Sugar Ray Robinson ducked Charley Burley???!

[bman100]

Iv'e heard rumours that the two were in negotiations to fight and Sugar ducked Charley saying something like he was "too pretty to fight Burley". Wikpeida which i know is not at all a perfectly reliable source has a list of "greats" who ducked Burley, Ray is included in that list, anyone got any info in this???

bman100

[Thread Stealer]

They were on some card together in the Midwest, and promoters wanted to stage a bout between the two. Afterwards, Robinson doubled his demand from $25k to $50k and also apparently said that quote "I'm too pretty to fight Burley".

Burley held no grudge, and said this about Ray:

"Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Ray's manager) admitted that much. But, I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."

"You know, to me the most remarkable thing about Ray's career is that he didn't even get a shot at the welterweight title til he was 26- or the middleweight title til' he was 30! You think he was the greatest? What do you think he'd a been if he'd gotten his chances when he deserved them? You wanna know the truth? If I coulda' got my shot, I wouldn't have risked it fighting someone like Ray."

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[choklab]

I read a book on burly, its a sad story since he had universaly accepted talent. it dosnt make it right but he just wasnt quite the phenomanon that joe louis and ray robinson were. he just didnt fight out of new york or chicago or sell as many tickets or get the write ups of the other two.
there was a lot of champion material guys out there and just not enough titles to go round. ticket sellers got more breaks. robinson got more breaks but ulitmatly more people wanted to watch him than burly. its not fair its just how it was.
I read both robinson and burly apeared on the same card against patsy opponents one time and burly held nothing back in trying to outdo ray. the book hinted that burly did too good a job on his guy killing any chance he had of making a burly-robinson fight. I remember checking out robinsons record and i just think it was a case of ray getting booked with a beter known opponent in advance rather than ray ducking burly. why take burly in a back water when you can take a match against a beatable name opponent in newyork?

[Jorodz]

They were on some card together in the Midwest, and promoters wanted to stage a bout between the two. Afterwards, Robinson doubled his demand from $25k to $50k and also apparently said that quote "I'm too pretty to fight Burley".

Burley held no grudge, and said this about Ray:



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

fucking hell, burley was all class. it puts it into perspective and provides a context beyond the typical ducking claims. sure, robinson didn't want to fight him but their was a reason. robinson has one of if not the greatest resume of all time. risking it all against a fighter than brought nothing makes sense and it's not like ray didn't fight a dozen or so hall of famers anyway. still, would have been nice to see and burley is incredible to not hold a grudge.

[Boxed Ears]

They were on some card together in the Midwest, and promoters wanted to stage a bout between the two. Afterwards, Robinson doubled his demand from $25k to $50k and also apparently said that quote "I'm too pretty to fight Burley".

Burley held no grudge, and said this about Ray:



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

That's way more useful than what I was going to say. Good work, TS. :thumbsup

[bman100]

They were on some card together in the Midwest, and promoters wanted to stage a bout between the two. Afterwards, Robinson doubled his demand from $25k to $50k and also apparently said that quote "I'm too pretty to fight Burley".

Burley held no grudge, and said this about Ray:



[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Thanks for that link, didnt know Burley said that about Ray, there was also some stuff in the link you provided about Sugar possibly ducking Cocoa Kid (who I admit im not very familiar with) didnt know that stuff either.

On another note, seems Burley was "ducked" by a few others like Lamotta, he musta been a class fighter to be refused entry into the ring with guys like robinson or lamotta.

[Jorodz]

Thanks for that link, didnt know Burley said that about Ray, there was also some stuff in the link you provided about Sugar possibly ducking Cocoa Kid (who I admit im not very familiar with) didnt know that stuff either.

On another note, seems Burley was "ducked" by a few others like Lamotta, he musta been a class fighter to be refused entry into the ring with guys like robinson or lamotta.

oh he was. again, i don't know that much about him but burley would fight anyone, any time and the only fighter to consistently get the better of him was ezzard charles. he lost to zivic early but avenged that. he beat archie moore, who denied him another match. others, including billy conn, refused fights and eddie futch called him "the finest all around fighter" he ever saw

[Thread Stealer]

Thanks for that link, didnt know Burley said that about Ray, there was also some stuff in the link you provided about Sugar possibly ducking Cocoa Kid (who I admit im not very familiar with) didnt know that stuff either.

On another note, seems Burley was "ducked" by a few others like Lamotta, he musta been a class fighter to be refused entry into the ring with guys like robinson or lamotta.

A lot of fighters then, particularly black fighters, were avoided because the risk wasn't worth the financial reward. It was tough for the whole Black Murderers Row to get the fights they deserved. Some fought for the "Colored" titles or the "Duration" title when MW champ Tony Zale was in WW2.

LaMotta, who himself had to wait quite awhile to get a title shot, was quoted as saying something like "why should I fight Burley when I have Zivic?" One story regarding Fritzie Zivic is that after facing Charley Burley a couple times his management bought out Burley's contract.

Archie Moore was quoted as saying that he always gets asked whom the best fighter he faced was and that he always says Rocky Marciano to make them happy, but he felt the best two were Charley Burley & Eddie Booker.

There's not much film of Burley unfortunately. I've seen that one fight against Billy Smith, but nothing else.

[TommyV]

As McGrain pointed out to me a while ago though, at no point was Burley the #1 contender. I'm of the opinion that it would have been a very dull fight aswell, but I still wish it had happened.

[Jorodz]

A lot of fighters then, particularly black fighters, were avoided because the risk wasn't worth the financial reward. It was tough for the whole Black Murderers Row to get the fights they deserved. Some fought for the "Colored" titles or the "Duration" title when MW champ Tony Zale was in WW2.

LaMotta, who himself had to wait quite awhile to get a title shot, was quoted as saying something like "why should I fight Burley when I have Zivic?" One story regarding Fritzie Zivic is that after facing Charley Burley a couple times his management bought out Burley's contract.

Archie Moore was quoted as saying that he always gets asked whom the best fighter he faced was and that he always says Rocky Marciano to make them happy, but he felt the best two were Charley Burley & Eddie Booker.

There's not much film of Burley unfortunately. I've seen that one fight against Billy Smith, but nothing else.

if i could get any three burley fights it would be 1)jd turner 2) archie moore 3)any of the ezzard charles fights (to see two of the best in their primes)

[burt bienstock]

In 1942, my father without me went to St Nick's Arena to watch a prelim fighter he favored..I as a youngster refused to go with him...When he came home, he forgot the prelims and raved about a Charley Burley, who ko'd an opponent in one round...We had heard about Burley's reputation, as a fighter to be avoided, and my father found out why..Too bad I as a youngster, didn't see Burley, in the flesh...Robinson,obvious wanted no part of Burley...Too much risk , with little reward....My hero, Harry Greb, who my dad sawmurder Tunney,1922 MSG, avoided NO ONE, even heavyweights in his amazing career...Fear was not part of Greb's lexicon....

[choklab]

A lot of fighters then, particularly black fighters, were avoided because the risk wasn't worth the financial reward. It was tough for the whole Black Murderers Row to get the fights they deserved. Some fought for the "Colored" titles or the "Duration" title when MW champ Tony Zale was in WW2.

LaMotta, who himself had to wait quite awhile to get a title shot, was quoted as saying something like "why should I fight Burley when I have Zivic?" One story regarding Fritzie Zivic is that after facing Charley Burley a couple times his management bought out Burley's contract.

Archie Moore was quoted as saying that he always gets asked whom the best fighter he faced was and that he always says Rocky Marciano to make them happy, but he felt the best two were Charley Burley & Eddie Booker.

There's not much film of Burley unfortunately. I've seen that one fight against Billy Smith, but nothing else.


its sad that black fighters with ambition and talent had to be a super human phenomanon before they sold tickets. its the down side of the good old days that being good enough to be a champion wasnt enough!

[mcvey]

Iv'e heard rumours that the two were in negotiations to fight and Sugar ducked Charley saying something like he was "too pretty to fight Burley". Wikpeida which i know is not at all a perfectly reliable source has a list of "greats" who ducked Burley, Ray is included in that list, anyone got any info in this???

bman100

" I have to admit, I have my doubts I could have licked him during my prime years".

Ray Robinson.

[SLAKKA]

Fritzie Zivic and Beau Jack thought comparing Burley with Robinson was a joke.
Both thought robby was much better.

[Titan1]

Jimmy Bivins also beat Charlie.

[dadia]

I just want to throw out there that another version of that SRR quote (secondhand from Burley himself as I recall) is more along the lines of: "He's too cute for me to fight him." This obviously has a whole different connotation. I can't recall the source, sorry. But it is there to be uncovered again if someone puts the effort in.

[bman100]

" I have to admit, I have my doubts I could have licked him during my prime years".

Ray Robinson.


wow, well that certainly portrays a slightly different image on the greatest prizefighter of all time compared to what most would say about him. sounds like burley could have pushed robinson to his limit, shame the fight didnt actually materialize.

[TommyV]

Fritzie Zivic and Beau Jack thought comparing Burley with Robinson was a joke.
Both thought robby was much better.

All depends on when Zivic said it, seeing as he and Luke Carney did everything possible to stop Zivic getting back in the ring with Burley. I'm sure discrediting his abilities as a fighter would fall under that category.

[teeto]

Time for one of my fave quotes (off the top of my dome)

'God asked me and Walker Smith, which one of you want to be Sugar Ray Robinson then? I guess i never raised my hand fast enough'

[Jorodz]

Time for one of my fave quotes (off the top of my dome)

'God asked me and Walker Smith, which one of you want to be Sugar Ray Robinson then? I guess i never raised my hand fast enough'

was that burley?? cause that's a damn fine quote

[TommyV]

Time for one of my fave quotes (off the top of my dome)

'God asked me and Walker Smith, which one of you want to be Sugar Ray Robinson then? I guess i never raised my hand fast enough'

Never heard that before. Brilliant.

[teeto]

Well TommyV and Jorodz, it's been a while since i read it, but the only Burley book i read was 'The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion', i'm dam sure it was in there, but then again sometimes i question my sanity, haha.

[Jorodz]

Well TommyV and Jorodz, it's been a while since i read it, but the only Burley book i read was 'The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion', i'm dam sure it was in there, but then again sometimes i question my sanity, haha.

still a damn nice line, even if you just made it up:D

[teeto]

still a damn nice line, even if you just made it up:D

:lol::deal

Nar i never made it up though. I've spoken to McGrain about it and he read it as well. I'd go and look it up but i lent that book out about a year ago and haven't got it back yet.:patsch

[GPater11093]

Time for one of my fave quotes (off the top of my dome)

'God asked me and Walker Smith, which one of you want to be Sugar Ray Robinson then? I guess i never raised my hand fast enough'

As you pointed out before, proof of Robinsons superior handspeed and reflexes.

:lol::deal

Nar i never made it up though. I've spoken to McGrain about it and he read it as well. I'd go and look it up but i lent that book out about a year ago and haven't got it back yet.:patsch

It takes about a year to read but it is well wroth it. It is in the book I got it infront of me know.

[SLAKKA]

All depends on when Zivic said it, seeing as he and Luke Carney did everything possible to stop Zivic getting back in the ring with Burley. I'm sure discrediting his abilities as a fighter would fall under that category.

It was said throughout his post boxing life and was all about what he felt was right. He usta demonstrate and box a bit to make his points.

[teeto]

As you pointed out before, proof of Robinsons superior handspeed and reflexes.



It takes about a year to read but it is well wroth it. It is in the book I got it infront of me know.

:good

Best book i've read.

[Bill Butcher]

Burley held no grudge, and said this about Ray:
Quote:
"Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Ray's manager) admitted that much. But, I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."

"You know, to me the most remarkable thing about Ray's career is that he didn't even get a shot at the welterweight title til he was 26- or the middleweight title til' he was 30! You think he was the greatest? What do you think he'd a been if he'd gotten his chances when he deserved them? You wanna know the truth? If I coulda' got my shot, I wouldn't have risked it fighting someone like Ray." .

Thats what you call pure class.
Cheers, never knew this :good

[Abdullah]

In 1942, my father without me went to St Nick's Arena to watch a prelim fighter he favored..I as a youngster refused to go with him...When he came home, he forgot the prelims and raved about a Charley Burley, who ko'd an opponent in one round...We had heard about Burley's reputation, as a fighter to be avoided, and my father found out why..Too bad I as a youngster, didn't see Burley, in the flesh...Robinson,obvious wanted no part of Burley...Too much risk , with little reward....My hero, Harry Greb, who my dad sawmurder Tunney,1922 MSG, avoided NO ONE, even heavyweights in his amazing career...Fear was not part of Greb's lexicon....

Well said, Burt.

[Abdullah]

"Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Ray's manager) admitted that much. But, I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."

"You know, to me the most remarkable thing about Ray's career is that he didn't even get a shot at the welterweight title til he was 26- or the middleweight title til' he was 30! You think he was the greatest? What do you think he'd a been if he'd gotten his chances when he deserved them? You wanna know the truth? If I coulda' got my shot, I wouldn't have risked it fighting someone like Ray."

What a classy guy.

[ripcity]

Yes, and he seems to get a free pass for it as well.

[ripcity]

Robinson not fighting any of the Black Murders Row has drooped him to #4 on my ATG list.

[McGrain]

Yes, and he seems to get a free pass for it as well.


Well he was never the #1contender. If Sugar wants to pass up a career's best payday to defend against guys who are ranked above Burley, that actually demonstrates, arguably, a sense of honour rather than cowardice. Of course, Burley was the best thing around and there was serious money on offer so it's always going to look a little suspect, but it needs to be said that if you can't FORCE your way to #1 contender status, then you are basically trying to buy your way to a title shot...which perhaps isn't right?

[McGrain]

Robinson not fighting any of the Black Murders Row has drooped him to #4 on my ATG list.


The only ones he could really have been expected to match were Cocoa Kid and Burley. For the record I see Armstrong's failing to meet Burley and Zivic's refusing to meet him as champion and arguably Cochrane's failure to meet him as worse than Robinson's. You could perhaps throw LaMotta in there too ("why do I need Burley when I have Zivic") and Cerdan was happy to meet a fading Williams but certainly not a keen Burley. Robinson is less culpable than most IMO.

Burley was a problem nobody needed.

[PowerPuncher]

Robinson not fighting any of the Black Murders Row has drooped him to #4 on my ATG list.

You also need to drop Armstrong down then for not facing Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid himself.

Robinson was also initially a LW and beat the LW champ at 136lbs

Avoiding fights doesnt always detract from a fighters ability either, Calzaghe for instance didnt want any of the hard fights, his dad had to force him to fight Lacy and you saw how emphatic that win was

[ripcity]

McGrain & PowerPuncher
I don't rate Armstrong all that high to begain with

[PowerPuncher]

McGrain & PowerPuncher
I don't rate Armstrong all that high to begain with

Brave man, I agree Armstrong not necessarily being a lock for the top3 but they'll drown you on here for mentioning it. Whats your top10 look like?

[bman100]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Seems to be a very skilful tactician, based on all this, the man was a genius though not a "crowd pleaser", maybe one of the reasons the man was denied a title shot. It would have been a great match with him and Sugar though, wish it happened.

On a completeley differnet note, there seems to be a few vids like this on Joe Louis and other fighters, someone should do one of Sugar Ray Robinson to show his boxing genius, just a complete side-note though.

[arther1045]

Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Jul 15, 1945
Matchmaker Jake Mintz said today he had wired an offer of $17500 to Ray [Sugar] Robinson of Newv York to fight Charley Burley of Pitts- burgh here Sept. 17.

This is a headline from a 1945 Chicago paper. can't find anything after that.

[bman100]

Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Jul 15, 1945
Matchmaker Jake Mintz said today he had wired an offer of $17500 to Ray [Sugar] Robinson of Newv York to fight Charley Burley of Pitts- burgh here Sept. 17.

This is a headline from a 1945 Chicago paper. can't find anything after that.


thanks for that. seems the price was higher than originally thought.

[GPater11093]

For me Robinson never ducked Burley. Every time Burley got into a position to really demand a title shot he lost or was sidelined through injury. That is what is overlooked with Burley, his management was terrible and more than likely it was it that cost him a chance to be king.

[PowerPuncher]

For me Robinson never ducked Burley. Every time Burley got into a position to really demand a title shot he lost or was sidelined through injury. That is what is overlooked with Burley, his management was terrible and more than likely it was it that cost him a chance to be king.

Its been posted on here Robinson was offered career high money to face Burley, not sure on the legitimacy of that

[GPater11093]

Its been posted on here Robinson was offered career high money to face Burley, not sure on the legitimacy of that

He was never once obligated to face Burley, as McGrain pointed out Armstrong's, Zivic's and Cochrane's duck of Burley is far more blatant. In fact Armstrong basically ducked Burley from Aug 22nd 1938 till the 4th October 1941.

Sugar Rays title reing compared to Burleys career

Rays title reign

1946

Tommy Bell W15 (WT)

1947

Bernie Miller TKO3
Freddie Wilson KO3
Eddie Finazzo TKO4
Georgie Abrahams W10
Jimmy Doyle TKO8 (WT)
Sammy Secret KO1
Flashy Sebastian KO1
Calif. Jackie Wilson TKO7
Billy Nixon TKO6

1948

Ossie Harris W10
Henry Brimm W10
Bernard Docuson W15 (WT)
Kid Gavilan W10
Bobby Lee W10

1949

Young Gene Buffalo KO1
Henry Brimm D10
Bobby Lee W10
Don Lee W10
Earl Turner TKO8
Freddie Flores TKO 3
Cecil Hudson KO5
Kid Gavilan W15 (WT)
(after that competed at Middleweight)

Burleys career in these years

1946

Charley Dodson TKO3
Paulie Peters TKO2
Billy Smith W10
Charley Banks W10
Bert Lytell W10

1947

Bert Lytell L10
Larry Cartwright WKO7

1948

Battling Black Jack KO3

1949

Charley 'Doc' Williams L10
Willie Wright W8

If someone could provide monthly rankings of these years, it would help.

In 1946 Burley was a fully fledged Middleweight weighing at least 157lbs, in that year. His opposition were mostly Middleweights and Light Heavyweights, so surely if anyone ducked him it was the Middleweight Champion. Who was a very inactive Tony Zale.

He then lost to Lytell in early 1947 and didnt do much at all beating 2 no hopers. And in 1949 he rounded out his career with a loss to Light Heavyweight hopeful Williams and then went out on a win to a no hoper.

As Champion Robinson did not duck Burley at all, a very common misconception, and anyway Burley was past prime when Robinson was champion.

[GPater11093]

For those of you who do think Robinson 'ducked' Burley what time period do you think it happened?

[McGrain]

Zale was approached as a part of a sort of catchall cable Burley's people sent out near the end of his career, but I'm afraid I don't know the circumstances of the following silence.

[WhataRock]

For those of you who do think Robinson 'ducked' Burley what time period do you think it happened?

I think thats a lot of the problem here...though its pretty clear Robinson opted out not to fight Burley and actually walked out of a contract to fight Cocoa Kid....timing played its role in Robinson not fighting a lot of the Murders Row.

As for the Cocoa Kid fight..Im not so sure of the details of that. I think Kid was bought in as a late replacement for a fight Robinson had in the late 40's..Robinson was cool with it but then decided to pull the plug..why Im not sure but I believe I theorized at the time of reading the article that the Gavilan rematch for SRR's welter title had been signed at the start of that month and maybe he just didnt think it was a smart fight to take on short notice with an impending title fight.
But an interesting tid bit that Im sure most know anyway.. Cocoa Kid dropped Robinson in sparring, not sure when but have seen that in a couple of sources.

[McGrain]

Cocoa was a ringer. Sugar didn't know he would be there that night. He was also a world class fighter. It would be a little like Mayweather turning up for a charity match and finding Margarito in the ring. Who in there right mind would expect Mayweather to go through with that, expecting a local boy and getting Antonio? Nobody. BUT. I do think Robinson should have gone back and cleaned up the mess, maybe.

On the other hand, if you mess around with Robinson, good luck at the negotiating table.

[PowerPuncher]

Mcgrain do you know anything of the career high offer Burleys management made to Robinson?

[PowerPuncher]

He was never once obligated to face Burley, as McGrain pointed out Armstrong's, Zivic's and Cochrane's duck of Burley is far more blatant. In fact Armstrong basically ducked Burley from Aug 22nd 1938 till the 4th October 1941.

Sugar Rays title reing compared to Burleys career

Rays title reign

1946

Tommy Bell W15 (WT)

1947

Bernie Miller TKO3
Freddie Wilson KO3
Eddie Finazzo TKO4
Georgie Abrahams W10
Jimmy Doyle TKO8 (WT)
Sammy Secret KO1
Flashy Sebastian KO1
Calif. Jackie Wilson TKO7
Billy Nixon TKO6

1948

Ossie Harris W10
Henry Brimm W10
Bernard Docuson W15 (WT)
Kid Gavilan W10
Bobby Lee W10

1949

Young Gene Buffalo KO1
Henry Brimm D10
Bobby Lee W10
Don Lee W10
Earl Turner TKO8
Freddie Flores TKO 3
Cecil Hudson KO5
Kid Gavilan W15 (WT)
(after that competed at Middleweight)

Burleys career in these years

1946

Charley Dodson TKO3
Paulie Peters TKO2
Billy Smith W10
Charley Banks W10
Bert Lytell W10

1947

Bert Lytell L10
Larry Cartwright WKO7

1948

Battling Black Jack KO3

1949

Charley 'Doc' Williams L10
Willie Wright W8

If someone could provide monthly rankings of these years, it would help.

In 1946 Burley was a fully fledged Middleweight weighing at least 157lbs, in that year. His opposition were mostly Middleweights and Light Heavyweights, so surely if anyone ducked him it was the Middleweight Champion. Who was a very inactive Tony Zale.

He then lost to Lytell in early 1947 and didnt do much at all beating 2 no hopers. And in 1949 he rounded out his career with a loss to Light Heavyweight hopeful Williams and then went out on a win to a no hoper.

As Champion Robinson did not duck Burley at all, a very common misconception, and anyway Burley was past prime when Robinson was champion.

I'd assume the offer was made prior to Robinson being an official champ. Robinson was pretty much the unoffical lightweight and welterweight champ years before he officially won the title and was a massive draw

[TheGreatA]

I hear the fight was close to being set up in 1942, when both fought in the same card, with Burley fighting George Wilson, Robinson fighting Dick Banner. Both opponents were tomato cans but the point was to showcase the skills of the two fighters in order to hype a potential fight in the future. Robinson however was not obligated to fight Burley by any means, with Burley now campaigning as a middleweight while Robinson was still attempting to get a title shot at the elusive Freddie 'Red' Cochrane. It is said that no one was interested in making a fight between Robinson and Cochrane, because it would have been a brutal mismatch in favour of the challenger.

[McGrain]

...

[GPater11093]

Zale was approached as a part of a sort of catchall cable Burley's people sent out near the end of his career, but I'm afraid I don't know the circumstances of the following silence.

Interesting that. How would you see it going? Obviously Zale is slipping at the time a match would have been made.

I think thats a lot of the problem here...though its pretty clear Robinson opted out not to fight Burley and actually walked out of a contract to fight Cocoa Kid....timing played its role in Robinson not fighting a lot of the Murders Row.

Definitly, he kinda just came around towards the end of their careers when they were campaigning more at Middleweight. A green Robinson could have been matched with afew of them but that would have been counter productive for Robinson IMO, at the stage in his career.

But an interesting tid bit that Im sure most know anyway.. Cocoa Kid dropped Robinson in sparring, not sure when but have seen that in a couple of sources.

Didnt know that. Thanks for that. But dropping someone in sparring aint a big deal, for me anyway.

Cocoa was a ringer. Sugar didn't know he would be there that night. He was also a world class fighter. It would be a little like Mayweather turning up for a charity match and finding Margarito in the ring. Who in there right mind would expect Mayweather to go through with that, expecting a local boy and getting Antonio? Nobody. BUT. I do think Robinson should have gone back and cleaned up the mess, maybe.

On the other hand, if you mess around with Robinson, good luck at the negotiating table.

:lol::lol:

Thats a right kick in the balls, you expect an easy night and you end up with this hard hard fight or exhibition.

I'd assume the offer was made prior to Robinson being an official champ. Robinson was pretty much the unoffical lightweight and welterweight champ years before he officially won the title and was a massive draw

But when Robinson was raising to prominence as a Welterweight, Burley was fighting more at Middleweight than he had been before. He even had admitted to giving up on trying to lure Cochrane into a fight.

I hear the fight was close to being set up in 1942, when both fought in the same card, with Burley fighting George Wilson, Robinson fighting Dick Banner. Both opponents were tomato cans but the point was to showcase the skills of the two fighters in order to hype a potential fight in the future. Robinson however was not obligated to fight Burley by any means, with Burley now campaigning as a middleweight while Robinson was still attempting to get a title shot at the elusive Freddie 'Red' Cochrane. It is said that no one was interested in making a fight between Robinson and Cochrane, because it would have been a brutal mismatch in favour of the challenger.

1942 was Burleys best year IMO. He really had some impressive victories the only thing is by mid 1942 he had lost to Charles twice and then by 1943 lost twice more to Marshall and Williams.

also Burley didnt fight a 'George Wilson' in 42.

[TheGreatA]

1942 was Burleys best year IMO. He really had some impressive victories the only thing is by mid 1942 he had lost to Charles twice and then by 1943 lost twice more to Marshall and Williams.

also Burley didnt fight a 'George Wilson' in 42.

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[Only registered and activated users can see links]

It was a 'Wilson' nonetheless.

[GPater11093]

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Was looking at my Burley book, didnt think to put Wilson with Sammy Wilson :lol::lol:

But soon after beating Wilson he lost two bouts to Ezzard Charles (although he did beat Williams in the interim) it would still detract from his prestige at that precise moment in time.

[McGrain]

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[Only registered and activated users can see links]

It was a 'Wilson' nonetheless.


Three KD's with body shots.

Specimen.

[TheGreatA]

Was looking at my Burley book, didnt think to put Wilson with Sammy Wilson :lol::lol:

But soon after beating Wilson he lost two bouts to Ezzard Charles (although he did beat Williams in the interim) it would still detract from his prestige at that precise moment in time.

Burley would have been fighting Robinson instead of Charles though had Robinson accepted an offer to fight Burley. Surely Burley did not realize what a fighting machine he would run into when taking on 20 year old, 20-2 Ezzard Charles.

[GPater11093]

Three KD's with body shots.

Specimen.

Burley really is impressive, a proper technician but in an odd way. Did everything well and some spectacularly well.

Burley would have been fighting Robinson instead of Charles though had Robinson accepted an offer to fight Burley though. Surely Burley did not realize what a fighting machine he would run into when taking on 20 year old, 20-2 Ezzard Charles.

Suppose you are right. Yeh. At the time though Burley was campaigning as a Middleweight, as he hadnt weighed under the Welter limit that year, although he probably could have.

Must have been a shcok for Burley, maybe not the second time around though. One of the most impressive set of vistories in history IMO

[TheGreatA]

Zivic says here that while Robinson was the best boxer he fought (Armstrong the best fighter), Burley was probably the smartest and "hardest to fight".

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[McGrain]

Burley was also unperturbed by Zivic's foul tactics. He calmly accepted the abuse and then went right back to his boxing. 3-0 would have been a fairer reflection of their series IMO.

[GPater11093]

Zivic says here that while Robinson was the best boxer he fought (Armstrong the best fighter), Burley was probably the smartest and "hardest to fight".

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Thanks for that

[GPater11093]

Burley was also unperturbed by Zivic's foul tactics. He calmly accepted the abuse and then went right back to his boxing. 3-0 would have been a fairer reflection of their series IMO.

The first fight seems a very close and hard to score fight. I beleive Regis Welsh scored it for Zivic and decalred the decision just and Harvey Boyle thought it was a robbery and Burley won it easily.

[McGrain]

Rosenfeld had it close. Otty had it wide for Burley. Everything i've seen independant of these two had it for Burley. But, as you say.

[GPater11093]

Rosenfeld had it close. Otty had it wide for Burley. Everything i've seen independant of these two had it for Burley. But, as you say.

Did Rosenfeld and Ottey watch it?

I get the impression it was a close bout, where depending on the judging criterea you could have it for either man, although the judges picked Zivic.

[McGrain]

Did Rosenfeld and Ottey watch it?



Haha, no no, I mean in their respective books.

[GPater11093]

Rosenfeld had a fairly balanced report on it. He seems to convey an evenly fought contest