Is Pacman ducking the biggest challenges & taking a path of least resistance? [Archive]

PowerPuncher

10-10-2007, 05:56 AM

enzo

10-10-2007, 06:04 AM

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Top Rank promoter Bob Arum says just about everybody wants to fight Filipino ring idol Manny Pacquiao but a decision will only be made sometime in mid November, possibly after November 17. By that date Pacquiao would know the winners of the November 3 title defense of WBC super featherweight champion Juan Manuel Marquez against Rocky Juarez and the November 17 battle between WBO 130 pound title holder Joan Guzman and Humberto Soto.

In an overseas telephone conversation with Viva Sports/Manila Standard Today from New York, Arum said “we are going to be making a decision around there, who he will fight.” The decision would possibly be made when Pacquiao visits New York for the battle between Miguel Cotto and Sugar Shane Mosley at Madison Square Garden on November 10.

Arum disclosed he would be meeting with the HBO people and said “we are going to get a date for him (Pacquiao) in early March.” He said we are “looking at the winner of the Marquez-Juarez fight, we are looking at the winner of the Soto-Guzman fight and maybe if he wants to go up in weight to 135 pounds since he had a little difficulty in making the weight and looked very drawn,” it wouldn't be a problem.

Arum said Roach may want Pacquiao to go up to 135 pounds in which case one of the “possible opponents would be David Diaz for the WBC lightweight title.” Diaz is the fighter who scored a thrilling but close unanimous decision over Erik “El Terrible” Morales last August 4.

theunderdog

10-10-2007, 06:04 AM

The biggest challenges at 130 are: 1. Guzman/Soto winner, 2. JMM, 3. Guzman/Soto loser

The biggest challenges at 135: 1. Juan Diaz/Julio Diaz winner 2. Cassamoya 3.Diaz/Diaz loser 4. Katsidis 5. Romanov 6. Raheem 7. Freitas 8. Kid Diamond

Who does Pacman call out? David Diaz a none top 8 name at 135, which is very disapointing. Maybe he needs to test the water and I suppose DD has a belt but its not a massive challange. And Pacman will have left 130 without facing his 2 biggest challenges

yes, i think he is picking the most vulnerable champ at 135. no excuses there. some people say that he's doing it for his friend EM but all that's bullcrap. he wants a belt and the easiest way to get it while still having a sellable ppv is david diaz. look at the other champs at 135 and 130. others like mzonke fana won't sell as opponents and others like guzman and juan diaz are big risks.

david diaz present the best risk;reward ratio IMO.

and by the way, i disagree with your rankings. jmm is the top challenge at 130 and casamayor is the toughest matchup at 135 for pac. and if you really think about it, raheem should be higher in that list because he is just all wrong for pac.

bulakenyo

10-10-2007, 06:05 AM

he said he can still swing from 130 to 135 and back again anytime.

he's scheduled to fight 4 times next year. he's gonna have at the very least 2 super fights next year and 2 tune-ups.

If we fans get lucky, he may have 3 or 4 super fights.

And Marquez is on one of those fights, guaranteed.

enzo

10-10-2007, 06:08 AM

let's wait... like they said they will be announcing pac's opponent mid november. It seems like everybody wants a piece of the pacman.

McGrain

10-10-2007, 06:10 AM

He needs Marquez in my view.

theunderdog

10-10-2007, 06:11 AM

let's wait... like they said they will be announcing pac's opponent mid november. It seems like everybody wants a piece of the pacman.

of course they do. it will guarantee them their biggest check ever, would catapult their careers if they won, and would be respected if they survived. wanting a fight against pac is a no brainer

PATSYS

10-10-2007, 06:21 AM

Until those guys you listed done something remarkable to reach Pac's stardom level, Pac can fight whoever he wants from hereon and not being accused of ducking anybody. Pac has fought top guys after top guys and big names in the sport and he wages war in the ring, he doesn't just jab, grab and run for 36 minutes.

If you are asking why Pac is not taking the hardest fights all the time, why don't you ask the same question to the guys you listed.

Out of all of them, the only ones worthy of Pac's time in terms of resume is probably Casa and Guzman (if he beats Soto). But these 2 have to gain a solid market base to be worthy of a Pac fight.

McGrain

10-10-2007, 06:32 AM

Until those guys you listed done something remarkable to reach Pac's stardom level, Pac can fight whoever he wants from hereon and not being accused of ducking anybody.

This here is what every superstar ducker ever has said to himself.

Oscar, for all his faults, has used his stardom to seek out challanges. Pacman should do the same. If he doesn't, he can retire as far as I am concerned.

Gulf in class between our best fighters and their competition is the biggest drag on boxing (Calzaghe etc.).

The guys most worthy of respect are the guys who take on the best, like Pac has. Long may that continue.

bumdujour

10-10-2007, 06:41 AM

yes he is. so far i only seen him beat up on faded/shot latin legends!!

why doesnt he take on a prime fighter like valero or guzman??

PATSYS

10-10-2007, 06:50 AM

This here is what every superstar ducker ever has said to himself.

Oscar, for all his faults, has used his stardom to seek out challanges. Pacman should do the same. If he doesn't, he can retire as far as I am concerned.

Gulf in class between our best fighters and their competition is the biggest drag on boxing (Calzaghe etc.).

The guys most worthy of respect are the guys who take on the best, like Pac has. Long may that continue.

Really? Is that why Oscar fought Castillejo and Vargas instead of Winky Wright to get a 154 belt? Or fought Sturm (which everybody thought was a patsy at that time) to get a 160 lb belt?

I am not dissing DLH's level of opposition but he hardly fought up and comers. He chose to fight big name fighters throughout his career that warrants him the biggest purses.

Pac has been fighting top guys. Right after MAB, he went straight to JMM and after one tune up fight, fought a very tough versions of Morales 3X. Before MAB, Pac fought many tough fighters like Sasakul, Hussein, Ledwaba. You cannot expect Pac (who already has a lot of wear and tear mileage on him) to entertain just about any fighter who is thought to beat him. They have to earn it, plain and simple. Take a look at JMM, who the fukk has he fought his entire career? Except for Pac, the 2nd biggest name in his resume is a faded MAB whom not many people are giving Pac credit for beating again recently. And amny thought MAB beat JMM.

I say let Jmm fight the winner of Guzman-Soto and after that, the winner has the right to bitch if Pac doesn't fight him.

retriever

10-10-2007, 06:56 AM

He needs Marquez in my view.

i think its the other way around. But they need to fight.

psychopath

10-10-2007, 07:42 AM

The biggest challenges at 130 are: 1. Guzman/Soto winner, 2. JMM, 3. Guzman/Soto loser

The biggest challenges at 135: 1. Juan Diaz/Julio Diaz winner 2. Cassamoya 3.Diaz/Diaz loser 4. Katsidis 5. Romanov 6. Raheem 7. Freitas 8. Kid Diamond

Who does Pacman call out? David Diaz a none top 8 name at 135, which is very disapointing. Maybe he needs to test the water and I suppose DD has a belt but its not a massive challange. And Pacman will have left 130 without facing his 2 biggest challenges

Brotha look at it on the other point of view . . . IF Pac will go up to 135 and fight David Diaz. . . his first fight at the division is against a belt holder not against a HYPED UP patsy.

The way you talk . . . as if Pacquaio is not entittled to make a tune up fight before he takes on the real big ones. :D :lol:

Now at 130? He already declared that the winner of JMM/Juarez and or Valero is being considered. It all depends on the negotiation . . . if it doesn't push through that doesn't necessarilly mean the guy is taking a path of least resistance. It's because of failed negotiations. :yep

LogDog69

10-10-2007, 08:19 AM

I know there are certain fights that Pac should take but he can't fight every opponent that everyone wants him to fight in one night, hell he can't even do that in one year. If he would have fought Marquez in his last fight instead of Barrera, there would be people that would have said, "He's ducking Barrera, he doesn't want to take the rematch because he knows he beat Barrera when he was at his most vulnerable." Let's just see who he chooses for his next few opponents and pass our permanent judgement after that. I would personally prefer to see him fight Casa, Juan, or Marquez more than I'd like to see him fight David Diaz but let's just see what happens.

dangerousity

10-10-2007, 08:42 AM

Was MAB a faded legend when Pac faced him? Why was he ranked top 5 p4p and 4-1 favourite? Was JMM a faded legend? Last I heard he was the champ and the most dangerous fight for Pac at 126. Was Morales a faded legend? Last I heard he was favourite for their first fight or atleast 50/50. On the rematch, which had to happen as he lost it was also 50/50 on the odds. The 3rd fight happened for one simple reason, to finish the trilogy and the MAB fight had to happen because of money and to give MAB his last fight wish.

Between MAB1, JMM, Morales 1 & 2 he was known to be taking on the hardest and toughest challenge out there. The fights that followed couldnt be avoided.

pejevan

10-11-2007, 12:36 AM

If you are asking why Pac is not taking the hardest fights all the time, why don't you ask the same question to the guys you listed.

Double standards always exist in any avenue of life, may it be boxing or any other pursuit. And the higher the expectation, the more this exist.

If you look at Pacman's (not even a legitimate belt holder) last few fights (MAB, EM, Larios,JMM, Solis), anybody in that resume would beat a B+ fighter unprepared.

In contrast, Joan Guzman, the reigning WBO champion, fought the likes of Sanchez (3 years retired prior to that fight with last fight against Pac in a foulfest ), Joe Morales, Fernando Beltran, Jandaeng, Jauregui, Barrios, and Davis. Despite all of these fights being in defense of his WBO title, no one seems question the issue of quality.

JMM, the WBA and IBF featherweight champion, despite being billed "great" and some would say greater than both EM and MAB skillwise, had mediocre opponents for his Title defenses after the Pac fight. He fought the likes of Salido, Jandaeng, polo, John (totally unknown prior to the "rumble in indonesian parking lot" fight), Jaca.

I won't even mention Valero, the third one who holds another belt because there is really nothing to write in regards to opposition.

Yet when Pac fought Solis, a respectable 32-0-2 fighter, so much ruckus was raised (try counting the threads raised in ESB). What people could not comprehend that it was a tune-up fight, similar to the Larios fight. Although those were just tune-up fights (probably a misnomer because I believe only champions have tune-up fights), larios and Solis were no pushover. It seemed that everybody wants Pac to fight fighters the caliber of EM, MAB or JMM all the time.

theunderdog

10-11-2007, 12:39 AM

Double standards always exist in any avenue of life, may it be boxing or any other pursuit. And the higher the expectation, the more this exist.

If you look at Pacman's (not even a legitimate belt holder) last few fights (MAB, EM, Larios,JMM, Solis), anybody in that resume would beat a B+ fighter unprepared.

In contrast, Joan Guzman, the reigning WBO champion, fought the likes of Sanchez (3 years retired prior to that fight with last fight against Pac in a foulfest ), Joe Morales, Fernando Beltran, Jandaeng, Jauregui, Barrios, and Davis. Despite all of these fights being in defense of his WBO title, no one seems question the issue of quality.

JMM, the WBA and IBF featherweight champion, despite being billed "great" and some would say greater than both EM and MAB skillwise, had mediocre opponents for his Title defenses after the Pac fight. He fought the likes of Salido, Jandaeng, polo, John (totally unknown prior to the "rumble in indonesian parking lot" fight), Jaca.

I won't even mention Valero, the third one who holds another belt because there is really nothing to write in regards to opposition.

Yet when Pac fought Solis, a respectable 32-0-2 fighter, so much ruckus was raised (try counting the threads raised in ESB). What people could not comprehend that it was a tune-up fight, similar to the Larios fight. Although those were just tune-up fights (probably a misnomer because I believe only champions have tune-up fights), larios and Solis were no pushover. It seemed that everybody wants Pac to fight fighters the caliber of EM, MAB or JMM all the time.

i wonder how many of those 32 were tomato cans. at least larrios fought reasonable opposition. solis is a nobody with a padded record. he may have 32 wins but i know that the defining moment of his career was getting to the ring and losing against pac

Stovepipe

10-11-2007, 12:40 AM

Stovepipe

10-11-2007, 12:44 AM

i wonder how many of those 32 were tomato cans. at least larrios fought reasonable opposition. solis is a nobody with a padded record. he may have 32 wins but i know that the defining moment of his career was getting to the ring and losing against pac

Untrue. These fighters may not be the top dogs but they are far from tomato cans

Hector Marquez (twice)
Nicky Bentz
Orlando Soto
Cristobal Cruz
Wilson Alcorro (one win and one draw)

Stinky gloves

10-11-2007, 12:49 AM

I really don't think the least resistance is to move up with weight and fight other p4p fighters over there.

Diaz/Diaz/Casamayor/Katsidis are more challenging than Marquez/Guzman/Soto.

PAC beat already two most challenging fighters in Morales and Barrera,
he fully deserve to take path he wants.

BtW, you just hater thats all.

It would be great however if PAC fight Guzman some day.

mad_takamura

10-11-2007, 12:52 AM

theunderdog

10-11-2007, 12:53 AM

Untrue. These fighters may not be the top dogs but they are far from tomato cans

Hector Marquez (twice)
Nicky Bentz
Orlando Soto
Cristobal Cruz
Wilson Alcorro (one win and one draw)

so that's 7 fights against contenders at best. look closely at the other fighters that solis took on. llok how ugly their records are ugly. fighting guys with records of 22-27, 0-17, 22-17, 16-14 really is not insipring.

kg0208

10-11-2007, 12:55 AM

so that's 7 fights against contenders at best. look closely at the other fighters that solis took on. llok how ugly their records are ugly. fighting guys with records of 22-27, 0-17, 22-17, 16-14 really is not insipring.

To be fair, Solis is a good fighter in the 126lb division and should win a title or two there. He doesn't carry 130 well.....and his resume is average.

enzo

10-11-2007, 01:01 AM

Stinky gloves

10-11-2007, 01:03 AM

Pacman has been fighting superb competition up until 04 against Marquez, but he's been fighting mediocre opposition ever since...

It's time for him to step up to a real challenge once again because there's no doubt in my mind that he's a warrior... although he is a one dimensional warrior.

Real challenge is Guzman and Marquez but is also even bigger at 135 lb.
RIght now its for me 50/50 whether PAC wants stay at 130 and clear up the division
or move at 135 and try to do damage over there.

The only PAC fight I like to see at 130 is with Guzman right now.

mad_takamura

10-11-2007, 01:09 AM

Untrue. These fighters may not be the top dogs but they are far from tomato cans

Hector Marquez (twice)
Nicky Bentz
Orlando Soto
Cristobal Cruz
Wilson Alcorro (one win and one draw)1 win and 1 draw is still a bum to me. my god, he's only starting out. do you want me to name boxers who started with a win then followed it with a lot of losses?
not that i'm discrediting solis he had a good bro. in ulysses but for me: he still got a lot to prove.
and that pac fight certified that even more.

pejevan

10-11-2007, 01:13 AM

i wonder how many of those 32 were tomato cans. at least larrios fought reasonable opposition. solis is a nobody with a padded record. he may have 32 wins but i know that the defining moment of his career was getting to the ring and losing against pac

It does not matter how many were tomato cans. It was a tune-up fight, a keep-busy fight. It was not even a championship fight. I believe that PAC is entitled to have an easy fight. The fights prior to Solis were Morales,MAB, JMM, Larios. If you have a schedule like that,your career in the ring would not be long. Even MAB, EM, or Roberto Duran had not fought that quality of opponents in succession.

Pac could have chosen a 23-8-2 fighter (like Salido), or a 51-12-2 (like Jauregui) fighter or a 32-10-5 fighter and he would still receive the same degree of flak. Yet he chose a 32-0-2 fighter whose resume might not glitter as EM, MAB, JMM or even Larios, yet a very live opponent.

They already knew that they would defeat This Solis guy and it can be seen by the physical conditioning of PAc in that fight. But that is what a tune-up fights' purpose is, so that people will ot forget that you exist. Solis gave a good account of himself in that fight until that headbutt occurred.

jimmie

10-11-2007, 01:23 AM

Really? Is that why Oscar fought Castillejo and Vargas instead of Winky Wright to get a 154 belt? Or fought Sturm (which everybody thought was a patsy at that time) to get a 160 lb belt?

I am not dissing DLH's level of opposition but he hardly fought up and comers. He chose to fight big name fighters throughout his career that warrants him the biggest purses.

Pac has been fighting top guys. Right after MAB, he went straight to JMM and after one tune up fight, fought a very tough versions of Morales 3X. Before MAB, Pac fought many tough fighters like Sasakul, Hussein, Ledwaba. You cannot expect Pac (who already has a lot of wear and tear mileage on him) to entertain just about any fighter who is thought to beat him. They have to earn it, plain and simple. Take a look at JMM, who the fukk has he fought his entire career? Except for Pac, the 2nd biggest name in his resume is a faded MAB whom not many people are giving Pac credit for beating again recently. And amny thought MAB beat JMM.

I say let Jmm fight the winner of Guzman-Soto and after that, the winner has the right to bitch if Pac doesn't fight him.

Bro when Oscar and Vargas signed on for a fight with each other Vargas had been calling him out for years,was a superstar and had already beaten Wright who had just beaten Robert Fraizer for a vacant belt. If Oscar wouldve lets say went after a fight with Daniel Santos at 154 for a belt right after Winky beat Shane for a 2nd fight then you couldve talked some smack. A fight with Wright then was pointless when a fight with Vargas was meant to be and was a huge success. I think Sturm was cause he had the 1 world title Hopkins didnt have and Oscar figured ill beat this unknown to grab the belt and a win heading into the mega fight with Hopkins.

Stinky gloves

10-11-2007, 01:31 AM

I feel that Pac has unfinished business at 130 but if he moves up to 135 against the likes of Diaz and Casa, I wouldnt complain.

The only unfinished bussines is with Marquez, but I guess it was a draw
so untill Marquez is calling loudly after PAC then the problem doesn't exist.

MAB was recently more interested fighting PAC than Marquez,
so If PAC wants go up then he should be just cheered up in this effort.
It is not an easy task ... Morales just found this out two times.

kg0208

10-11-2007, 01:33 AM

Bro when Oscar and Vargas signed on for a fight with each other Vargas had been calling him out for years,was a superstar and had already beaten Wright who had just beaten Robert Fraizer for a vacant belt. If Oscar wouldve lets say went after a fight with Daniel Santos at 154 for a belt right after Winky beat Shane for a 2nd fight then you couldve talked some smack. A fight with Wright then was pointless when a fight with Vargas was meant to be and was a huge success. I think Sturm was cause he had the 1 world title Hopkins didnt have and Oscar figured ill beat this unknown to grab the belt and a win heading into the mega fight with Hopkins.

And this part completely debunks the other part of the argument that DLH didn't give shots to up and comers. Sturm got more notoriety in that fight no matter what DLH's motives were.

BTW, this whole "he isn't worthy of fighting Pacman" and he "has to earn his shot" is crap. The other side of that is this: if a belt holder who is unbeaten and in the same weight class hasn't earned it, then whomever Pacman fights at that weight class has earned it HOW?

That said, give Pacman time. It seems he is keeping his options open at both 130 and 135. He hopefully will take on the top fighters in whatever division he's in. But please, no more of this "He hasn't earned a shot at Pacman" crap. The standards being set when this is said means that NO ONE is worthy, leaving Pacman open to fight whom?

doknochrisan

10-11-2007, 01:38 AM

1 win and 1 draw is still a bum to me. my god, he's only starting out. do you want me to name boxers who started with a win then followed it with a lot of losses?
not that i'm discrediting solis he had a good bro. in ulysses but for me: he still got a lot to prove.
and that pac fight certified that even more.

its not his record.

Stinky gloves

10-11-2007, 01:42 AM

If Pac is really having weight issues, then I would support his decision to move up, what can i say??? but if that's not the case, he should stick around for awhile longer because he still has good competition at 130. Not only Marquez but Soto and guzman as well, although i feel that guzman would lose, he would still make it competitive fight...

I agree, it would be great if he could stop for next year and
fight Marquez and Guzman at 130lb.

But I do not agree that going up at 135lb is easier parth and PAC is
doing this because he is scared of Guzman or Marquez ... maybe a little.

Seriously going up is probably more natural for him since he wieght above 140 lb.
I guess he can still fight Guzman or Marquez at catch weight ...
similarly like Floyd is fighting Hatton now.
It requires however a strong willing of Marquez or Guzman for this fight
and probably these fights may be still done at the end of 2008 or in 2009.

kg0208

10-11-2007, 01:44 AM

Question....has Guzman said he wants to fight Pacman?

Stinky gloves

10-11-2007, 01:53 AM

Question....has Guzman said he wants to fight Pacman?

Did he send him official challenge or present any money offer?

kg0208

10-11-2007, 01:55 AM

Did he send him official challenge or present any money offer?

Anything....has he even spoken on record of wanting to fight Pacman. I wholly believe Pacman should fight Guzman or Soto IF he can make 130. However, has Guzman ever said he wants to fight Pacquiao?

mad_takamura

10-11-2007, 01:58 AM

its not his record. ok i get it now: sorry

Stinky gloves

10-11-2007, 02:10 AM

Yes, even if Pacman makes the jump, he can always fight the super featherweights at a catchweight but the problem with that is MArquez does not have much time... That fight needs to happen within a year.

Its not that they never fought, from the historical point of view its a draw.
This mean another fight between PAC and Marquez is not required in order to rank them in the boxing history.

Oh and whoever said fighting 135 is an easier path??? that's just crazy talk right there..

"Pacman ducking the biggest challenges & taking a path of least resistance"

Pacman does come in at 140 on fight nights but is that really a natural weight for him? How effective will his power be when fighting against the naturally bigger men??

You don't wanna say he is specially puffing himself up to unnatural weight of 144lb for fight night?

The difference at 135lb will be that his opponents will be stronger and
they will have better chins.
I think he maybe at least competitive.

Bangis

10-11-2007, 02:53 AM

If Pac is really having weight issues, then I would support his decision to move up, what can i say??? but if that's not the case, he should stick around for awhile longer because he still has good competition at 130. Not only Marquez but Soto and guzman as well, although i feel that guzman would lose, he would still make it competitive fight...

I dont think he really is having weight issues... i believe he can make 130 if he is focused in his training(not like the show he put up for his MAB 2 fight)... maybe its a little bit tougher for him to trim to 130 but he can still manage it... why would he say that he could jump back and forth from 130 to 135 if he REALLY is having trouble with his weight...

with this said i dont think PAC is taking the path of the least resistance... PAC is a WARRIOR and would fight anybody... I remember people adoring him for fighting MAB, JMM then Erik concsecutively.... his choice of opponents really depends on his management who wants more money....
I hope PAC fights JMM next!

mad_takamura

10-11-2007, 04:00 AM

I dont think he really is having weight issues... i believe he can make 130 if he is focused in his training(not like the show he put up for his MAB 2 fight)... maybe its a little bit tougher for him to trim to 130 but he can still manage it. you are right on that one. :good
his choice of opponents really depends on his management who wants more money... especially atty.gacal"the jackal" who do not know nothing about boxing but $$$!. he is the one who told manny to run for congressman :fire with those kind of people in pac's circle we better be wary about blockbuster fights risking to happen. :nono
I hope PAC fights JMM next! right. :good that's what all of us wanted to happen.

Bangis

10-11-2007, 04:31 AM

especially atty.gacal"the jackal" who do not know nothing about boxing but $$$!. he is the one who told manny to run for congressman :fire with those kind of people in pac's circle we better be wary about blockbuster fights risking to happen. :nono

MAN i cant agree with you more... "the jackal" has done nothing but ruin PAC's career... correct me if im wrong, but i think he has accompanied PAC when PAC signed the 2 contracts with TR/GBP... now what kind of lawyer would let his client do such a stupid thing. i hope PAC opens his eyes and see all those leeches around him.

Gacal is very incompetent... and cares for his best interest not PAC's...