Leonard or Robinson - Who had faster hands? [Archive]

DavidPayne

10-09-2007, 08:23 AM

Instinctively I'd opt for Ray Leonard, but of course, he lacked Robinson's knockout power.

I'm not sure there is much in it, Robinson changed so much about the boundaries of how fighters could operate. Though true informed historians will doubtless point to the fighters that influence and shaped Robinson's game as the real innovators.

Sugar Ray Robinson was tremendously quick.

Holmes' Jab

10-09-2007, 08:34 AM

Leonard, marginally. :thumbsup

Lefty Supremacy

10-09-2007, 08:37 AM

For pure handspeed I'll go with Leonard. Robby had insane accuracy to go with his handspeed though.

JohnThomas1

10-09-2007, 09:15 AM

I'd think Leonard by a smidgeon, but i'd like to see John Garfield's comments. He's the man for this one.

PowerPuncher

10-09-2007, 09:15 AM

Leonard was quicker but didn't put as much on his shots. If you put more on your shots they arent as quick.

JohnThomas1

10-09-2007, 09:25 AM

Leonard was quicker but didn't put as much on his shots. If you put more on your shots they arent as quick.

I'm assuming you (and everyone else who states Leonard as matter a factly) have seen footage of SRR at 147 where he was likely at his fastest due to obvious weight, age and peak quotient reasons? If not you've seen him live?

Anybody going by footage of SRR at Middleweight only isn't really in position to comment here IMO. Certainly not in the way you have. I am in the same boat of course. For a true answer here we need to compare the two at 147.

John Garfield might be the voice of reason on this one.

China_hand_Joe

10-09-2007, 09:29 AM

John Garfield might be the voice of reason on this one.

Personal memories from 50 years ago are not the way to go mate.

JohnThomas1

10-09-2007, 09:42 AM

Personal memories from 50 years ago are not the way to go mate.

Better than no memories or footage at all, especially given that John is honest, sincere and not prone to go over the top with either era. He's not a days of yore man whatsoever.

john garfield

10-09-2007, 10:17 AM

I'm assuming you (and everyone else who states Leonard as matter a factly) have seen footage of SRR at 147 where he was likely at his fastest due to obvious weight, age and peak quotient reasons? If not you've seen him live?

Anybody going by footage of SRR at Middleweight only isn't really in position to comment here IMO. Certainly not in the way you have. I am in the same boat of course. For a true answer here we need to compare the two at 147.

John Garfield might be the voice of reason on this one.

For pure blurring speed, I'd give the edge to Leonard, but most were shoeshines to get out of trouble or catch the judges eyes. Every shot in an SRR combo was meant to flatten.

DaveTheWave

10-09-2007, 11:11 AM

Consider weight; sure, Robinson was a middle for the footage we've seen, but as an example he was 154 or 155 in the ring the night of the last LaMotta fight. That's about what most welters weigh in the ring on the night of the fight anyway. Robinson didn't weigh in at 160 for that one. Also, Leonard slightly faster, but not enough to make much of a difference.

C. M. Clay II

10-09-2007, 04:36 PM

I think Leonard had slightly faster hands.:good

Blacc Jesus

10-09-2007, 04:44 PM

Leonard.

pryorgatti

10-09-2007, 04:45 PM

Robinson

C. M. Clay II

10-09-2007, 04:47 PM

Robinson

Finally a vote for Robinson.

Stonehands89

10-09-2007, 04:56 PM

For pure blurring speed, I'd give the edge to Leonard, but most were shoeshines to get out of trouble or catch the judges eyes. Every shot in an SRR combo was meant to flatten.

Succinct and sensible -as usual.

This strikes me as a meaningless question. Shoeshines can be blurry but they are not exactly a critical part of the repertoire. Robinson was efficient and didn't bother with anything too showy in there. And he had demon speed anyway.

Who was faster throwing meaningful punches once set? Considering how fast SRR was as a 30 something year old MW, I suspect that in his WW prime, he was. Factor in accuracy, variety, delivery, and Robinson has the edge (although I loved how smoothly Leonard punched).

MagnificentMatt

10-09-2007, 05:02 PM

Id say Leonard, without a doubt..

Consider the glove sizes as well..

Robinson could deliver speed and power at the same time better then Leonard though..

Stonehands89

10-09-2007, 05:08 PM

Incidentally, in terms of fast twitch fibers, I'd give Hearns the edge over both Rays.

Nemesis

10-09-2007, 05:12 PM

Incidentally, in terms of fast twitch fibers, I'd give Hearns the edge over both Rays.what about Roy?

MagnificentMatt

10-09-2007, 05:14 PM

I think RJJR had the most ridiculous twitch speed ever..

Especially when you consider his combination of twitch and power..

Tyson is up there as well. (He was 200+ lbs along with his speed)

Stonehands89

10-09-2007, 05:18 PM

:huh He had a cannon for a right arm, but in terms of combination speed and overall quickness, I don't see it at all. In one shot possibly he was as fast.

That surprises me. Hearns had sick speed. Watch the first Leonard fight. In most exchanges early (the best time to measure speed as both men are daisies), Hearns is landing first and last.

Stonehands89

10-09-2007, 05:19 PM

I think RJJR had the most ridiculous twitch speed ever..

Especially when you consider his combination of twitch and power..

Tyson is up there as well. (He was 200+ lbs along with his speed)

Jones may actually edge all three in terms of speed.

MagnificentMatt

10-09-2007, 05:20 PM

Jones may actually edge all three in terms of speed.

I think he does, and im not even a fan heh.

Robbi

10-09-2007, 05:23 PM

De La Hoya is just as quick as Leonard.

MagnificentMatt

10-09-2007, 05:27 PM

De La Hoya is just as quick as Leonard.

I dont think so, but maybe, and if so, it was more timing with his combinations than just natural speed.

Robbi

10-09-2007, 05:28 PM

And Shane Mosley's early welterweight days, without question as quick as Leonard, if not quicker. Rivera, De La Hoya I, Diaz, Taylor.

MagnificentMatt

10-09-2007, 05:31 PM

And Shane Mosley's early welterweight days, without question as quick as Leonard, if not quicker. Rivera, De La Hoya I, Diaz, Taylor.

I think i'll agree with that one.. Not only because Mosley is my boy but because... Well, he was fast as hell.. I remember watching the Willy Wise fight and seeing him throw a hook (i think it was late) but i didnt even see him throw the punch the first time i saw that fight..

But i think Sugar Shane would have a speed edge over tons of people, Lightweight and Welterweight..

Robbi

10-09-2007, 05:31 PM

I dont think so, but maybe, and if so, it was more timing with his combinations than just natural speed.

De La Hoya threw a four punch combination against Chavez in the rematch which was about 1 second from when he started the combination and finished it. If you have the fight to hand, check it out, end of the 7th round.

And some of the combinations he threw against Trinidad were rather sublime. Check out the 5 punch combination he landed during the 9th round. Its near the start of the round with about 30 secs gone. All solid punches, starting with the body and finishing to the head.

Stonehands89

10-09-2007, 05:36 PM

Well, a lot of that also had to do with his height and reach as to who landed first, but in terms of combinations Leonard had the edge over just about anyone who ever fought bar Jones Jr., young Camacho and Taylor.

Discount the shoeshines. Leonard had great speed, but people get fooled by the nonsense flurries. Leonard was savvy enough to seem faster than he was... In terms of effective speed, I give a slight edge to Hearns -and his arms had to travel further for extensions.

Robbi

10-09-2007, 05:36 PM

I think i'll agree with that one.. Not only because Mosley is my boy but because... Well, he was fast as hell.. I remember watching the Willy Wise fight and seeing him throw a hook (i think it was late) but i didnt even see him throw the punch the first time i saw that fight..

But i think Sugar Shane would have a speed edge over tons of people, Lightweight and Welterweight..

Watch Shane Mosley's handspeed at lightweight, especially against Holliday when he first won the title, then check out those fights I mentioned at welterweight. The reason I put forward the Holliday fight, this was when he was not struggling with the scales, which he clearly was late during his lightweight reign.

Watch the Holliday fight, and you'll get a rude awakening. I'm not saying Mosley's slow, but not the blinding speed he showed during his early welterweight days. Very noticeable.

JohnThomas1

10-10-2007, 02:52 AM

For pure blurring speed, I'd give the edge to Leonard, but most were shoeshines to get out of trouble or catch the judges eyes. Every shot in an SRR combo was meant to flatten.

Thanks John, i was guessing similar.

JohnThomas1

10-10-2007, 02:53 AM

JohnThomas1

10-10-2007, 03:03 AM

De La Hoya is just as quick as Leonard.

No way in the world.

JohnThomas1

10-10-2007, 03:05 AM

Incidentally, in terms of fast twitch fibers, I'd give Hearns the edge over both Rays.

:good

Emmanuel often commented how overlooked Hearns speed was and said it was pivotal vs Duran not to mention Leonard.

Senya13

10-10-2007, 03:10 AM

Amateur Leonard had argueably the 2nd or 3rd fastest hands I've seen (behind Meldrick and argueably behind Jones). The footage of Robinson as an amateur or at welter (not much is available, but there's still some footage to estimate his handspeed) wasn't as impressive.

SugarRay

10-10-2007, 03:22 AM

Leonard's appear to be quicker but, it could be the due to advances in cameras, which could record movement more accurately. However, Robinson's was more accurate, which had more devastating effects.

werety

10-10-2007, 04:09 AM

Stonehands89

10-10-2007, 07:03 AM

I kinda agree with stonehands upon watching leonard hearns again. In this fight leonard is forced to throw his hardest punches and none of his fancy flurries. He still looks extremely fast, but hearns looks just as fast to me, if not faster. Hard to put robinson in the mix with lack of film though.

Robinson is tough. Film quality is not as colorful, literally and the camera was set at a distance. Compare Tyson's film to Louis's... Tyson has the advantage of a microphone in the ring, close-up angles and bristling color. Poor Louis is grainy, gray, and with fake sound effects.

Robbi

10-10-2007, 08:03 AM

No way in the world.

Yes way in the world. De La Hoya's handspeed at times compares to Leonard's, and Mosley's early welterweight days maybe even quicker.

JohnThomas1

10-10-2007, 08:33 AM

Yes way in the world. De La Hoya's handspeed at times compares to Leonard's, and Mosley's early welterweight days maybe even quicker.

We're seeing two totally different things, but each to their own i guess.

ThinBlack

10-10-2007, 09:16 AM

Yes way in the world. De La Hoya's handspeed at times compares to Leonard's, and Mosley's early welterweight days maybe even quicker.

Howard Davis Jr. and Bernard Taylor was faster than either De La Hoya or Mosley, and I'm apt to say that Camacho was also.

mr. magoo

10-10-2007, 09:24 AM

Although his prime was very short, I seem to remember Meldrick Taylor having very quick hands in his early days. The Courtney Hooper and Chavez fights come to mind.

achillesthegreat

10-10-2007, 03:00 PM

Leonard was a bit faster and Robinson a bit more powerful. It evens out when thinking of speed to power ratio.

cuchulain

10-10-2007, 03:59 PM

Leonard, if it matters.

George W Hedge

10-10-2007, 05:15 PM

Personal memories from 50 years ago are not the way to go mate.

Its actually the only way to go mate because for some fucked up annoying reason we have got more or less 0 footage of the best ever boxer in his best ever weight & we have footage from before srr at 147.

It deeply saddens yet angers me at the same time.

:twisted: :-(