My Top 100 of all-time

[TBooze]

Top 100 of all-time (9th October 2007)

The numbers in brackets were places where I placed my top 35 of all-time in April 2005

100 Manny Paciquao
99 Harry Wills
98 Kid McCoy
97 Jeff Fenech
96 Carlos Ortiz
95 Jimmy McLarnin
94 Tony Zale
93 Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis
92 Freddie Welsh
91 Dick Tiger
90 Jeff Chandler
89 James J Corbett
88 Brian Mitchell
87 Wilfredo Gomez
86 Kid Chocolate
85 Marcel Cerdan
84 Joe Frazier
83 Winky Wright
82 Kostya Tszyu
81 Jimmy Carruthers
80 Jack McAuliffe
79 Rinty Monaghan
78 Nicolino Loche
77 Mike Tyson
76 Bob Montgomery
75 Lennox Lewis
74 Young Griffo
73 Aaron Pryor
72 Nino Benvenuti
71 Jim Driscoll
70 Salvador Sanchez
69 Mike McCallum
68 Jack Dempsey
67 Flash Elorde
66 Wilfred Benitez
65 Rocky Marciano
64 Felix Trinidad
63 Abe Attell
62 Antonio Cervantes
61 James J Jeffries
60 Al Brown
59 Eusebio Pedroza
58 Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
57 Evander Holyfield
56 Bob Foster
55 Larry Holmes
54 Stanley Ketchel (19)
53 Michael Spinks
52 Azumah Nelson
51 Ruben Olivares (32)
50 Jose Napoles
49 Pascual Perez
48 Manuel Ortiz
47 Ike Williams
46 Roy Jones Jr (35)
45 Maxie Rosenbloom
44 Jack Johnson
43 Floyd Mayweather Jr
42 Tony Canzoneri
41 George Foreman (34)
40 Eder Jofre (26)
39 Johnny Kilbane
38 Kid Gavilan
37 Tommy Loughran
36 Ricardo Lopez
35 Alexis Arguello (24)
34 Bernard Hopkins
33 Carlos Zarate (25)
32 (Barbados) Joe Walcott
31 Tommy Hearns (31)
30 Marvin Hagler (30)
29 Pancho Villa (21)
28 Emile Griffith
27 Joe Louis (29)
26 Joe Gans (33)
25 Gene Tunney (28)
24 Terry McGovern
23 George Dixon (27)
22 Georges Carpentier (4)
21 Oscar de la Hoya (22)
20 Pernell Whitaker (23)
19 Julio Cesar Chavez (15)
18 Sammy Langford (9)
17 Barney Ross
16 Ray Leonard (13)
15 Carlos Monzon (12)
14 Ezzard Charles (17)
13 Bob Fitzsimmons (20)
12 Benny Leonard (16)
11 Charley Burley (10)
10 Muhammad Ali (11)
9 Harry Grebb (18)
8 Jimmy Wilde (7)
7 Sandy Saddler (5)
6 Willie Pep (6)
5 Mickey Walker (14)
4 Archie Moore (8)
3 Roberto Duran (3)
2 Henry Armstrong (2)
1 Ray Robinson (1)

[young griffo]

What's Stanley Ketchel done wrong to drop 35 places since April 2005?

Even if you've revised your rankings it still seems a massive drop in his position,considering nothing has happened in the last two years to alter his accomplishments which have stood for the ninety-odd years since his death.

[TBooze]

What's Stanley Ketchel done wrong to drop 35 places since April 2005?

Even if you've revised your rankings it still seems a massive drop in his position,considering nothing has happened in the last two years to alter his accomplishments which have stood for the ninety-odd years since his death.

I think with hindsight I serverly overrated him. He died very young and I try not get overrate fighters because of that. I bang on about Sanchez (and indeed to a point Young Griffo) being overrated because of their early death, but I was being a hypocrite rating Ketchel on what could of been rather than what was, which I rate his 99 peers on, so I made the correction...

[dmt]

good effort but gjys like Jofre and Rocky are too low

[Sizzle]

Very solid effort!

[mattdonnellon]

Great Effort. As U Know Nobody Can Possible Agree With All Ur Picks But Its Very Even. For Me Langford Maybe Higher And Hopkins And Foster Too High But What The Hell....

[garymcfall]

Looks decent enough to me, id say de la hoya is a bit high but other than that i dont think theres anyone there thats being grossly overated or underrated.

[TBooze]

Great Effort. As U Know Nobody Can Possible Agree With All Ur Picks But Its Very Even. For Me Langford Maybe Higher And Hopkins And Foster Too High But What The Hell....

There is no doubt a ton of one time Light Heavies in there, suprised me while I was doing it.

[sweet_scientist]

Good effort T.

My take on it:

- Sensible move to take Carpentier out of the number 4 spot! :lol: Good to see you give Greb more credit as well. 9 is much more tenable than 18.

- How is Flash Elorde 30 odd spots above Carlos Ortiz, who thoroughly owned his ass?

- Brian Mitchell above the likes of Carlos Ortiz, Jimmy McLarnin, Ted Kid Lewis, Tony Zale, Nico Locche and Freddie Welsh? Wow.... How?

- FIghting Harada HAS to be top 100. I personally think he is well, well inside the top 50.

-I feel Miguel Canto, Billy Conn, Owen Moran, Jack Blackburn, Lew Tendler, Dave Holly, Young Griffo, Vicente Saldivar, Johnny Dundee, Ken Buchanan and Mike Gibbons should make the top 100.

Who I'd replace them with?

Jeff Chandler, Brian Mitchell, Winky Wright, Manny Pacquaio, Jimmy Carruthers, James J Corbett, Rinty Monaghan, Kostya Tszyu, and possibly Jeff Fenech, Flash Elorde and Al Brown.

Good effort overall though, a much improved list :good

[Amsterdam]

I like the effort and most is placed sensibly. However, Pac's already got a better resume than Kostya Tszyu has, coming from a big Tszyu fan as well.

[brownpimp88]

Marco Antonio Barrera has beat hamed, morales twice, tapia, ayala and kelley. That is much better than marcel cerdan's resume.

[Luigi1985]

IMO not a good list, fighters who are way too high:

Hopkins
Holmes
Foreman
Cerdan
Ali
Villa
Mayweather
Tyson
Locche
etc.


way too low/ are completely missed:


Loi
Jofre
C. Ortiz
Canzoneri
Bogash
Fighting Harada
Langford
etc.

[McGrain]

Wow. & because you have Burley so high I will make just two observations - Dick Tiger is to low and I agree with Luigi about Langford, he should be top 3...top 15 if not.

[TBooze]

Wow. & because you have Burley so high I will make just two observations - Dick Tiger is to low and I agree with Luigi about Langford, he should be top 3...top 15 if not.

I use to have Burley and Langford as my #2 at one stage or another; but the more I read about everyone else, as great as they are, the slightly less they become in my eyes....

There probably is a bias towards Jewish and 175lbers in my list as they are the books I have been reading in the last year. Although Unforgiveable Blackness gave Johnson a slight decline and I have tried to curb my Fleischer loves... so they must suck theory, a horrible man, but he knew his pre 1910 boxing.

Janitor got me to study Walcott and finally because of past criticism's I tried to be as contemporary as my knowledge would allow me to be.

[McGrain]

IJanitor got me to study Walcott and finally becuase of past criticism's I tried to be as contemporary as my knowledge would allow me to be.

It's a very, very good list. I'm most impressed because I have a top 3. And I swap them about :lol:

At the moment.

#1 Sugar Ray Robinson
#2 Sam Langford
#3 Hank Armstrong

That really is it. If I try to add anything I get angry and start breaking things.

[Dempsey1238]

Notice Dempsey did make it. The heavyweight that is.

[TBooze]

Notice Dempsey did make it. The heavyweight that is.

They are both there.;)

[Dempsey1238]

ok he is 68.

[Dempsey1238]

Your list of couse is very flaw. With out Ross leading the pack, it shows how flaw it is. He is number 1.

[McGrain]

They are both there.;)

Here's another question: Moore above Charles - what's the thinking there?

[TBooze]

Here's another question: Moore above Charles - what's the thinking there?

He achieved more;) over a longer period of time, and no one can compete with what he did post 40 years old.

Charles had Moore's number it can be argued that he was a finer 175lber, but for what ever reason ($ is suspect) Charles moved up to Heavyweight without doing everything he could of done at 175.

Moore on the other hand dominated the division for 10+ years, was a long time Middleweight contender before that and whilst dominanting the 175lbers he showed he could beat all but the very best at Heavyweight, all with the added bias of being at least 37 years old during that period.

[brownpimp88]

He achieved more;) over a longer period of time, and no one can compete with what he did post 40 years old.

Charles had Moore's number it can be argued that he was a finer 175lber, but for what ever reason ($ is suspect) Charles moved up to Heavyweight without doing everything he could of done at 175.

Moore on the other hand dominated the division for 10+ years, was a long time Middleweight contender before that and whilst dominanting the 175lbers he showed he could beat all but the very best at Heavyweight, all with the added bias of being at least 37 years old during that period.
archie moore lost to ezzard, burley, patterson, rocky, and he never won a single fight against them. Ezzard on the other hand beat more hall of famers on more occasions.

[mattdonnellon]

Not as a critism but lately I have come across some of Nonpariel's career and I'm sure he is a tad overated.

[C. M. Clay II]

IMO not a good list, fighters who are way too high:

Hopkins
Holmes
Foreman
Cerdan
Ali
Villa
Mayweather
Tyson
Locche
etc.


way too low/ are completely missed:


Loi
Jofre
C. Ortiz
Canzoneri
Bogash
Fighting Harada
Langford
etc.

Ali way too high? He's #10 for god sakes. How low do you want him to go?:lol:

[young griffo]

I think with hindsight I serverly overrated him. He died very young and I try not get overrate fighters because of that. I bang on about Sanchez (and indeed to a point Young Griffo) being overrated because of their early death, but I was being a hypocrite rating Ketchel on what could of been rather than what was, which I rate his 99 peers on, so I made the correction...
Fair enough.
Whilst I disagree with some of your seletions you obviously put a lot of thought into it to come up with such a large list (I struggle to do top 10's for a single division) and should be commended for it.

[TBooze]

How is Mickey Walker at #5, and how is he above Greb? Greb is still too low, though I at least appreciate you putting him higher. A few others, such as Ortiz being #96 seems way too low, as well as Floyd over Jones.

Thanks for noticing Greb, you made me think seriously and research that one;) (also sneaked Sweet Pea over Oscar for you:good).

Ortiz was always on my mind (hey that could be name of a song) once I got to 50, but I seemed to have an excuse to avoid putting his name in the frame. Mainly it was: if you cannot find a place for Buchanan then why should be Ortiz be there? But Carlos was my #3 fighter of the 60s, so maybe with hindsight he was robbed slightly with the low rating.

[Amsterdam]

Oscar de la Hoya top 25???

Mate, he doesn't even deserve top 75.

[sweet_scientist]

Well, Ortiz was well past his best against Buchanan, and had a better resume overall for sure, and one of the best LW resumes of all time, as well as a good run at 140. He surely belongs above Buchanan despite the loss when past his prime. I personally have Ortiz top 50.

Yeah the loss to Buchanan was pretty meaningless. Ortiz hadn't beaten anyone of note in about four years and had lost to the only decent fighter he faced in the interim, Teo Cruz.

[brownpimp88]

Oscar de la Hoya top 25???

Mate, he doesn't even deserve top 75.
Why not hes beat 16 beltholders and 2 of his losses he arguably won.

[RafaelGonzal]

I take issue with the position of Delahoya..... guy has never come up big in his greatest fights and you vaulted him over guys that are far more deserving, its ridiculous was there any thought to why you have him ahead of say Marciano? thats just one name, there are a hell of alot of others I could mention, any one else agree!

[brownpimp88]

What i fail to realize is why carlos ortiz isnt top 20. He beat 6 hall of famers:
Brown
Elorde
Loi
Locce
Laguna
Ramos

[Robbi]

Oscar de la Hoya top 25???

Mate, he doesn't even deserve top 75.


If Thomas Hearns can make a top 75, then De La Hoya can.

[brooklyn1550]

I don't agree with Winky Wright behind ahead of Carlos Ortiz and Joe Frazier

[brownpimp88]

More of his wins he arguably lost though.
He arguably lost against whitaker but its so easy to make an argument that he won the fight. Being outlanded doesnt make you the loser of a fight, he threw the harder, more effective punches and those flurries helped convince the judges that he was being the agressor.

Either way, Oscar has such a great resume, it would be stupid not to rank him as an ATG.

[sweet_scientist]

What i fail to realize is why carlos ortiz isnt top 20. He beat 6 hall of famers:
Brown
Elorde
Loi
Locce
Laguna
Ramos
Top 20 is a little high, because he also lost to Loi twice, lost to Laguna, lost to lesser likes such as Lane and Busso and also won the first Ramos fight in controversial fashion.

But even so, I think he should make top 50 quite comfortably. His resume is outstanding and he was never thoroughly owned by anyone.

I have him no.34 on my list (at the moment... I'm always revising it).

[brownpimp88]

Top 20 is a little high, because he also lost to Loi twice, lost to Laguna, lost lesser likes such as Lane and Busso and also won the first Ramos fight in controversial fashion.

But even so, I think he should make top 50 quite comfortably. His resume is outstanding and he was never thoroughly owned by anyone.

I have him no.34 on my list (at the moment... I'm always revising it).
The same can be said about ruben olivares and archie moore.

[Robbi]

No way should Ezzard Charles be rated ahead of Whitaker.

[sweet_scientist]

The same can be said about ruben olivares and archie moore.

Olivares perhaps, but Archie Moore is Carlos Ortiz + an extra decade of activity. His incredible longevity puts him ahead of Carlos in my books.

[brownpimp88]

Don't forget Quartey and Sturm. And yes he is definitely top 75 in my opinion, just not as high as 21.
You gotta remember bro, he's a natural lightweight. His convincing wins over genaro hernandez, fernando vargas, gonzalez, old chavez and old camacho should be good enough, IMO hes greater than alot of hispanic fighters that get ranked above him.

[brownpimp88]

Olivares perhaps, but Archie Moore is Carlos Ortiz + an extra decade of activity. His incredible longevity puts him ahead of Carlos in my books.
You can say that but ortiz beat better fighters, archie may fought better fighters, but he didnt beat the better fighters, he lost to most of them.

[brooklyn1550]

Why is Brian Mitchell so high?

I don't like the part with Greb behind Wilde

[sweet_scientist]

You can say that but ortiz beat better fighters, archie may fought better fighters, but he didnt beat the better fighters, he lost to most of them.

He beat Harold Johnson, Yvon Durelle, Carl Bobo Olson, Joey Maxim, Jimmy Bivins, Oakland Billy Smith, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Cocoa Kid and Lloyd Mashall amongst others.

Maybe Ortiz has slightly more significant single wins, but as a body of work, you can't really claim that Moore's resume is inferior to Ortiz's. Moore's resume has incredible depth. He beat a ton of excellent fighters.

[brownpimp88]

This one I am interested in hearing, as this would not have been a problem by me. I rate Charles just higher, at #6. I think you may underrate him, his resume and wins list is among the very best of all time, he is the best LHW ever, along with being one of the best HW's, and most of his losses came well past his prime at HW.

But take a look at these wins:

Kid Matthews
Bob Satterfield
Harold Johnson
Nino Valdes
Rex Layne X2
Jimmie Bivins X5
Joey Maxim X4
Jersey Joe Walcott X2
Joe Louis
Pat Valentino
Archie Moore X3
Lloyd Marshall X3
Oakland Billy Smith X2
Charley Burley X2
Teddy Yarosz

3 wins over a peak Moore at LHW is amazing, some of the best wins in boxing history.
he lost to harold johnson and i think he lost to nino valdez too.

[sweet_scientist]

No way should Ezzard Charles be rated ahead of Whitaker.

Why not Rob?

[brownpimp88]

He beat Harold Johnson, Yvon Durelle, Carl Bobo Olson, Joey Maxim, Jimmy Bivins, Oakland Billy Smith, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Cocoa Kid and Lloyd Mashall amongst others.

Maybe Ortiz has slightly more significant single wins, but as a body of work, you can't really claim that Moore's resume is inferior to Ortiz's. Moore's resume has incredible depth. He beat a ton of excellent fighters.
Yeah but look at his losses:smoke

[sweet_scientist]

Yeah but look at his losses:smoke

Sure he lost some along the way, as did Ortiz. But Ortiz didn't face the calibre of fighters Moore did. Had he faced an Ezzard Charles level fighter, no doubt he'd be 0-3 as well.

[brownpimp88]

Lemme ask you something Brownpimp, how much do you base on the fighter themselves, what they were in the ring, as opposed to what they were on paper? I tend to be pretty much 60/40, accomplishments taking the higher road, but not that much higher, a lot of mine is still based on in-ring performance and head to head. Everyone ranks the old timers based on paper. IMO spinks would convincingly beat archie moore, however he gets ranked lower even though he was linear champ at two weight classes. Another thing, archie became champ after ezzard charles and billy conn left the division. If spinks would have fought more, lets say he beats a couple heavyweight beltholders and saad muhammad, spinks would have been top 10 IMO. He was so fuckin talented but on paper he doesnt look as good.

[sweet_scientist]

Everyone ranks the old timers based on paper. IMO spinks would convincingly beat archie moore, however he gets ranked lower even though he was linear champ at two weight classes. Another thing, archie became champ after ezzard charles and billy conn left the division. If spinks would have fought more, lets say he beats a couple heavyweight beltholders and saad muhammad, spinks would have been top 10 IMO. He was so fuckin talented but on paper he doesnt look as good.

Are you so sure about that? He couldn't even convincingly beat a more plodding version of Archie Moore (D.M. Qawi).

[cardstars]

Good effort - my criticism (of course everybody has one) is that there is no way DeLahoya should be that high (unless you also factor in fan appreciation in there); especially 10 slots higher than my man Hagler! But a solid effort and I agree with a lot of it

[brownpimp88]

Are you so sure about that? He couldn't even convincingly beat a more plodding version of Archie Moore (D.M. Qawi).
He won the fight for sure and qawi has a better chin than moore does. I really dont get why spinks didnt ight more contenders around the 79-84 era. Beating james scott, mike rossman and guys like wille edwards and saad would have helped cement his legacy as the best ever at 175

[brownpimp88]

Nah, his resume at LHW still wouldn't have rivaled Charles's.
if he remained undefeated, yeah it would. IMO, beating the same guy 5x doesnt prove anything, did spinks have to fight marvin johnson 5 times?

[brownpimp88]

Well, again, it's your opinion, but beating a top notch fighter like Moore 3 times shows how dominant and consistent you can be, as well as the other top guys like Bivins multiple times. And still, even without multiple wins over his opposition, I would say his level is still ahead of Spinks's.
not all of those wins were at light heavyweight, you have to understand this. If spinks were to have beaten saad, qawi and eddie, that would be 3 top 30 light heavyweights of all times, if he would have remained undefeated at that weight class and fought everyone in the era, it would make him superior. I think spinks beats ezzard anyways.

[dmille]

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Michael Spinks
Carlos Monzon
Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Willie Pep
Eder Jofre
Jimmy Wilde

Sam Langford

[Amsterdam]

If Thomas Hearns can make a top 75, then De La Hoya can.

No, he can't.

Hearns fought much better competition overall and has greater victories the same, is also much better H2H than DLH, who's pretty shit H2H wise.

DLH lost to Quartey and Pea IMO, also lost to Sturm. Trinidad fight was very close by way of rounds and overblown as a 'robbery', when it could have easily been a draw, if only it was a 15 rounder.:yep :good

Hoya is beyond overrated, he lost both times to Mosely, lost those fights on my card above and then even if you add Trinidad as a 'win essentially', he still always came up short, save for against Vargas and Chavez in his fights against elites.

No way does he deserve any ranking near Thomas Hearns.

[RoccoMarciano]

Ali way too high? He's #10 for god sakes. How low do you want him to go?:lol:

I'd say he should go up to 4 or so... if this was an HW only list :lol:

[sweet_scientist]

He won the fight for sure and qawi has a better chin than moore does. I really dont get why spinks didnt ight more contenders around the 79-84 era. Beating james scott, mike rossman and guys like wille edwards and saad would have helped cement his legacy as the best ever at 175
Sure he beat Qawi, but it was close, and weaker chin or not, Moore would bring more to the table than Dwight did.

Spinks just didn't have the depth during his time that Charles did to compile a better resume, even with the addition of the guys you included. Charles' record still trumps it. There was no Archie Moore level fighter for Spinks to fight. There wasn't even any Harold Johnson level fighters either.

[TBooze]

Here the lists I used to make top 100; it might help you understand how I came to some of my decisons:

Top 10 fighters from 1891-1900

10 Pedlar Palmer
9 Jack Dempsey
8 James J Corbett
7 Peter Jackson
6 Young Griffo
5 Terry McGovern
4 James J Jeffries
3 Jack McAuliffe
2 Bob Fitzsimmons
1 George Dixon

Mentions:

Billy Plimmer, , Billy Murphy, Ben Jordan, George Lavigne, Joe Walcott, Tommy Ryan, Mysterious Billy Smith, Kid McCoy and John L Sullivan

Top 10 fighters from 1901 to 1910

10 Tommy Ryan
9 Jim Driscoll
8 James J Jeffries
7 Joe Walcott
6 Stanley Ketchel
5 Terry McGovern
4 Jack Johnson
3 Sammy Langford
2 Abe Attell
1 Joe Gans

Mentions:

Owen Moran, Jimmy Walsh, Ben Jordan, Young CorbettII, Battling Nelson, Jack Sullivan, Billy Papke, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack O’Brien and Tommy Burns

Top 10 fighters 1911 to 1920

10 Jim Driscoll
9 Harry Wills
8 Jack Johnson
7 Benny Leonard
6 Freddie Welsh
5 Jack Britton
4 Ted Lewis
3 Georges Carpentier
2 Johnny Kilbane
1 Jimmy Wilde

Mentions:

Kid Williams, Pete Herman, Abe Attell, Ad Wolgast, Dixie Kid, Mike Gibbons, Les Darcy, Mike O’Dowd, Sammy Langford, Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette and Jack Dempsey


Top 10 fighters 1921 to 1930

10 Sammy Mandell
9 Harry Wills
8 Jack Dempsey
7 Al Brown
6 Tommy Loughran
5 Gene Tunney
4 Pancho Villa
3 Harry Greb
2 Mickey Walker
1 Benny Leonard

Mentions:

Jimmy Wilde, Fidel la Barba, Johnny Kilbane, Johnny Dundee, Kid Kaplan, Benny Bass, Tony Canzoneri, Bat Battalino, Pinkey Mitchell, Jackie Berg, Jack Britton, Joe Dundee, Jackie Fields, Tiger Flowers, Georges Carpentier, Jack Delaney and Maxie Rosenbloom

Top 10 fighters 1931 to 1940

10 Jimmy McLarnin
9 Jackie Berg
8 Benny Lynch
7 Billy Conn
6 Tony Canzoneri
5 Mickey Walker
4 Barney Ross
3 Maxie Rosenbloom
2 Joe Louis
1 Henry Armstrong

Mentions:

Midget Wolgast, Jackie Brown, Little Dado, Al Brown, Kid Chocolate, Baby Arizmendi, Freddie Miller, Joey Archibald, Jackie Fields, Lou Ambers, Fritzie Zivic, Charley Burley, Gorilla Jones, Marcel Thil, Freddie Steele, John Henry Lewis, Max Schmeling, Max Baer and James J Braddock

Top 10 fighters 1941 to 1950

10 Jake LaMotta
9 Rinty Monaghan
8 Sandy Saddler
7 Manuel Ortiz
6 Joe Louis
5 Ezzard Charles
4 Ike Williams
3 Charley Burley
2 Willie Pep
1 Ray Robinson

Mentions:

Jackie Paterson, Vic Toweel, Sammy Angott, Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Tippy Larkin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Tommy Bell, Tony Zale, Rocky Graziano, Marcel Cerdan, Gus Lesnevich, Freddie Mills, Archie Moore and Billy Conn

Top 10 fighters 1951 to 1960

10 Floyd Patterson
9 Carmen Bassilio
8 Jimmy Curruthers
7 Kid Gavilan
6 Rocky Marciano
5 Pascual Perez
4 Joe Brown
3 Sandy Saddler
2 Archie Moore
1 Ray Robinson

Mentions:

Dado Marino, Alphonse Halimi, Willie Pep, Hogan Kid Bassey, Davey Moore, Carlos Ortiz, Don Jordan, Bobo Olson, Gene Fullmer, Joey Maxim, Harold Johnson, Jersey Joe Walcott and Ingemar Johansson

Top 10 fighters 1961 to 1970

10 Dick Tiger
9 Nicolino Loche
8 Bob Foster
7 Jose Napoles
6 Vincente Saldivar
5 Muhammad Ali
4 Nino Benvenuti
3 Carlos Ortiz
2 Eder Jofre
1 Emile Griffith

Mentions:

Pone Kingpetch, Fighting Harada, Lionel Rose, Ruben Olivares, Davey Moore, Sugar Ramos, Flash Elorde, Ismael Laguna, Duilio Loi, Benny Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Curtis Cokes, Ki-Soo Kim, Joey Giardello, Carlos Monzon, Willie Pastrano, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier

[TBooze]

Top 10 fighters 1971 to 1979

10 Eder Jofre
9 Ruben Olivares
8 Alexis Arguello
7 Antonio Cervantes
6 Bob Foster
5 Jose Napoles
4 Carlos Zarate
3 Muhammad Ali
2 Carlos Monzon
1 Roberto Duran


Mentions:

Yuko Gushiken, Alfonso Zamora, Lupe Pintor, Wilfredo Gomez, Ernesto Marcel, Danny Lopez, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus, Guts Ishimatsu (Suzuki), Nicolino Loche, Wilfred Benitez, Pipino Cuevas, Carlos Palomino, Ray Leonard, Rodrigo Valdez, John Conteh, Victor Galindez, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and Ken Norton

Top 10 fighters 1980 to 1989

10 Roberto Duran
9 Aaron Pryor
8 Eusebio Pedroza
7 Julio Cesar Chavez
6 Larry Holmes
5 Michael Spinks
4 Tommy Hearns
3 Mike Tyson
2 Marvin Hagler
1 Ray Leonard

Mentions:

Alexis Arguello, Hector Camacho, Lupe Pintor, Sot Chitalada, Michael Nunn, Jeff Fenech, Myung Woo Yuh, Jung Koo Chang, Mike McCallum, Evander Holyfield, Pernell Whitaker, Jeff Chandler, Khoasio Galaxy, Salvador Sanchez and Azumah Nelson

Top 10 fighters 1990 to 1999

10 Julio Cesar Chavez
9 James Toney
8 Felix Trinidad
7 Naseem Hamed
6 Terry Norris
5 Pernell Whitaker
4 Evander Holyfield
3 Ricardo Lopez
2 Roy Jones Jr
1 Oscar de la Hoya

Mentions:

Virgil Hill, Nigel Benn, Saman Sorjaturong, Kostya Tszyu, Azumah Nelson, Floyd Mayweather Jr, Marco Antonio Barrera, Bernard Hopkins, Shane Mosley, Riddick Bowe, Brian Mitchell, Dariusz Michalczewski, Kaosai Galaxy, Orlando Canizales and Lennox Lewis

Top 40 Heavies

40: Cleveland Williams
39: Zora Foley
38: Tommy Burns
37: Michael Spinks
36: James Douglas
35: James Braddock
34: George Godfrey
33: Jimmy Bivens
32: Max Baer
31: Jerry Quarry
30: Tim Whitherspoon
29: Bob Fitzsimmons
28: Jack Sharkey
27: Sam McVey
26: Joe Jeanette
25: Vitali Klitschko
24: Peter Jackson
23: Ken Norton
22: Joe Walcott (Jersey)
21: Gene Tunney
20: Riddick Bowe
19: Floyd Patterson
18: Max Schmeling
17: Ezzard Charles
16: Sammy Langford
15: Harry Wills
14: James Corbett
13: Sonny Liston
12: Joe Frazier
11: Mike Tyson
10: Lennox Lewis
9 James Jeffries
8: Jack Dempsey
7: Rocky Marciano
6: Evander Holyfield
5: Larry Holmes
4: Jack Johnson
3: George Foreman
2: Joe Louis
1: Muhammad Ali

40 Dick Tiger
39 Thomas Hearns
38 Glen Johnson
37 Jose Torres
36 Fabrice Tiozzo
35 Bob Olin
34 Battling Siki
33 Marvin Johnson
32 Victor Galindez
31 Henry Maske
30 Matt Saad Muhammad (Franklin/Loach)
29 Dennis Andries
28 Antonio Tarver
27 Joey Maxim
26 Bernard Hopkins
25 Freddie Mills
24 Battling Levinsky
23 John Conteh
22 Dwight Muhammad Qawi (Braxton)
21 Billy Conn
20 Willie Pastrano
19 Jack O'Brien
18 Charles Williams
17 Harold Johnson
16 Jack Delaney
15 Virgil Hill
14 John Henry Lewis
13 Gus Lesnevich
12 Bob Fitzsimmons
11 Roy Jones
10 Dariusz Michalczewski
9 Ezzard Charles
8 Georges Carpentier
7 Bob Foster
6 Maxie Rosenbloom
5 Gene Tunney
4 Sammy Langford
3 Tommy Loughran
2 Michael Spinks
1 Archie Moore

[sweet_scientist]

No, he can't.

Hearns fought much better competition overall and has greater victories the same, is also much better H2H than DLH, who's pretty shit H2H wise.

DLH lost to Quartey and Pea IMO, also lost to Sturm. Trinidad fight was very close by way of rounds and overblown as a 'robbery', when it could have easily been a draw, if only it was a 15 rounder.:yep :good

Hoya is beyond overrated, he lost both times to Mosely, lost those fights on my card above and then even if you add Trinidad as a 'win essentially', he still always came up short, save for against Vargas and Chavez in his fights against elites.

No way does he deserve any ranking near Thomas Hearns.
No doubt Hearns ranks higher than DLH, but you're being a little harsh on him. I mean, you can make a reasonable argument that he beat Whitaker, Quartey, Trinidad and Mosley. Being competitve with those guys in itself, along with a competitve fight with Mayweather past his prime is something which merits a fairly high ranking imo, no matter how you saw the outcomes of those fights.

That said, I have him about 65th all time at the moment. 80th for him isn't rediculous, but then again, either is 50th.

[TBooze]

All-time Super Middleweights:
1 Joe Calzaghe
2 Chong Pal Park
3 Roy Jones Jr
4 Nigel Benn
5 Chris Eubank
6 Steve Collins
7 Sven Ottke
8 James Toney
9 Frankie Liles
10 Byron Mitchell

Mentions: Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Thulani Malinga, Charles Brewster, Richie Woodhall, Eric Lucas and Mikkel Kessler

Middleweights:

40 Paul Pender
39 Thomas Hearns
38 Rocky Graziano
37 Randy Turpin
36 Mike McCallum
35 Georges Carpentier
34 Les Darcy
33 Al McCoy
32 Fred Apostolio
31 Sambu Kalambay
30 Tiger Flowers
29 Gene Fullmer
28 Rodrigo Valdez
27 Dick Tiger
26 Bob Fitzsimmons
25 James Toney
24 Michael Nunn
23 Jack 'Twin' Sullivan
22 Mike O'Dowd
21 Jake LaMotta
20 Freddie Steele
19 Marcel Thil
18 Gorilla Jones
17 Sammy Langford
16 Emile Griffith
15 Joey Giardello
14 Kid McCoy
13 Nino Benvenuti
12 Tony Zale
11 Marcel Cerdan
10 Roy Jones
9 Jack Dempsey
8 Harry Greb
7 Marvin Hagler
6 Bernard Hopkins
5 Mickey Walker
4 Charley Burley
3 Stanley Ketchel
2 Ray Robinson
1 Carlos Monzon

Mentions:
Young CorbettIII
'Bobo' Olson
Carmen Basilio
Terry Downes
Vito Antuofermo
Alan Minter
Iran Barkley
Julian Jackson
Gerald McClellan
Reggie Johnson
Felix Trinidad

Junior Middleweights

10 Sandro Mazzinghi
9 Gianfranco Rosi
8 Wilfred Benitez
7 Ray Leonard
6 Emile Griffith
5 Terry Norris
4 Felix Trinidad
3 Winky Wright
2 Mike McCallum
1 Tommy Hearns

Mentions: Denny Moyer, Nino Benvenuti, Ki Soo Kim, Koichi Wajima, Ayub Kalule, Maurice Hope, Roberto Duran, Julian Jackson, John David Jackson, Julio Cesar Vazquez, Harry Simon, Oscar de la Hoya and Shane Mosley

Top 10 welters

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearns
10 Carmen Bassillo

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, 'Mysterious' Billy Smith, 'The original' Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted 'Kid' Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny 'Kid' Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley

Junior Welterweights:


10 Floyd Mayweather Jr
9 Ricky Hatton
8 Oscar de la Hoya
7 Meldrick Taylor
6 Julio Cesar Chavez
5 Nicolino Loche
4 Kostya Tszyu
3 Aaron Pryor
2 Wilfred Benitez
1 Antonio Cervantes

Mentions: Pinkey Mitchell, Jackie Berg, Mushy Callahan, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Carlos Ortiz, Duilio Loi, Saoul Mamby, Patrizio Oliva, Roger Mayweather, Buddy McGirt, Pernell Whitaker, Frankie Randall, Juan Martin Coggi, Vince Phillips, Zab Zab Judah and Sharmba Mitchell

[TBooze]

Lightweight

10 Sammy Angott
9 Julio Cesar Chavez
8 Bob Montgomery
7 Ike Williams
6 Battling Nelson
5 Joe Gans
4 Pernell Whitaker
3 Henry Armstrong
2 Benny Leonard
1 Roberto Duran

Mentions: Jack McAuliffe, George Lavigne, Frank Erne, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, Beau Jack, Jimmy Carter, Carlos Ortiz, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus, Guts Ishimatsu (Ishimatsu Suzuki), Alexis Arguello, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez, Hector Camacho Snr, Oscar de la Hoya, Shane Mosley, Steve Johnson, Jose Luis Castillo and Floyd Mayweather Jr

Junior Lightweights:

10 Manny Paciquao
9 Johnny Dundee
8 Floyd Mayweather Jr
7 Brian Mitchell
6 Sandy Saddler
5 Kid Chocolate
4 Azumah Nelson
3 Alexis Arguello
2 Flash Elorde
1 Julio Cesar Chavez

Mentions: Alfredo Escalera, Sammy Serrano, Bazooka Limon, Cornelius Boza-Edwards, Bobby Chacon, Roger Mayweather, Hector Camacho, Rocky Lockbridge, Tony Lopez, John John Molina, Genaro Hernandez, Oscar de la Hoya, Gabby Ruelas, Arturo Gatti, Acelino Freitas, Diego Corrales, Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales and Manny Paciquao

Top 10 feathers

The Featherweights are an incredibly talented group of fighters; my all-time list goes:

10: Salvador Sanchez
9: Joey Archibald
8: Azumah Nelson
7: Johnny Kilbane
6: George Dixon
5: Henry Armstrong
4; Eusebio Pedroza
3: Abe Attell
2: Willie Pep
1: Sandy Saddler

Honorary mentions: Young Griffo, Terry McGovern, Jim Driscoll, Bat Battalino, Hogan 'Kid' Bassey, Davey Moore, Sugar Ramos, Vicente Saldivar, Eder Jofre, Antonio Esparragoza, Naseem Hamed and Marco Antonio Barrera

Mentions: Ben Jordan, Young Corbett II, Johnny Dundee, Kid Kaplan, Tony Canzoneri, Kid Chocolate, Baby Arizmendi, Chalky Wright, Howard Winstone, Alexis Arguello, Danny Lopez, Juan LaPorte, Jeff Fenech, Marcos Villasana, Tom Johnson, Kevin Kelley, Eloy Rojas, Manuel Medina, Wilfred Vazquez, Erik Morales, and Manny Pacquiao.

Super Bantamweights

10 Kennedy McKinney
9 Seung Hoon Lee
8 Manny Paciquao
7 Junior Jones
6 Vuyani Bungu
5 Marco Antonio Barrera
4 Erik Morales
3 Jeff Fenech
2 Daniel Zaragoza
1 Wilfredo Gomez

Mentions: Welcome Ncita, Paul Banke, Wilfredo Vazquez, Raul Perez, Tracy Harris Patterson, Antonio Cermeno, Lehlohonolo Ledwaba, Bones Adams, Oscar Larios and Israel Vazquez

Bantamweights

10 Kaosai Galaxy
9 Lupe Pintor
8 Jeff Chandler
7 Al Brown
6 Jimmy Carruthers
5 Ruben Olivares
4 Manuel Ortiz
3 Eder Jofre
2 Terry McGovern
1 Carlos Zarate

Mentions: George Dixon, Billy Plimmer, Pedlar Palmer, Jimmy Walsh, Kid Williams, Pete Herman, Sixto Escobar, Vic Toweel, Alphonse Halimi, Lionel Rose, Alfonso Zamora, Jeff Fenech, Gilberto Roman, Miguel Happy Lora, Orlando Canizales, Raul Perez, Sung Il Moon and Rafael Marquez

Flyweight

10 Fidel La Barba
9 Midget Wolgast
8 Little Dado
7 Myung Woo Yuh
6 Jung Koo Chang
5 Pascual Perez
4 Rinty Monaghan
3 Ricardo Lopez
2 Pancho Villa
1 Jimmy Wilde

Mentions: Jackie Brown, Benny Lynch, Small Montana, Jackie Paterson, Pone Kingpetch, Fighting Harada, Miguel Canto, Santos Laciar, Hilario Zapata, Sot Chitalada, Humberto Gonzales, Michael Carbajal, Saman Sorjaturong and Yuri Arbachakov

[Senya13]

Top 10 fighters from 1891-1900

10 Pedlar Palmer
9 Jack Dempsey
8 James J Corbett
7 Peter Jackson
6 Young Griffo
5 Terry McGovern
4 James J Jeffries
3 Jack McAuliffe
2 Bob Fitzsimmons
1 George Dixon

Mentions:

Billy Plimmer, , Billy Murphy, Ben Jordan, George Lavigne, Joe Walcott, Tommy Ryan, Mysterious Billy Smith, Kid McCoy and John L Sullivan
Dempsey has no place at top10 in 1890's, he was past it by late 1880's already.
Palmer was a very talented fighter, but placing him ahead of Lavigne, Walcott, Ryan, Erne, McCoy, Gans? This choice also makes Plimmer in 'mentions' very questionable too.
Peter Jackson imho hasn't really done enough in the 1890's to deserve a top10 placement.
Jeffries at #4 is too high, he should be near the end of top 10.
Griffo out of top 10, Lavigne and Ryan have more merit to be ahead of him.
Fitzsimmons at #2 is too high, near the end of top 10 suits him better, and even that only because he win a heavyweight champ title.

[sweet_scientist]

Dempsey has no place at top10 in 1890's, he was past it by late 1880's already.
Palmer was a very talented fighter, but placing him ahead of Lavigne, Walcott, Ryan, Erne, McCoy, Gans? This choice also makes Plimmer in 'mentions' very questionable too.
Peter Jackson imho hasn't really done enough in the 1890's to deserve a top10 placement.
Jeffries at #4 is too high, he should be near the end of top 10.
Griffo out of top 10, Lavigne and Ryan have more merit to be ahead of him.
Fitzsimmons at #2 is too high, near the end of top 10 suits him better, and even that only because he win a heavyweight champ title.
Agree with most of what you've said, but didn't Griffo (by most reports) get robbed against Lavigne (and McAuliffe for that matter)? Even if the point is contentious, a natural feather holding his own against two of the best lightweights of the decade should in and of itself merit him a spot in the top ten for the decade.

[Senya13]

Lavigne had the better of the first fight with Griffo and nearly stopped him, if I'm not mistaken, as well as had the better of the 2nd fight. McAuliffe's fight by fact was a win for Jack.

[sweet_scientist]

Lavigne had the better of the first fight with Griffo and nearly stopped him, if I'm not mistaken, as well as had the better of the 2nd fight. McAuliffe's fight by fact was a win for Jack.
Are you relying on certain articles from the time of their fights when you say that?

I've seen it said in a couple of places that many thought Griffo got the better of both Lavigne and McAuliffe.

I don't have any old articles on their fights, but two ready places where this is said is in Mike Casey articles:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Senya13]

Casey gives Fleisher's Pictorial History (very unreliable source) and boxrec as sources for one of these articles.


Newswire for 1st Lavigne-Griffo fight:

EIGHT-ROUND DRAW.

Chicago, Ill., Feb. 10.--Young Griffo and George Lavigne of Saginaw, Mich., fought an eight-round battle at the second regiment armory to-night without gore or knock-out, ending in a draw. The fight, which was expected to be a lively one, developed into a simple boxing match, ending slightly in the Michigan boy's favor, with but little hot work, and 2000 spectators were sadly disappointed. George Siler acted as referee, with "Mysterious" Billy Smith behind Lavigne and Sam Fitzpatrick seconding Griffo.


another newswire

Lavigne Bests Griffo.

Chicago, Feb. 10.--George Lavigne of Saginaw, Mich., otherwise known as the kid, proved himself more than a match tonight for Albert Griffith, or Griffo, the Australian who has been in this city for nearly a year in search of the scalps of American pugilists of his class. Lavigne nearly knocked out his man in the seventh but failed to follow it up. It was declared a draw.


Chicago Tribune's header of the article (I'm not ready to be paying for it):

GRIFFO'S CLOSE CALL.
LAVIGNE GIVES THE AUSTRALIAN HIS HANDS FULL. The Aspirant for Dixon's Scalp Shows Up Out of Condition and Nearly Loses in Consequence--Is Fought All Over the Ring in the Last Round by the Lad from Michigan--Boxing Bouts at the Gymnasium of the Chicago Athletic Association. Griffe Has His Hands Full. Griffe Is the Aggressor.

Abstract (Document Summary)
"Young" Griffe had a close call from de feat at the Lake-Front armory last night in his eight round go with George Lavigne.

[Boro chris]

No, he can't.

Hearns fought much better competition overall and has greater victories the same, is also much better H2H than DLH, who's pretty shit H2H wise.

DLH lost to Quartey and Pea IMO, also lost to Sturm. Trinidad fight was very close by way of rounds and overblown as a 'robbery', when it could have easily been a draw, if only it was a 15 rounder.:yep :good

Hoya is beyond overrated, he lost both times to Mosely, lost those fights on my card above and then even if you add Trinidad as a 'win essentially', he still always came up short, save for against Vargas and Chavez in his fights against elites.

No way does he deserve any ranking near Thomas Hearns.

I agree with you that Oscar is nowhere near Hearns, but I felt he beat Mosely 2nd time out by the proverbial mile. One of the worst decisions I've witnessed.

[Senya13]

Newswire about the 2nd Lavigne-Griffo fight:

...
For the first few rounds Griffo had the best of it and landed some telling blows, but before the tenth round was called Lavigne braced up and from that time on he gave the Australian a lively time. In the fifteenth Griffo was obliged to turn his back on his adversary to avoid punishment. When the last round, the twentieth, was called Lavigne showed up as fresh as ever, while the Australian was evidently distressed, although he was still in good fighting trim. Some hot work was seen in this round and both men were on their feet fighting when the gong was rung.

The referee declared the bout a draw, though many good judges considered that Lavigne was entitled to the decision.

[Senya13]

One more report about 2nd fight.

DECLARED A DRAW.
---
Result of the Fight Between Griffo and Lavigne.

Mazpeth, N. J. Oct. 12.--The fight between Young Griffo, of Australia, and "Kid" lavigne, of Saginaw, Mich., was declared a draw tonight after 20 hard fought rounds.

Just after the principals had come upon the platform, John L. Sullivan had to make a speech in which he said this was the last year he would ever put on the gloves.

Griffo took the aggressive in the first round, but was staggered by a hard blow in the second. Lavignewas getting the best of it up to the ninth, but Griffo was making a game defense until the tenth, when he came up winded and did some hugging in the next three rounds to avoid punishment. Still he came to the scratch in the fourteenth, but in the next two rounds was driven to the ropes.

In the next three rounds Griffo needed wind and played for it, while Lavigne worked for his heart until the end of the eighteenth when he drove the Australian into his corner and made him groggy with a shower of blows.

In the twentieth Griffo clinched until time was called. Lavigne had demonstrated his superiority clear through. The referee declared it a draw, probably because both men were on their feet at the finish.

[Minotauro]

Gans is to low and Ezzard Charles should be higher then Burley and Moore he is 5-0 against them and has better wins.

[RoccoMarciano]

What's funny is your name, and you think Ali is overrated. :lol:

What? I said he should be rated higher than 10th place, didn't I? :lol:

[sweet_scientist]

Casey gives Fleisher's Pictorial History (very unreliable source) and boxrec as sources for one of these articles.


Newswire for 1st Lavigne-Griffo fight:

EIGHT-ROUND DRAW.

Chicago, Ill., Feb. 10.--Young Griffo and George Lavigne of Saginaw, Mich., fought an eight-round battle at the second regiment armory to-night without gore or knock-out, ending in a draw. The fight, which was expected to be a lively one, developed into a simple boxing match, ending slightly in the Michigan boy's favor, with but little hot work, and 2000 spectators were sadly disappointed. George Siler acted as referee, with "Mysterious" Billy Smith behind Lavigne and Sam Fitzpatrick seconding Griffo.


another newswire

Lavigne Bests Griffo.

Chicago, Feb. 10.--George Lavigne of Saginaw, Mich., otherwise known as the kid, proved himself more than a match tonight for Albert Griffith, or Griffo, the Australian who has been in this city for nearly a year in search of the scalps of American pugilists of his class. Lavigne nearly knocked out his man in the seventh but failed to follow it up. It was declared a draw.


Chicago Tribune's header of the article (I'm not ready to be paying for it):

GRIFFO'S CLOSE CALL.
LAVIGNE GIVES THE AUSTRALIAN HIS HANDS FULL. The Aspirant for Dixon's Scalp Shows Up Out of Condition and Nearly Loses in Consequence--Is Fought All Over the Ring in the Last Round by the Lad from Michigan--Boxing Bouts at the Gymnasium of the Chicago Athletic Association. Griffe Has His Hands Full. Griffe Is the Aggressor.

Abstract (Document Summary)
"Young" Griffe had a close call from de feat at the Lake-Front armory last night in his eight round go with George Lavigne.



Newswire about the 2nd Lavigne-Griffo fight:

...
For the first few rounds Griffo had the best of it and landed some telling blows, but before the tenth round was called Lavigne braced up and from that time on he gave the Australian a lively time. In the fifteenth Griffo was obliged to turn his back on his adversary to avoid punishment. When the last round, the twentieth, was called Lavigne showed up as fresh as ever, while the Australian was evidently distressed, although he was still in good fighting trim. Some hot work was seen in this round and both men were on their feet fighting when the gong was rung.

The referee declared the bout a draw, though many good judges considered that Lavigne was entitled to the decision.



One more report about 2nd fight.

DECLARED A DRAW.
---
Result of the Fight Between Griffo and Lavigne.

Mazpeth, N. J. Oct. 12.--The fight between Young Griffo, of Australia, and "Kid" lavigne, of Saginaw, Mich., was declared a draw tonight after 20 hard fought rounds.

Just after the principals had come upon the platform, John L. Sullivan had to make a speech in which he said this was the last year he would ever put on the gloves.

Griffo took the aggressive in the first round, but was staggered by a hard blow in the second. Lavignewas getting the best of it up to the ninth, but Griffo was making a game defense until the tenth, when he came up winded and did some hugging in the next three rounds to avoid punishment. Still he came to the scratch in the fourteenth, but in the next two rounds was driven to the ropes.

In the next three rounds Griffo needed wind and played for it, while Lavigne worked for his heart until the end of the eighteenth when he drove the Australian into his corner and made him groggy with a shower of blows.

In the twentieth Griffo clinched until time was called. Lavigne had demonstrated his superiority clear through. The referee declared it a draw, probably because both men were on their feet at the finish.


Fair enough, those accounts seem more literal and analytic than the ones provided by Casey (through Flesicher), so I'm willing to go by them.

Do you have any sources on the McAuliffe fight which contradict Casey?

[RoccoMarciano]

He is about 5x better than Marciano any way you slice it, and deserves to be about 8 spots ahead of him on a HW list and about 60 ahead of him at least on a P4P list.
What's this fascination you have with Marciano? Are you afraid that he may have actually been better than some of the HWs you like? :lol:

[RoccoMarciano]

Nope, I just noticed your avatar and your lame post about Ali being #4 at HW, and noticed you were a Marciano fan, and hence probably had him over Ali.

I don't recall ever stating in this thread that I rate Marciano over Ali - even though I do. I also rate Louis ahead of both Marciano and Clay.

[George W Hedge]

T Booze,
Ali, srl, louis, jc.chavez & whitaker are way too low imo.

erik morales & barrera should definetely make your list especially when guys like trinidad are on it.
morales & barrera would punish trinidad if the same weight (p4p I guess)

:good

[dmille]

Top 100 of all-time (9th October 2007)

The numbers in brackets were places where I placed my top 35 of all-time in April 2005

22 Georges Carpentier (4)
21 Oscar de la Hoya (22)
20 Pernell Whitaker (23)
19 Julio Cesar Chavez (15)
18 Sammy Langford (9)
17 Barney Ross
16 Ray Leonard (13)
15 Carlos Monzon (12)
14 Ezzard Charles (17)
13 Bob Fitzsimmons (20)
12 Benny Leonard (16)
11 Charley Burley (10)
10 Muhammad Ali (11)
9 Harry Grebb (18)
8 Jimmy Wilde (7)
7 Sandy Saddler (5)
6 Willie Pep (6)
5 Mickey Walker (14)
4 Archie Moore (8)
3 Roberto Duran (3)
2 Henry Armstrong (2)
1 Ray Robinson (1)

What have Moore and Walker done since 2005 to cause such an elevation? What losses since 05 caused you to drop Carpentier and Langford?

[TBooze]

What have Moore and Walker done since 2005 to cause such an elevation? What losses since 05 caused you to drop Carpentier and Langford?

I have read up on Moore and Walker and to a degree peer pressure has robbed Carpentier; Langford got stung mainly on what I read in in unforgivable blackness

[mattdonnellon]

great work. Having occasionally done similar ratings i appreciate the methodology and consistency of your ratings. Of course i disagree with a whole heap of your list, we all have our biases! However I was surprised to see we share the same top 13 HW's(different sequence obviously!) and 35 of your top 40. Only Cleveland Williams would I take any issue with.
In your general ratings I think Moore too high, Greb and Fitz too low. I agree with the other posters, Charles over Moore. The only major quib i have is Nonpareil Jack Dempsey, read up on him, he was not nearly as good as the Irish-Americans cracked him up to be, he was good-but not that good.

[dmille]

I have read up on Moore and Walker and to a degree peer pressure has robbed Carpentier; Langford got stung mainly on what I read in in unforgivable blackness

Why didn't you read up on them before you assembled your original rating?

[dmille]

Top 10 feathers

The Featherweights are an incredibly talented group of fighters; my all-time list goes:

10: Salvador Sanchez
9: Joey Archibald
8: Azumah Nelson
7: Johnny Kilbane
6: George Dixon
5: Henry Armstrong
4; Eusebio Pedroza
3: Abe Attell
2: Willie Pep
1: Sandy Saddler

Honorary mentions: Young Griffo, Terry McGovern, Jim Driscoll, Bat Battalino, Hogan 'Kid' Bassey, Davey Moore, Sugar Ramos, Vicente Saldivar, Eder Jofre, Antonio Esparragoza, Naseem Hamed and Marco Antonio Barrera

Mentions: Ben Jordan, Young Corbett II, Johnny Dundee, Kid Kaplan, Tony Canzoneri, Kid Chocolate, Baby Arizmendi, Chalky Wright, Howard Winstone, Alexis Arguello, Danny Lopez, Juan LaPorte, Jeff Fenech, Marcos Villasana, Tom Johnson, Kevin Kelley, Eloy Rojas, Manuel Medina, Wilfred Vazquez, Erik Morales, and Manny Pacquiao.

A guy can compile a record of 210-31-9 1 NC with 11 title defenses and you don't have him in your top 40?

[dmille]

10 Sammy Angott
9 Julio Cesar Chavez
8 Bob Montgomery
7 Ike Williams
6 Battling Nelson
5 Joe Gans
4 Pernell Whitaker
3 Henry Armstrong
2 Benny Leonard
1 Roberto Duran

Mentions: Jack McAuliffe, George Lavigne, Frank Erne, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, Beau Jack, Jimmy Carter, Carlos Ortiz, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus, Guts Ishimatsu (Ishimatsu Suzuki), Alexis Arguello, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez, Hector Camacho Snr, Oscar de la Hoya, Shane Mosley, Steve Johnson, Jose Luis Castillo and Floyd Mayweather Jr

Angott with his three measly defenses is in your top ten; while Old Bones, with his 11 defenses, doesn't even merit an honorable mention?

[Senya13]

Griffo got the better of McAuliffe, the best Jack could hope if not for circumstances would be a draw, and that'd be very favorable to him. But he was clearly past his best by this point. He had been talking about quiting the ring for some time, and he was so popular with everyone, that the referee simply didn't want to take responsibility for spoiling his perfect record with a loss, because of Jack's staying in the ring longer than he should. Although McAuliffe needed yet another "hint" to realize he was no longer the same fighter he had been before, even if he trained down to perfect shape (getting nearly stopped in the next fight, when the police interfered). Although all the same he attempted a comeback in a year and a half later. Speaking of which, Fleisher in his book about McAuliffe doesn't even mention this comeback, stating that McAulliffe retired for good shortly after Ziegler fight and refused to come back even for big money, except for an exhibition with Lavigne in 1896. But oh well, that's Fleisher with his disdain for facts.

[Senya13]

Fair enough, those accounts seem more literal and analytic than the ones provided by Casey (through Flesicher), so I'm willing to go by them.
I do have one other report that gives the 2nd fight to Griffo though, but it's longer than those two and I'm too lazy to type it here. As is often the case, it's difficult to figure out the winner in a close bout like this, it depends on the writer, what style and criteria he likes better to decide the winner. As an example, 2nd fight between Griffo and Gans (15-round draw). One source says Griffo "simply smothered Gans by his cleverness and in two of the rounds had the colored boy on the edge of the Queer street", the other says "Gans staggered Griffo with a left in the second. ... Gans opened the ninth round fast and hard and had the better of it. In the eleventh Gans looked like a winner. Twice during the round he staggered Griffo". Who to believe about who was better in this bout? The first meeting between them, supposedly Griffo contracted not to put Gans away, and thus held back, yet local source: "Gans hit Griffo much oftener than he was struck himself. Griffo let go several vicious blows, but they all fell short." What to think about this fight as well then? I'm seeing contradictory reports in that time span pretty often, sometimes they claim completely the opposite things, as if the reporters were seeing two different fights.

[TBooze]

Griffo got the better of McAuliffe, the best Jack could hope if not for circumstances would be a draw, and that'd be very favorable to him. But he was clearly past his best by this point. He had been talking about quiting the ring for some time, and he was so popular with everyone, that the referee simply didn't want to take responsibility for spoiling his perfect record with a loss, because of Jack's staying in the ring longer than he should. Although McAuliffe needed yet another "hint" to realize he was no longer the same fighter he had been before, even if he trained down to perfect shape (getting nearly stopped in the next fight, when the police interfered). Although all the same he attempted a comeback in a year and a half later. Speaking of which, Fleisher in his book about McAuliffe doesn't even mention this comeback, stating that McAulliffe retired for good shortly after Ziegler fight and refused to come back even for big money, except for an exhibition with Lavigne in 1896. But oh well, that's Fleisher with his disdain for facts.

Got to love this forum, great debate Senya13 with sweet_science, I have learnt more in this debate, than I have in the last three months of the forum:good

[Senya13]

Since we touched this subject. The referee and the people sitting around the ring can sometimes see completely different fights. Some examples:

1960-06-10 Sugar Ray Robinson L-SD15 Paul Pender
Referee 146-144 = +2 Robinson, one of the judges 138-149 = +11 Pender.

1958-03-25 Sugar Ray Robinson W-SD15 Carmen Basilio
Referee 66-69 = +3 Basilio, Judge 72-64 = +8 Robinson.

1942-05-28 Sugar Ray Robinson W-SD10 Marty Servo
Referee 5-3-2 = +2 Servo, judge 9-1 = +8 Robinson.

1952-02-04 Kid Gavialn W-SD15 Bobby Dykes
Referee 140-143 = +3 Dykes, judge 145-139 = +6 Gavilan.

[Senya13]

But then again, sometimes even two judges sitting at ringside see something that cannot be explained rationally.

1934-05-28 Barney Ross W-SD15 Jimmy McLarnin
The official scoring ws 9-1-5 (Judge Tom O'Rourke) for McLarnin and 11-2-2 (Referee Eddie Forbes) and 13-1-1 (Judge Harold Barnes) for Ross.

One ringside judge +8 McLarnin, another ringside judge +12 Ross, WTF?

[TBooze]

Since we touched this subject. The referee and the people sitting around the ring can sometimes see completely different fights. Some examples:

1960-06-10 Sugar Ray Robinson L-SD15 Paul Pender
Referee 146-144 = +2 Robinson, one of the judges 138-149 = +11 Pender.

1958-03-25 Sugar Ray Robinson W-SD15 Carmen Basilio
Referee 66-69 = +3 Basilio, Judge 72-64 = +8 Robinson.

1942-05-28 Sugar Ray Robinson W-SD10 Marty Servo
Referee 5-3-2 = +2 Servo, judge 9-1 = +8 Robinson.

1952-02-04 Kid Gavialn W-SD15 Bobby Dykes
Referee 140-143 = +3 Dykes, judge 145-139 = +6 Gavilan.

Personally I think it is very dangerous for a ref to score a fight. The sole purpose of the referee should be the safety of the fighters, they should not have the added responsibility of trying to score the fight as well.

[mattdonnellon]

I agree ref's should not judge fights. I am a qualified IABA and occasionally all 3 or 5 judges see a fight completely differently. I use to think this was wrong but now believe it to be often ok as scoring in boxing is subjective (but not arbitary) and it is quiet ok for judges to look for different qualities in the work of the fighters. That's why there are multiple judges.

[sweet_scientist]

Griffo got the better of McAuliffe, the best Jack could hope if not for circumstances would be a draw, and that'd be very favorable to him. But he was clearly past his best by this point. He had been talking about quiting the ring for some time, and he was so popular with everyone, that the referee simply didn't want to take responsibility for spoiling his perfect record with a loss, because of Jack's staying in the ring longer than he should. Although McAuliffe needed yet another "hint" to realize he was no longer the same fighter he had been before, even if he trained down to perfect shape (getting nearly stopped in the next fight, when the police interfered). Although all the same he attempted a comeback in a year and a half later. Speaking of which, Fleisher in his book about McAuliffe doesn't even mention this comeback, stating that McAulliffe retired for good shortly after Ziegler fight and refused to come back even for big money, except for an exhibition with Lavigne in 1896. But oh well, that's Fleisher with his disdain for facts.

What signalled that he was clearly past his best by the time of the Griffo fight? Had he shown signs before hand that he was fading? If so what were they? Or did he get old overnight?

He was nearly stopped right after fighting Griffo but he snapped his hand there, so it was injury more than general deterioration that did him in.

[sweet_scientist]

I do have one other report that gives the 2nd fight to Griffo though, but it's longer than those two and I'm too lazy to type it here.

I'd be willing to go with the more detailed account more often than not, but then again it depends what kind of detail it is. If it's just verbiage then forget it, but if its concise and tracks the fight closely more often than not it would have to be given precedence over other accounts. Depends on the writer's reputation too of course....

As is often the case, it's difficult to figure out the winner in a close bout like this, it depends on the writer, what style and criteria he likes better to decide the winner. As an example, 2nd fight between Griffo and Gans (15-round draw). One source says Griffo "simply smothered Gans by his cleverness and in two of the rounds had the colored boy on the edge of the Queer street", the other says "Gans staggered Griffo with a left in the second. ... Gans opened the ninth round fast and hard and had the better of it. In the eleventh Gans looked like a winner. Twice during the round he staggered Griffo". Who to believe about who was better in this bout? The first meeting between them, supposedly Griffo contracted not to put Gans away, and thus held back, yet local source: "Gans hit Griffo much oftener than he was struck himself. Griffo let go several vicious blows, but they all fell short." What to think about this fight as well then? I'm seeing contradictory reports in that time span pretty often, sometimes they claim completely the opposite things, as if the reporters were seeing two different fights.


Since we touched this subject. The referee and the people sitting around the ring can sometimes see completely different fights. Some examples:

1960-06-10 Sugar Ray Robinson L-SD15 Paul Pender
Referee 146-144 = +2 Robinson, one of the judges 138-149 = +11 Pender.

1958-03-25 Sugar Ray Robinson W-SD15 Carmen Basilio
Referee 66-69 = +3 Basilio, Judge 72-64 = +8 Robinson.

1942-05-28 Sugar Ray Robinson W-SD10 Marty Servo
Referee 5-3-2 = +2 Servo, judge 9-1 = +8 Robinson.

1952-02-04 Kid Gavialn W-SD15 Bobby Dykes
Referee 140-143 = +3 Dykes, judge 145-139 = +6 Gavilan.



Yeah its all pretty problematic, and still so even when we have the fight footage right before our eyes. It often comes down to differences about fundamental values one holds and there's really no altering it. There's enough room for interpretation in the rules and criteria of the sport to come to some pretty wild but not altogether insane conclusions sometimes.

[mattdonnellon]

Top 20 with a difference.
Below is my top 20 but with a difference, its extracted from my top 200 HW's.
Tunney would be no.1 but i dont consider him a l/h. Roy Jones had only one fight at HW so i didnt consider him.

fitz
langford
charles
moore
spinks
burns
gibbons
bivins
norfolk
greb
mccoy
clarke
choynski
conn
loughran
o'brien
johnson
dillon
childs
root

[mattdonnellon]

i'm some plonker, i should have posted this elsewhere!

[Senya13]

What signalled that he was clearly past his best by the time of the Griffo fight? Had he shown signs before hand that he was fading? If so what were they? Or did he get old overnight?
The problem here is that in several fights prior to meeting with Griffo and in Griffo fight too McAuliffe showed up out of shape. It is mentioned vs Ryan, vs Leeds, vs Myer (correct date for this fight is December 10, not December 16 as boxrec and CBZ list it). Against Griffo Jack weighed as a welterweight (Griffo himself weighed as a lightweight, also being not in very good shape). So it may be somewhat difficult and subjective to deside what it was, him not training properly or being on the downslide. My opinion is the 2nd one.

[TBooze]

Just bumping to show my old list, and the grief I got back then as well!!! ;)

[Bill Butcher]

Top 100 of all-time (9th October 2007)

The numbers in brackets were places where I placed my top 35 of all-time in April 2005

100 Manny Paciquao
99 Harry Wills
98 Kid McCoy
97 Jeff Fenech
96 Carlos Ortiz
95 Jimmy McLarnin
94 Tony Zale
93 Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis
92 Freddie Welsh
91 Dick Tiger
90 Jeff Chandler
89 James J Corbett
88 Brian Mitchell
87 Wilfredo Gomez
86 Kid Chocolate
85 Marcel Cerdan
84 Joe Frazier
83 Winky Wright
82 Kostya Tszyu
81 Jimmy Carruthers
80 Jack McAuliffe
79 Rinty Monaghan
78 Nicolino Loche
77 Mike Tyson
76 Bob Montgomery
75 Lennox Lewis
74 Young Griffo
73 Aaron Pryor
72 Nino Benvenuti
71 Jim Driscoll
70 Salvador Sanchez
69 Mike McCallum
68 Jack Dempsey
67 Flash Elorde
66 Wilfred Benitez
65 Rocky Marciano
64 Felix Trinidad
63 Abe Attell
62 Antonio Cervantes
61 James J Jeffries
60 Al Brown
59 Eusebio Pedroza
58 Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
57 Evander Holyfield
56 Bob Foster
55 Larry Holmes
54 Stanley Ketchel (19)
53 Michael Spinks
52 Azumah Nelson
51 Ruben Olivares (32)
50 Jose Napoles
49 Pascual Perez
48 Manuel Ortiz
47 Ike Williams
46 Roy Jones Jr (35)
45 Maxie Rosenbloom
44 Jack Johnson
43 Floyd Mayweather Jr
42 Tony Canzoneri
41 George Foreman (34)
40 Eder Jofre (26)
39 Johnny Kilbane
38 Kid Gavilan
37 Tommy Loughran
36 Ricardo Lopez
35 Alexis Arguello (24)
34 Bernard Hopkins
33 Carlos Zarate (25)
32 (Barbados) Joe Walcott
31 Tommy Hearns (31)
30 Marvin Hagler (30)
29 Pancho Villa (21)
28 Emile Griffith
27 Joe Louis (29)
26 Joe Gans (33)
25 Gene Tunney (28)
24 Terry McGovern
23 George Dixon (27)
22 Georges Carpentier (4)
21 Oscar de la Hoya (22)
20 Pernell Whitaker (23)
19 Julio Cesar Chavez (15)
18 Sammy Langford (9)
17 Barney Ross
16 Ray Leonard (13)
15 Carlos Monzon (12)
14 Ezzard Charles (17)
13 Bob Fitzsimmons (20)
12 Benny Leonard (16)
11 Charley Burley (10)
10 Muhammad Ali (11)
9 Harry Grebb (18)
8 Jimmy Wilde (7)
7 Sandy Saddler (5)
6 Willie Pep (6)
5 Mickey Walker (14)
4 Archie Moore (8)
3 Roberto Duran (3)
2 Henry Armstrong (2)
1 Ray Robinson (1)

Morales & Barrera should be on the list, they were better than fighters like Trinidad IMHO who you have ranked at 64.

[anarci]

Morales & Barrera should be on the list, they were better than fighters like Trinidad IMHO who you have ranked at 64.
:good Agreed and not having Ruben Olivares is a glaring omission.

[El Bujia]

:good Agreed and not having Ruben Olivares is a glaring omission.
Why not have a peak at the list first before you start whining? Or at least get some reading glasses.

[anarci]

Why not have a peak at the list first before you start whining? Or at least get some reading glasses.

Didnt see Olivares u snot nose lol..... Hey Bujia dont you have some u tube fights to study up on?? Trying watching some more Barrera and maybe youll admit that he should be on the this list too.

[El Bujia]

Didnt see Olivares u snot nose lol..... Hey Bujia dont you have some u tube fights to study up on?? Trying watching some more Barrera and maybe youll admit that he should be on the this list too.Don't you have some old Mexicans to make up your mind for you?;)

I've seen more than enough Barrera to know the ins and outs of his style and abilities, thank you. Borderline great, in my opinion, but that's admittedly a minority one.

[GPater11093]

Good effort T.

My take on it:

- Sensible move to take Carpentier out of the number 4 spot! :lol: Good to see you give Greb more credit as well. 9 is much more tenable than 18.

- How is Flash Elorde 30 odd spots above Carlos Ortiz, who thoroughly owned his ass?

- Brian Mitchell above the likes of Carlos Ortiz, Jimmy McLarnin, Ted Kid Lewis, Tony Zale, Nico Locche and Freddie Welsh? Wow.... How?

- FIghting Harada HAS to be top 100. I personally think he is well, well inside the top 50.

-I feel Miguel Canto, Billy Conn, Owen Moran, Jack Blackburn, Lew Tendler, Dave Holly, Young Griffo, Vicente Saldivar, Johnny Dundee, Ken Buchanan and Mike Gibbons should make the top 100.

Who I'd replace them with?

Jeff Chandler, Brian Mitchell, Winky Wright, Manny Pacquaio, Jimmy Carruthers, James J Corbett, Rinty Monaghan, Kostya Tszyu, and possibly Jeff Fenech, Flash Elorde and Al Brown.

Good effort overall though, a much improved list :good

These two are bona fide top 100 guys IMO.

He achieved more;) over a longer period of time, and no one can compete with what he did post 40 years old.

Charles had Moore's number it can be argued that he was a finer 175lber, but for what ever reason ($ is suspect) Charles moved up to Heavyweight without doing everything he could of done at 175.

Moore on the other hand dominated the division for 10+ years, was a long time Middleweight contender before that and whilst dominanting the 175lbers he showed he could beat all but the very best at Heavyweight, all with the added bias of being at least 37 years old during that period.

Mainly because he was not giving the chances. He has some amazing wins and a superb resume overall. IMO he is better than Moore and greater.

He accomplished more at Middleweight and Heavyweight than Moore IMO, with Light-Heavyweight being close.

No way should Ezzard Charles be rated ahead of Whitaker.

Why? Odd one that.

Wheres Jimmy Bivins out of interest?

I'm just away to check the new list so apoligies if he is in it.