What if Holmes ko1 Ali?

[GoldenHulk]

We all know about Ali's ill fated 1980 comeback against Larry Holmes.
Ali lost about 50 lbs, dyed his hair looked great, but when the bell rang, he was nothing more than an empty shell. After taking a one sided beating for 11 rounds, it was mercifully stopped. Of course this loss didn't hurt Ali's legacy because he was old, and way past his prime, and all those rounds that he lasted with Holmes showed this. Holmes beat an old man, an Ali who was no where near his prime, and who shouldnt have even fought Holmes.
But say if in the very first round, before the fight was even 3 minutes old, Ali got nailed, went down, and took a ten count. I wonder if his place in history would be greatly affected. Personally I think it would, because if that scenario happened, people would forever say was he washed up, or did Holmes just knock him cold. And in a scenario such as this i think most people would agree that Ali just got knocked out, because the fight wasnt long enough for people to see a real erosion of his boxing skills. What do you think?

[TBooze]

We all know about Ali's ill fated 1980 comeback against Larry Holmes.
Ali lost about 50 lbs, dyed his hair looked great, but when the bell rang, he was nothing more than an empty shell. After taking a one sided beating for 11 rounds, it was mercifully stopped. Of course this loss didn't hurt Ali's legacy because he was old, and way past his prime, and all those rounds that he lasted with Holmes showed this. Holmes beat an old man, an Ali who was no where near his prime, and who shouldnt have even fought Holmes.
But say if in the very first round, before the fight was even 3 minutes old, Ali got nailed, went down, and took a ten count. I wonder if his place in history would be greatly affected. Personally I think it would, because if that scenario happened, people would forever say was he washed up, or did Holmes just knock him cold. And in a scenario such as this i think most people would agree that Ali just got knocked out, because the fight wasnt long enough for people to see a real erosion of his boxing skills. What do you think?

I think people would hate Holmes even more. People said anyway Holmes had no class, but he could always point to the Ali fight where he showed perhaps the most class there has ever been in a big fight to carry Ali 10 rounds, and probably 15 if Dundee had not used his common sense.

[GoldenHulk]

I totally agree with you about people hating Holmes even more if he Ko'd Ali in the first.
My question though, is many boxing historians consider Ali the greatest heavyweight of all time, but if he had a ko by 1 on his record, I think he would still be in the top 10, but Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson, and Tunney would be rated higher.

[sweet_scientist]

We all know about Ali's ill fated 1980 comeback against Larry Holmes.
Ali lost about 50 lbs, dyed his hair looked great, but when the bell rang, he was nothing more than an empty shell. After taking a one sided beating for 11 rounds, it was mercifully stopped. Of course this loss didn't hurt Ali's legacy because he was old, and way past his prime, and all those rounds that he lasted with Holmes showed this. Holmes beat an old man, an Ali who was no where near his prime, and who shouldnt have even fought Holmes.
But say if in the very first round, before the fight was even 3 minutes old, Ali got nailed, went down, and took a ten count. I wonder if his place in history would be greatly affected. Personally I think it would, because if that scenario happened, people would forever say was he washed up, or did Holmes just knock him cold. And in a scenario such as this i think most people would agree that Ali just got knocked out, because the fight wasnt long enough for people to see a real erosion of his boxing skills. What do you think?

Perhaps to a small extent, but with the layoff, and his age as it was, together with how shit he had looked in previous bouts, I don't think it would have been a big stretch for people to rationalise the loss away as next to meaningless to his legacy.

It wouldn't have been like a Roy Jones moment where suddenly his legacy would be dramatically altered after a ko loss. Ali had already answered every question asked of his chin up until that point, he had already proved how tough he was (whereas Roy always had that question mark).

I suppose you'd always have a few cynics who'd question Ali's legacy if Holmes Ko'ed him in the 1st round, but I think the majority would pretty much regard him as they do now.

[ron u.k.]

i don't think it would have made any difference other than merely emphasise how washed up he was.as for any hating of holmes it's something i can't understand.i'm a big ali fan but recognise holmes as a great fighter,probably have him in the top 3 heavies ever.

[cuchulain]

It would definitely have hurt his legacy somewhat.

just look at what some fools say about Roy (who should have been retired before Tarver 2.

[Duodenum]

Ali would have been accused of taking a dive, and there would be a major investigation. The notion of him taking a dive might very well have affected his legacy the way Duran's eight million dollar tank job in New Orleans did him.

For Ali to take a legimate ten count in a single round against Holmes, the acronym KO would have to have been accompanied by DOA. Muhammad was not RJJ. His toughness had long since been established.

[Chaney]

It would not have affected Ali's legacy any more than the miserable one-sided beating Ali recieved from Holmes.

Ali was obviously a shell of himself for quite some time.

Manilla is the last worthwhile Ali performance.

The Shavers bout the last dying spark of a once great fighter.

Spinks did Ali's legacy damage, losing to such a raw novice like that. Ali wasn't any better in the rematch...but Spinks had hardly trained at all and came into the fight with nothing. He lost the fight rather than Ali winning it.

So Ali vs Holmes was always going to be a dreadful end to a once great fighter, which ever way Ali lost it. Any serious boxing fan (rather than Ali fan) knew that Ali was washed up and should have retired years before.

[dmille]

By not wanting to hurt Ali, I think Larry hurt him more in the long run by putting a sustained beating on him.

If Holmes had attacked full out in the first like he did in the eighth, the fight would have been over in one or two and no one would have questioned it.

And after a true @ss whipping, Ali wouldn't have come back for one more with Trever Berbick.

[Duodenum]

Within the last few days, I reviewed Ali/Spinks II in it's entirety, and Cosell never hesitated to accurately point out the myriad ways in which Ali had deteriorated, even in a match Muhammad handily dominated from beginning to end. The only item of interest we get out of Muhammad continuing his career after Manila is knowedge of the unbridled supremacy Shavers possessed in punching power.

Some have suggested that Ali should have concluded his career after Kinshasa, but 1975 was one of the greatest years any heavyweight champion has ever produced, establishing him as the division's last great 15 round ironman.

[Duodenum]

By not wanting to hurt Ali, I think Larry hurt him more in the long run by putting a sustained beating on him.

If Holmes had attacked full out in the first like he did in the eighth, the fight would have been over in one or two and no one would have questioned it.

And after a true @ss whipping, Ali wouldn't have come back for one more with Trever Berbick.I suspect that if Larry had Eddie Futch in his corner, instead of Ritchie Giachetti, it may well have been his approach to eliminate Muhammad ASAP.

Dempsey took mercy on his friend Miske by getting him out as quickly as possible, and Louis did the same for his pal John Henry Lewis. Once upon a time, the more vindictive thing to do was carry an opponent.

True enough, damage to the brain and body is caused by an accumulation of blows, more often than a few big shots.

However, I don't believe there was any way to avert Ali's decision to face Berbick. Holmes had messed up Ali's face. If the possiblilty of Muhammad's vanity being offended again wasn't enough to stop him from trying once more, then I doubt anything Larry did would have made any difference.


Now in Griffith/Paret II, if Emile had gone all out to stop Benny, instead of squandering the WW title back to Paret, then Benny might have retired then and there, instead of making the disastrous attempt to move up against Fullmer. Was Griffith responsible for killing Paret? By letting Benny regain his championship, this may indeed have been the case. Griffith/Paret III sould never have been signed to begin with.

[Rattler]

Nothing really changes with this outcome.

Holmes wasn't popular before the actual fight or after it. The level of dislike would've varied more or less, but the same inevitable feeling would always exist.

As for Ali, it wouldn't change anything else either. He was far past finished. Whether he gets pasted quick or worn out slowly, he still loses and goes out with a whimper and receives empathy for his troubles.

The effect of a first round KO is negligible at best.

[Bill1234]

I think people would hate Holmes even more. People said anyway Holmes had no class, but he could always point to the Ali fight where he showed perhaps the most class there has ever been in a big fight to carry Ali 10 rounds, and probably 15 if Dundee had not used his common sense.

:good

[MagnificentMatt]

Ever read his chapter in the book "Ali 15 Fighters, 15 Stories", well, that is when i found out, he truly is an asshole rofl.

[Mendoza]

Ali did not win one minute of the fight. Holmes easily outclassed a past his prime Ali. Ali got in what appeared to be good shape to fight Holmes, but the Ali’s skills, stamina and speed were long gone.

I beleive Dundee made the right call and stopped the fight at the prefect time for Ali. Holmes was really coming on. It looked like Ail would be down in another two rounds or so, and likely counted out shortly there after. By stopping the fight, Dundee saved Ali from ending up like Joe Louis.

Ali was an absolute punk in the fight. He delayed the stat of the match with excessive taunting. Howard Cosell had the call. Midway though the fight, Holmes was in clear control. Ali was reduced to trying to land a counter right hand. At one point Ali decided to open up his mouth and talk trash. Cosell quipped, " And Ail is still taunting Holmes! " then Holmes lands a combination on que, and Cosell’s tone changes as he says, " but they fight with gloves, not words "

After the fight Holmes was confronted by a lady who said she hates him. Holmes was perplexed and said but why? Because you knocked out Ali. Holmes reply was, “ I'm sorry lady but it was either him or me. “

In hind sight, I feel Holmes did what he had to do, and really did not want to hurt Ali.

[RoccoMarciano]

Ever read his chapter in the book "Ali 15 Fighters, 15 Stories", well, that is when i found out, he truly is an asshole rofl.

Ali? :lol:

[Jbuz]

Wouldn't change anything. Either way, Ali was broken down, in early stages of Parkinsons. He was on thyrolar to help his hyperthyroid condition, but it only made him lose weight and be constantly sluggish and fatigued. Ali couldn't even throw a punch, KO1 or UD15... wouldn't matter what it was.

[Bill1234]

Ever read his chapter in the book "Ali 15 Fighters, 15 Stories", well, that is when i found out, he truly is an asshole rofl.

Who? Sorry, having a mental block today.

[Duodenum]

Wouldn't change anything. Either way, Ali was broken down, in early stages of Parkinsons. He was on thyrolar to help his hyperthyroid condition, but it only made him lose weight and be constantly sluggish and fatigued. Ali couldn't even throw a punch, KO1 or UD15... wouldn't matter what it was.As you're well aware, Ali discovered that Thyrolar slightly improved his speed and reflexes when taken as directed. Muhammad then figured foolishly that if a little was good, more was better, so he doubled his dose without telling anybody, trying to use Thyrolar as an athletic enhancing substance. Trouble was, when doubling the dose, Tyrolar worsens the symptoms it relieves at prescribed levels. He paid the price, and against Berbick, we caught a glimpse of what he might have been like against Holmes had he not been so recklesss. (Ali wasn't very good in the Bahamas, but he was better there than he was facing Larry.)

If Ali hadn't tampered with his Thyrolar regimen, he still wouldn't have been competitive with Holmes, but he might have lasted the distance, then stayed retired for good. (Before Larry pummeled Muhammad, Dundee said that Ali was in better shape for Holmes than he was for the rematch with Spinks. Keeping that claim in mind, I rewatched his second bout against Leon in it's entirety. Even if he did manage to get himself into better condition, there was simply no way he could have pulled off the miracle without something crooked taking place.)

[Titan1]

It wouldn't have greatly affected his position, the perception, however, may have changed some minds.Ali was a warrior, and despite him being past it, him going out that soon, may have changed some minds.

[TBooze]

It wouldn't have greatly affected his position, the perception, however, may have changed some minds.Ali was a warrior, and despite him being past it, him going out that soon, may have changed some minds.

Watching when Larry met Muhammad (I recommend it just to watch a young sparring partner of Ali (Tim Witherspoon) (figuratively) wet himself talking about his great boss), it kind drills it into me, how little that fight really mattered, as far as boxing went.

It was a painful changing of the guard fight, that we inflict on ourselves in this sport.

That is said with 30 years hindsight, as a six year old, I knew Ali would win: Who could beat Muhammad Ali, let alone stop him?

[Il Duce]

I do remember the black hair dye, and one of the boxing announcers mentioned it before the fight,,,,,,,and noticed during the fight, that 'black dye' was dripping down Ali's face.

Also, before the fight, didn't Ali go into one of those 'make believe quiet moods'.
'I'm not talking, wait untill after the fight'.

Maybe the best, was when he started to grow a mustache, and called himself
"Dark Gable'.

Larry Holmes was in a 'no-win' situation.
Though a good puncher, he was no one-punch guy.
It was pretty obvious though, he was pulling his punches after Round 3.
He could have taken Ali out anytime after the 5th Round.

[reznick]

You cant ask for more class being shown than when Holmes fought Ali.

He was crying in the interview after because he had just beaten up Ali. They might have actually been tears of joy for winning, but even IF that were the case, he took that moment to bow his head to Ali. And to give him the utmost respect a man can give to another by crying for him like that

[TBooze]

You cant ask for more class being shown than when Holmes fought Ali.

He was crying in the interview after because he had just beaten up Ali. They might have actually been tears of joy for winning, but even IF that were the case, he took that moment to bow his head to Ali. And to give him the utmost respect a man can give to another by crying for him like that

Holmes could be a bit of a hot head, (the infamous Marciano jockstrap interview), but them tears seemed genuine to me, Holmes had a lot of respect for Ali, and was no Arsehole.

Even the infamous interview he regretted. The Marciano family forgave him, and he received an reward of them a few years back, and showed his respect, by staying on after the reward, to sign every single autograph that the fancy asked for.

[holysmoker]

you fucking retarded dickhead holmes is no danny green this would have never happened

[Stevie G]

We all know about Ali's ill fated 1980 comeback against Larry Holmes.
Ali lost about 50 lbs, dyed his hair looked great, but when the bell rang, he was nothing more than an empty shell. After taking a one sided beating for 11 rounds, it was mercifully stopped. Of course this loss didn't hurt Ali's legacy because he was old, and way past his prime, and all those rounds that he lasted with Holmes showed this. Holmes beat an old man, an Ali who was no where near his prime, and who shouldnt have even fought Holmes.
But say if in the very first round, before the fight was even 3 minutes old, Ali got nailed, went down, and took a ten count. I wonder if his place in history would be greatly affected. Personally I think it would, because if that scenario happened, people would forever say was he washed up, or did Holmes just knock him cold. And in a scenario such as this i think most people would agree that Ali just got knocked out, because the fight wasnt long enough for people to see a real erosion of his boxing skills. What do you think?
Ali was so far gone by this point,and had stupidly taken thyrolar,that no matter when Holmes would have stopped him,it would have made no difference at all,to his,or Holmes' legacies.

[Il Duce]

Muhammad Ali should have never been allowed in the ring that night.

A beating by Larry Holmes (even with Larry pulling his punches) for what.

MONEY.

And his corner,,,,,,,,,,for letting that fight go past the 6th Round, when it was clear the
guy was done.

[Stevie G]

Maybe I'm in a minority,but I find the notion that Holmes was compassionate to Ali during their fight,was a myth. True,Ali had nothing left,and he was doped up on Thyrolar,but Holmes came out of the starting blocks pretty fast. He was throwing punches with mean intentions throughout. Ali's one surviving gift of taking a monster punch kept him up. In some ways it would have been better if he had have been knocked out early.

[Il Duce]

Stevie G,

The 1st Round, looked more like Larry Holmes telling Muhammad Ali, this isn't going to be a 'circus' for your entertainment.
He did wipe the 'smirk' of Ali's face.

The look on Angelo Dundee's face during the 1st Round is priceless. He knew it was
over, right there mid-way thru that round.

But by Round 5, you can tell Lary Holmes was backing off.

[Stevie G]

Stevie G,

The 1st Round, looked more like Larry Holmes telling Muhammad Ali, this isn't going to be a 'circus' for your entertainment.
He did wipe the 'smirk' of Ali's face.

The look on Angelo Dundee's face during the 1st Round is priceless. He knew it was
over, right there mid-way thru that round.

But by Round 5, you can tell Lary Holmes was backing off.
Holmes was throwing some pretty mean body shots at one point though. Nasty fight. I've never watched it properly. Can't watch Tyson-Holmes either,for similar reasons.

[Il Duce]

Yes,

Larry did open up on some occassions. That one heavy body shot, that hurt Ali bad,
maybe Round 8.

Larry was looking in Ali's corner a couple of times, as if to say 'what do you want me to
do, kill him'.

Many fights I can't watch, just like yourself.
Try watching Kiochi Wajima vs. Oscar Alvarado I, in Japan,,,,,,,,,'brutal'