Do people REALLY believe...

[IceJohnScully]

Do people REALLY believe...that 5 foot 10 and 185 pound Rocky Marciano would knock out guys like Lennox and Foreman??? And... would the Rock knock out the likes of Holyfield if he was a cruiserweight? AND... Wouldn't James Toney and the Rock at 185 pounds be fun to watch?? I do think the Rock was underrated somewhat as a fighter. His will to win was above average as well as his work ethic and dedication were on par with almost anybody in history. He was a true "never say die" boxer but if he was matched up with the bigger, stronger heavyweights or with guys his size like a James Toney that had great defensive and counter punching skills, I think he would ultimately be outclassed or overpowered.

[El Bombasto]

Nope, but I still think he was a greater boxer than both. And, I would take him over Toney at 185

[BoxingGuru]

No. Walcott was beating Rocky. NO WAY he gets out of a fight with a superheavyweight alive. Wlad, Vitali, and Lennox would all destroy him.

[Punisher33]

I think Marciano was a real champ and a reminder of when the average man knew who the heavywieght champ was, as far as Wlad is concerned thats tough choice, but if Marciano would get in on Wlad and tap that weak chin of his it would be all over. Alot of people think bigger is better and thats not true, give me a guy like Marciano who had power and heart over someone like Wlad who has questionable heart and Power,Size Ill take Marciano anyday.

[raiderjay]

No, he would probably get destroyed against the super heavyweights of later generations, but to make everything even, if he were fighting today he would either be cutting weight and making lightheavy at 175 and be considered the greatest lightheavy of all time. Or he would be using supplements and bulk up to around 210-220 lbs and be at the very least competitive in the same way David Tua was.

[Jack]

Mr. Scully, please go post this in the Classic Forum. I agree with you completely on all your points. But many people hold this delusion that Marciano against Supersized Heavyweights will:
I thought the same thing about the classic forum. It'd be really interesting to see what comes out of a thread over there. Obviously you have the fans with a huge knowledge who think it is possible and then an ex-pro and now a trainer, saying it isn't.

It'd be great stuff.

[Zakman]

There is another factor that could hurt the Rock if he were fighting in later eras - his tendency to cut. Officials today are far more likely to stop fights when fighters are bleeding than they were in the Rock's day. I think it is highly unlikely Marciano would be undefeated even if he fought in the 70s, let alone today.

[GazOC]

Johnson, Dempsey, Louis and Marciano would all struggle against the top-tier 16-17 stone and over guys of the last ten years or so. That doesn't denigrate their achievements but you've got to be realistic.

To me Liston and Ali are the earliest HW champs who would stand a chance.

[SteveO]

The Rock would get stopped on cuts a lot. Maybe MAYBE be a fringe HW.

Be a good Cruiser, though.

[Boom_Boom]

that 0 on Marciano's record is blindly fooling those who do.

[GazOC]

Be a good Cruiser, though.

Him, Dempsey and Johnson. All great fighters and great Cruisers today:good

[SteveO]

Him, Dempsey and Johnson. All great fighters and great Cruisers today:good

Jack Johnson...good one!

In this day and age, his defensive skills would be appreciated and not be passed off as a racial shortcoming.

Johnson v. Marciano...hmmm.

[MSTR]

Do people REALLY believe...that 5 foot 10 and 185 pound Rocky Marciano would knock out guys like Lennox and Foreman??? And... would the Rock knock out the likes of Holyfield if he was a cruiserweight? AND... Wouldn't James Toney and the Rock at 185 pounds be fun to watch?? I do think the Rock was underrated somewhat as a fighter. His will to win was above average as well as his work ethic and dedication were on par with almost anybody in history. He was a true "never say die" boxer but if he was matched up with the bigger, stronger heavyweights or with guys his size like a James Toney that had great defensive and counter punching skills, I think he would ultimately be outclassed or overpowered.
ThankGod. Its so nice to meet someone else who isn't overwhelmed with these nostalgic/romanticised views of older fighters. Rocky sure was great for his TIME, but in reality, guys with more skill, and still with great conditioning and work rates were always going to beat him up, especially massive guys like Wlad or Lennox, who would quite simply blast him out of the ring.

[Marnoff]

Do people REALLY believe...that 5 foot 10 and 185 pound Rocky Marciano would knock out guys like Lennox and Foreman??? And... would the Rock knock out the likes of Holyfield if he was a cruiserweight? AND... Wouldn't James Toney and the Rock at 185 pounds be fun to watch?? I do think the Rock was underrated somewhat as a fighter. His will to win was above average as well as his work ethic and dedication were on par with almost anybody in history. He was a true "never say die" boxer but if he was matched up with the bigger, stronger heavyweights or with guys his size like a James Toney that had great defensive and counter punching skills, I think he would ultimately be outclassed or overpowered.

His will to win was only "above average"? You underrate him, undoubtedly.

[Ambition_Def]

The youngest heavyweight champion ever came in the 1980s when the big men were around, and he was only 5'10.

If Mike Tyson could clean these guys out by getting inside and landing combinations, I don't see why Rocky Marciano couldn't.

I'd pick Rocky to beat many of them because the big heavyweights today are simply awful. They have limited outside game and ZERO inside game. We aren't talking about heavyweights with the spirit to throw uppercuts and hooks inside. Not even body punches. It's been a long time since we've seen a Riddick Bowe, much less a young George Foreman (who I think may have been the one to KO Marciano).

I think you may be surprised should Povetkin at this stage of his career secure an IBF title shot. I'd pick a versatile small heavyweight over a limited big heavyweight anyday.

[Butch Coolidge]

I think Marciano fighting one of the top heavies of today would be like Corrie Sanders vs Bobby Czyz. Marciano was champ of a less numerous field of much smaller men.

[maximumsg]

wil three hundred pounds be the best heavyweights of the future. Like a guy like goldburg ( not a wrestling fan just think he is a freak) I bet in twenty years the heavy weight champ looks something like him.

[Decker]

I will take the guy with the Jab that is three feet long and feels like you are being clubbed with a baseball bat. Please explain how Marciano is going to slip inside Wladimirs punches and hit his chin. Wladimir is 8 inches taller than he is and has a 14 inch reach advantage. Marciano wouldnt do shit but get hit in the face all night. Wladimir would just counter him anytime he tried to move inside. Marciano gets knocked out in 4. His agression is going to play right into Wlads hand, same thing with Lennox, same with Vitali.:good
Fighting today he could be CW champ. As a bulked up HW, he would be ordinary.

[Decker]

The youngest heavyweight champion ever came in the 1980s when the big men were around, and he was only 5'10.

If Mike Tyson could clean these guys out by getting inside and landing combinations, I don't see why Rocky Marciano couldn't.

I'd pick Rocky to beat many of them because the big heavyweights today are simply awful. They have limited outside game and ZERO inside game. We aren't talking about heavyweights with the spirit to throw uppercuts and hooks inside. Not even body punches. It's been a long time since we've seen a Riddick Bowe, much less a young George Foreman (who I think may have been the one to KO Marciano).

I think you may be surprised should Povetkin at this stage of his career secure an IBF title shot. I'd pick a versatile small heavyweight over a limited big heavyweight anyday.AD you continue to underrate the recent and current HWs. Tyson was a bigger version of Marciano, and many think he avoided the 40+ Foreman. When Tyson's fire started to fade and he slowed down as he got older - he became beatable. Douglas was the first to show this at/near Tyson's prime. A 38 year old Tyson's performance vs McBride (a big, strong oaf) was worse than Ali vs Homes or Louis vs Rocky.

I'd give Marciano the edge over Tyson in stamina and will to overcome adversity... but no way he beats guys like LL or Wlad - regardless of what some posters think of their chins :yep

And c'mon, Povetkin is a "big" HW compared to Rocky ! But smallish in this era. Let's see what Alex P accomplishes as his career continues. He might do very well - nobody knows for sure.

[Lampley]

I think the non-prime Roy Jones takes Rock at 175. He'd be way too fast. And at HW, Marciano would have some fun fights before getting hurt. Bad. He was great and you have to evaluate him for his era, but his style would not translate well to the present era.

[sues2nd]

No...but he would be an absolute BEAST at LHW/CW. No doubt about it.

[cuchulain]

There is another factor that could hurt the Rock if he were fighting in later eras - his tendency to cut. Officials today are far more likely to stop fights when fighters are bleeding than they were in the Rock's day. I think it is highly unlikely Marciano would be undefeated even if he fought in the 70s, let alone today.


Your last sentence implies that you feel the 70's was a weaker era than today.

Or could I be mistaken ?

[cuchulain]

Do people REALLY believe...that 5 foot 10 and 185 pound Rocky Marciano would knock out guys like Lennox and Foreman??? And... would the Rock knock out the likes of Holyfield if he was a cruiserweight? AND... Wouldn't James Toney and the Rock at 185 pounds be fun to watch?? I do think the Rock was underrated somewhat as a fighter. His will to win was above average as well as his work ethic and dedication were on par with almost anybody in history. He was a true "never say die" boxer but if he was matched up with the bigger, stronger heavyweights or with guys his size like a James Toney that had great defensive and counter punching skills, I think he would ultimately be outclassed or overpowered.


IMO, Lennox and Foreman would beat Marciano. And not because of their size alone (Rocky beat bigger guys than either of them). They would beat him because of their size and skill levels combined.


At 185, Toney might not make it out of the first round. Then again, he could last 5 or 6.

I believe he would stop Holy as well.

[Antsu]

Shouldn’t we take account that Marciano with modern training would be weighting more than 185 lbs? He could be 215-225 lbs easily. And with that weight he would be more competitive against modern giants.

[cuchulain]

Do people REALLY believe...that 5 foot 10 and 185 pound Rocky Marciano would knock out guys like Lennox and Foreman??? And... would the Rock knock out the likes of Holyfield if he was a cruiserweight? AND... Wouldn't James Toney and the Rock at 185 pounds be fun to watch?? I do think the Rock was underrated somewhat as a fighter. His will to win was above average as well as his work ethic and dedication were on par with almost anybody in history. He was a true "never say die" boxer but if he was matched up with the bigger, stronger heavyweights or with guys his size like a James Toney that had great defensive and counter punching skills, I think he would ultimately be outclassed or overpowered.


IMO, Lennox and Foreman would beat Marciano. And not because of their size alone (Rocky beat bigger guys than either of them). They would beat him because of their size and skill levels combined.


At 185, Toney might not make it out of the first round. then again, he could last 5 or 6.

I believe he would stop Holy as well.

[Ambition_Def]

AD you continue to underrate the recent and current HWs. Tyson was a bigger version of Marciano, and many think he avoided the 40+ Foreman. When Tyson's fire started to fade and he slowed down as he got older - he became beatable. Douglas was the first to show this at/near Tyson's prime. A 38 year old Tyson's performance vs McBride (a big, strong oaf) was worse than Ali vs Homes or Louis vs Rocky.

I'd give Marciano the edge over Tyson in stamina and will to overcome adversity... but no way he beats guys like LL or Wlad - regardless of what some posters think of their chins :yep


Through my own admission I do believe that guys like George Foreman and Riddick Bowe were better suited to beat smaller men. These were big men who did not abandon their inside game. They knew how to defend themselves in close.

However these big heavyweights have gone missing. Replaced by guys like Lennox Lewis, Vitali Klitschlo and Waldo Klitschko. All these big heavyweights do is lean in and grab inside. And they are also guilty of falling in behind right hands.

Take a look at the small heavyweights of the past 2 eras. Really take a close look at them. From guys like Michael Moorer, to David Tua, to Chris Byrd. These small heavyweights are all missing some vital components to being competitive against the average big man. It could be chin, it could be power, it could be technique. None of these packages represent what Tyson was in the 80s, or what Rocky Marciano was in the 50s.

A smaller heavyweight who has the ability to throw a hook to the body with an uppercut off the same hand will work these giant clinchers. Just like Mike Tyson did in the 80s. Rocky was only 5'10 true, but the way these big guys fall in and grab he'd have no issues with getting close to their chins. And Rocky had that real short compact right hand that'd get in before those big clinchers could close the gap.

Let's use Sam Peter as an example of the best small heavyweight today. As much as I like Sam Peter, I do not believe he is a good model of how smaller heavyweights with power and chins would do against giant heavies. Sam is horribly inexperienced, and is also a bit slow and thick for the boxing game. The other Nigerian import, Ike Ibeabuchi, was one who would handle these big clinchers with ease. Also consider as crude as Samuel Peter was in the fight with Waldo, he STILL knocked him down 3 times. Imagine if you will had Sam Peter the short right hand of Marciano, or the handspeed and savvy of an Ike Ibeabuchi.

I do believe that the sport needs renewed rules, particularly on clinching. That said, had Rocky Marciano fought Steward's Waldo Klitschko, we wouldn't be talking about Waldo, we'd be talking about Marciano today.

And c'mon, Povetkin is a "big" HW compared to Rocky ! But smallish in this era. Let's see what Alex P accomplishes as his career continues. He might do very well - nobody knows for sure.

Slightly bigger. My point being that Povetkin is probably the most well rounded, experienced smaller heavyweight that has come down the pipe since the likes of Evander Holyfield and Ike Ibeabuchi.

These guys aren't like Sam Peter. They have the ring savvy and understanding of how to get in on big men and land. Even with the clinching, remember how sharp Evander was on Riddick Bowe. Povetkin has since shown that brilliance of short power shots inside. Those will be instrumental in scoring the upset should he make it to the IBF title fight.

[Ambition_Def]

One other point to make is that you guys seem to think that from 200lbs to 220lbs there is a significant difference in punching power. After about 190lbs up there comes a point where any clean punch can hurt you, should the thrower have sitten down on it.

True Tyson was a bit heavier than Marciano. That said, Marciano sat down on that right hand no different than Tyson sat down on his. Where Tyson got his power from was the compact accuracy of those right hands. Same place Marciano got his.

Look at Sam Peter. 250lbs, and his right hands really take alot of work to score a KO. Weight has very little to do with power. It comes from leverage, accuracy and gravity. and THEN weight becomes a factor.

[Antsu]

I really dont think so. I could see him weiging maybe 195, but Marciano was not a big guy. If you look at fotos of him he was already pretty muscular. So I question whether extra muscle mass is going to do anything more than slow him down and affect his stamina. Tyson weighed 220, but he had a very stocky build, and he was that weight without ever actually lifting heavy weights. HWs who are weight lifters, Frank Bruno being a recent example, he tired in the later rounds and the extra muscle mass affected his stamina. weight training ca help for strength, but in boxing trying to add sheer bulk really doesnt have much in the way of benefits. Marciano I think would weigh 190-195. Perfect for a Crusier. But if he was to add 25 pounds of just muscle, i doubt he would be as effective. His speed would likely slow down, and so would his punch output as well.

Well Evander Hollyfield was muscular when fighting in 180 lbs and didnt loose his speed and stamina when he added 35 lbs muscle.
Also today’s Marciano would be naturally bigger because of modern nutrition’s so he wouldn’t have to add that much muscle.
That said I think super heavy like Lewis would destroy Marciano even with added muscle mass

[Ambition_Def]

Marciano's pressure and persistence would ensure that those big heavies would fall in eventually.

Barring the quick knockout, I don't see any of them keeping up the pace of throwing jab after jab, right hand after right hand. They never do. Especially the Klitschkos who pride themselves on knockouts. They'd spend themselves quickly.

What saved the younger Klitschko is the fact that Sam Peter is not very experienced. Compare the two of them and Sam Peter's experience is non-existent. Had Sam Peter the compact right hand to use inside, he'd have had a strong chance of catching Klitschko falling in. I believe that Marciano would have no trouble landing that punch.

[ripcity]

Johnson, Dempsey, Louis and Marciano would all struggle against the top-tier 16-17 stone and over guys of the last ten years or so. That doesn't denigrate their achievements but you've got to be realistic.

To me Liston and Ali are the earliest HW champs who would stand a chance.
I agree.

[Marnoff]

Shouldn’t we take account that Marciano with modern training would be weighting more than 185 lbs? He could be 215-225 lbs easily. And with that weight he would be more competitive against modern giants.

No, Rocky weighed what he did because he wanted to. He trained to unbelievable extents so that his stamina would be the best. Watch his fights and see him throwing bone crushing punches into the final round. A heavier Marciano would not have gone undefeated.

[Marnoff]

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Ya, I don't watch fights either. I just do a tale of the tape and call it a night.

[Marnoff]

1. If either of the Klitsckos land a right hand the fight is probably going to be over. Same thing with Lennox. All it is going to take is one shot. Maybe two.

2. Against a 6'5+ 245 lb+ guy with a crushing jab and Warhead right hand, he is going to get KOed in 10 out of 10 fights. Anyone Marcianos size is getting knocked out.

1. We've seen that Lewis can be knocked out with a big right hand also. Klitschko has had a lot of trouble taking punishment as well.

2. 10 out of 10...? Right....

[Rollo]

Johnson, Dempsey, Louis and Marciano would all struggle against the top-tier 16-17 stone and over guys of the last ten years or so. That doesn't denigrate their achievements but you've got to be realistic.

To me Liston and Ali are the earliest HW champs who would stand a chance.

I wouldn´t count out Louis - he was special.

[China_hand_Joe]

It is embarrassing, simply embarrassing for those who think Marciano would compete.

He'd probably be outclassed and made a mockery of by the likes of Joe Calzaghe and Mikkel Kessler.

[FlatNose]

Ice man, I couldn't agree less. Most boxing cliche's don't apply to Marciano.Like "a good big man always beats a good little man".Rockys style was designed by his expert trainer,Charlie Goldman, to negate his size disavantages.He'd absoloutly kill Holyfield , who was too easy to hit for a damaging puncher like The Rock.The big difference between Marciano and Lennox Lewis was when Lennox went down he stayed down.Marciano would just get up more pissed off .Marciano was a one in a million,the likes of him never to be seen again.

[China_hand_Joe]

The cliches didn't even exist back then. Featherweights used to beat HWs, the whole sport was shocking like that. The Rocks biggest fights came against MWs like Charles, whom were able to hurt him. Marciano would be embarrassed by Wlad or Lewis, or Holyfield.

Marciano is about Clinto Woods level, I bet he'd struggle to beat him even.

[Vantage_West]

Johnson, Dempsey, Louis and Marciano would all struggle against the top-tier 16-17 stone and over guys of the last ten years or so. That doesn't denigrate their achievements but you've got to be realistic.

To me Liston and Ali are the earliest HW champs who would stand a chance.:good :good :good :good exactly 60 pounds is alot how many fighters do you know could handle bigger men that easily.

i think size can help becuase you can gain a bit more of a shoulder hieght to jab and to punch off but when your that small with that short a reach you wont win in the punching becuase they aint going to be willing to trade and they aint going to try and bomb you out so a jabbing match it will be which marciano didnt have.

tyson worked well becuase he was very agile and super quick with power on every shot and was ferociuos...even in that bone crusher didnt fight him just stay on the outside and made tyson look a bit one paced.

small fighter i think can do well in the higherwieghts just you have to be reailtic that the natural wieght difference is just too great.

[SteveO]

In this era, Rocky would get stopped on cuts a lot.




The man bled like a stuck pig.

[klion22]

Do people REALLY believe...that 5 foot 10 and 185 pound Rocky Marciano would knock out guys like Lennox and Foreman??? And... would the Rock knock out the likes of Holyfield if he was a cruiserweight? AND... Wouldn't James Toney and the Rock at 185 pounds be fun to watch?? I do think the Rock was underrated somewhat as a fighter. His will to win was above average as well as his work ethic and dedication were on par with almost anybody in history. He was a true "never say die" boxer but if he was matched up with the bigger, stronger heavyweights or with guys his size like a James Toney that had great defensive and counter punching skills, I think he would ultimately be outclassed or overpowered.

Come on, it's common sense. Of course not. It was a different era. You can't compare the two. The HW during that era were much smaller. You just didn't have guys close to being as big as they are today. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

[ChrisPontius]

At 205lbs Evander Holyfield was the undisputed hamp , he KOed a a guy called Douglas who weighed 246 lbs in 3 rounds no less

Marciano by KO

No one denied that a great smaller guy could beat an average, unmotivated fat big guy. Even at that, Holyfield still had a full 20 pounds of muscle on Marciano.
What happened when a big skilled guy (Bowe) fought a great small guy (Holyfield)? He decisively beat him and came out as the fresher man despite being outlanded 2:1 during the first 4 or 5 rounds.

[MrMagic]

You can put him down, and he'll always come up.
You can outbox him, but he'll always put pressure on you.

Rocky's power is awesome, it's underrated, I've seen him hit bags like I never seen others do, Rocky has dazzling one punch KO power, and yes, he can with ease lay out guys like Lewis or Klitschko.
Rocky was a bad ass motherfucker with bad intentions, you can put him down but he is hard to keep there.

[jsimps]

No way. It was a different era. The game has changed. All sports evolve. Athletes are very much bigger and stronger than they were back then. I believe there are only a couple athletes from their era who could compete at todays level. Jim Brown and Wilt Chamberlain...

[MrMagic]

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Watch from 00:06 - 00:13 - Marciano's suzieQ could put anyone to sleep.

[Ambition_Def]

Tyson was also inbetween 215 and 220 pounds in his prime with a far, far bigger bodyframe, faster hands, better defense and a harder punch than Marciano.

I've already stated that weight has very little to do with power. Tyson was surely a little faster than Marciano, but overall I'd say Marciano's right hand was as good as they come. Very compact, precise and quick.

That right hand would get in on these big clinchers who fall in halfway through the 6th. Of course if they landed a clean right hand before the 6th they'd probably stop Marciano.

But don't underestimate his speed. Marciano was alot smaller than most of these 6'1 240lb heavyweights today. By that extreme he was also a bit swifter and more flexible, allowing him to get a right hand off easier.

Look at Holyfield for example. With that much muscle the man rarely had a short compact right hand. He invested in the hook and uppercut, both semi-wide punches. That Marciano right hand was as straight as an arrow. Think Tyson over Botha. That kind of right hand.

[Butch Coolidge]

Marciano was not nearly as skilled as Tyson. Tyson was nearly impossible to hit at his peak. Marciano had chunks of his face knocked off by light heavyweights. I do not think Marciano would be on his feet very long against the big heavyweight punchers of today. There have been a lot of fighters since Marciano, some of whom weren't even champions or heavyweights, that could have beaten him. I think somebody like Juan Carlos Gomez, Jerry Quarry, Chris Byrd would have handled the Rock

[Ambition_Def]

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Watch from 00:06 - 00:13 - Marciano's suzieQ could put anyone to sleep.

Great video. That is a pretty good testament to how good Marciano's left hook was too.

[Ambition_Def]

Marciano was not nearly as skilled as Tyson. Tyson was nearly impossible to hit at his peak. Marciano had chunks of his face knocked off by light heavyweights. I do not think Marciano would be on his feet very long against the big heavyweight punchers of today. There have been a lot of fighters since Marciano, some of whom weren't even champions or heavyweights, that could have beaten him. I think somebody like Juan Carlos Gomez, Jerry Quarry, Chris Byrd would have handled the Rock

Those smaller heavies are also alot faster than these big robots. Lewis was not fast, nor is Waldo or Vitali. They look fast but compare how fast Byrd was to either Klitschko. His bane of course was trying to box them from a distance. Getting inside on Lewis and either Klitschko is not hard, trying to box them from a distance is.

I think punch resistance definately helps as you get bigger and weigh more. But that would be a difference of like Sam Peter to Nicoli Valuev. I think Marciano's persistence, with that compact right hand and endless stamina would kill a guy like Waldo. He'd be done after 4-5 rounds.

[McGrain]

Well Marciano certainly hit hard enough to KO Lennox Lewis. That fight would be far to hard for him though. But not because Lennox is bigger - well, not just that - but because Lennox is much much better in terms of the size/skill/physical combination.

Size is only one adavantage.

I would expect Marciano to KO Harison in around 1 round, for example. Somewhere on the way up the scale in terms of quality, Rocky gets beaten - but it might be up around the Lewis class. Rocky might be good enough to beat most big men.

[ChrisPontius]

I've already stated that weight has very little to do with power.

Then why has there only been one heavyweight champion (and a poor one, at that) in the last 30 years that was sub-200lb?

Why if you make a list of the 15 hardest punchers of all time are most of those over 200lb?

There have always been big oafs, but guys like Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko brothers are genuinly talented big men. And they're fast, too. Wlad's handspeed is the best in the division by FAR and he's 6'6 245lb. Ronnie Shields who trained Tyson said his hands were as fast as Tyson's. I would say Tyson's are a bit faster, but the point is obvious: he has a lot of speed. They're also very adept at keeping that distance by moving.

You say it's hard to box them from a distance but it's easy to get inside. Based on what? Sam Peter tried to get inside Wlad and could hardly do so nor managed to pin him on the ropes on a single occasion during all 12 rounds. Yes, Peter was somewhat inexperienced, but he's a big strong guy who bulls his way in and is hard to stop. So i don't see how it is easy to get inside. Byrd and Brock tried to get inside and they both said the same: It looks easy when training in the gym and watching the film, but in the ring it became apparant that it's very hard, especially when he graps you and leans on you. How much resistance can a 5'10 185lb guy give to a 6'6 245lb guy who's using his reach and range from the outside and is grapped on the inside where he likes to work? I agree that Marciano could knock Wlad out if he lands the right punch, but i think it will at the very least be very hard to land that punch. Not to mention most of Marciano's KO's came against 190lb fighters, not skilled big guys (Excepting Joe Louis, who was far past his best anyway).

[Ambition_Def]

Then why has there only been one heavyweight champion (and a poor one, at that) in the last 30 years that was sub-200lb?

Why if you make a list of the 15 hardest punchers of all time are most of those over 200lb?

There have always been big oafs, but guys like Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko brothers are genuinly talented big men. And they're fast, too. Wlad's handspeed is the best in the division by FAR and he's 6'6 245lb. Ronnie Shields who trained Tyson said his hands were as fast as Tyson's. I would say Tyson's are a bit faster, but the point is obvious: he has a lot of speed. They're also very adept at keeping that distance by moving.

You say it's hard to box them from a distance but it's easy to get inside. Based on what? Sam Peter tried to get inside Wlad and could hardly do so nor managed to pin him on the ropes on a single occasion during all 12 rounds. Yes, Peter was somewhat inexperienced, but he's a big strong guy who bulls his way in and is hard to stop. So i don't see how it is easy to get inside. Byrd and Brock tried to get inside and they both said the same: It looks easy when training in the gym and watching the film, but in the ring it became apparant that it's very hard, especially when he graps you and leans on you. How much resistance can a 5'10 185lb guy give to a 6'6 245lb guy who's using his reach and range from the outside and is grapped on the inside where he likes to work? I agree that Marciano could knock Wlad out if he lands the right punch, but i think it will at the very least be very hard to land that punch. Not to mention most of Marciano's KO's came against 190lb fighters, not skilled big guys (Excepting Joe Louis, who was far past his best anyway).

Did you miss my example of Sam Peter?

Anyhow if you did, here is the basic breakdown.

Sam Peter is a strong guy no doubt. But what he isn't is experienced. He is learning on the job. He does not possess that compact right hand that guys like Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson, Louis, Foreman and other major punchers possessed.

Rocky had a short right hand that would close the gap very quickly on a large man trying to grab inside. Infact if you watch any of Marciano's fights, one thing is very clear: He can knock you out with less than a foot between you and him. He had that kind of power generation. Sam Peter does not possess that punch, and probably never will. The clinch, as cheat as it is, does not have a weakness to burly heavyweights who lack a short straight right hand. Sam is a wide puncher, the likes of which Evander Holyfield and later Tyson presented. These guys came from hooks and uppercuts. Wide punches that have trouble landing against a big clincher.

Do you know why John Ruiz didn't clinch James Toney? I'll tell you why. Toney is just small enough, and smart enough inside to know how to throw compact right hands and left hooks. The clinch wouldn't work. As little as Toney is, he'd get off on Ruiz inside before Ruiz could close the gap. This because of his smaller arms and base of gravity. Whereas a guy like Sam Peter just cannot do that. He's too wide and too burly to get those punches off properly. Let alone not experienced enough.

Also where Brock and Byrd went wrong on Waldo is a matter of style. Brock would get close but then step back out. Whether habitually or not, that is the wrong thing to do. While you don't want him to grab you, the way you have to stop that is to throw compact right hands inside. Brock of course is another guy who depends heavily on wide punches. Byrd for his part simply lacks the punching power. Plus he doesn't sit down on his punches to stay mobile.

Marciano is just that much smaller, and that much more compact. He didn't beat Joe Louis by being some average 180lber. He had the right mixture of speed, chin, stamina and power to do so. You can't tell me after 6 rounds of throwing punches that Waldo wouldn't be tired looking to grab. It's the only thing Steward trains him to do. And if Rocky was still around Waldo's goose would be cooked. As soon as he tries to lean in on a guy that small and compact he's gonna be eating a right hand. Maybe several at that.

[sliv]

He is too small but had huge power and against a guy like vlad who has a questionable chin, you never know what could happen. One of Marciano's punches could end the fight instantly but could Rocky land that big punch? It would be difficult against a skilled boxer like Vlad, although no doubt he would have a punchers chance. I mean what do you all think would happen if one of Marciano's huge punches connected with Klitchko's questionable chin............exactly. I would think Vlad could dominate this fight making Marciano look bad on the way to victory or Vlad could be cruising along making Marciano look bad and fall to the ground down for the count from a Rocky Marciano right hand.

[Decker]

Good debate here, without folks acting like jack asses too :D That pix by Redodd truely shows the size disparity. And Vitali has much more talent than Valuev.

Then why has there only been one heavyweight champion (and a poor one, at that) in the last 30 years that was sub-200lb?

Why if you make a list of the 15 hardest punchers of all time are most of those over 200lb?Haven't you heard, punching power diminishes greatly after 190lb :roll: Some are confusing diminishing increases in punching power per increase in weight (debateable) with the notion that a skilled 190lb big puncher is almost "equal" to a skilled 240+lb big puncher. This is wishful thinking.

There have always been big oafs, but guys like Riddick Bowe, Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko brothers are genuinly talented big men. And they're fast, too. Wlad's handspeed is the best in the division by FAR and he's 6'6 245lb. Ronnie Shields who trained Tyson said his hands were as fast as Tyson's. I would say Tyson's are a bit faster, but the point is obvious: he has a lot of speed. They're also very adept at keeping that distance by moving.You didn't get the haters memo? Fighters like LL, K bros are slow and robotic with glass jaws :-( The big oafs that Dempsey, Louis, or Rocky beat would be destroyed easily by the LL/K bros type HW. The latter, as you state, are genuinly talented big men. Wlad's biggest ***** in his armor (like LL) is a mediocre chin - "glass" is just a haters exaggeration.

You say it's hard to box them from a distance but it's easy to get inside. Based on what? Wishful thinking. Sam Peter tried to get inside Wlad and could hardly do so nor managed to pin him on the ropes on a single occasion during all 12 rounds. Yes, Peter was somewhat inexperienced, but he's a big strong guy who bulls his way in and is hard to stop. So i don't see how it is easy to get inside. Byrd and Brock tried to get inside and they both said the same: It looks easy when training in the gym and watching the film, but in the ring it became apparant that it's very hard, especially when he graps you and leans on you. How much resistance can a 5'10 185lb guy give to a 6'6 245lb guy who's using his reach and range from the outside and is grapped on the inside where he likes to work? I agree that Marciano could knock Wlad out if he lands the right punch, but i think it will at the very least be very hard to land that punch. Very hard, and by the time LL or Wlad "tire" Rocky may have been stopped himself. Not to mention most of Marciano's KO's came against 190lb fighters, not skilled big guys (Excepting Joe Louis, who was far past his best anyway).Marciano was a special fighter, I'm not knocking him or guys like Tyson one bit. Yes AD, Rocky had a great short compact right. He was also usually fighting either low talented oafs, small HWs past their prime, or talented LHW/CWs by todays standards. Rocky never faught the likes of a LL or K bro HW - nothing even comparable. A prime (that very short one) Tyson would have good chances vs LL/K bros, but it wouldn't be a wipe out like some believe. The "great" Buster showed us that many years ago :yep

[Ambition_Def]

Funny Deckers. Nobody said that power diminishes over 190lbs. What I stated is that power around 190lbs is sufficient to knock out most heavyweights, maybe barring a freak like Valuev.

After that any more power is quite unnecessary.

[Butch Coolidge]

Those smaller heavies are also alot faster than these big robots. Lewis was not fast, nor is Waldo or Vitali. They look fast but compare how fast Byrd was to either Klitschko.


I thought that Wladimir was much faster than Byrd from watching their two fights together and watching Sanders dismantle a fast former light heavyweight champ Bobby Czyz also makes me think that the robots are not nearly as slow as some think they are. At any rate, I feel today's heavyweights are extremely underrated while Marciano is extremely overrated.

[cuchulain]

Tyson was also inbetween 215 and 220 pounds in his prime with a far, far bigger bodyframe, faster hands, better defense and a harder punch than Marciano.


He almost certainly didn't have a harder punch.

[cuchulain]

The cliches didn't even exist back then. Featherweights used to beat HWs, the whole sport was shocking like that. The Rocks biggest fights came against MWs like Charles, whom were able to hurt him. Marciano would be embarrassed by Wlad or Lewis, or Holyfield.

Marciano is about Clinto Woods level, I bet he'd struggle to beat him even.


It's unseemly for someone of your stature to be seen trolling.

[ChrisPontius]

Anyone who has been in the ring (and i'm just talking sparring) knows that there is a big difference between a 185lb's punch and a 240lb's punch.

The power difference is not even the biggest problem though. The problem is that you have to spend a tremendous amount of energy getting out of the way, it's much harder to get in the right range and you constantly have to keep moving because a counter will take your head off. Against a 185lb'er, this is much less so.

Back in the 50's, people grew a lot smaller naturally and therefore there were very few people around the 220+lb weight, leaving too little talent there to beat their smaller counterparts. When people started growing bigger from the 70's on, the 190lb'ers have rarely been constistently beating big heavyweights. That's not a coincidence. In those days, there was only a 10-20lb gap between lightheavyweight and heavyweight, and that's why lightheavyweights often were competitive with heavyweights. In fact, 2 out of 3 of Marciano's key opponents were light heavyweights.
After the weight gap grew, there have been only a few lightheavyweights with some limited succes. Spinks caught an underconditioned, aging Holmes but in my and most opinions lost the rematch when Holmes was even older but focused. And needless to say how he fared against a great heavyweight in his prime (91 seconds). Can you imagine 2 out of 3 of Lewis' key opponents being Roy Jones and James Toney?

I rate Marciano #4 of all time based on accomplishments, but i find it hard to imagine him fighting a skilled huge fucker like Lennox Lewis.

[Decker]

Funny Deckers. Nobody said that power diminishes over 190lbs. What I stated is that power around 190lbs is sufficient to knock out most heavyweights, maybe barring a freak like Valuev.

After that any more power is quite unnecessary.:huh Well, I don't think I was referring directly to you until the end of my reply. But since you've been making many comments regarding under 200lb fighters punches vs the SHWs I can see the confusion. Sure, if a skilled, natural puncher ~190lbs gets in a great punch he can have a LL or Wlad in trouble. Hell if you let me tee off on a HW with an average to weak jaw I maight have them in trouble :yep Then they'd right themselves and knock me into next week :shock: The problems, as many other posters have been pointing out, are many. If the jabs, straight rights, and other punches by the LL/K bro HWs can trouble 220lb, 230lb, and bigger HWs, what will they do to a Rocky or many other of the smaller HWs of yesteryear? The extra power the current HWs have may be unnecessary to you, but it will cause severe problems for the small HW fighting in the ring - even a great one.

That's all I'm trying to say. If we disagree, we disagree. This is hobby to me - I'm not making a living here :D

[Ambition_Def]

:huh Well, I don't think I was referring directly to you until the end of my reply. But since you've been making many comments regarding under 200lb fighters punches vs the SHWs I can see the confusion. Sure, if a skilled, natural puncher ~190lbs gets in a great punch he can have a LL or Wlad in trouble. Hell if you let me tee off on a HW with an average to weak jaw I maight have them in trouble :yep Then they'd right themselves and knock me into next week :shock: The problems, as many other posters have been pointing out, are many. If the jabs, straight rights, and other punches by the LL/K bro HWs can trouble 220lb, 230lb, and bigger HWs, what will they do to a Rocky or many other of the smaller HWs of yesteryear? The extra power the current HWs have may be unnecessary to you, but it will cause severe problems for the small HW fighting in the ring - even a great one.

That's all I'm trying to say. If we disagree, we disagree. This is hobby to me - I'm not making a living here :D

What you aren't seeing is how a smaller guy can get in and land on a guy trying to close the gap by clinching. Marciano would not stay outside on Waldo. He was old school enough to know that a big man can be worked inside when you have the shorter arms. A guy that small, with a smaller wingspan, can get leverage very quickly.

Force is lost as it is traveling upwards and that is where Marciano would suffer his greatest trouble. But knowing Clinchko, he'd lean right in after a few rounds and taste one of those short right hands. Rocky was the most persistent heavyweight champion ever. He wouldn't quit. Even with a split nose. I could see Waldo scoring a knockdown, maybe 2. But If Waldo couldn't spark him out early then he'd be in some difficulty by the mid rounds.

[ripcity]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Watch from 00:06 - 00:13 - Marciano's suzieQ could put anyone to sleep.
Exlent video. However it would not mater how hard Marciano could hit if he were to face Lenox Lewis or Wald Klithiko he would not have the chance to land.

[China_hand_Joe]

It's unseemly for someone of your stature to be seen trolling.

I genuinely believe Clinton Woods would have given Marciano one of his 5 toughest fights.

[Jack]

He fought Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore 5 times, so which of those do you think Woods is better than?

I'm a big Woods fan, but he is miles behind those three. Absolutely nowhere near their class.

[ripcity]

Reach and the abiility to use it is the bigest advantage in boxing. Being able to hit frm a rang at which your opoent no matter how fast or how hard they hit trumps both of those advantages. Not all tall rangy boxers know how to take advantage of their size, but those who do like Lenox Lewis and Wald Klitchiko for example would pick Marciano apart with their jab.
Before you try to tell me that Marciano would only need to land one punch and good nite and point out that Lewis and Klitchiko had been ko'd by boxers no where near the level of Marciano. Allow me to point to you that the boxers who ko'd Lewis and Wald while your right they were not on Marciano's talent level. However they were all good punchers and all were biger than Marciano. Mass plays a large part in derterming punching power. Marciano's big wins came against opoents who were close to his own size. It is highly dobutful he could preduce enough power with one punch to score a ko.

[China_hand_Joe]

Walcott for sure and he is at least on par with an old Moore.
He fought Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore 5 times, so which of those do you think Woods is better than?

I'm a big Woods fan, but he is miles behind those three. Absolutely nowhere near their class.

[cuchulain]

I genuinely believe Clinton Woods would have given Marciano one of his 5 toughest fights.

What time do the pubs open there?

Have you been into the sauce?

IMO, Of the modern era fighters, Marciano loses to Ali, Louis, Lewis, Foreman and (maybe) Holmes. I might add Wlad to that list,depending on how he develops.

Other than that, I would favour Marciano over any other heavywt.

Woods would be brutally annhialated.

He would be into a new level of pain, even from shots he blocked.

[Ambition_Def]

China_Hand_Joe is just trolling. I never understood why people take him seriously.

[China_hand_Joe]

What time do the pubs open there?

Have you been into the sauce?

IMO, Of the modern era fighters, Marciano loses to Ali, Louis, Lewis, Foreman and (maybe) Holmes. I might add Wlad to that list,depending on how he develops.

Other than that, I would favour Marciano over any other heavywt.

Woods would be brutally annhialated.

He would be into a new level of pain, even from shots he blocked.

Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Akinwande.

He might beat Tua and Ruiz however.

[China_hand_Joe]

My point exactly, If he was around today hed bulk up to 210+.

That wouldn't work for him. He worked because of his workrate, 210 would take some of his game away. he'd just have to be a cruiser.

[MSTR]

Come on, it's common sense. Of course not. It was a different era. You can't compare the two. The HW during that era were much smaller. You just didn't have guys close to being as big as they are today. It's like comparing apples and oranges.
Any sensible person would believe it to be common sense, however clearly to some it is not. Rocky Marciano would surely arrive in the ring wearing a red cape, and would proceed to obliterate opponent after opponent regardless of size or ability. He would drink gasoline in between rounds, and give his opponents 10 free shots before humiliating them. He could beat every ATG heavy of the modern era with ease, as he simply defies reality. My Hero.

[C Money]

Marciano's punch at his weight was INCREDIBLE.

True Legend and GOOD MAN.


Was he best AT?? :nono but he was one hell of a great HW

49-0 43 KO's aint too damn shabby:hey

[Ambition_Def]

Marciano had a great right hand yeah, but the size of the gloves needs to be taken into consideration here. That plays a major role. I'd bet if Marciano used the same gloves Tyson used, his KO ratio would drop tremendously.

You know that is something that I hadn't thought of. Nevertheless I think Marciano still catches these big heavyweights with flush right hands. The glove being bigger might play a role but them dogging it and looking to grab by the 6th is still going to happen. So maybe more than 1 clean right hand. Same result though!

[China_hand_Joe]

Marciano's power. Well he has some but it isn't going to walk around one hitting everyone. Most the time he required accumulation. He'd be killed by the shakey chinned Wlad and average chinned Lewis as it is ridiculously unlikely he would KO either of them.

[maracho]

Do people REALLY believe...that 5 foot 10 and 185 pound Rocky Marciano would knock out guys like Lennox and Foreman??? And... would the Rock knock out the likes of Holyfield if he was a cruiserweight? AND... Wouldn't James Toney and the Rock at 185 pounds be fun to watch?? I do think the Rock was underrated somewhat as a fighter. His will to win was above average as well as his work ethic and dedication were on par with almost anybody in history. He was a true "never say die" boxer but if he was matched up with the bigger, stronger heavyweights or with guys his size like a James Toney that had great defensive and counter punching skills, I think he would ultimately be outclassed or overpowered.

Little bitty Joe Gans was just verily outpointed in a war with Sam Langford (who terrorized Jack Johnson) and Ganns hardly had any sleep because he had to take a train cross country.

We have seen what Toney can do against the big boys and we have seen what the harder hitting, harder working Marciano did against guys who were mostly over 6'

[Butch Coolidge]

Little bitty Joe Gans was just verily outpointed in a war with Sam Langford (who terrorized Jack Johnson) and Ganns hardly had any sleep because he had to take a train cross country.

We have seen what Toney can do against the big boys and we have seen what the harder hitting, harder working Marciano did against guys who were mostly over 6'

I noticed that Toney wouldn't get into the ring with Wladimir and most likely never will, smart man that James Toney is.

[maracho]

I noticed that Toney wouldn't get into the ring with Wladimir and most likely never will, smart man that James Toney is.

I would like to see your source because I was under the impression that Toney was after Klitchko until the judges robbed him in the 1st Peter fight

[China_hand_Joe]

Toney was a rubbish HW. It is laughable the odds were even for Toney - Peter II.

[cuchulain]

Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Akinwande.

He might beat Tua and Ruiz however.

Tyson did not do always do well if he didn't get his way early. Marciano, IMO, was stronger, with a better chin and hit harder. Plus he had more will to win.

Holy would be a tougher fight, but again, he would be backing up and would have difficulty with Rocky's power. Prime Holyfield might go 15.

Bowe didn't have the mental toughness either, nor Marciano's pressure.

Akinwande, I haven't watched.

[GazOC]

Akinwande, I haven't watched.

You havn't missed much mate...:D

[cuchulain]

Toney was a rubbish HW. It is laughable the odds were even for Toney - Peter II.

I notice you're judgment is returning again.

But prime Toney would have little trouble with any version of Woods.

Do you see where I'm going, here?

[maracho]

Toney was a rubbish HW. It is laughable the odds were even for Toney - Peter II.

Just rubbish enough to beat the beast that knocked Klitchko down three times