How many fighters would blow Frazier out?

[Marciano Frazier]

A roll-call of the great heavyweights of history seldom fails to include Joe Frazier's name. Most boxing fans rank him in the top 10 of the last 120 years. However, many(perhaps most- let us see the result of this poll) seem to hold a very low opinion of him when it comes to his ability to even be competitive with a significant portion of the other top heavyweights of history.

It seems to be a sort of knee-jerk reaction, whenever a "Frazier-vs.-a-name-opponent-with-top-punching-power" subject comes up, to pop in with "Frazier would be crushed in the first five rounds." I've variously seen people declare that champions such as Dempsey, Louis, Liston, Tyson, Lewis, and even lesser fighters like David Tua and Wladimir Klitschko, would simply swamp Frazier and take him out early. It is also frequently argued, and often by these same people, that George Foreman would destroy Frazier in the first few rounds every time, to the extent that if they fought 10 times or more, the result would be the same in every single one.

Personally, this all seems very narrow to me. I scarcely see anyone argue that since, say, Ali could outbox Foreman and Liston, therefore any top boxer beats them. Perhaps if Liston hadn't beaten Machen and proven he could beat a top boxer, it would be a similar knee-jerk reaction to pick everyone from Tunney to Walcott to Young to Byrd to beat him, the way people do with Frazier and power-punchers.

I would also like to point out, as I've done many times before, that Frazier was significantly past his peak when he lost to Foreman; he was 202-207 in nearly all of his top performances, but 214 against Foreman, and this was not a gain made up of lean muscle. He had had only two fights in close to two years since the Ali, and both were unimpressive showings against mediocre opponents. Ken Norton, his sparring partner at the time, had told Yank Durham privately that Frazier had lost something since the Ali fight, and Durham had advised Frazier to retire. Frazier's attitude in his training camp before the Foreman fight was described by observers as being more akin to that of a millionaire directing a yacht cruise than a blood-sweat-and-tears warrior conducting a serious training camp the way it had been in the past. It is clearly evident from the facts and film that Frazier had lost ground both physically and mentally in the aftermath of the Ali fight.

Moreover, Frazier hadn't brought in any strategy different from the norm for the first Foreman fight; he was simply employing his usual barrel-in-and-break-him-up-close gameplan when he was annihilated that night. In the rematch, Frazier, now further deteriorated and nearly washed-up, brought a more well-thought-through and intelligent gameplan to the ring and was far more competitive- in fact, that fight was fairly close up until the fifth round.

Now, if we combined these two elements- having Frazier at his best and employing a more intelligent gameplan, I see no good reason to believe he wouldn't stand a respectable competitive chance. And Foreman, in my opinion and those of most fans, had an especially bad style for Frazier, far beyond his simply being a crushing hitter: Foreman was a very fast starter, he was exceptionally strong, allowing him to manhandle Frazier and force him into position, he had a huge array of devastating punches, and he was most formidable with underhanded hooks and uppercuts, which are more effective against Frazier's type of defense. With all this taken into account, I think this oft-seen train of thought- that if probably the most devastating puncher of all time, who has a very bad style for him, can demolish a declining Frazier, therefore an assortment of other hard-hitting fighters with far different styles and ability levels could do the same to a peak Frazier- comes across as a very strained and weak standpoint.

[JimmyShimmy]

I can't see Joe surviving anyone who punches higher than 5/10. His chin was just very unreliable.

[janitor]

I don't know if anybody could do it with any consistency.

I can however think of a few fighters who would always give him some rough moments in the early rounds.

[MagnificentMatt]

Iron Mike, Lennox Lewis, obviousley Foremon, both Klitschkos most other tall punchers with a good straight hand. Reasoning for Tyson? Opening Bell rings and Tysons landed a 3 punch combination...Joe was to slow a starter to get past Tyson..But yeah first ones that come to mind, Tyson, and most taller fighters with a STRONG straight right

[Sonny's jab]

Frazier gets no respect around here.

[rekcutnevets]

I would say Foreman, Tyson, Liston, and Louis. Possibly Lewis as well.

[robert ungurean]

Frazier gets no respect around here.
Smoke has never gotten the respect he deserves.

[garymcfall]

Frazier gets little respect head to head, up until the first Ali fight Joe Frazier could have given most ATG heavyweights a beating. He was shot after 1971 though and the Foreman fight affects his legacy.

Tyson, Foreman, Lewis are the ones i can think of that might get him out early.

[heerko koois]

Prime Tyson would do it......Foreman has done it ...that is all folks [ 2 ]

[thunder06]

This is bullshit. Frazier would do well against any fighter in his prime, even Foreman. And he would KO Tyson imo.

[heerko koois]

:smoke This is bullshit. Frazier would do well against any fighter in his prime, even Foreman. And he would KO Tyson imo.

[McGrain]

Foreman would get him 10/10 times IMO. I also think Tyson could do it.

What about Liston? No-onme has picked him. He may be the hardest hitter in the divisions history...but I haven't picked him myself. Why? Why no Liston.

2.

Those who are picking Lewis, he was physically capable, but it NEVER would have happened. They could have fought 50 times and Lewis might have got him, but he never would have got him early.

[rekcutnevets]

I picked Liston, scroll up.

[McGrain]

I picked Liston, scroll up.


Quite right.

Tell me more.

[Amsterdam]

Lewis gets Frazier early?:lol:

On the flipside, if McCall and Rahman could get Lewis early, I see no reason why Frazier coudln't.

[McGrain]

On the flipside, if McCall and Rahman could get Lewis early, I see no reason why Frazier coudln't.


Seems unlikely that Lewis would be as sloppy in preperation or execution as he was for Rahman, for Frazier.

If he did he would get stopped early, third or fourth.

[mr. magoo]

Frazier gets no respect around here.

LOL :lol:

[Sonny Carson]

They would have to be able to take Frazier's left hook and have good power so I'm gonna go with Tyson, Bowe(too big for Frazier), Vitali Klichtsko, and Joe Louis of course. Joe would make Wladamir miss and hit him with a big left hook and put him down. Lewis could beat him but if Joe drops him the left hook it's over.

[C. M. Clay II]

The only ones I pick to take Joe out early are Foreman, Liston, and Louis.:good

[Bill1234]

IMO Foreman, Liston, and Tyson would, possibly Shavers (arguable).

[rodney]

Frazier in his prime at 208 lbs beats everything thats out there right now.
The Frazier that beat Ali was a human wrecking machine.

[cuchulain]

Any version of Foreman 'blows out' any version of Frazier 19 times out of 20.

No-one else, I don't believe.

I would pick him to lose to Ali, Louis, Lewis, Holmes, Marciano, Liston and Tyson most of the time. It's not that he COULDN"T beat any of the above list but he would lose between 6 and 8 times out of ten (prime for prime) depending on which one.

I don't think ANY of them, other than George, 'blows him out' (Tyson MIGHT)

Other than the above list, I would favour Frazier over any fighter .

[C. M. Clay II]

IMO Foreman, Liston, and Tyson would, possibly Shavers (arguable).

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

You've got to be joking. Don't you mean Frazier blow out Shavers?:lol: Shavers' chin was 10 times as worse as Fraziers, and he was slower, too. Frazier would crucify Shavers with in two rounds. No way Shavers has a chance of even getting to first base against Joe.:deal

[McGrain]

You've got to be joking. Don't you mean Frazier blow out Shavers?. Frazier would crucify Shavers with in two rounds.

I agree.

[janitor]

Frazier in his prime at 208 lbs beats everything thats out there right now.


I agree wholehartedly with this.

If Frazier was around today there would be one champion.

[jyuza]

Foreman, Liston, Ali, Marciano, Tunney, tyson... at least.

Lewis would have good chance too as Holyfield.

[jyuza]

I agree wholehartedly with this.

If Frazier was around today there would be one champion.

Definitely.

[janitor]

Bowe(too big for Frazier), Vitali Klichtsko, and

I strongly disagree with these picks.

[JohnThomas1]

Foreman and Liston i think. Tyson is a chance too.

[heerko koois]

:good Foreman and Liston i think. Tyson is a chance too.

[RAMPAGE0017]

What's all this about Frazier not having a great chin? It's not like he's ever been knocked OUT, I wouldn't even say his chin was " unreliable ", Frazier was continuously getting back up everytime Foreman knocked him down. And Foreman is considered one of the hardest punchers in the division's history, not to mention the advantage in size he has over him. Some of you are talking about Frazier like he's Ken Norton.

[Holmes' Jab]

Foreman, Tyson, perhaps Liston or Lewis would have a good chance. That's probably it.

Outside of those guys not too many others it has to be said, Frazier was a true great and not many had superior fighting guts and heart.

[Holmes' Jab]

Who picked 9 or more? :nut

[ChrisPontius]

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

You've got to be joking. Don't you mean Frazier blow out Shavers?:lol: Shavers' chin was 10 times as worse as Fraziers, and he was slower, too. Frazier would crucify Shavers with in two rounds. No way Shavers has a chance of even getting to first base against Joe.:deal

Yeah, that was a complete joke. Shavers loses 10 out of 10 to Frazier, all by knockout in the first rounds.

[Duodenum]

In chronological order, here are the fighters I think could potentially carry it off.

All of these pairings are assumed to be with the three KD rule waived (unlike Frazier's first war with Bonavena, where Ringo came within one deck of derailing him).

Jim Jeffries. Like Foreman, Jeff would push Smoke out into his own punching range. However, the match would then become an exchange of hooks, moreso than straight punches from long-range. The Boilermaker could be a fast starter when he chose to be, but whether or not he'd choose to go for a quick win or war of attrition is a question that I can't answer with any confidence. The possibilty is there for a quick stoppage. Of course, the only way to drop Joe for the count would be to render him unconscious. As is true for Patterson, nobody was ever able to completely switch out the lights on Joe, and unlike Floyd, Joe always beat the count comfortably.

Jack Dempsey. The Mauler had 21 first round kayos (probably more as Kid Blackie), and if he landed a rocket launcher like the uppercut off the ropes he blasted out Firpo with, Joe would get up, but have a difficult time recovering against Dempsey's follow-up barrage, even with the neutral corner rule honored. Jack didn't like fighting tall however, and Joe might be able to smother Dempsey's punches in close, as Tommy Gibbons did. Jack would be much more likely to outmaneuver Joe laterally however, so this would be a tricky proposition for Frazier.

Joe Louis. Smoke has ranked him as the top HW of all time. The Bomber had better take Smoke out quickly though. If he lets Frazier off the hook when hurt early, as he did Pastor and Galento in their title challenges, then Louis would be in for a long nasty battle. By his own admission, Louis didn't like to be crowded, and Smoke closed a lot more quickly, used a lot more upper body movement than Godoy, and was far more active in letting his fists fly, once he got inside. Head-to-head, I believe peak Frazier would have decisioned peak Louis. But the Bomber has the capacity to stun and stop Smoke from getting out of the starting gate. In the Godoy rematch, Louis displayed the punching style he'd need to get Frazier out early. The version of Louis who took Arturo out would naturally be the one most suited for both Frazier and Marciano.

Rocky Marciano. Smoke rated him as the HW runner-up to Louis. The Blockbuster had a large number of one round kayos, usually due to the result of a single punch. Frazier might be able to escape the early rounds by gluing himself to Rocky as Rex Layne did. If he could succeed in forcing Marciano into retreat, so much the better, but at least by not giving Rocky any room, Smoke could smother his punches until he was into the swing of things. Whenever Marciano had some room, Joe would need to bob and weave, more rapidly and incessantly than usual, if at all possible.

Ingemar Johansson. Ingo's not an ATG, and doesn't belong in the IBHOF. But he did blow out a contender who later lasted 12 rounds with a peak Liston, and ten rounds with a peak Frazier. If he hurt Joe early, like he did Patterson, it's Johansson-Patterson I all over again. Like Floyd, Smoke would keep getting back up, only to get dropped again, over and over, until it had to be stopped (as did happen when Joe lost the title himself).

Sonny Liston. If Liston bombed out Frazier early, it wouldn't likely be in the first round, but would more closely resemble Sonny's two wins over Big Cat. Patterson did just enough to show that Joe's bob and weave might give Liston a difficult target. Joe would need to slip inside Sonny's jab. If he could neutralize Liston's long left, he might escape the early rounds. Joe's hook was shorter and faster than Sonny's and could hold him in good stead through the beginning of the match.

George Foreman. This would have been a very difficult matchup for FOTC Frazier, simply because George would have been able to control him physically. The great irony of their rematch is that Frazier may have lasted into the fifth round precisely because he was a shot fighter, not in spite of it. (This is also why a past peak Ali was able to take out Frazier, Bonavena, and Foreman where a peak Ali would have probably settled for a points win, and also why Charlie Goldman stated that peak Louis wouldn't have lasted as long against Marciano as the shopworn version did.) If FOTC Frazier tried using the same tactics against Foreman that he attempted in their rematch, he might last long enough for George to wear down, but what are the chances that peak Frazier would even consider that strategy in a first-time matchup? Given that, it's a bad physical matchup for Smoke.

Mike Tyson. I have strenuously made the case for a Frazier victory against Tyson elsewhere on this forum, but in all candor, Mike could catch Joe early with the same sort of uppercut he took Marvis out with. It's not lost on me that Joe was a training partner with his son, and may have imparted the same advice that he would have chosen to apply to himself against the same opponent, in the same situation. But with Eddie Futch in Joe's corner, it could well be a different game, and I base much of my case for a Frazier win over Mike on Futch's involvement.

Earnie Shavers. 23 first round kayos, 18 second round stoppages, and nine third round outages. Quarry and Ellis proved that Earnie could be hurt and stopped early, if he was swarmed immediately. Joe would need to take that page out of Jerry's playbook. Earnie flattened Ellis after a clinch caused the referee to have to separate them. Then, Earnie had the breathing room he needed for the uppercut which won it. The fact that Joe was a clean fighter, with an adversion to clinching, plays tremendously in his favor here. If he can hurt Earnie, and pin him in a corner to work him over as Ellis and Quarry did, without allowing Earnie to clinch and force the referee to separate them, Joe can get the fight stopped in his favor. But if Earnie hits Joe with the same shot he took out Ellis with, Smoke may have a difficult time clearing his head before the referee stops the match.

Ron Lyle. Leroy Caldwell has said that the punching power of Lyle and Foreman was about equal, and Foreman has stated that Ron hit him the hardest of any of his opponents. If Lyle's concussive force was indeed comparable to George's, then the version of Ron who dropped George twice could give Frazier early hell. Ron had much better footwork than Foreman, and was an excellent counterpuncher off the ropes, actually kayoing Earnie Shavers by setting him up with that tactic in their legendary war. If Ron planned to try bombing out Joe early, he could use his mobility to establish punching room, or sucker Joe into a opening from the ropes.

Muhammad Ali. The fact is that in round two of their middle fight, Ali nearly pulled off this trick. Tony Perez wrongly halted the action as Muhammad was pounding Joe towards the ropes. Perez's mistaken interference may have preserved the rivalry (and helped line the pockets of both Ali and Frazier in Manila), but the fact remains that a competent referee wouldn't have stepped in to break things up. On the basis of that second round action, I submit Ali's name, as he was a great finisher for his style of boxing. (If Ali had Smoke hurt as badly as Bonavena did in the second round of Joe's first match with Ringo, Ali would have finished the job, even with the three KD rule waived, an inexcusable failure on Oscar's part.)

[mr. magoo]

Yeah, that was a complete joke. Shavers loses 10 out of 10 to Frazier, all by knockout in the first rounds.

How in the hell do you know? I mean, I'd pick Frazier to dust Earnie as well, but the hardest hitter of all time would always have a puncher's chance, and a good one at that. My guess is Joe would stop him in maybe 3 or 4 rounds, but the same thing could easily happen the other way.

[C. M. Clay II]

How in the hell do you know? I mean, I'd pick Frazier to dust Earnie as well, but the hardest hitter of all time would always have a puncher's chance, and a good one at that. My guess is Joe would stop him in maybe 3 or 4 rounds, but the same thing could easily happen the other way.

With Frazier's steamroller style the only way for Shavers to win is with one punch, and I don't care how hard Shavers hits no way he is taking out Frazier with one punch.:good

[Bummy Davis]

Frazier had a solid chin, remember he got up 6 times against Foreman, had they let it go another 3 rounds either Joe would have died or Foreman would have gotten tired but Frazier around the time of the first Foreman fight was already not able to get in top form.

[mr. magoo]

With Frazier's steamroller style the only way for Shavers to win is with one punch, and I don't care how hard Shavers hits no way he is taking out Frazier with one punch.:good


As I said before,

I'd pick Frazier by a wide margin to win this one, and rightfully so. But to say that he'd hands down destroy Shavers 10 out of 10 times, and early each time out, without a chance, is ignorant in my opinion. Any puncher can beat any puncher, and to not give Earnie a puncher's chance, when afterall, Frazier was decimated by another big right hander, is just plain wrong.

[Sonny Carson]

I strongly disagree with these picks.
The Bowe who fought Holyfield would stop Frazier. Frazier didn't have bad chin but if he got hit with the shots Holyfield took in the 10th he would be knocked out.

[GuyMcGuffin]

IMO Foreman, Liston, and Tyson would, possibly Shavers (arguable).

I agree with this list

[DocDevil]

Of the champions,if things went right for them,Foreman,Liston, Louis,Tyson and Lewis seem like possibilities.Non champions, a guy like Mac Foster seems like another one.You have to have size,a good chin and to be able to really hit,if you don't have all three,it ain't gonna happen against Joe.

[Muskyrat]

Foreman obviously, louis dempsey shavers tyson all have a punchers chance but it doesnt mean theyre gonna connect and some of em have dubious chins too so chances are theyd get ko'd first.

[C. M. Clay II]

As I said before,

I'd pick Frazier by a wide margin to win this one, and rightfully so. But to say that he'd hands down destroy Shavers 10 out of 10 times, and early each time out, without a chance, is ignorant in my opinion. Any puncher can beat any puncher, and to not give Earnie a puncher's chance, when afterall, Frazier was decimated by another big right hander, is just plain wrong.

So? Foreman beat him not only because of power, but also because or a long reach, imposing height and physical strength. Shavers was not physically stronger than frazier, he was not bigger than Frazier, and he did not have a huge reach advantage. Shavers cannot win here.:good

[groove]

Foreman is the only one. Liston and Tyson are 50/50. That Foreman would blow a lot of heavies away (especially swarmers) like he did to Frazier and Norton.

[Vantage_West]

Iron Mike, Lennox Lewis, obviousley Foremon, both Klitschkos most other tall punchers with a good straight hand. Reasoning for Tyson? Opening Bell rings and Tysons landed a 3 punch combination...Joe was to slow a starter to get past Tyson..But yeah first ones that come to mind, Tyson, and most taller fighters with a STRONG straight rightyea exactly tall guys who came to hit him not have a fight but hit him hard foreman didnt let him anywhere near his body he kept pushing him away.

and the liston comment he was to short (not a incredibly small man) he didnt have the size to keep the distance maybe a long reach but once frazier is indie thats it

[Marciano Frazier]

Well, at least it appears most people agree that the David Tuas and Gerry Cooneys of the division wouldn't bomb Joe Frazier out(which are ideas I've seen seriously proposed and argued in some discussions).

[Duodenum]

Well, at least it appears most people agree that the David Tuas and Gerry Cooneys of the division wouldn't bomb Joe Frazier out(which are ideas I've seen seriously proposed and argued in some discussions).In the case of Cooney, Gerry didn't have George's physical strength, and his handspeed left something to be desired, as did his ability to take a punch. Neither did Gerry have the sort of uppercut helpful against Joe. Smoke wouldn't have crumbled if Gerry stunned him as Cooney did others, but kept on coming. "Don't hook with a hooker" favors the faster and shorter punching Frazier heavily here. Joe could do significant work on Cooney's body in this one, and it would have been interesting to find out how Gerry responded.

[McGrain]

:lol:


Who are the three clowns that voted for 9 or more!?

Identify yourselves!

[Doppleganger]

Lewis gets Frazier early?:lol:

On the flipside, if McCall and Rahman could get Lewis early, I see no reason why Frazier coudln't.

WTF has this got to do with the thread btw? I have to agree that Lewis indeed is capable of getting Frazier out early, at least in theory. We are talking about the fact that he is one of the best combination punchers in HW history. His quality of chin, or lack thereof, has fuck all to do with the thread.

Liston, Lewis, Foreman (obviously), Tyson, Louis, Jeffries, Marciano, Shavers, W Klitchsko, Bowe, Fitzsimmons.

Please note that I by no means favour all of the above over Frazier, just that they are IMO capable, in theory, of blowing him out early.

[Dempsey1238]

:lol:


Who are the three clowns that voted for 9 or more!?

Identify yourselves!

Because I did not vote, here are your answers. lol

Bad_Intentions ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Charles187 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Doppleganger ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Sizzle ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[Doppleganger]

Because I did not vote, here are your answers. lol

Bad_Intentions ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Charles187 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Doppleganger ([Only registered and activated users can see links]), Sizzle ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

I've explained myself in my post..

[Cojimar 1945]

The years since the 1970s have seen an increase in large, athletic hard-punching heavyweights similar to Foreman but in some cases even more deadly. Frazier might be in even more trouble against later heavyweights who hit harder than Foreman and possess greater handspeed in addition to being bigger like Lewis and Wladimir Klitschko.

[Jack]

I think Frazier's is vastly underrated on here. These detractors base it on two fights.

1. Bonavena I. I watched this fight earlier tonight, and this really isn't 'Joe Frazier'. His style was nothing like it later became, and his defence certainly wasn't. He was fighting off the jab, kept himself at distance and wasn't using his bob and weave defence. I don't really see how this fight is relevant when it comes to judging Frazier's chin either, because he walked into a good shot, got up quickly. When he went down a second time, he wasn't hurt in the slightest. Does it really show signs of a weak chin? No. No more than you could say Marciano had a weak chin. It was a flash knockdown and probably a push.

2. The Foreman fight was a massacre, but, again, this was NOT prime Frazier. He was fat, lazy and past it. Is this really worse than saying prime Holmes lost to Tyson? I genuinly think the Frazier against Foreman was further from his prime than Holmes was in 1988. I keep mentioning him when it comes to the first Frazier/Foreman fight, but really. Loook at how Joe Frazier has a hard fight with Ron Stander. Prime Frazier wouldn't have got hit half as many times as that version did against Stander. If you can really watch the Stander fight and think that that version of Frazier had a thing left in the tank, there really is no point in me debating it further.

Instead of focusing on his losses, look who Frazier took great shots from - There is quite a few good punches on there, and regardless of what their knockout ratio was, he often took punches clean.

He had a really good chin. I don't think any heavyweight "blows him out". Maybe stops him late, but nothing like his loss to Foreman.

[rekcutnevets]

I picked Lewis as one of my guys, for the record.

Lewis, I think gets too much credit for being a combination puncher. I think he put combinations together, but most good fighters do. I think he gets overlooked for his timing. He sometimes looked uncoordinated, as some big guys can, but his timing is what I was impressed by. That combination that knocked out Rahman was all about timing. It wasn't just because he put a couple of punches together.

[Mendoza]

What's all this about Frazier not having a great chin? It's not like he's ever been knocked OUT, I wouldn't even say his chin was " unreliable ", Frazier was continuously getting back up everytime Foreman knocked him down. And Foreman is considered one of the hardest punchers in the division's history, not to mention the advantage in size he has over him. Some of you are talking about Frazier like he's Ken Norton.

Frazier was a courageous fighter for sure. Having a great heart and great stamina can prevent stoppage losses from running out of gas, or opting not to get up, but they really don't prevent a fighter from getting hurt by punches.

The interesting thing about the Ali_Frazier_Norton trilogies is Ali seemed to hurt Frazier more than Norton. I beleive Quarry stung Frazier more than Quarry stung Norton as well. Foreman smoked both of them. Norton gets grilled for having a glass jaw, but he also fought in more fights, fought past his prime more often, and had more matches with punchers in comparison to Frazier. A cursory comparison between the two shows Norton was stopped 4 times in 50 fights. Frazier was stopped 3 times in 37 fights. Who was down more as a pro? Frazier I think.

In boxing perception sometimes defines reality. Frazier had more guts and fire than Norton for sure, but looking back neither took punch well enough not to be viewed as suspect in the durability department. I think Frazier took a better punch than Norton did, by a small but noticeable margin, but my above points stand.

It is hard to say how many fighters would blow Frazier out. Foreman obviously is the template for such a conversation because he did it. So perhaps the best answer is a few big punchers could.

[Senya13]

Too many to list them all.

[Marciano Frazier]

The interesting thing about the Ali_Frazier_Norton trilogies is Ali seemed to hurt Frazier more than Norton. I beleive Quarry stung Frazier more than Quarry stung Norton as well. Foreman smoked both of them.
1. Frazier fought a collectively younger, fitter and more focused Ali.
2. No, actually, if you watch the first round of Quarry-Norton, you'll see Quarry appears to visibly hurt Norton near the ropes at one point, while he never had Frazier in trouble.

Norton gets grilled for having a glass jaw, but he also fought in more fights, fought past his prime more often, and had more matches with punchers in comparison to Frazier.
Norton had more fights than Frazier, but a very small percentage of his fights were against top opponent's relative to Frazier's fights. Norton fought almost nothing but no-names in his career prior to Ali, and was knocked out by the one opponent he faced who was even close to being a name opponent in his first 30 fights. Frazier, on the other hand, was taking on a top five contender in Bonavena in his 12th pro fight. Norton had more fights, but Frazier fought a heck of a lot more name opponents.

A cursory comparison between the two shows Norton was stopped 4 times in 50 fights. Frazier was stopped 3 times in 37 fights.
Yes, but all of Norton's stoppage losses were real knockouts(the other guy hurting Norton and knocking him down until he was counted out or the ref waved it off), whereas Frazier was only beaten that way by Foreman, and had a fight stopped between rounds against Ali although he had not at all been seriously staggered or floored. Frazier was only stopped against an all-time great and one of the hardest punchers of all time, while Norton was stopped by the likes of journeyman Jose Luis Garcia and a couple of hard-hitting-but-medium-level contenders.

Who was down more as a pro? Frazier I think.
Dead wrong. Norton was down against Aaron Eastling, twice against Garcia, once against Vic Brown, three times against Foreman, twice against Shavers, twice against Tex Cobb, and once against Cooney, making for a total of 12 times. Frazier was down twice against Bonavena and a total of eight times against Foreman, making 10.

In boxing perception sometimes defines reality. Frazier had more guts and fire than Norton for sure, but looking back neither took punch well enough not to be viewed as suspect in the durability department. I think Frazier took a better punch than Norton did, by a small but noticeable margin, but my above points stand.
No, they don't. See the addresses I gave to them above.

[Nick Balsamo]

Foreman would destroy him each and every time.

Liston, Lewis and possibly Tyson KO him early.

[Mendoza]

1. Frazier fought a collectively younger, fitter and more focused Ali.

2. No, actually, if you watch the first round of Quarry-Norton, you'll see Quarry appears to visibly hurt Norton near the ropes at one point, while he never had Frazier in trouble.
Norton fought Ali in 1973, 1973, and 1976. Frazier fought Ali in 1971, 1974, and 1975. Essentially both Frazier and Norton fought the same Ali. If there is a difference, Ali had yet to under go his style from a boxer to a counter puncher / clincher when Frazier beat Ali in 1971. I beleive Norton damaged Ali more so than Frazier. After all Norton broke Ali jaw, and should have edged the series 2-1 vs perhaps the most accomplished heavy weight boxer of all time. Also, there is no doubt that Ali hurt Frazier more so than Norton. Ali had Frazier shaken up in round two of the second fight, and TKO's in the third fight.

I do not recall seeing Quarry hurt Norton, but he did back Norton up on the ropes a few times. Quarry also had Frazier on the ropes a few times too.


Norton had more fights than Frazier, but a very small percentage of his fights were against top opponents relative to Frazier's fights. Norton fought almost nothing but no-names in his career prior to Ali, and was knocked out by the one opponent he faced who was even close to being a name opponent in his first 30 fights. Frazier, on the other hand, was taking on a top five contender in Bonavena in his 12th pro fight. Norton had more fights, but Frazier fought a heck of a lot more name opponents.

How can you say this? Both Norton and Frazier fought Ali, Quarry, Stander, and Foreman. Aside from the above reference fights, Norton fought better competition. Larry Holmes, Ernie Shavers, and Jimmy Young come to mind. I don't think you can debate that Frazier fought better competition. Norton's resume is better. Keep in mind Frazier had a better amateur career. Norton picked up boxing in the american armed forces, and turned professional at a relatively later age in his era.


Yes, but all of Norton's stoppage losses were real knockouts(the other guy hurting Norton and knocking him down until he was counted out or the ref waved it off), whereas Frazier was only beaten that way by Foreman, and had a fight stopped between rounds against Ali although he had not at all been seriously staggered or floored. Frazier was only stopped against an all-time great and one of the hardest punchers of all time, while Norton was stopped by the likes of journeyman Jose Luis Garcia and a couple of hard-hitting-but-medium-level contenders.

Norton was knocked out worse, but then again I Frazier did not fight bombers like Shavers or Cooney when he was older. If Frazier fought punchers like this in his mid to late 30's, he would be knocked out just the same. Which big puncher did Frazier face besides Foreman? I can’t think of any. Norton first loss to Garcia was more stamina related than durability related.


Dead wrong. Norton was down against Aaron Eastling, twice against Garcia, once against Vic Brown, three times against Foreman, twice against Shavers, twice against Tex Cobb, and once against Cooney, making for a total of 12 times. Frazier was down twice against Bonavena and a total of eight times against Foreman, making 10.
I am impressed. You know Frazier well. To be honest I did not count all the knockdowns, but Frazier was down on his knees to journeyman Mike Bruce. So Frazier was down a grand total of 11 times. Norton was down 12 times. The point to consider is Norton fought more punchers, had more fights, and fought outside of his prime more often. In the grand context of things, Frazier only going down one less time is not as impressive. I do think Smokin' Joe was a tad more durable even if he swelled up easier, but the degrees of durability between the two is rather close. I have most of Frazier's fights on tape. He was buzzed a few times some less than famous fighters. Stander buckled Frazier’s knees. So did Bugner, and Ramos. Norton fought Stander and beat him more impressively than Frazier did.

[mr. magoo]

So? Foreman beat him not only because of power, but also because or a long reach, imposing height and physical strength. Shavers was not physically stronger than frazier, he was not bigger than Frazier, and he did not have a huge reach advantage. Shavers cannot win here.:good

I've already said that I'd favor Frazier to win this one, and although, I have all the respect in the world for Joe, it's responses like yours that turn me against a lot of fighters,
Any guy who hits as hard as Earnie Shavers, ( and their aren't any others ) will always have a chance at knocking out another fighter, particulary if it's a guy who likes to get close and mix it up. Earnie had a vicious over hand right, which could touch down on Frazier, like the atom bomb on Hiroshima as he was coming in. You also said that one punch wouldn't do it? While this may be the case, he sure as hell could be staggered to the point of being open to further attack. Watch Shavers fight with Norton on Youtube. Although this wasn't a prime Norton, it'll give some insight as to what Shavers was capable of.

Oh, I almost forgot..........:good .........

[hobgoblin]

Frazier gets no respect around here.

Prime for prime:

Frazier would beat: Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, Ali, Patterson, Ingemar, Tunney
Frazier would lose to: Holmes, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey

Dempsey & Marciano would win because Frazier had very poor vision in one eye so it took away his frequent use of the right hand. It helps to be two handed in a brawl.

Who would blow out Frazier? "Blow out" is a very strong expression IMO. I'd pick Foreman, Louis, and Liston to win brutally under 6 rounds. I'm not sure if I call that "blow out." Therefore, I'll gave Louis and Liston 1/2 credit :lol: and vote for 2.

You made a very good point about Frazier making the second fight competitive even though he was shot and I certainly believe that he wasn't the same as FOTC.

[Marciano Frazier]

Norton fought Ali in 1973, 1973, and 1976. Frazier fought Ali in 1971, 1974, and 1975. Essentially both Frazier and Norton fought the same Ali. If there is a difference, Ali had yet to under go his style from a boxer to a counter puncher / clincher when Frazier beat Ali in 1971. I beleive Norton damaged Ali more so than Frazier. After all Norton broke Ali jaw, and should have edged the series 2-1 vs perhaps the most accomplished heavy weight boxer of all time. Also, there is no doubt that Ali hurt Frazier more so than Norton. Ali had Frazier shaken up in round two of the second fight, and TKO's in the third fight.
A. Notice Ali's first fight with frazier was in '71 and the last was in '75, whereas Norton's first was in '73 and the last was in '76. Further, Ali was, on average, lighter and trimmer for his fights with Frazier. He was virtually shot after the third Frazier fight, which is when Norton had his arguable win in their third fight. And Norton was in his prime for all three Ali fights, while Frazier was over the hill for their two rematches.

I do not recall seeing Quarry hurt Norton, but he did back Norton up on the ropes a few times. Quarry also had Frazier on the ropes a few times too.
Watch the first round of Quarry-Norton again. Norton certainly looks shaken to me, I think around the two-minute mark. Moreso than Frazier ever was.


How can you say this? Both Norton and Frazier fought Ali, Quarry, Stander, and Foreman. Aside from the above reference fights, Norton fought better competition. Larry Holmes, Ernie Shavers, and Jimmy Young come to mind. I don't think you can debate that Frazier fought better competition. Norton's resume is better. Keep in mind Frazier had a better amateur career. Norton picked up boxing in the american armed forces, and turned professional at a relatively later age in his era.
You're missing the point here. Let me illustrate:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Here are all of Norton's fights against opponents who were ranked at the time:
Ali(three times)
Foreman
Quarry
Bobick
Zanon
Young
Holmes
Shavers
LeDoux
Cobb
Cooney
This adds up to 13 fights against ranked opponents in Norton's 50-fight career.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, here are all of Frazier's fights against opponents who were ranked at the time:
Bonavena(twice)
Machen
Chuvalo
Mathis
Ramos
Quarry(twice)
Ellis
Foster
Ali(three times)
Foreman(twice)
Bugner
That makes 16 fights against currently-ranked opponents in his 37-fight career.
-------------------------------------------------------------------43% of Frazier's total fights were against currently-ranked opposition, compared with only 26% of Norton's. What's more, after his first 11 fights, even Frazier's off-fights that weren't againts contenders were still against respected gatekeepers and never against walk-over opposition, unlike Norton, who was still fighting guys with records like 8-15-1, 7-6-1, and 9-20-2 when he had over two dozen fights. Norton may have had more fights than Frazier did, but Frazier fought more ranked opponents and a much, much higher concentrated quality of opposition.


Norton first loss to Garcia was more stamina related than durability related.
Norton was decked in the first round of that match before eventually going down for the count in the eighth- was he already gassed out less than three minutes into the fight?

I am impressed. You know Frazier well. To be honest I did not count all the knockdowns, but Frazier was down on his knees to journeyman Mike Bruce. So Frazier was down a grand total of 11 times.
I was under the impression that the Mike Bruce incident was a standing-eight count, not an actual knockdown. Can you offer evidence here?

Norton was down 12 times. The point to consider is Norton fought more punchers, had more fights, and fought outside of his prime more often. In the grand context of things, Frazier only going down one less time is not as impressive.
See my above points with regards to the number and concentration of quality opponents these two fighters faced. Frazier fought the much tougher consistent level of opposition from a much earlier stage in his career and was knocked down less often.

I have most of Frazier's fights on tape. He was buzzed a few times some less than famous fighters.
Yes, but Norton was actually decked by the likes of Aaron Eastling and Vic Brown and was knocked out by Jose Luis Garcia- this is certainly much, much worse than anything that happened to Frazier.

Stander buckled Frazier’s knees.
I also have this fight, and I disagree. At no stage did Stander buckle Frazier's knees, although he did manage to bull him around a little in the first couple rounds.

Norton fought Stander and beat him more impressively than Frazier did.
Norton fought Stander four years and six losses later than(a past-peak) Frazier did.

[Mohak]

Blown out and beat arn't the same thing. Apart from Foreman for obvious reasons I can only see Liston blowing out Fraizer. Beat is another story. Fraizer's chin is solid.

[Mendoza]

Marciano Frazier A. Notice Ali's first fight with frazier was in '71 and the last was in '75, whereas Norton's first was in '73 and the last was in '76. Further, Ali was, on average, lighter and trimmer for his fights with Frazier. He was virtually shot after the third Frazier fight, which is when Norton had his arguable win in their third fight. And Norton was in his prime for all three Ali fights, while Frazier was over the hill for their two rematches.

Too much hair splitting. Frazier caught Ali before he got his sea legs back in 1971. By the 1973 Ali learned how to clinch and control the action. I see you don't want to touch my point that Ali hurt Frazier more than Norton with a 3 meter pole.


Watch the first round of Quarry-Norton again. Norton certainly looks shaken to me, I think around the two-minute mark. Moreso than Frazier ever was.
Norton had a way of covering up that made it look like he was hurt even if he wasn't. It was that crab like defense.


You're missing the point here. Let me illustrate:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Here are all of Norton's fights against opponents who were ranked at the time:
Ali(three times)
Foreman
Quarry
Bobick
Zanon
Young
Holmes
Shavers
LeDoux
Cobb
Cooney
This adds up to 13 fights against ranked opponents in Norton's 50-fight career.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, here are all of Frazier's fights against opponents who were ranked at the time:
Bonavena(twice)
Machen
Chuvalo
Mathis
Ramos
Quarry(twice)
Ellis
Foster
Ali(three times)
Foreman(twice)
Bugner
That makes 16 fights against currently-ranked opponents in his 37-fight career.

This is a good point. To add a bit, Norton fought Garcia twice. Garcia was a ranked guy too. So it's 15 to 16 in favor of Frazier. But quality of opposition is best judged at the top tier, wouldn't you agree? My point is Larry Holmes was great, and Norton nearly beat him in his prime. I'll also take a prime Jimmy Young who beat Foreman, and Prime Shavers who destoryed Eillis and Norton over anyone Frazier beat outside of Ali. There no debate that Norton fought the better punchers. He also also fought often outside his prime. As I said before if Frazier mixed it with Holmes, Cooney, or Shavers when he was past it, he would be knocked out. I disagree that Frazier fought better fighters. I have a hunch we will not mee tin the middle here. Much of it depends on you view of how good Holmes was.



Norton was decked in the first round of that match before eventually going down for the count in the eighth- was he already gassed out less than three minutes into the fight?
Yes, Norton was gassed. It wasn't his night.


I was under the impression that the Mike Bruce incident was a standing-eight count, not an actual knockdown. Can you offer evidence here?
The Phildelpha Daily News said Bruce dropped Frazier to his knees, and the referee gave an 8 count. It also makes not of Bruce entering the ring with shoddy gym shoes with holes in it.


See my above points with regards to the number and concentration of quality opponents these two fighters faced. Frazier fought the much tougher consistent level of opposition from a much earlier stage in his career and was knocked down less often.
Hardly. Holmes by himself tips the scales to Norton. If you add in Cooney, Shavers and Young, they are better than Chavalo, Machen and Ellis.


Yes, but Norton was actually decked by the likes of Aaron Eastling and Vic Brown and was knocked out by Jose Luis Garcia- this is certainly much, much worse than anything that happened to Frazier.
See the Bruce fight. Norton had trouble vs punchers, but so did Frazier. Norton just happened to fight more punchers and had more total fights. The more you fight, the more chance you have for bad things to happen. Norton fought in far more fights, and did not enjoy Frazier's early backing either.


I also have this fight, and I disagree. At no stage did Stander buckle Frazier's knees, although he did manage to bull him around a little in the first couple rounds.
He did buckle his knees. Frazier had his knees buckled a few times in other fights as well.


Norton fought Stander four years and six losses later than(a past-peak) Frazier did.
Maybe so but Norton looked great vs Stander. Stander some moments vs Frazier.

[NickHudson]

great post Marciano Frazier.

fraziers first performance against foreman was dismal. he was clearly fat and off his game. but whenever i watch it i am amazed by two things. the sheer volume and variety of accurate power punches foreman throws and the fact that frazier keeps getting up, usually at the count of 1-3.

there are few men who could give peak frazier a pasting...

A roll-call of the great heavyweights of history seldom fails to include Joe Frazier's name. Most boxing fans rank him in the top 10 of the last 120 years. However, many(perhaps most- let us see the result of this poll) seem to hold a very low opinion of him when it comes to his ability to even be competitive with a significant portion of the other top heavyweights of history.

It seems to be a sort of knee-jerk reaction, whenever a "Frazier-vs.-a-name-opponent-with-top-punching-power" subject comes up, to pop in with "Frazier would be crushed in the first five rounds." I've variously seen people declare that champions such as Dempsey, Louis, Liston, Tyson, Lewis, and even lesser fighters like David Tua and Wladimir Klitschko, would simply swamp Frazier and take him out early. It is also frequently argued, and often by these same people, that George Foreman would destroy Frazier in the first few rounds every time, to the extent that if they fought 10 times or more, the result would be the same in every single one.

Personally, this all seems very narrow to me. I scarcely see anyone argue that since, say, Ali could outbox Foreman and Liston, therefore any top boxer beats them. Perhaps if Liston hadn't beaten Machen and proven he could beat a top boxer, it would be a similar knee-jerk reaction to pick everyone from Tunney to Walcott to Young to Byrd to beat him, the way people do with Frazier and power-punchers.

I would also like to point out, as I've done many times before, that Frazier was significantly past his peak when he lost to Foreman; he was 202-207 in nearly all of his top performances, but 214 against Foreman, and this was not a gain made up of lean muscle. He had had only two fights in close to two years since the Ali, and both were unimpressive showings against mediocre opponents. Ken Norton, his sparring partner at the time, had told Yank Durham privately that Frazier had lost something since the Ali fight, and Durham had advised Frazier to retire. Frazier's attitude in his training camp before the Foreman fight was described by observers as being more akin to that of a millionaire directing a yacht cruise than a blood-sweat-and-tears warrior conducting a serious training camp the way it had been in the past. It is clearly evident from the facts and film that Frazier had lost ground both physically and mentally in the aftermath of the Ali fight.

Moreover, Frazier hadn't brought in any strategy different from the norm for the first Foreman fight; he was simply employing his usual barrel-in-and-break-him-up-close gameplan when he was annihilated that night. In the rematch, Frazier, now further deteriorated and nearly washed-up, brought a more well-thought-through and intelligent gameplan to the ring and was far more competitive- in fact, that fight was fairly close up until the fifth round.

Now, if we combined these two elements- having Frazier at his best and employing a more intelligent gameplan, I see no good reason to believe he wouldn't stand a respectable competitive chance. And Foreman, in my opinion and those of most fans, had an especially bad style for Frazier, far beyond his simply being a crushing hitter: Foreman was a very fast starter, he was exceptionally strong, allowing him to manhandle Frazier and force him into position, he had a huge array of devastating punches, and he was most formidable with underhanded hooks and uppercuts, which are more effective against Frazier's type of defense. With all this taken into account, I think this oft-seen train of thought- that if probably the most devastating puncher of all time, who has a very bad style for him, can demolish a declining Frazier, therefore an assortment of other hard-hitting fighters with far different styles and ability levels could do the same to a peak Frazier- comes across as a very strained and weak standpoint.

[Marciano Frazier]

Too much hair splitting. Frazier caught Ali before he got his sea legs back in 1971. By the 1973 Ali learned how to clinch and control the action. I see you don't want to touch my point that Ali hurt Frazier more than Norton with a 3 meter pole.
The '71 Ali was the closest thing to a peak Ali ever to be beaten. He looks impressive against Quarry, and although he had an awkward fight with Bonavena, he did close out very strongly. Moreover, as I said, Frazier's prime-past-prime status in his fights with Ali was more of a mirror image of Ali's, while Norton was a bit later than either man and was still in his prime for all three Ali fights(and Ali was semi-shot when Norton got to him for their own rubber match).
Ali-Frazier was a blood rivalry. These two men each viewed the other as his ultimate obstacle and defeating him as a central goal of his career. When they got in the ring together, it was a frenzied extravaganza and they put on some of the most intense action fights of all time. In other words, Ali was at his most focused, most determined and most aggressive when fighting Frazier. On the other hand, he viewed Norton more or less as just another opponent. Thus, the Ali Frazier fought, in addition to being collectively younger and fitter, was also a much more focused, sharper and hungrier fighter. Ali rocked Frazier more than he did Norton because Ali had a much higher punch output with far more intensity against Frazier than he did against Norton. If Ali had hit Norton as often and with as much conviction as he did Frazier, I expect he probably would've knocked him out.

Norton had a way of covering up that made it look like he was hurt even if he wasn't. It was that crab like defense.
Either way, Quarry was noticeably declining by the time he got to Norton(note he was 10 pounds heavier than he had been for Frazier, looking pudgy and tiring early, and went into a two-year period of inactivity after this fight).


This is a good point. To add a bit, Norton fought Garcia twice. Garcia was a ranked guy too. So it's 15 to 16 in favor of Frazier.
Notice I said "ranked at the time." Garcia was not currently ranked either time he fought Norton. He was ranked for a little while between their two fights in the '70-72 time period(mainly as a result of the win over Norton), but was just another journeyman going into their first fight and was washed-up by the time of their rematch.
If we were to change the standard slightly and include everyone these guys fought who was ever ranked, then Frazier would also have Doug Jones and Ellis a second time, increasing his count to 18.

But quality of opposition is best judged at the top tier, wouldn't you agree?
I think it's best judged at a balance- for example, the best fighters George Foreman fought were undoubtedly better than the best ones Louis fought, but Foreman's record is littered with literally dozens of knockouts over set-up opponents and includes only a handful of fights against those few exceptionally good opponents, while Louis' best opponents weren't as good as Foreman's, but Louis had several times as many fights against ranked opponents and dominated the division far longer. It's the guys who fought both extremely good top-tier opposition and a great deal of high-level opponents who I count as having the best quality of opposition, and Frazier certainly has both of those.

I'll also take a prime Jimmy Young who beat Foreman, and Prime Shavers who destoryed Eillis and Norton over anyone Frazier beat outside of Ali.
That wouldn't be very wise, since Quarry already annihilated Shavers in one round. And let us note that, although Young had recently beaten Foreman when he fought Norton, he would also go on shortly thereafter to lose back-to-back fights to Ossie Occasio. How's that for erratic?

There no debate that Norton fought the better punchers.
I think you're putting too much emphasis on this. Frazier did have two fights with Foreman, while Norton only had one. Norton also fought Cooney and Shavers, meaning that Norton has three fights against big punchers compared with Frazier's two. And a semi-shot Frazier at least managed to go four competitive rounds with Foreman in their rematch, while a similarly-over-the-hill Norton was just plain blitzed by Shavers and Cooney.

He also also fought often outside his prime.
I'm going to contest this. I consider Norton's prime to end with the Holmes fight. That gives him five fights while past it. Frazier's prime ended after the first Ali fight(note his 10-pound weight gain, inactivity, lack of his old sharpness or fire in most subsequent performances, etc.)

As I said before if Frazier mixed it with Holmes, Cooney, or Shavers when he was past it, he would be knocked out.
When a past-it Frazier mixed it with Foreman, who was much more dangerous than either Shavers or Cooney in my opinion, he still managed to hold his own for four rounds. I'm not convinced he would lose to Cooney or Shavers, even while past his prime, and if he did, I highly doubt he would be polished off in one round the way Norton was.

I disagree that Frazier fought better fighters. I have a hunch we will not mee tin the middle here. Much of it depends on you view of how good Holmes was.
Holmes is my #6 all time heavyweight, Foreman #3, and Ali #1. Thus, Frazier's second fight with Foreman at least cancels out Norton's with Holmes on the "whose-opposition-was-better" scale, and Frazier fought the better Ali(Ali was collectively younger and lighter, and was extremely focused, determined and sharp for his fights with his ultimate rival, Frazier, while he was pretty lackadaisical against Norton) and a considerably greater concentration of general contenders(and most of them twice, too), so Frazier gets my clear vote here.

Yes, Norton was gassed. It wasn't his night.
No trained professional fighter of any standing becomes tired to the point of being floored in less than a round.

The Phildelpha Daily News said Bruce dropped Frazier to his knees, and the referee gave an 8 count.
I bow to you on this point, then. However, getting back to the larger "knockdown-count-comparison" picture, I'd like to point out that the main reason it's close is that Frazier kept getting up to suffer six knockdowns in the first Foreman fight.
He actually showed considerably more durability than Norton, who was helplessly clutching at the ropes and unable to stand without them after the third knockdown- if Frazier would simply have stayed down or gotten up completely helpless after going down the third time, he would have saved another three knockdowns, and conversely, if Norton had been more durable and kept coming back until he'd gone down six times, the knockdown count would also appear more one-sided. Norton was rendered completely helpless and unable to stand after a relatively short beating and only three knockdowns, whereas Frazier was beaten monotonously from pillar to post and floored six times, but was still standing of his own power, albeit wobbly, even when the fight was stopped.

Hardly. Holmes by himself tips the scales to Norton. If you add in Cooney, Shavers and Young, they are better than Chavalo, Machen and Ellis.
1. Again, Frazier's second fight with Foreman makes up for a lack of a fight with Holmes in my estimation.
2. Cooney, Shavers and Young were probably better than Chuvalo or the Machen Frazier fought, but I do not believe they were better than Quarry(who blasted Shavers out in a round) or Ellis(who, although he was bombed out by Shavers, did much better against Quarry and had a better run at the elite level than Shavers, who was only able to post the occasional surprise blow-out of a contender when his puncher's chance came into play. And Cooney was completely unproven- I don't see how you can reasonably rank him above the likes of a Quarry, Ellis, or Bonavena when he never beat a top 10 fighter who was anywhere near his prime.


See the Bruce fight. Norton had trouble vs punchers, but so did Frazier. Norton just happened to fight more punchers and had more total fights. The more you fight, the more chance you have for bad things to happen. Norton fought in far more fights, and did not enjoy Frazier's early backing either.
The Bruce fight was Frazier's second pro fight when he was 21 years old. This is much different from being decked and even knocked out by journeymen when you're 27 or 28 years old with over a dozen fights under your belt like Norton was when he was knocked down by Eastling and Brown and out by Garcia. Norton, again, had one more fight against top-notch punchers than Frazier did, and in Frazier's two fights, he certainly did better than Norton did in his three.
And as to the "just-had-more-fights" thing, again, this is misleading. As I pointed out before, although Frazier had fewer fights, he had more against name opponents than Norton did. For another telling statistic, according to boxrec's records, 29 of Frazier's 37 fights were against opponents who had won at least two thirds of their fights, in comparison with only 28 of Norton's 50 fights.

He did buckle his knees. Frazier had his knees buckled a few times in other fights as well.
I think you're reaching on this one. It is true that Frazier was wobbled from time to time, but I don't see it against Stander.

Maybe so but Norton looked great vs Stander. Stander some moments vs Frazier.
Frazier was declining and 10 pounds overweight when he fought Stander. Stander had gone badly downhill, lost to some journeymen and bloated up to 229 pounds by the time he got to Norton. This creates quite a gap on the whole.

[Marciano Frazier]

So, to give a general overview, the decisive points here are that Norton, while a fully-grown man and a reasonably experienced professional, was repeatedly floored by mediocre journeymen and actually knocked out by one, while Frazier, after his first dozen pro fights and the age of 22, was only ever down against George Foreman, despite facing a much tougher consistent stream of opposition than Norton did. And in the bigger picture of their overall standings as fighters, Frazier outstrips Norton by a pretty wide margin. To illustrate this last point, imagine if each of their respective careers was exactly the same as in real life, except without the fights against Ali; Norton becomes just another contender, a guy who padded his record with a lot of no-names and won and lost his share when he stepped up, whose main claim to fame is giving Holmes a close fight(which would be noteworthy, but not remarkable, since several other fairly ordinary contenders did also). On the other hand, Frazier would still have been the absolute dominant figure in the heavyweight division for a period of several years and have emphatically cleaned out a very solid crop of high-level opposition before Foreman came in and usurped him. Frazier would still be a lock for the top 25 of all time, while Norton would be lucky to make the top 50.

[ChrisPontius]

Great discussion here, i will add that Frazier always fought agressive and took the fight to Ali, which automatically leads to him taking more risk and punches so it's not a suprise that he was hurt more against Ali than Norton, even though he was never really that hurt in my opinion.

[round15]

George Foreman got lucky when he fought Joe Frazier in 1973 and I strongly believe he would have had a much tougher time beating the Frazier from the Fight of the Century. In Jamaica, Frazier had no speed, no drive, no head movement and he was nearly ten pounds heavier than his prime weight of 205 lbs. Ali himself said that he had a hard time hitting Frazier cleanly in 1971 and that version of Frazier he fought would have knocked Foreman out. Remember, there's a reason why Foreman reneged on the immediate rematch clause against Frazier and chose to fight Roman and Norton instead. He knew that Frazier would come better prepared for a rematch and wanted to hold on to his title in fear of losing it, which he did to Ali. Frazier was the only guy Foreman ever admitted to being scared of. Watch the post fight interview at ringside with Foreman and Dunphy. He practically punched himself out as he was trying to catch his breath between sentences. If Frazier had made it out of the second round even in the condition he was, how much more could a tired Foreman do to him? I'll give Foreman major credit because he came to do the job and fought the perfect fight by keeping Frazier arms length. He was a great two time champion himself and probably the hardest right hand puncher in heavyweight history aside from Earnie Shavers. Some say Foreman had a little help from Mercante in 73 who was probably having an off night. Any other ref wouldn't have allowed Foreman to push off and shove instead of punching out of the clinches. Still, Joe Frazier gets no respect and it's primarily for this loss against George Foreman.

[Jbuz]

Lewis, Foreman, Liston and Louis. I accidently voted 3, but they are the 4 I would pick. That doesn't mean I think they would do it every time, but I think they would do it at least once in a series.

[Vaile]

For me Possibly Tyson, Foreman, Louis. others could do it, people with a reach, size advantage with good power. Klitschko's, lewis even someone like Bruno or Liston theoreticaly could that doesn't mean it's particularly likely.

[Nick Balsamo]

I see 4 fighters who could end it fast most of times:


3 of them KTFO based on long reach and huge power:

George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Lennox Lewis

The 4th has the best blend of speed\power in history: Mike Tyson

Frazier is a slow starter with a sometimes vulnerable chin.

Tyson is a fast starter with tremendously flashing power and ferocity.

Make the equation: Tyson gets to Frazier early.

[Bummy Davis]

So, to give a general overview, the decisive points here are that Norton, while a fully-grown man and a reasonably experienced professional, was repeatedly floored by mediocre journeymen and actually knocked out by one, while Frazier, after his first dozen pro fights and the age of 22, was only ever down against George Foreman, despite facing a much tougher consistent stream of opposition than Norton did. And in the bigger picture of their overall standings as fighters, Frazier outstrips Norton by a pretty wide margin. To illustrate this last point, imagine if each of their respective careers was exactly the same as in real life, except without the fights against Ali; Norton becomes just another contender, a guy who padded his record with a lot of no-names and won and lost his share when he stepped up, whose main claim to fame is giving Holmes a close fight(which would be noteworthy, but not remarkable, since several other fairly ordinary contenders did also). On the other hand, Frazier would still have been the absolute dominant figure in the heavyweight division for a period of several years and have emphatically cleaned out a very solid crop of high-level opposition before Foreman came in and usurped him. Frazier would still be a lock for the top 25 of all time, while Norton would be lucky to make the top 50.


I never thought much of Norton despite his success with Ali, he was Ko'd by every puncher he faced and when he got to Quarry, Jerry was completly done, Quarry himself said he was on Drink and Cocaine and a woman and did not train for Norton.Frazier had a short prime but a his peak he was a dangerous puncher and had a good workrate, hooking to the body and head, He only had one arm but it was enough to hit Ali with it plently and even though Ali knew it was coming could not avoid being hit by it. Frazier used to hurt and drop Ken frequently when Kenny was his sparring partner. Kenny was effective vs Ali but his losses to punchers bring him down. I think Ali was prime vs Frazier in the 1st fight, he was at his strongest, The Foreman fight was also up there but stategy had a lot to do with the outcome

[Bummy Davis]

I see 4 fighters who could end it fast most of times:


3 of them KTFO based on long reach and huge power:

George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Lennox Lewis

The 4th has the best blend of speed\power in history: Mike Tyson

Frazier is a slow starter with a sometimes vulnerable chin.

Tyson is a fast starter with tremendously flashing power and ferocity.

Make the equation: Tyson gets to Frazier early.


Tony Tucker rocked Tyson like in the second round and kept Mike pretty carefull, boneclucher Smith did the same and held,Lennox kept him honest by making Mike feel jhis power early then going back to the jab and outside but if Tyson felt Joe's power early he may be a bit more carefull just charging in,Frazier had power, had a solid chin but it was there to be hit but you also had to taste Joes hook which could be a strong deterrent for reckless aggresion, the fight would not be a blowout, a shootout maby but not a blowout