Did Gun Boat Smith KO Jack Johnson in a 4 round exhibition match?

[Mendoza]

This has been a topic of debate before. Here's the offical news read.

It was a shot to the chin that floored Johnson. It appears it was a TKO win for Smith, but Johnson's manager saved him from the knock out. While Gunboat Smith could punch, I don't think he was a real power puncher.


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[PowerPuncher]

Dead Jack Johnson run away with your grandma Mendoza leaving your father motherless and you grandmaless?

[janitor]

This has been a topic of debate before. Here's the offical news read.

It was a shot to the chin that floored Johnson. It appears it was a TKO win for Smith, but Johnson's manager saved him from the knock out. While Gunboat Smith could punch, I don't think he was a real power puncher.


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The article just says that Johnson was knocked down and got to his feet.

So he was not knocked out end of story.

[Mendoza]

Blame McVey. He's asking for it. This is a history boxing board. New paper reads should always be welcome.:good

If you want any, just PM me. I'll be happy to post them.

[Luigi1985]

Dead Jack Johnson run away with your grandma Mendoza leaving your father motherless and you grandmaless?


C´mon, PowerPuncher, what´s that? He just tries to tell us why he thinks Jack Johnson is a bit overrated, it doesn´t change the fact that Johnson is one of the greatest ever...

[Mendoza]

The article just says that Johnson was knocked down and got to his feet.

So he was not knocked out end of story.

He was down and got up badly dazed. Johnson's manager cut the round short. Hence, you could argue he was saved from the knockout. Since we do not have the video, we won't know for sure. What we do know is the report, which suggests GunBoat was the better.

[janitor]

He was down and got up badly dazed. Johnson's manager cut the round short. Hence, you could argue he was saved from the knockout.

He was knocked down in an exhibition but got up.

Seems like something of a non event to me.

[mcvey]

:lol: Dead Jack Johnson run away with your grandma Mendoza leaving your father motherless and you grandmaless?
MENDACITY IS GETTING SURREAL NOW ,DO YOU THINK HE IS A SECRET MEMBER OF THE KLAN?:lol: :lol:

[Mendoza]

:lol:
MENDACITY IS GETTING SURREAL NOW ,DO YOU THINK HE IS A SECRET MEMBER OF THE KLAN?:lol: :lol:

This is out of bounds. I am objective and like all types of fighters. I won't go down to your level with such bunk.

Now how about shot by Gunboat to the chin? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: AND :lol:!

[Mendoza]

C´mon, PowerPuncher, what´s that? He just tries to tell us why he thinks Jack Johnson is a bit overrated, it doesn´t change the fact that Johnson is one of the greatest ever...

Right. I never said Johsnon was not a great fighter. Instead I think he is an over rated great fight of his era, and give reasons why.

[Luigi1985]

Right. I never said Johsnon was not a great fighter. Instead I think he is an over rated great fight of his era, and give reasons why.


Right. The same with me, when I say something about a fighter why I think he´s overrated for example and back that up with facts, I get attacked and get called a hater. :tired

[mcvey]

The article just says that Johnson was knocked down and got to his feet.

So he was not knocked out end of story.
JOHNSON was training for the Ketchel fight ,Smith was his sparring partner. In March 1970 Smith gave a taped interview to Peter Heller for his book , "In This Corner",an excellent book,,during the interview Smith stated that he knocked Johnson through the ropes during sparring ,and that Johnson ,boosted his reputation,when he got to New York by saying " they got a fellow down there my god,hell knock a brick wall down", Smith never claimed that he kod Johnson.This is just another stick for Mendacity to beat Johnson with.

[Grebfan9]

Hi Mendoza,

Great article. Gunboat Smith was just starting out in boxing when
this happened. Gunboat had a good punch, though he was really
a lightheavyweight in weight. Gunboat had decent speed and
a decent reach, so he was able to land on Johnson.

Like I posted recently, I don't think that Johnson's chin was that
sturdy. Choynski KOED Johnson with ONE punch; Ketchel dropped
Johnson with ONE punch; Gunboat decked him with ONE punch;
Willard stopped him with ONE punch.


Grebfan9
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This has been a topic of debate before. Here's the offical news read.

It was a shot to the chin that floored Johnson. It appears it was a TKO win for Smith, but Johnson's manager saved him from the knock out. While Gunboat Smith could punch, I don't think he was a real power puncher.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mcvey]

Right. The same with me, when I say something about a fighter why I think he´s overrated for example and back that up with facts, I get attacked and get called a hater. :tired
your not a hater Luigi,we disagree about Johnson and Carnera but you are allways rational,and you post some intruiging matchups.

[mcvey]

Blame McVey. He's asking for it. This is a history boxing board. New paper reads should always be welcome.:good

If you want any, just PM me. I'll be happy to post them.
youll be happy to put spin on any article or old news clipping that you can twist to reflect detrimentallyon John Arthur Johnson .

[Luigi1985]

your not a hater Luigi,we disagree about Johnson and Carnera but you are allways rational,and you post some intruiging matchups.



Thank you, good to hear that from a good poster like you! Well, we aren´t miles away when it comes to Carnera and Johnson, I have Jack in my Top10-list and rate him in almost every area pretty high, and I rate Carnera as a Top50-HW, I´m sure you see it likewise... :thumbsup

[mcvey]

This has been a topic of debate before. Here's the offical news read.

It was a shot to the chin that floored Johnson. It appears it was a TKO win for Smith, but Johnson's manager saved him from the knock out. While Gunboat Smith could punch, I don't think he was a real power puncher.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]
How can a sparring session be interpreted as a ko win by either fighter? Toxie Hall dropped Marciano in sparring ,Greg Page dropped Tyson ,should these count on their records as legitimate knockdown ,and should we infer that they were save d from stoppages, throught the actions of their corner men?.I prefer to beleive the man who scored the knock down ,Smith himself. The expression clutching at straws clings to mind.

[mcvey]

Johnson Was Never Stopped By A Punch To The Chin From
1894 To 1928,i Make This Statement, With All Respect To The Other Posters On This Forum, And Invite Them To Prove Me Wrong If They Are So Inclined.johnson Was Also Stopped In 1938 By Walter Price ,he Was Then 60 And Took The Count Sitting On The Floor ,tears In His Eyes,an Account Of This Fight Was Printed In Either The Boxing Illustrated Or The Ring Magazine ,i Have It Somewhere ,its A Good Read. My Point Is To Refute The Assertion That Johnson Had A"suspect Chin",no Other Agenda.

[mcvey]

:good :good Thank you, good to hear that from a good poster like you! Well, we aren´t miles away when it comes to Carnera and Johnson, I have Jack in my Top10-list and rate him in almost every area pretty high, and I rate Carnera as a Top50-HW, I´m sure you see it likewise... :thumbsup

[OLD FOGEY]

He was knocked down in an exhibition but got up.

Seems like something of a non event to me.

Yeah, I don't see a big deal about this. He was probably diddling around and got caught. In a serious fight, he would have been serious.
Except for the 26th round ko by Willard, he was not stopped from 1901 into the mid-twenties in an official fight.

[ChrisPontius]

Thank you, good to hear that from a good poster like you! Well, we aren´t miles away when it comes to Carnera and Johnson, I have Jack in my Top10-list and rate him in almost every area pretty high, and I rate Carnera as a Top50-HW, I´m sure you see it likewise... :thumbsup

I don't think anyone would dispute Carnera being a top50 HW though...

[Mendoza]

youll be happy to put spin on any article or old news clipping that you can twist to reflect detrimentallyon John Arthur Johnson .

Did you read the ending? If so, what do you think happens if Johnson's manager did not cut the last round short when the paper reports Johnson was dazed? Do tell.


Also, being badly dazed like this from Smith only adds to my belief that Johnson, like many heavyweights has suspect durability vs punchers. While Gunboat Smith could hit, he would not be on a list of all time 50 punchers at heavyweight! I've got plenty of these McVey. The only interesting spin is watching you say my dislike for Johnson = the News paper reads don't count. This doesn’t hold any water, so stop going to the same well.

Gunboat Smith was perhaps the best of the white hopes. He beat many of the same fighters Johnson's gave title shots, and did so more decisively than Johnson did.

Some of the fighters Gunboat Smith beat while Johnson was champion were Sam Langford, Jess Williard, Frank Moran, Fireman Flynn, Tony Ross, and Battling Levinsky. These wins trump Johnson entire title run.

I feel that Johnson felt Gunboat Smith was too good, which is why Smith never got a title shot from him. Smith earned a title shot from Johnson for sure. It is ironic that the best white hope was porched from a title shot.

Could Smith have beaten Johnson before Willard? I think so. The 4 round report clearly shows that Smith could put Johnson down and likely out. He had enough skills to land, and enough power to make something happen when he did. I won’t say who would win between Smith and Johnson from 1911-1915, but I will say you have to give Smith a real chance to win at the very least.

A cursory glace of unbiased news reads show the Johnson had trouble in title defenses with O'Brien, and Jim Johnson. In fact he was lucky to get the draws in both of these fights. Jim Johnson most certainly appeared to be robbed of the lineal title. Neither O'Brien or Jim Johnson got a re-match. Getting knocked down by Ketchel makes you wonder about Johnson's chin, as Ketchel landed nothing serious before the knock down. Barely edging a good, but not great fighter in Moran raises further suspension.

Just imagine what if Johnson fought the real talents at heavyweight as champion. Men like Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Sam McVey, Gunboat Smith, or heck, even a fighter like Jeff Clark? How long would he have been champion?

I dare say the entire history of the lineal champion would have been changed, and it could have happened shortly after the December 1908 Burns fight with the proper judging or Johnson accepting some hefty purse offers to fight them.

[mcvey]

Did you read the ending? If so, what do you think happens if Johnson's manager did not cut the last round short when the paper reports Johnson was dazed? Do tell.


Also, being badly dazed like this from Smith only adds to my belief that Johnson, like many heavyweights has suspect durability vs punchers. While Gunboat Smith could hit, he would not be on a list of all time 50 punchers at heavyweight! I've got plenty of these McVey. The only interesting spin is watching you say my dislike for Johnson = the News paper reads don't count. This doesn’t hold any water, so stop going to the same well.

Gunboat Smith was perhaps the best of the white hopes. He beat many of the same fighters Johnson's gave title shots, and did so more decisively than Johnson did.

Some of the fighters Gunboat Smith beat while Johnson was champion were Sam Langford, Jess Williard, Frank Moran, Fireman Flynn, Tony Ross, and Battling Levinsky. These wins trump Johnson entire title run.

I feel that Johnson felt Gunboat Smith was too good, which is why Smith never got a title shot from him. Smith earned a title shot from Johnson for sure. It is ironic that the best white hope was porched from a title shot.

Could Smith have beaten Johnson before Willard? I think so. The 4 round report clearly shows that Smith could put Johnson down and likely out. He had enough skills to land, and enough power to make something happen when he did. I won’t say who would win between Smith and Johnson from 1911-1915, but I will say you have to give Smith a real chance to win at the very least.

A cursory glace of unbiased news reads show the Johnson had trouble in title defenses with O'Brien, and Jim Johnson. In fact he was lucky to get the draws in both of these fights. Jim Johnson most certainly appeared to be robbed of the lineal title. Neither O'Brien or Jim Johnson got a re-match. Getting knocked down by Ketchel makes you wonder about Johnson's chin, as Ketchel landed nothing serious before the knock down. Barely edging a good, but not great fighter in Moran raises further suspension.

Just imagine what if Johnson fought the real talents at heavyweight as champion. Men like Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Sam McVey, Gunboat Smith, or heck, even a fighter like Jeff Clark? How long would he have been champion?

I dare say the entire history of the lineal champion would have been changed, and it could have happened shortly after the December 1908 Burns fight with the proper judging or Johnson accepting some hefty purse offers to fight them.
IT WAS A SPARRING SESSION,GET IT? IT PROVES NOTHING. I GAVE YOU A COUPLE OF OTHERS,MARCIANO AGAINST HALL,TYSON AGAINST PAGE,DOES THAT MEAN EITHER OF THEM WOULD BEAT THEIR EMPLOYERS IN A REAL FIGHT? SMITH NEVER CLAIMED THAT HE KNOCKED OUT JOHNSON ,OR EVEN DAZED HIM,IN HIS TAPED INTERVIEW ,HE SAID HE PUT JOHNSON THROUGH THE ROPES.YOU ARE SO DESPERATE TO BEAT JOHNSONWITH YOUR STICK ,ITS BECOMING LAUGHABLE,MOMENTARILY YOU HAD ME ANNOYED AT YOUR SMUG ASSERTIONS ,NOW ,AS YOU BECOME MORE WILD AND ERRATIC IN YOUR SEARCH FOR MORE DAMNING EVIDENCE AGAINST JOHNSON ,I FIND YOU JUST RATHER SILLY ,AND PATHETIC.PERHAPS ITS TIME FOR YOU TO TRY ANOTHER SONG?

[janitor]

Did you read the ending? If so, what do you think happens if Johnson's manager did not cut the last round short when the paper reports Johnson was dazed? Do tell.


If we are going to bring up all the incidents where all time greats were droped in exhibitions by nobodies we will be here a long time.

Jack Johnson being droped by Gunboat Smith willl be one of the less remarkable examples.

[Grebfan9]

McVey,

With all due respect, I AM a Jack Johnson fan.

I am also a fan of Floyd Patterson - Patterson's family moved to
Mount Vernon, NY where my Father's family was from. My Uncle
Bob was good friends with Floyd's brother Jerome. Yet, I will
admit that Floyd didn't have a strong chin.

No offense to Johnson, but I too feel that he didn't have a great
chin - Joe Choynski, a lightheavyweight KOED him with one punch.
He was also dropped by middleweight Ketchel - again with a single
punch. In addition, Gunboat Smith was not even a ranked fighter
in 1909 when he dropped Johnson. In addition, Johnson was
dropped and badly hurt in an exhibition with Philip Piersenn, an
AMATEUR heavyweight boxer.

Johnson also stated in his autobiography that he was hurt by Langford
when they fought. Johnson outweighed Langford by about 30 pounds
and was much more experienced than Langford at the time of the fight.

Johnson seemed to have trouble with wiry fighters like Gunboat Smith,
and Hank Griffin. My guess is that these type of fighters had the
speed to tag him.

I think that Johnson had great skills and could beat alot of fighters.
But, I think that his chin was not that tough.


Grebfan9
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IT WAS A SPARRING SESSION,GET IT? IT PROVES NOTHING. I GAVE YOU A COUPLE OF OTHERS,MARCIANO AGAINST HALL,TYSON AGAINST PAGE,DOES THAT MEAN EITHER OF THEM WOULD BEAT THEIR EMPLOYERS IN A REAL FIGHT? SMITH NEVER CLAIMED THAT HE KNOCKED OUT JOHNSON ,OR EVEN DAZED HIM,IN HIS TAPED INTERVIEW ,HE SAID HE PUT JOHNSON THROUGH THE ROPES.YOU ARE SO DESPERATE TO BEAT JOHNSONWITH YOUR STICK ,ITS BECOMING LAUGHABLE,MOMENTARILY YOU HAD ME ANNOYED AT YOUR SMUG ASSERTIONS ,NOW ,AS YOU BECOME MORE WILD AND ERRATIC IN YOUR SEARCH FOR MORE DAMNING EVIDENCE AGAINST JOHNSON ,I FIND YOU JUST RATHER SILLY ,AND PATHETIC.PERHAPS ITS TIME FOR YOU TO TRY ANOTHER SONG?

[mcvey]

McVey,

With all due respect, I AM a Jack Johnson fan.

I am also a fan of Floyd Patterson - Patterson's family moved to
Mount Vernon, NY where my Father's family was from. My Uncle
Bob was good friends with Floyd's brother Jerome. Yet, I will
admit that Floyd didn't have a strong chin.

No offense to Johnson, but I too feel that he didn't have a great
chin - Joe Choynski, a lightheavyweight KOED him with one punch.
He was also dropped by middleweight Ketchel - again with a single
punch. In addition, Gunboat Smith was not even a ranked fighter
in 1909 when he dropped Johnson. In addition, Johnson was
dropped and badly hurt in an exhibition with Philip Piersenn, an
AMATEUR heavyweight boxer.

Johnson also stated in his autobiography that he was hurt by Langford
when they fought. Johnson outweighed Langford by about 30 pounds
and was much more experienced than Langford at the time of the fight.

Johnson seemed to have trouble with wiry fighters like Gunboat Smith,
and Hank Griffin. My guess is that these type of fighters had the
speed to tag him.

I think that Johnson had great skills and could beat alot of fighters.
But, I think that his chin was not that tough.


Grebfan9
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You are entirely entitled to yuor opinion,its as valid as the next mans. My point is that Choynsky,who was a very hard hitter kod Johnson with a punch to the temple ,and wether you beleive the knock down of Johnson was legit or not ,the punch landed around the top of his ear,thank you for bringing the knockdown by Piersson to my attention ,I was unaware of it.

[biglads]

I was more interested in the Billiards tbh

[Grebfan9]

Hi McVey,

I am actually a fan of Johnson. I equate my statements about
Johnson's suspect chin as the same as I would state that Marciano
was susceptible to being badly cut in fights. I am always looking
for fight films of Johnson. I would like to find out more about
his black opponents, such as Frank Childs and Denver Ed Smith.
Hank Griffin was one tough guy too! Tall, wiry fighter with good
speed. Gave Jim Jeffries a good fight, and I suspect that Griffin
was a bit past his prime when they fought.

I do wish that he had given Langford a title fight. Langford deserved
a title fight far more than Jim Flynn and Al Kaufman.

No guys, I am NOT against white figters (BTW, I am a white guy).
Just think that Langford was great and deserved a title fight.
Langford never received a title fight against O'brien or Ketchel
either, though Langford was rumored to have a title fight lined
up with Ketchel and then Ketchel was murdered.


Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])



You are entirely entitled to yuor opinion,its as valid as the next mans. My point is that Choynsky,who was a very hard hitter kod Johnson with a punch to the temple ,and wether you beleive the knock down of Johnson was legit or not ,the punch landed around the top of his ear,thank you for bringing the knockdown by Piersson to my attention ,I was unaware of it.

[janitor]

No offense to Johnson, but I too feel that he didn't have a great
chin -

It must be noted that all Johnsons knockouts come either before his peak run or after it.

His peak run lasted 7 years and 9 months with a record of 40-2-3 no contests. Not one knockout in that period despite fighting 5.81 times a year mainly against name oponents.

[mcvey]

It must be noted that all Johnsons knockouts come either before his peak run or after it.

His peak run lasted 7 years and 9 months with a record of 40-2-3 no contests. Not one knockout in that period despite fighting 5.81 times a year mainly against name oponents.
As you said earlier Janitor , Johnson was a late developer,he was nearly 31 when he won the title.

[he grant]

Just found this old thread ... interesting article, any idea confirming the date as Johnson is not referred to as champion ...

Gunboat Smith was basically a cruiserweight but a killer puncher ... Dempsey said the hardest he was ever hit in his life was by Smith ...

I am as big a fan of Johnson as just about anyone but will be the first to say he did not have an iron chin .. More like Lennox Lewis than an Ali ...

[SuzieQ49]

. Getting knocked down by Ketchel makes you wonder about Johnson's chin

ketchel hit as hard if not harder than fitzimmons

[timmers612]

Ellis dropped Ali in sparring with a right hand also. Can't remember if this happened more then once, but at the time it alarmed boxing scribes. I've always been abit amazed that Jeffries thought Johnson so fast. He seemed to have average speed to me for heavy's of the day, maybe a bit faster with his feet when he wanted too, but a little clumsy comeing forward quickly due to his weight being on his back foot. There will always be questions about Jack and he caused them by whom he wouldn't fight. I can't see Louis or Ali getting much through on him and I'm not sure what his subtle offense would do to them either.

[Ramon Rojo]

Gunboat Smith couldn't carry Jack's jockstrap.

[Mendoza]

ketchel hit as hard if not harder than fitzimmons

Keep telling yourself that, and it still will not be true.

[Loewe]

Keep telling yourself that, and it still will not be true.

Prove the opposite.

[ChrisPontius]

An interesting fact - but nothing more than that.

Sparring and training stories are almost always exaggerated, and at any rate, they're not real fights. One of them may be going easy while the other decided to go in top gear.... this is boxing, those things can happen. Greg Page dropped Tyson in '89 (it is on film), but that doesn't change my opinion about Tyson the slightest bit.

[he grant]

OK, how many top heavyweight contenders and heavyweight champions did Ketchel KO ?