Faber ............... is he still a P4P entry ???

[thewinfella]

Just thought id put this one out there to see what comes back .

My take on the situation is he was beaten by an elite fighter and he is still considered a P4P entry :

Elite fighters :

Sliva , GSP , Shogun , Machida , Aldo , Fedor

P4P entry's

Penn , Thiago Alves , Faber , Rashad , Rampage , Torres , Velasquez

And so on ......................... Thoughts !!!

[Wilhelm]

It's really hard to get a read on any of these WEC guys. At first it looked like Faber was the real deal P4P type guy, then he loses twice to Brown. Then everyone assumes that Brown is just that much of a stone cold badass. Then he loses two straight. Then some people think that it was just a too cocky/got caught/broken hand thing and Faber really was the real deal and he gets destroyed by Aldo. While all of this is going on, Miguell Torres goes from being top 5 P4P to losing two in a row.

Now, of course everyone loses in this sport at some point, but it's really hard to tell if all of these guys are just that good that even the best will lose if they're a bit off of their game or if they're all actually mediocre and only look good in comparison to each other.

[IntentionalButt]

When Penn lost 3 of 4, nobody dared suggest removing him from the pound for pound leaderboard.

Hell, he's 6-5 in his last eleven (possibly to be 6-6 in twelve come August), and nobody would even dream of it now. It'd be sacrilege.

Wilhelm, your argument could just as easily be applied to the UFC.

How do we know Chuck Liddell was ever any good, having lost 4 of 5? Just because he had the number of the highly regarded Ortiz? Ortiz has a lousy record, and hasn't won since a pair of wins over the overrated and over-the-hill Shamrock in 2006!

See?

Faber has talent that is cream of the crop in the world at his weight in his sport. Any blind fool could see that.

[TheBradyHawkes]

No, I wouldn't say so. He's arguably the 3rd or maybe even the 4th best FW in WEC.

[IntentionalButt]

No, I wouldn't say so. He's arguably the 3rd or maybe even the 4th best FW in WEC.

And what promotion has featherweight talent of a caliber that you'd favor over any of those 3 or 4 top guys in the WEC?

I'm still not convinced Faber wouldn't beat Brown a couple of times if they took it to a best-of-5.

[TheBradyHawkes]

And what promotion has featherweight talent of a caliber that you'd favor over any of those 3 or 4 top guys in the WEC?

I'm still not convinced Faber wouldn't beat Brown a couple of times if they took it to a best-of-5.

If you're going to ask the question, Is Faber a P4P entry RIGHT NOW?....then you have to look at his standing amongst his peers right now. If you move up a class, would he be a top 5 guy at LW? I don't think so myself. I like Faber, but at the moment he can't be in that conversation.

[thewinfella]

For me this is very debatable , i think my liking of Faber sometimes clouds my judgement of how good he actually is .

For me Aldo done nothing spectacular to beat Faber , because effectiveley Faber was beaten by the end of round 2 , he was done , and really all Aldo done was throw solid technically sound leg kicks , what did impress me with Aldo during these two rounds was his boxing , not offensiveley but defensiveley , he looked outstanding i mean really outstanding in that deprtment , its easy to sit here and say Aldo done nothing special but im sure it didnt seem that way to Faber !!!!!!

This is a hard one man , i do still think Faber belongs in P4P list top 10 , as i sincerley beleive P4P the guy has outstanding ability , on paper it doesnt look great for him but i think he'll come back after this .

One thing i will say is that before Faber's legs were taken away from him , his movement was off the charts , he looked razor sharp and his reflexes looked scary quick , i actually gave him round 1 against Aldo , and maybe im reading into this a little too much but that version of Faber blitzes any other FW in the world IMO !!!!!

[achillesthegreat]

It's really hard to get a read on any of these WEC guys. At first it looked like Faber was the real deal P4P type guy, then he loses twice to Brown. Then everyone assumes that Brown is just that much of a stone cold badass. Then he loses two straight. Then some people think that it was just a too cocky/got caught/broken hand thing and Faber really was the real deal and he gets destroyed by Aldo. While all of this is going on, Miguell Torres goes from being top 5 P4P to losing two in a row.

Now, of course everyone loses in this sport at some point, but it's really hard to tell if all of these guys are just that good that even the best will lose if they're a bit off of their game or if they're all actually mediocre and only look good in comparison to each other.

Much like the void left after Jones were Tarver and Johnson were tearing it up. Truth is they are average and the people they were beating are worse. Then decent skills and talent came along like Hopkins, Calzaghe and Dawson and the division took a step up.

[IntentionalButt]

If you're going to ask the question, Is Faber a P4P entry RIGHT NOW?....then you have to look at his standing amongst his peers right now. If you move up a class, would he be a top 5 guy at LW? I don't think so myself. I like Faber, but at the moment he can't be in that conversation.


That has nothing to do with anything.

God damn Manny Pacquiao. He's produced millions of misconceptions about what the term "pound for pound" actually means.

Reverting to my original statement - Faber has a talent base that is not only among the best in active MMA Featherweights, but probably somewhere in the top 20 period in the sport (meaning relative to the weight they fight at, meaning p4p).

[Vitor Belfort]

Just thought id put this one out there to see what comes back .

My take on the situation is he was beaten by an elite fighter and he is still considered a P4P entry :

Elite fighters :

Sliva , GSP , Shogun , Machida , Aldo , Fedor

P4P entry's

Penn , Thiago Alves , Faber , Rashad , Rampage , Torres , Velasquez

And so on ......................... Thoughts !!!


sorry this is out of topic but penn not in the elite class?:patsch

[achillesthegreat]

sorry this is out of topic but penn not in the elite class?:patsch

I thought that as well. It is sad that MMA fans are becoming as fickle as boxing fans.

[Wilhelm]

Wilhelm, your argument could just as easily be applied to the UFC.

How do we know Chuck Liddell was ever any good, having lost 4 of 5? Just because he had the number of the highly regarded Ortiz? Ortiz has a lousy record, and hasn't won since a pair of wins over the overrated and over-the-hill Shamrock in 2006!

See?

Faber has talent that is cream of the crop in the world at his weight in his sport. Any blind fool could see that.

I see your point, but the difference is that because the UFC has been around for so long and making sure that the best available fight the best available that I have a lot more faith that Liddell really was one of the very top 205ers in the world when he was the champ. There had been a well established record of 205ers in known big organizations for many years whereas for the lower weights this wasn't the case. Torres has an amazing record, but because it wasn't against guys that were known to be at or near the top (the way Oritiz and Belfort and Couture were when Liddell beat them) then I don't know if that's because he was that good or because he was fighting lesser guys. Of course, it may be that the best at 135 really were fighting each other and I'm just ignorant of it, but without the television contracts I doubt there'd be the money and other incentives for guys to travel across the US or world to fight at a small show.

Bottom line, of course Torres could be a top P4P fighter who just happened to get caught twice in a row. But him, and Brown, AND Faber? Three guys that were considered to be way way up there and then lose multiple times in a short period? It seems more likely to me that it's unclear who is really good than that they all just got super unlucky at the same time.

[Badlok]

He his exinting and got talent but i doubt he would get that belt back. Maybe if Aldo drop his belt like he said he will do to claim another title in another division!

[Iceman778]

yes but they should fight well first

[thewinfella]

sorry this is out of topic but penn not in the elite class?:patsch

P4P Penn does not hang with the elite of MMA please give me evidence that he does , trust me you do not think more of BJ Penn than me , ive been to Hilo and trained with the guy , he's my idol , but he doesnt not belong in with the likes of Silva , GSP , Fedor and co !!!! , they are a notch above BJ , if there was a catagory in the middle of Elite and P4P entry's Penn would be top of that catagory ......................

[sugarngold]

I would say "no." I thought the Aldo fight really exposed Faber as a guy that is very athletically gifted - but extremely limited in technique. He can work his way back into the rankings and rebuild himself - but he was dominated by Aldo through classic technique that he seemed to have no answer for.

[jimmie]

If he was still a P4P entry im guessing you could argue to have him in the P4P top 10 ? I just cant do that atleast not at the moment. Urijah was defientally worth being ranked that highly during his long title run and even going into the Aldo fight but this is a guy who was dominated by Aldo and lost twice to Brown in his last 5 fights. I think Urijah is in the 15-20 range but thats not quite good enough to be ranked as an entry. Wouldnt shock me if he fought his way back into a high spot though. I think Urijah showed agianst a good fighter in Raphael Assuncao just how good a fighter he is. I just think right now he has to put some consistent wins together and at the very least prove he is the clear number 2 at 145 behind Aldo because right now you can argue its Fernendes(even though Urijah beat him years ago), Brown or Gamburyan.

[thewinfella]

If he was still a P4P entry im guessing you could argue to have him in the P4P top 10 ? I just cant do that atleast not at the moment. Urijah was defientally worth being ranked that highly during his long title run and even going into the Aldo fight but this is a guy who was dominated by Aldo and lost twice to Brown in his last 5 fights. I think Urijah is in the 15-20 range but thats not quite good enough to be ranked as an entry. Wouldnt shock me if he fought his way back into a high spot though. I think Urijah showed agianst a good fighter in Raphael Assuncao just how good a fighter he is. I just think right now he has to put some consistent wins together and at the very least prove he is the clear number 2 at 145 behind Aldo because right now you can argue its Fernendes(even though Urijah beat him years ago), Brown or Gamburyan.

Thats a very good post :good

[thewinfella]

I would say "no." I thought the Aldo fight really exposed Faber as a guy that is very athletically gifted - but extremely limited in technique. He can work his way back into the rankings and rebuild himself - but he was dominated by Aldo through classic technique that he seemed to have no answer for.

Exposed is a strong word big man , by technique im assuming your talking about Muay Thai here right ??? , because in every other aspect of the stand up Faber was Aldo's equal IMO ...............

[jimmie]

Exposed is a strong word big man , by technique im assuming your talking about Muay Thai here right ??? , because in every other aspect of the stand up Faber was Aldo's equal IMO ...............

I agree I think Urijah's hands where equal to Aldo's. I cant consider it being exposed because Urijah does have decent Muay Thai skills but Aldo is truely a master of his craft that cant ever be denied his leg kicks will break just about anyone and we know that for a fact. Urijah has a quality Thai coach so im sure hes worked on checking kicks but Aldo's come so fast and powerful that Urijah as quick as he is just couldnt respond and lets be real after about 4-5 Aldo kicks you wont be able to defend them after that.

[Rudyard]

I agree I think Urijah's hands where equal to Aldo's. I cant consider it being exposed because Urijah does have decent Muay Thai skills but Aldo is truely a master of his craft that cant ever be denied his leg kicks will break just about anyone and we know that for a fact. Urijah has a quality Thai coach so im sure hes worked on checking kicks but Aldo's come so fast and powerful that Urijah as quick as he is just couldnt respond and lets be real after about 4-5 Aldo kicks you wont be able to defend them after that.
Are you gonna honor your bet??

[One Punch KO]

No, after two losses to MTB and another loss to Aldo, I don't see any arguement for having Faber in the top ten P4P. He is still a major part of the 145lbs division though.

[jimmie]

Are you gonna honor your bet??

What was the bet ?

[Rudyard]

What was the bet ?
Mosley\Mayweather

Put me down for Sugar Shane.

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[sugarngold]

Well I said exposed and that's pretty much what I meant. Faber doesn't put his combinations together, he lunges with his attacks, he does unorthodox and downright stupid moves such as his "hi-lite" reel moment of doing a jump knee while his opponent has secured a single on him. He has been able to get away with these moves against lesser opponents - but as his past few fights have shown - he can't do it against the best of the division. If I knew I couldn't handle Aldo's kicks - I wouldn't try to check them - I would time them for a takedown. Faber isn't an old fighter without the spring in his step like Renzo - he is young and should have been able to change his game up against Aldo and he couldn't. That's the way I saw it.