Joe Louis Against Buster Douglas

[djanders]

Let's take Joe Louis, at his best, and put him in there with Buster Douglas, at his best. 12 rounds. Who wins, and how?

[Muchmoore]

Douglas would have success but Douglas was made to beat Tyson more than made to beat Joe Louis.
Douglas got caught against a Tyson that had been getting the shit kicked out of him and was lucky the round ended, he wouldn't get that lucky against a prime Joe Louis.

[IntentionalButt]

James in Japanese form gives my man a courageous six rounds.

[red cobra]

As good as Buster was against Tyson...as near flawless and fearless as he was, wouyld have gotten caught and destryed by Louis. Before I saw the vid of Joe Louis thats still floating around in the Classic forum about Louis' accuracy and power I may have thought otherwise and picked Douglas, but I am now convinced taht Joe Louis was capable of hurting and finishing off ANY heavyweight champion of history. Prime Joe Louis...post Schmeling I/pre Walcott...and even then he waqs able to finish off Walcott in their rematch.

[djanders]

I, too, think Joe would knock out Buster very early in the fight.

[PowerPuncher]

The Louis of the Conn fight loses a wide UD

[Son of Gaul]

Let's take Joe Louis, at his best, and put him in there with Buster Douglas, at his best. 12 rounds. Who wins, and how?

Buster Douglas, at his best, would have a LOT of success but I don't think he has the Championship experience to put The Bomber away. Buster would lose focus around the 6th or 7th round and get caught...at which point his confidence would gradually wane and Joe would take over. Louis TKO 12.

[Son of Gaul]

Larry Holmes still takes The Brown Bomber to school.

[doug.ie]

whats douglas at nowadays ?

[janitor]

Louis would always win this fight because even if everything did start going arse over tits like it did for Tyson, he would keep his cool and find his opening, then not let Douglas off the hook.

That is one reason why Louis posted 26 defences and Tyson didn't.

[PowerPuncher]

Louis would always win this fight because even if everything did start going arse over tits like it did for Tyson, he would keep his cool and find his opening, then not let Douglas off the hook.

That is one reason why Louis posted 26 defences and Tyson didn't.

That and gift decisions, crap competition....

[Jorodz]

whats douglas at nowadays ?

probably 420, 440

[itrymariti]

That and gift decisions, crap competition....

...like Buster Douglas?

[Jorodz]

...like Buster Douglas?

what?? competition like max baer can't compete with buster douglas. max schmeling? who's that? tyson beat mitch BLOOD green. suck it louis!

[janitor]

That and gift decisions, crap competition....

Gift decisions?

Louis was only taken to the cards three times, and the only decision where his opponent had a strong case was the first Walcott fight. Had this decision gone against Louis he would still have posted 24 title defences.

Crap competition?

Was there nobody better than James Douglas in that era?

Could a hypothetical contender whose only big win had been a win over Louis not be granted a status equal to James Douglas based on that win?

Was there actualy any better competition to be had?

[ironchamp]

Gift decisions?

Louis was only taken to the cards three times, and the only decision where his opponent had a strong case was the first Walcott fight. Had this decision gone against Louis he would still have posted 24 title defences.

Crap competition?

Was there nobody better than James Douglas in that era?

Could a hypothetical contender whose only big win had been a win over Louis not be granted a status equal to James Douglas based on that win?

Was there actualy any better competition to be had?

Don't mind him.

24 defenses is a lot any way you slice it never mind the 26 he actually picked up.

Its the reason I rank Louis number 1 on my ATG HW list. That kind of consistency is very very difficult to maintain. Even if his opponents are berated, it is still an accomplishment.

I tend to think that Douglas would have given Louis tough task but Louis's composure and style would keep him in the fight long enough to find the opening he needs.

I say TKO11.

[janitor]

whats douglas at nowadays ?

A sad story with a possible happy ending.

Douglas was plagued by depression. He balooned to 350lbs after he retired from boxing and nearly died as a result.

He managed to get his weight down by returning to boxing.

I hope this story has a happy ending.

[janitor]

Don't mind him.

24 defenses is a lot any way you slice it never mind the 26 he actually picked up.

Its the reason I rank Louis number 1 on my ATG HW list. That kind of consistency is very very difficult to maintain. Even if his opponents are berated, it is still an accomplishment.

I tend to think that Douglas would have given Louis tough task but Louis's composure and style would keep him in the fight long enough to find the opening he needs.

I say TKO11.

Certainly a plausible scenario.

On a side note Tyson Douglas is one of my favourite fights despite my old timer leanings.

It is just like a fairytale.

[under the wire]

Joe Louis, IMO is the greatest fighter ever to live.

[djanders]

Certainly a plausible scenario.

On a side note Tyson Douglas is one of my favourite fights despite my old timer leanings.

It is just like a fairytale.

Yes! I agree! It was a great fight, with all the drama and excitement that any boxing fan could want! It got me up on my feet more than once; I can tell you that much! And Tyson almost pulled it out of the fire! It was not to be, though, and Douglas pulled off one of the most dramatic upsets in heavyweight history!

[djanders]

Joe Louis, IMO is the greatest fighter ever to live.

I lean to Muhammad Ali, by the slimmest of margins, for that honor...but I can tell you for sure that I wouldn't argue with you on your selection! :good

[Jorodz]

Joe Louis, IMO is the greatest fighter ever to live.

he certainly earned the right to be in the talks. personally i have him lower end of my top 25 p4p and number 2 at heavy

[punchy]

I give Douglas a chance especially if he is allowed to clinch how he did with Tyson, I give Douglas a chance against any heavyweight in history. Louis never fought a man the size of Douglas with his skills but at some time Louis would catch Douglas, if Douglas survived he would go on and win but it is almost impossible to survive once Louis catches up with you. An interesting match up.

[RockysSplitNose]

This is a truly farcical thread - Buster Douglas was a bloody journey man for christs sake - come on people lets get with it - this is a joke surely - Douglas was never 'near flawless' against Tyson - that was just a fight where Tyson just simply wasn't there (not at all) - why do you think Douglas was anywhere from 35-1 against to 42-1 against - and the fight was taken to Japan because they would've laughed it out of the ring in the states - Tyson should've (and would've) knocked him out in one if he'd have actually been there - Louis would need 3 max to topple him.

[Jorodz]

This is a truly farcical thread - Buster Douglas was a bloody journey man for christs sake - come on people lets get with it - this is a joke surely - Douglas was never 'near flawless' against Tyson - that was just a fight where Tyson just simply wasn't there (not at all) - why do you think Douglas was anywhere from 35-1 against to 42-1 against - and the fight was taken to Japan because they would've laughed it out of the ring in the states - Tyson should've (and would've) knocked him out in one if he'd have actually been there - Louis would need 3 max to topple him.

i think taking douglas's career as a whole, you're bang on. but this is about douglas on that night and i respectfully disagree: he was brilliant. would he have looked so brilliant against the real mike? who knows but that douglas was a talent.

it seems though that some of the judgements on this thread that are kinder to douglas are taking a PRIME douglas, for that one night and pitting him against a less than prime louis (perhaps from the walcott or conn fight).

if it's douglas (tyson) vs louis (schmeling 2) i think douglas puts up a strong resistance ala tommy farr but ultimately falls, probably around the 8th or 9th. when tyson got his shot in, so would louis and he was a master finisher from all accounts. if douglas got up, it wouldn't be for long

[Bummy Davis]

Louis by KO and quicker than EV HO did it

[Stevie G]

As good as Buster Douglas was in the Tyson fight,I can't envisage him beating Joe Louis or any of the other all time greats in their best years. Louis would have eventually got inside,and when that happens,goodbye Buster !

[Jorodz]

As good as Buster Douglas was in the Tyson fight,I can't envisage him beating Joe Louis or any of the other all time greats in their best years. Louis would have eventually got inside,and when that happens,goodbye Buster !

exactly, though i think it'd take some rounds for him to get there. still, when tyson got on the inside douglas (when he was paying attention!) was tremendous at clinching, neutralizing tyson's physical advantages because of his height and avoiding his body attack before pushing him off. now that tyson can't compare with louis but those same tactics would frustrate the brown bomber, at least long enough to get some work done on the outside. i'm not arguing that douglas wins by any means, but based on styles and performance, it could be a long night

[Bill Butcher]

Let's take Joe Louis, at his best, and put him in there with Buster Douglas, at his best. 12 rounds. Who wins, and how?

The only sensible pick says Louis by KO, brutally too.

[KTFO]

Prime Douglas dismantles Louis easily. Louis on the canvass four times until ref stops the fight.

[frankenfrank]

The Louis of the Conn fight loses a wide UD
the louis of the conn fight loses by stoppage.

[kickbxn5]

Louis by KO inside of 9.

[janitor]

the louis of the conn fight loses by stoppage.

The Louis of the Conn fight was a lot better than the Tyson of Tokyo and indeed the Louis of the first Schmeling fight.

He wasn't neglecting his training. The worst that you can say about him is that he made a bad judgment call by trying to sweat down to under 200lbs.

[Jorodz]

The Louis of the Conn fight was a lot better than the Tyson of Tokyo and indeed the Louis of the first Schmeling fight.

He wasn't neglecting his training. The worst that you can say about him is that he made a bad judgment call by trying to sweat down to under 200lbs.

that aside from all accounts the strategy used by conn is nothing like what douglas would use. douglas would not engage on the inside, nor would he utilize movement. different fighters and strategies

[janitor]

that aside from all accounts the strategy used by conn is nothing like what douglas would use. douglas would not engage on the inside, nor would he utilize movement. different fighters and strategies

Conn should be given all credit for this performence.

He was fighting a focused Louis at his absolute peak.

If the war had not happened then Conn might have built himself a resume like that of Ezzard Charles.

[Jorodz]

Conn should be given all credit for this performence.

He was fighting a focused Louis at his absolute peak.

If the war had not happened then Conn might have built himself a resume like that of Ezzard Charles.

that's a bold statement (no pun intended) with conn's talent, very reasonable. if he had beat louis that night, can you imagine what his legacy would be?

[frankenfrank]

The Louis of the Conn fight was a lot better than the Tyson of Tokyo and indeed the Louis of the first Schmeling fight.

He wasn't neglecting his training. The worst that you can say about him is that he made a bad judgment call by trying to sweat down to under 200lbs.
the tyson of tokyo still knocked down buster douglas whom was not a billy conn. douglas won over tyson by KO , and he was not a one hit wonder as he also outpointed mccall before tokyo. louis was hurt by conn , douglas was no conn. if louis was hurt by douglas he would not have gotten up with that shaky chin of his. why should he have tried to sweat down to under 200lbs ? luckily for him , he did not have to make cruiserweight , as heavyweight was ridiculously at above 175 , as you know.

[janitor]

[quote=frankenfrank;6505816]the tyson of tokyo still knocked down buster douglas whom was not a billy conn. douglas won over tyson by KO , and he was not a one hit wonder as he also outpointed mccall before tokyo. louis was hurt by conn , douglas was no conn.

You are quite right to say that Douglas was no Conn.

The crucial difference lies in the fact that Conn could never have been mistaken for anything other than a great fighter, regardless of how he had performed against Louis. The same cannot be said of Douglas if he had lost to Tyson.

if louis was hurt by douglas he would not have gotten up with that shaky chin of his.

Louis took punches from bigger hitters than Douglas.

why should he have tried to sweat down to under 200lbs ?

It was a contractural requirment.

luckily for him , he did not have to make cruiserweight , as heavyweight was ridiculously at above 175 , as you know.

Where would you have set the heavyweight limit back then?

[PowerPuncher]

1. Gift decisions?

Louis was only taken to the cards three times, and the only decision where his opponent had a strong case was the first Walcott fight. Had this decision gone against Louis he would still have posted 24 title defences.

2. Crap competition?

3. Was there nobody better than James Douglas in that era?

Could a hypothetical contender whose only big win had been a win over Louis not be granted a status equal to James Douglas based on that win?

4. Was there actualy any better competition to be had?

1. Walcott, Godody, Farr

2. The HW era was far from impressive

3. There wasnt a 220lb man with an 82inch reach who could jab and move in the same way, no

4. Yes he could have defended against Elmer Ray, Bivins, Charles and could have fought Walcott earlier too

[PowerPuncher]

[quote]

You are quite right to say that Douglas was no Conn.

The crucial difference lies in the fact that Conn could never have been mistaken for anything other than a great fighter, regardless of how he had performed against Louis. The same cannot be said of Douglas if he had lost to Tyson. ?

Conn was not a great fighter at HW, he was a super middleweight. Imagine if Tyson got outboxed for 12rounds against Joe Calzaghe and Calzaghe is bigger than Conn too

[janitor]

[quote=PowerPuncher;6506362]1. Walcott, Godody, Farr

I will give you Walcott (arguably) and thats it.

Nobody except diehard anti Louis trolls argues that Farr or Godody deserved the decision over him.


2. The HW era was far from impressive


To be honest with you the era that Tyson was fighting in before he lost the title suffered from all the same defects.


3. There wasnt a 220lb man with an 82inch reach who could jab and move in the same way, no


Actualy there was and his name was Primo Carnera.

There are fighters like that in every era and they do not win the title by virtue of having those atributes unless they have something else.

4. Yes he could have defended against Elmer Ray, Bivins, Charles and could have fought Walcott earlier too

Walcott he fought twice. Walcott was never a viable contender untill the postwar era anyway.

Ray and Bivins were obviously not as good as Walcott, even if they were deserving of title shots.

Charles was on his way up when Louis was in the twilight years of his title reign and got to fight him later anyway.

So what you seem to be saying is that no there was not any better competition to be had

[janitor]

[quote=janitor;6506151]

Conn was not a great fighter at HW, he was a super middleweight. Imagine if Tyson got outboxed for 12rounds against Joe Calzaghe and Calzaghe is bigger than Conn too

Well he was the #1 ranked heavyweight contender while James Souglas was the #7 ranked heavyweight contender. That can't simply be glossed over.

If Louis had wasted Conn in the first round then Conn would still be remembered as an all time great light heavyweight and one of the outstanding heavyweight contenders of the period.

If Tyson had wasted Douglas in one round then people would ask why he was even given a title shot.

At the end of the day it compes down to a 170lb pound for pound great or a 220lb lower top 10 contender. Conn was not any smaller than the light heavyweight version of Michael Spinks a few months before he beat Larry Holmes. Lets call it a tie and make the fact that Louis won his fight the tiebreaker.

[djanders]

Partial...[quote]Where would you have set the heavyweight limit back then?

Sorry to butt in., but I know where I would have set the heavyweight limit back then, and it's at the same weight I wish it was set at now. Okay...carry on! :lol:

[mcvey]

probably 420, 440

Very, very ,dry.:lol:

[mcvey]

Let's take Joe Louis, at his best, and put him in there with Buster Douglas, at his best. 12 rounds. Who wins, and how?
The Tokyo Douglas would be competitive with just about anyone ,imo. My pick is still Louis though ,by late ko.