Could a Prime Ezzard Charles beat Marciano?

[PowerPuncher]

We all know Marciano beat Charles twice when they met. But Charles was a few years past his prime at 33, coming off a few losses and still managed to win 5 or so rounds in their first contest.

So what if the 28yo Prime Charles showed up against Marciano? Can he win?

[Luigi1985]

Judging this when I remember watching tapes of a prime Charles, my answer is a "No!", IMO Marciano would always beat him...

[McGrain]

Of course. He could beat anyone at or around. Anyone who says "no" is not being sensible.

I think I would make a prime Charles favourite over prime Rocky.

[janitor]

We all know Marciano beat Charles twice when they met. But Charles was a few years past his prime at 33, coming off a few losses and still managed to win 5 or so rounds in their first contest.

So what if the 28yo Prime Charles showed up against Marciano? Can he win?

A Charles win is quite plausible in this scenario.

Archie Moore thought so incidentaly.

Truth is that a prime Charles would have a shot at anybody.

[PowerPuncher]

And how do you see it going

[Luigi1985]

Of course. He could beat anyone at or around. Anyone who says "no" is not being sensible.

I think I would make a prime Charles favourite over prime Rocky.


Of course, but that´s the case with every ATG, you know what I mean?

[McGrain]

Of course, but that´s the case with every ATG, you know what I mean?

Here's what I think -

every time these two square of prime for prime Rocky could get outpointed or Charles could get stopped.

PRIME for PRIME i pick Charles to make the finish line and take a tight decision. As soon as either Charles or both have slipped, Rocky has a slightly better chance than Charles does because Rocky slipping still means he is all over you like a rash.


EDIT: Also, there is the chance that Rocky could be stopped on cuts.

[Luigi1985]

Here's what I think -

every time these two square of prime for prime Rocky could get outpointed or Charles could get stopped.

PRIME for PRIME i pick Charles to make the finish line and take a tight decision. As soon as either Rocky or both have slipped, Rocky has a slightly better chance than Charles does because Rocky slipping still means he is all over you like a rash.




EDIT: Also, there is the chance that Rocky could be stopped on cuts.


:D


Just out of curiosity: Why do some guys here always pick Marciano losing on cuts? He wasn´t unimmunized for cuts...

[McGrain]

:D


Just out of curiosity: Why do some guys here always pick Marciano losing on cuts? He wasn´t unimmunized for cuts...

Cuts put him into overdrive for sure.

You cut him, good luck making it out of the next round!

[Luigi1985]

Cuts put him into overdrive for sure.

You cut him, good luck making it out of the next round!


:yep

[Marciano Frazier]

We all know Marciano beat Charles twice when they met. But Charles was a few years past his prime at 33, coming off a few losses and still managed to win 5 or so rounds in their first contest.

So what if the 28yo Prime Charles showed up against Marciano? Can he win? Charles was not "coming off a few losses" when he fought Marciano. He had won 13 of his last 15 fights. He had had two losses the previous year; one to Valdes and one to Johnson. For the Valdes loss, note here that Valdes was supposed to be just another stay-busy guy you fight along the road at the time; he was more or less an unknown and no one knew he would prove to have world-class potential. Reportedly, Charles came in cold, didn't seem to have vigor for the fight and lackadaisically lost the decision. The Johnson fight was a very close split decision(to one of the best heavyweights or light heavyweights around and a future Hall-of-Famer) which many who have seen the fight felt Charles won.
And since then, Charles had rebounded with resounding knockouts over two top 10 opponents(Wallace and Satterfield).

Admittedly, Charles' career was slightly on the slide at this point, but he was far from being a shot fighter. Further, many observers considered his performance in the first Marciano fight to have been the best of his entire career, or close to it- for example, Wilfrid Smith wrote that "Charles unquestionably offered the greatest fight of his long career" against Marciano, and W.J. McGoogan of the St. Louis Dispatch wrote that Charles fought a "wonderful fight, possibly the best in his career of about seventeen years". And while there is a lot of dramatization of the Charles/Marciano fights in the lore of boxing (much of it deserved, but it sometimes gives the wrong impression), the fact is that ultimately, Marciano soundly outpointed Charles in their first fight and dominantly knocked him out (NOTE: the nose cut was a freak-of-nature occurence and consitutes nothing more than a stroke of incredibly bad luck for Marciano, and he still won nearly every round and knocked Charles out) in the rematch.

So, all-in-all, I would expect Marciano to win over Charles at any stage of the latter's career.

[PowerPuncher]

Charles was not "coming off a few losses" when he fought Marciano. He had won 13 of his last 15 fights. He had had two losses the previous year; one to Valdes and one to Johnson. .

If you don't scew the statistics he lost 5 of his last 21 against the best 5 of those he faced. My point is prime Charles wouldnt have lost these and had deteriated and probably would win more rounds in his prime against Marciano.

[RockyJim]

Take The Rock!....Great chin....Great stamina...a very high work rate.....
power in both hands.....never say die attitude....he's too much for a lot of fighters to overcome...never mind Charles!!!

[albinored]

..Prime Charles was about 171...a little to small...but the still great Charles at 180 would beat Marciano.

[RoccoMarciano]

If you don't scew the statistics he lost 5 of his last 21 against the best 5 of those he faced. My point is prime Charles wouldnt have lost these and had deteriated and probably would win more rounds in his prime against Marciano.

Marciano ended Ezzard's prime.

[Mendoza]

I'd pick Rocky, but a prime Chalres would have a chance for an upset.

[RoccoMarciano]

The funny thing is Charles did beat Marciano in their first bout and he was past his prime.Charles fought alot different after he killed a guy in the ring.He didn't try to go in for the big knockout as often so answer would be yes a prime Charles would beat Marciano easier than he did in their first fight unless he got robbed because of his skin color again.

Still worrying about whether or not a guy has this or that colour skin I see. That kind of thinking died a long time ago (in Marciano's time - and even before), with the exception of a couple of idiots who constantly bring the matter up.

[albinored]

..even a Charles fanatic like myself conceded, as I watched it live on theatre pay-per-view that Marciano won that first fight. The difference between the two halves of the fight was a punch....legal...that caught Charles in the adam's apple and he could hardly breathe after that. He could not talk above a whisper for days.The ring magazine reporter said a Marciano blow landed after the bell (his favorite one-two was a punch while you were down followed by one after the bell)probably played a big factor....but..Marciano won and Ezzard never made any excuses and I don't either.

re: "Marciano ended Charles' prime". No way. Ezzard was past his prime when he beat Joe Louis. Even a post-prime Charles was still an outstanding fighter. If he had been in his prime for Marciano, Al Weill would not have made the match.

to say that race played a part in the decision is nonsense.

[Maxmomer]

Still worrying about whether or not a guy has this or that colour skin I see. That kind of thinking died a long time ago (in Marciano's time - and even before), with the exception of a couple of idiots who constantly bring the matter up.

There was no racism in the 50's?

[Holmes' Jab]

You'd certainly be a fool to write him off given how competitive both their actual fights were. It'd be very close to call that's for sure.


Either Marciano by TKO, or a points victory for Charles seem the most likely outcomes. :good

[Mega Lamps]

The funny thing is Charles did beat Marciano in their first bout and he was past his prime.Charles fought alot different after he killed a guy in the ring.He didn't try to go in for the big knockout as often so answer would be yes a prime Charles would beat Marciano easier than he did in their first fight unless he got robbed because of his skin color again.

The fight really was not close and the end of the fight has Charles going into survival mode.

[Luigi1985]

The funny thing is Charles did beat Marciano in their first bout and he was past his prime.Charles fought alot different after he killed a guy in the ring.He didn't try to go in for the big knockout as often so answer would be yes a prime Charles would beat Marciano easier than he did in their first fight unless he got robbed because of his skin color again.





You seriously need to get smashed.

[PowerPuncher]

..even a Charles fanatic like myself conceded, as I watched it live on theatre pay-per-view that Marciano won that first fight. The difference between the two halves of the fight was a punch....legal...that caught Charles in the adam's apple and he could hardly breathe after that. He could not talk above a whisper for days.The ring magazine reporter said a Marciano blow landed after the bell (his favorite one-two was a punch while you were down followed by one after the bell)probably played a big factor....but..Marciano won and Ezzard never made any excuses and I don't either.

re: "Marciano ended Charles' prime". No way. Ezzard was past his prime when he beat Joe Louis. Even a post-prime Charles was still an outstanding fighter. If he had been in his prime for Marciano, Al Weill would not have made the match.

to say that race played a part in the decision is nonsense.

Interesting contribution, you sound like you were around at the time, when did you see Charles prime as been? Is it rude to ask how old you are? Thanks

[Dempsey1238]

The 2nd fight was not all that close with charles winning 1 mere round on all 3 of the judges score cards going into round 8. I have the fight, and relly I think I gave Charles about the first round, and that was about it. Marciano relly took over with the knockdown of Charles in round 2, and relly pound Charles in rounds 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.

Yes Charles got lucky with the cut in round 6. but I gave Marciano the round with Marciano's higher ounch out put, to Charles VERY low punch out put. He got that elbow in that did the damage to the nose. But relly the myth was the 2nd fight was close, but it was relly a one sided beat down for Charles.

[Dempsey1238]

..even a Charles fanatic like myself conceded, as I watched it live on theatre pay-per-view that Marciano won that first fight. The difference between the two halves of the fight was a punch....legal...that caught Charles in the adam's apple and he could hardly breathe after that. He could not talk above a whisper for days.The ring magazine reporter said a Marciano blow landed after the bell (his favorite one-two was a punch while you were down followed by one after the bell)probably played a big factor....but..Marciano won and Ezzard never made any excuses and I don't either.

re: "Marciano ended Charles' prime". No way. Ezzard was past his prime when he beat Joe Louis. Even a post-prime Charles was still an outstanding fighter. If he had been in his prime for Marciano, Al Weill would not have made the match.

to say that race played a part in the decision is nonsense.

Your acting like Marcaino was protected as Champion. I find that hard to belive as Marciano time and time again went after the number 1 contender. I belive the match would have STILL been made had Charles been 25 or so and still the number 1 contender.

Moore, LarSarza, and Ezzard Charles, were all rank number 1 when Rocky gave em title shots. Marciano was not side stepping to fight a weaker oppention. Sure he gave Cockell a shot, but that was more of a test run for the nose. Outside of that evey one was rank 1.

[achillesthegreat]

Charles would never win.

[Minotauro]

I give Charles a good chance to win a decision he was a lot quicker in his prime and harder to hit but think he would loose a trilogy 2-1 to Marciano.

[RoccoMarciano]

There was no racism in the 50's?

I didn't notice much when it came to the boxing ring. Blacks fought against whites..

I any event, only small minded people keep bringing up ethnicity on nearly a constant basis.

[Marciano Frazier]

If you don't scew the statistics he lost 5 of his last 21 against the best 5 of those he faced. My point is prime Charles wouldnt have lost these and had deteriated and probably would win more rounds in his prime against Marciano.
If you want to be picky and play number games like that, be sure you get it right- he hadn't lost to five opponents; two of those losses were to the same opponent(Walcott), and it's plenty debatable whether those four(aside from Walcott) were the best opponents- the main reason you'd rank Valdes ahead of other opponents in that group is because he beat Charles, which is circular reasoning, and I think it's debatable whether Johnson or Layne were better heavyweights than Maxim or Bivins. Of the non-Walcott losses, two were very close/disputed decisions(Layne and Johnson) and Charles had since avenged the Layne loss in dominant fashion. He had just won back-to-back resounding knockouts over top 10 opponents and was the #1 contender for Marciano's title. Like I said before, while his career was a little bit on the downhill slope, he was by no means a used-up fighter at that point.

[mcvey]

You seriously need to get smashed.
Better to ignore him I think Luigi.

[mcvey]

We all know Marciano beat Charles twice when they met. But Charles was a few years past his prime at 33, coming off a few losses and still managed to win 5 or so rounds in their first contest.

So what if the 28yo Prime Charles showed up against Marciano? Can he win?
Since I think Charles was in his prime at or about LH I pick Rocky,but if Marciano isnt on his best form a decision win for Charles is allways a possibility.