwork him at jlw. At lw it´s a toss up I think.
I don´t factor in h2h when compiling lists though.

[Flea Man]

Duran should not be above Ali. No way.

Yes he should. Big time.

And Canzoneri I have over Chavez by about 20 places.

[anarci]

Question: did Chavez defend the championship or belts over 30 times?
.

In this era its impossible to defend the "Championship" there are different belt holders in every division, bottom line he beat the best guys available, never ducked anyone and was the best in his division, in fact for a number of years he was considered Best in Boxing period! You cant fault him for their being so many belts around, he beat numerous champions and former champions so its the same thing.

[anarci]

Yes he should. Big time.

And Canzoneri I have over Chavez by about 20 places.

GTFOH:patsch

[bodhi]

In this era its impossible to defend the "Championship" there are different belt holders in every division, bottom line he beat the best guys available, never ducked anyone and was the best in his division, in fact for a number of years he was considered Best in Boxing period! You cant fault him for their being so many belts around, he beat numerous champions and former champions so its the same thing.

No, it is not. Beeing the best in your division is not the same as beeing the champ. Ask Roy Jones Jr. While he was the best in the division somebody else was champ and defended this title over ten times. So it is possible.

[anarci]

No, it is not. Beeing the best in your division is not the same as beeing the champ. Ask Roy Jones Jr. While he was the best in the division somebody else was champ and defended this title over ten times. So it is possible. We are not talking about Roy JONES!

IF Chavez wasnt the real champ who was? Who did he duck? He beat just about all the best available competition. Do you remember this?

[WhataRock]

Sorry anarci but you are selling Canzoneri waaaay short here mate.

He is clearly a few spots above Chavez alltime, maybe not 20 or even a dozen but there is a clear enough margin between them...even the mayor of Culican would concede that.

[anarci]

Sorry anarci but you are selling Canzoneri waaaay short here mate.

He is clearly a few spots above Chavez alltime, maybe not 20 or even a dozen but there is a clear enough margin between them...even the mayor of Culican would concede that.

I know a lot of people that would rate Chavez above Canzoneri:yep

But then again being on the classic it shouldnt surprise me for that any of you would rate him higher. I rate Canzoneri high just not as high as Chavez. Have Canzoneri in the top 25

[bodhi]

We are not talking about Roy JONES!

IF Chavez wasnt the real champ who was? Who did he duck? He beat just about all the best available competition. Do you remember this?

Well, Chavez never was the champ at sfw. He beat R. Mayweather who was the champ but after he lost his championship to Lockridge and he beat Lockridge but after Lockridge lost that title to Gomez who Chavez never fought. He may have been the best but he was never the champ.

Chavez was the champ at lw after he beat Rosario but he only defended that title two times before vacating it.

Chavez was the jww champ after he beat Meldrick Taylor, he held that title until he lost it to Randall and then won it back and held it again until he lost it to DLH. He defended it 13 times during that time.

So, overall this are 15 defences of the championship and not over 30 like you claim.

[bodhi]

I know a lot of people that would rate Chavez above Canzoneri:yep

But then again being on the classic it shouldnt surprise me for that any of you would rate him higher. I rate Canzoneri high just not as high as Chavez. Have Canzoneri in the top 25

Which just proves how overated Chavez is. Don´t get me wrong I like him and his style and imo people are wrong when they describe him as a brawler but ranking him as high as you do and above somebody like Canzoneri is overating him.

[anarci]

Well, Chavez never was the champ at sfw. He beat R. Mayweather who was the champ but after he lost his championship to Lockridge and he beat Lockridge but after Lockridge lost that title to Gomez who Chavez never fought. He may have been the best but he was never the champ.

Chavez was the champ at lw after he beat Rosario but he only defended that title two times before vacating it.

Chavez was the jww champ after he beat Meldrick Taylor, he held that title until he lost it to Randall and then won it back and held it again until he lost it to DLH. He defended it 13 times during that time.

So, overall this are 15 defences of the championship and not over 30 like you claim.

Whats with you and your denial with Chavez:huh He beat the two best guys at JL which were Lockridge,Mayweather and a slew of other fighters Martinez,Laporte etc beat the best available, Gomez was badly faded when he got a gift over Lockridge. Chavez would have hurt Gomez and busted him up badly. Rosario was the man at lightweight when Chavez dominated him. You conveniently left out how there was 4 years between Taylor and Randall. If you wanna nit pick Chavez supposed "Real Defenses" I can make lot of great fighters records look mediocre. Tell me how would it have be possible for any of the modern fighters to make a number of "Championship" defenses? Your definition of title defenses is weak i shouldnt have to dissect this for you. Was Chavez considered number 1 pfp for many years? Were you a fan then? I have a feeling you werent or else you wouldnt try and down play his dominance.

[manbearpig]

Yes he should. Big time.


No.
Explain your reason.

[bodhi]

Whats with you and your denial with Chavez:huh

Which denial? I rate Chavez in my Top25, just not in my Top15 and not ahead of Canzoneri. What´s with your denial of Canzoneri?


He beat the two best guys at JL which were Lockridge,Mayweather and a slew of other fighters Martinez,Laporte etc beat the best available, Gomez was badly faded when he got a gift over Lockridge. Chavez would have hurt Gomez and busted him up badly.

Yep, he did but neither was the champ at the time he fought them, so Chavez never became the champ. It´s that easy. What Chavez would have done doesn´t count. Or do you rate fighters on what they would have done?


Rosario was the man at lightweight when Chavez dominated him.

True, and I wrote so in my posting.


You conveniently left out how there was 4 years between Taylor and Randall.

Yeah, I didn´t write down that there were 4 years inbertween but that does not matter here because it´s about number of title defences and not years.


If you wanna nit pick Chavez supposed "Real Defenses" I can make lot of great fighters records look mediocre. Tell me how would it have be possible for any of the modern fighters to make a number of "Championship" defenses? Your definition of title defenses is weak i shouldnt have to dissect this for you.

You didn´t dissect anything. The real title is the only thing that counts. Holders of belts are just contenders but no champs. That´s why Hopkins didn´t break Monzon´s title defence record for example.


Was Chavez considered number 1 pfp for many years? Were you a fan then? I have a feeling you werent or else you wouldnt try and down play his dominance.

Why would I need to have been a fan of his to judge him? Strange logic. It looks like you let your bias cloud your judging. That´s fine since it´s easily recognisable. :good

[Minotauro]

I think i would but Barbadoes Joe in my top 20,based on resume and how small he was, never seen him fight though. Probably no footage on him. Am i correct?

Yeah no fight footage, there is an video interview he did when he worked as the janitor for Madison Square Garden (as seen in my avater). I have him top 15, quality fighter.