Why was the recent Silva fight any worse than GSP vs Hardy UFC111?

[james4210]

GSP vs Hardy was a total snooze-fest. The greatest moments of excitement was Hardy surviving a couple of poorly applied arm locks. it was basically Hardy dumped on his ass within 10 seconds. GSP on top totally controlling but doing no damage and unable to finish.

Okay I've heard all the arguments, I don't wish to rehash things. I've read what everyone said about Silva. and I agree about the faults of the fight. It seems to me that he has been singled out for criticism, it is understandable due to the way he fought. As well as the clowning people were saying that he ran and were angry that he didn't engaged toe to toe.

But I would suggest GSP is far more guilty of that. by just taking things to the ground as soon as possible. I've seen many other fighters do this as well. To take the fight to the ground because it's much safer and there is much less chance of being caught by a winging punch out of the blue.

I think it's time to reassess the silva performance. if you have a recorded try watching GSP vs Hardy again if you can bear to. and then if you have it, watch the Silva Vs Maia fight. Skip the first two rounds and you end up watching a fight which is much better than you remember. there is some real skill on display, and hard punches going in.

I think there are two types of fans, the first kind just want to see blood and carnage, Two dum smose battering the hell out of each other with no thought for defence.

And the second kind, who also enjoy the above but also have an interest in martial arts and fighting and appreciates the element of fighting called "no get hit", which Silva displayed, neutralising or his opponents attacks.

[BoxingFanNo1]

Because there's skill involved in in keeping a man down and dominating on the ground. There's no skill in running away from your opponent and doing practically sod all for 2 1/2 rounds.

[Boyd]

GSP vs Hardy was a total snooze-fest. The greatest moments of excitement was Hardy surviving a couple of poorly applied arm locks. it was basically Hardy dumped on his ass within 10 seconds. GSP on top totally controlling but doing no damage and unable to finish.

Okay I've heard all the arguments, I don't wish to rehash things. I've read what everyone said about Silva. and I agree about the faults of the fight. It seems to me that he has been singled out for criticism, it is understandable due to the way he fought. As well as the clowning people were saying that he ran and were angry that he didn't engaged toe to toe.

But I would suggest GSP is far more guilty of that. by just taking things to the ground as soon as possible. I've seen many other fighters do this as well. To take the fight to the ground because it's much safer and there is much less chance of being caught by a winging punch out of the blue.

I think it's time to reassess the silva performance. if you have a recorded try watching GSP vs Hardy again if you can bear to. and then if you have it, watch the Silva Vs Maia fight. Skip the first two rounds and you end up watching a fight which is much better than you remember. there is some real skill on display, and hard punches going in.

I think there are two types of fans, the first kind just want to see blood and carnage, Two dum smose battering the hell out of each other with no thought for defence.

And the second kind, who also enjoy the above but also have an interest in martial arts and fighting and appreciates the element of fighting called "no get hit", which Silva displayed, neutralising or his opponents attacks.if you can't see the difference man then there's no point in anyone explaining it.

[Grievesy]

Uhh that should be easy to see really.........

[fatcity]

Good grief!Are you seriously attempting to compare the two?

[Mazallan]

Ha what a retard.

[fightfan311]

GSP vs Hardy was a total snooze-fest. The greatest moments of excitement was Hardy surviving a couple of poorly applied arm locks. it was basically Hardy dumped on his ass within 10 seconds. GSP on top totally controlling but doing no damage and unable to finish.

Okay I've heard all the arguments, I don't wish to rehash things. I've read what everyone said about Silva. and I agree about the faults of the fight. It seems to me that he has been singled out for criticism, it is understandable due to the way he fought. As well as the clowning people were saying that he ran and were angry that he didn't engaged toe to toe.

But I would suggest GSP is far more guilty of that. by just taking things to the ground as soon as possible. I've seen many other fighters do this as well. To take the fight to the ground because it's much safer and there is much less chance of being caught by a winging punch out of the blue.

I think it's time to reassess the silva performance. if you have a recorded try watching GSP vs Hardy again if you can bear to. and then if you have it, watch the Silva Vs Maia fight. Skip the first two rounds and you end up watching a fight which is much better than you remember. there is some real skill on display, and hard punches going in.

I think there are two types of fans, the first kind just want to see blood and carnage, Two dum smose battering the hell out of each other with no thought for defence.

And the second kind, who also enjoy the above but also have an interest in martial arts and fighting and appreciates the element of fighting called "no get hit", which Silva displayed, neutralising or his opponents attacks.

just stop watching fighting sports if you can't see the difference!!!

[codeman99998]

GSP was trying to finish the fight, obviously. GSP was fighting Dan Hardy the entire fight, obviously.

[james4210]

Ha what a retard.

The general lack of respect has angered me.

Well I'm going to fire back.

I'm going to suggest that you never even saw the Silva Vs Maia fight.

During the fight, Silva went into a very strange fighting stance several times. It was very distinctive. Can you describe what he did?

Any offers? no didn't think so.

[tri-pod]

The general lack of respect has angered me.

Well I'm going to fire back.


How about the general lack of respect Silva showed the fans? Not once, not twice, but three times.

If you can't see the difference between dominating someone on the ground and running away from your opponent when you could massacre him standing up then you are pretty deluded. :-(

[tri-pod]

The general lack of respect has angered me.

Well I'm going to fire back.

I'm going to suggest that you never even saw the Silva Vs Maia fight.

During the fight, Silva went into a very strange fighting stance several times. It was very distinctive. Can you describe what he did?

Any offers? no didn't think so.


That would be called the sprinting stance.

Picture example of a sprinting stance:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[achillesthegreat]

There really is no comparison. GSP works for every second of every round. The fight was a ground fight so he was doing what you do and going for subs. I would have like more brutality on the ground but he was working. Silva ran which would be the equivilent of GSP holding Hardy in full guard/gable grip for 2 mins. If that was the case, they would have got stood up. I think it would have been good if Silvas running around for 2 mins got him put on his back or in guard depending what Maia wanted.

Just to clarify I think standing fighters up is often stupid and I would think a fighter being put on the ground is stupid.

If Silva ran, it is Maia's job to catch him.

[Grievesy]

That would be called the sprinting stance.

Picture example of a sprinting stance:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:rofl:rofl

[fightfan311]

The general lack of respect has angered me.

Well I'm going to fire back.

I'm going to suggest that you never even saw the Silva Vs Maia fight.

During the fight, Silva went into a very strange fighting stance several times. It was very distinctive. Can you describe what he did?

Any offers? no didn't think so.


is this a joke? when was the last time you saw a ref tell a guy to stop running in an mma fight?

[james4210]

That would be called the sprinting stance.

Picture example of a sprinting stance:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Good call, and here is the actual pic, he did this about five times in a row.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
([Only registered and activated users can see links])come on this alone is worth the price of admission.


And look at Maia's face after the fight, it wasn't the referee that did that. I mean if Silva did this whilst fleeing in a cowardly fashion I'd love to see what he is like on a good day.

[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[tri-pod]

And look at Maia's face after the fight, it wasn't the referee that did that. I mean if Silva did this whilst fleeing in a cowardly fashion I'd love to see what he is like on a good day.



If you want to know what he looks like on a good day go watch Silva/Griffin.

[Popkins]

I think there are two types of fans, the first kind just want to see blood and carnage, Two dum smose battering the hell out of each other with no thought for defence.

And the second kind, who also enjoy the above but also have an interest in martial arts and fighting and appreciates the element of fighting called "no get hit", which Silva displayed, neutralising or his opponents attacks.

Hitting but "not getting hit" is a boxing term, and it seems you are another MMA fan who does not understand what it actually means. The post below was made by me last week in response to another deluded Silva apologist, but it will suffice here just as well:

This is the most obscene pile of dogshit I've ever read. The boos would have been every bit as loud for those final, shameful 2 rounds if that fight had been in a boxing ring. I don't know if you've actually watched the fight, but in the final 2 (or even 3) rounds it was not "hit and don't get hit", it was "don't even try to hit, take the piss out of people who have paid money to see this, and don't get hit". I'm genuinely shocked and angry that this thread has been made. There is no excuse whatsoever for how Silva behaved and it would be the exact same if this bullshit was committed in a boxing ring. (see Floyd Mayweather vs Jose Luis Castillo II, the crowd booed Floyd for running in that fight, and he was more active than Silva was on Saturday)

A good way to illustrate this point for those of you who don't follow the sweet science much is to watch Pernell Whitaker vs Julio Cesar Chavez. Then watch Anderson Silva vs Demian Maia. You see, 'hit but don't get hit' does NOT mean refusing to engage in combat or trying to minimize the amount of contact going on. You can hit but not get hit while still being active, and even sporadically aggressive. You can fight on the backfoot, but still throw combinations. It's all about fighting intelligently, not purely being negative or over-cautious or doing the absolute minimum needed to scrape by on a points decision. Pernell Whitaker fights on the backfoot vs Chavez, and he fights with a defensive mindset, but because he wants to prove he is the superior fighter he is still actively trying to win the fight positively by utilizing his own strengths and not merely trying to avoid/evade Chavez and flick out punches to edge the rounds on the cards. He retreats, but he still throws his best punches, still throws them accurately trying to land cleanly, still uses combinations, all done while maintaining an emphasis on defence and safety.

No-one is saying Silva had to come out swinging like Arturo Gatti, no-one is saying he had to rush into battle like the Wanderlei Silva of old. But there is a way to fight intelligently, fight safely, and fight to his own strengths, without refusing to engage, and without running down the clock. Silva is being paid to fight and he should have the professional pride in his work to want to perform to the best of his ability when he is in the octagon. No-one is slating him for not jumping into the best BJJ practitioner in the game with flying knees and takedown attempts, but he could easily have utilized his superb striking game to convincingly and emphatically win every round. Instead of doing absolutely nothing in the final two rounds, he could've boxed actively, using a fast jab, maybe snapping out the odd lightning fast kick.

There really is no excuse whatsoever for running the clock down and refusing to lift a finger, there really really isn't.

[fightfan311]

Hitting but "not getting hit" is a boxing term, and it seems you are another MMA fan who does not understand what it actually means. The post below was made by me last week in response to another deluded Silva apologist, but it will suffice here just as well:

the op is obviously a little slow and just does not get it. he really should stick to watching tennis or something like that.

[Popkins]

the op is obviously a little slow and just does not get it. he really should stick to watching tennis or something like that.

True. Most MMA fans I know hold the same principles about fighting and 'not getting hit' as boxing fans do. Running the clock down and trying to minimize contact is just as pathetic in MMA as it is in boxing. Though not quite as pathetic as this thread.

[Vitor Belfort]

Are you serious? GSP tried to finish the fight. He had hardy on an armbar and a kimura but hardy is one tough mofo. Silva did nothing but dance around and act stupid.

[jrow]

gsp came to compete and siva came to compete for 3 minutes and then practice his new dance moves

[Primenal]

Silva was just being disrespectful is all. Of course he outclassed his opponent, but he could have done more, and finished the fight at any time instead of clowning around.
GSP/ Hardy did all they could to eachother to win.

So, that's the difference. Silva wasn't fighting nobody in his league, but only put up 50% of his performance. GSP/ Hardy put up all the performance they had. I do think a lot of MMA fights are boring, but I can even see the difference.

[No Fear]

One should not lay blame at the feet of Silva for the fight not being 25 minutes of non-stop action.

What did Maia do with his chance of a lifetime? He made a few half-assed attempts at taking Silva down and then swung a few aimless punches. He was happy to survive.

I would rather watch 25 minutes of Silva showboating than 25 minutes of Grease Saint Pierre dry humping another man.

[196osh]

:patsch

I would rather watch 25 minutes of Silva showboating than 25 minutes of Grease Saint Pierre dry humping another man.

Are you being obtuse?

Silva for the last 10 mins, ran and hardly did anything at all. Maia was even calling him on to fight.

GSP was trying to win the fight

[No Fear]

:patsch

Are you being obtuse?

Silva for the last 10 mins, ran and hardly did anything at all. Maia was even calling him on to fight.

GSP was trying to win the fight

I appreciate work on the ground but find greasaint pierre's ultimate floor cuddling incredibly soporific; 'trying to win the fight' or not, it is stupifying to watch for 25 minutes straight. It does not appear as though there is a welterweight out there who has either the TDD or the ground game required to keep GSP honest and keep the fight on its feet. So what you get is the sort of fight which blokes like Arum and Hopkins will cite when they say MMA is gay.

In any event, one could not have envisaged that Silva practically refusing to engage for the final two (and a bit) rounds and throughout rounds 4 and 5, I was waiting and anticipating as Silva was circling Maia for the moment Maia would become so frustrated that he lose concentration for just enough time for Silva to mount an offensive that would have ended the fight. That's what kept me interested at the time - there is nothing about GSP taking the fight to the ground and rubbing himself on another man for the points victory that keeps me interested enough to want to watch him fight. I did not bother watching rounds 3, 4 or 5 of his fight againgt Hardy. In hindsight, I would not rewatch the final 10 to 12 minutes of the fight because I know that Silva was actually skirmishing rather than preparing to engage.

Alright?

[BoxingFanNo1]

Silva was just being disrespectful is all. Of course he outclassed his opponent, but he could have done more, and finished the fight at any time instead of clowning around.

So Silva deliberately put his UFC career in jeopardy did he?

[Club Fighter]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[james4210]

Hitting but "not getting hit" is a boxing term, and it seems you are another MMA fan who does not understand what it actually means. The post below was made by me last week in response to another deluded Silva apologist, but it will suffice here just as well:

The Karate Kid ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (1984 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Daniel ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Where am I, this ring over here?
Miyagi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Hai. Number three.
Daniel ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): What's that guy kneeling like that for?
Miyagi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Don't know.
Daniel ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Don't you know anything you can tell me?
Miyagi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Hai. No get hit.


Not too quick on the old uptake there are you.


You have been suckered big-time by Maia. he was the most frightened rabbit fighter that I think I've ever seen. He is the challenger, does absolutely bugger all, yes absolutely sweet FA the entire flight. Had his face smashed in.


And Maia pulled some real odious, cynical bullshit to get himself off the hook for being total chicken shit himself.

[james4210]

I appreciate work on the ground but find greasaint pierre's ultimate floor cuddling incredibly soporific; 'trying to win the fight' or not, it is stupifying to watch for 25 minutes straight. It does not appear as though there is a welterweight out there who has either the TDD or the ground game required to keep GSP honest and keep the fight on its feet. So what you get is the sort of fight which blokes like Arum and Hopkins will cite when they say MMA is gay.

In any event, one could not have envisaged that Silva practically refusing to engage for the final two (and a bit) rounds and throughout rounds 4 and 5, I was waiting and anticipating as Silva was circling Maia for the moment Maia would become so frustrated that he lose concentration for just enough time for Silva to mount an offensive that would have ended the fight. That's what kept me interested at the time - there is nothing about GSP taking the fight to the ground and rubbing himself on another man for the points victory that keeps me interested enough to want to watch him fight. I did not bother watching rounds 3, 4 or 5 of his fight againgt Hardy. In hindsight, I would not rewatch the final 10 to 12 minutes of the fight because I know that Silva was actually skirmishing rather than preparing to engage.

Alright?

I agree with the points you make here. that's why GSP and Penn fights were so good. But GSP and Hardy Forget about ground and pound, it was more like ground and sound-asleep.

It's like the Emperor's new Clothes situation, many people are unwilling to admit MMA has got a serious problem. and that problem is demonstrated absolutely in the GSP Hardy fight. that problem is the extremely dull ground humping stuff.

It's assumed that it's a boxing fan attacking MMA. no I am a huge MMA fan pointing out what is pretty obvious.

Second point regarding Silva's performance

Many fans seem to think it's somehow an unavoidable force of nature when a fight goes to the ground. No this is not the case, a fighter chooses to take it to the ground and fight that way. But somehow you are immune from blame of playing safe if you just clamp yourself on top of the other fighter for 25 minutes.

I made a previous post, about the UFC being too brutal. the point of that post that was totally missed, it was that the sport is so dangerous that the fighters are naturally drawn towards looking for loopholes or strategies whereby they can save themselves from damage.

I.e. a no holds barred fight leads to an unspoken agreement between fighters to safely grapple. Or fighters doing loads of hit and move skirmishing to avoid risking a broken eye socket.

And we then criticised them from our armchair, that they don't give us the bloodbath we paid for.

[Popkins]

The Karate Kid ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (1984 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]))

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Daniel ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Where am I, this ring over here?
Miyagi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Hai. Number three.
Daniel ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): What's that guy kneeling like that for?
Miyagi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Don't know.
Daniel ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Don't you know anything you can tell me?
Miyagi ([Only registered and activated users can see links]): Hai. No get hit.


Not too quick on the old uptake there are you.


You have been suckered big-time by Maia. he was the most frightened rabbit fighter that I think I've ever seen. He is the challenger, does absolutely bugger all, yes absolutely sweet FA the entire flight. Had his face smashed in.


And Maia pulled some real odious, cynical bullshit to get himself off the hook for being total chicken shit himself.

Irrelevant.

Silva could and should have been more active in those last 2 or 3 rounds.

There is no excuse whatsoever for running the clock down and trying to minimize contact.

End of story.

[james4210]

Irrelevant.

Silva could and should have been more active in those last 2 or 3 rounds.

There is no excuse whatsoever for running the clock down and trying to minimize contact.

End of story.

The fighters are locked in a frigging cage, where the hell can your opponent go if he wants to run? . Silva shut Maia out on the scorecard every round.

His only hope was to lure Silva into a toe to toe swing fest to give himself the chance of landing a lucky punch, by his stand and fight gesturing, completely cynical and false bravado in my view, because he knew Silva was not going to change his game plan.

Every coach and trainer and ringman in the entire world will tell you to never get suckered in to this last desperate throw of the dice by a beaten fighter.

Silva should have tightened up and got serious, but he only acted like bit of a prat. But there is something really slimy and weasely about the way Maia acted making out that he is the real tough guy who just wanted to stand and bang. Bull-shit

[Popkins]

The fighters are locked in a frigging cage, where the hell can your opponent go if he wants to run? . Silva shut Maia out on the scorecard every round.

His only hope was to lure Silva into a toe to toe swing fest to give himself the chance of landing a lucky punch, by his stand and fight gesturing. and in the process distract from his poor performance.

Every coach and trainer and ringman in the entire world will tell you to never get suckered in to this last desperate throw of the dice by a beaten fighter.

I'm just going to re-post the same thing as last time, because you haven't said anything relevant there again:

Irrelevant.

Silva could and should have been more active in those last 2 or 3 rounds.

There is no excuse whatsoever for running the clock down and trying to minimize contact.

End of story.

[james4210]

Irrelevant.

Silva could and should have been more active in those last 2 or 3 rounds.

There is no excuse whatsoever for running the clock down and trying to minimize contact.

End of story.

Okay, I agree with you he should have been more active in the last two or three rounds.

But why don't you back up your second statement. Why is there no excuse for running the clock down and try to minimise contact?

I can think of some excuses you tell me what's wrong with them.

One, you don't want to get injured.

Two, you don't want to risk getting knocked out.

Three, why risk your title when you are a mile ahead of the scorecard.

four If you lose your belt, you lose your livelihood and may not be of the get fights because you don't get on with Dana.

five, it's normally the custom for the challenger to take the fight to the champ or else what the hell is he doing there.

six your opponent is a renowned jujitsu specialist who is very good at submissions. so it's a good idea to stay away on the outside.

seven, the fighter is ring rusty and his head is not in the right place.

[Popkins]

Okay, I agree with you he should have been more active in the last two or three rounds.

But why don't you back up your second statement. Why is there no excuse for running the clock down and try to minimise contact?

I can think of some excuses you tell me what's wrong with them.

One, you don't want to get injured.

Two, you don't want to risk getting knocked out.

Three, why risk your title when you are a mile ahead of the scorecard.

four If you lose your belt, you lose your livelihood and may not be of the get fights because you don't get on with Dana.

five, it's normally the custom for the challenger to take the fight to the champ or else what the hell is he doing there.

six your opponent is a renowned jujitsu specialist who is very good at submissions. so it's a good idea to stay away on the outside.

seven, the fighter is ring rusty and his head is not in the right place.

I posted my response to your p-o-v earlier in this thread:

A good way to illustrate this point for those of you who don't follow the sweet science much is to watch Pernell Whitaker vs Julio Cesar Chavez. Then watch Anderson Silva vs Demian Maia. You see, 'hit but don't get hit' does NOT mean refusing to engage in combat or trying to minimize the amount of contact going on. You can hit but not get hit while still being active, and even sporadically aggressive. You can fight on the backfoot, but still throw combinations. It's all about fighting intelligently, not purely being negative or over-cautious or doing the absolute minimum needed to scrape by on a points decision. Pernell Whitaker fights on the backfoot vs Chavez, and he fights with a defensive mindset, but because he wants to prove he is the superior fighter he is still actively trying to win the fight positively by utilizing his own strengths and not merely trying to avoid/evade Chavez and flick out punches to edge the rounds on the cards. He retreats, but he still throws his best punches, still throws them accurately trying to land cleanly, still uses combinations, all done while maintaining an emphasis on defence and safety.

No-one is saying Silva had to come out swinging like Arturo Gatti, no-one is saying he had to rush into battle like the Wanderlei Silva of old. But there is a way to fight intelligently, fight safely, and fight to his own strengths, without refusing to engage, and without running down the clock. Silva is being paid to fight and he should have the professional pride in his work to want to perform to the best of his ability when he is in the octagon. No-one is slating him for not jumping into the best BJJ practitioner in the game with flying knees and takedown attempts, but he could easily have utilized his superb striking game to convincingly and emphatically win every round. Instead of doing absolutely nothing in the final two rounds, he could've boxed actively, using a fast jab, maybe snapping out the odd lightning fast kick.

This answers your points. There is no excuse.

[james4210]

I'm just going to re-post the same thing as last time, because you haven't said anything relevant there again:

Okay enough is enough, you are quite right, Silva should have done to Maia. what I'm doing to you on this thread.

[tri-pod]

One, you don't want to get injured.

Running a clock down to not get inured is not the same as not fighting for 3 rounds.

Two, you don't want to risk getting knocked out.Because Silva had such a huge chance of getting knocked out by Maia. :roll:


Three, why risk your title when you are a
mile ahead of the scorecard.That's what a champion does.


four If you lose your belt, you lose your livelihood and may not be of the get fights because you don't get on with Dana.If Silva actually spent his cage time fighting instead of running around acting like a jackass I'm pretty sure he would get on with Dana a lot better. Why should Dana give him fights? If he performs like that then he shouldn't get any fights.


five, it's normally the custom for the challenger to take the fight to the champ or else what the hell is he doing there.A fight is between two people, not one and yes Maia was trying to take the fight to Silva. Silva was literally running the opposite direction.


six your opponent is a renowned jujitsu specialist who is very good at submissions. so it's a good idea to stay away on the outside.I have an idea... If your opponent is that dangerous why not finish him off in the first since you obviously could?

seven, the fighter is ring rusty and his head is not in the right place.This is Silva we are talking about. ;) (Yes you are obviously talking about Silva)

[southpaw jab]

It wasn't, in fact, it was better. But, people hate Anderson and love GSP. I don't. I'm actually the opposite, I love Anderson and hate GSP. But, that is how it goes. Was Floyd Mayweather Jr./Juan Manuel Marquez any worse than Manny Pacquiao/Joshua Clottey? Of course not. But, people hate Floyd Mayweather Jr. and they love Manny Pacquiao. Again, I'am the opposite. I think people just have a hard time when the best says that they are the best. It doesn't make any sense to me but, thats how it is.

[Rattler]

So... Silva was basically taking Rich Franklin's advice?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Popkins]

Okay enough is enough, you are quite right, Silva should have done to Maia. what I'm doing to you on this thread.

Eh? :huh

[Popkins]

Was Floyd Mayweather Jr./Juan Manuel Marquez any worse than Manny Pacquiao/Joshua Clottey? Of course not. But, people hate Floyd Mayweather Jr. and they love Manny Pacquiao.

I think the difference there was that Mayweather made a natural featherweight in his mid-30s jump 2 weight divisions to fight him, then came in over the agreed weight limit. The fight was a pointless mismatch. Manny Pacquiao, a former light-flyweight who was at superfeatherweight exactly 2 years ago, fought Joshua Clottey at 147lbs, and was outweighed by a substantial amount on the night. There is no mystery and no conspiracy why Pac was looked upon more favourably by comparison, it's fucking obvious.

[southpaw jab]

I think the difference there was that Mayweather made a natural featherweight in his mid-30s jump 2 weight divisions to fight him, then came in over the agreed weight limit. The fight was a pointless mismatch. Manny Pacquiao, a former light-flyweight who was at superfeatherweight exactly 2 years ago, fought Joshua Clottey at 147lbs, and was outweighed by a substantial amount on the night. There is no mystery and no conspiracy why Pac was looked upon more favourably by comparison, it's fucking obvious.
Marquez had twice the chance of beating Mayweather as Clottey did of beating Pacquiao.

[Popkins]

Marquez had twice the chance of beating Mayweather as Clottey did of beating Pacquiao.

If you believe that, you require urgent medical assistance.