Would the chin experts of ESB care to grade the following chins?

[RAMPAGE0017]

.. and even if you're not an expert feel free to chime in anyway. :good

And if it's a fighter whose fought in more than one division feel free to rate their chin for that certain division as well.

Joe Mesi

Andre Berto

Allen Green

Kelly Pavlik

Chad Dawson

Jermain Taylor

Tommy Hearns

Bernard Hopkins

Lennox Lewis

Wladimir Klitschko

Felix Trinidad

Joe Frazier

Roy Jones

Manny Pacquiao

Jaidon Codrington

[MrStayman]

I'm not an expert. In fact, I'm a chin checker noob. But here goes -

Joe Mesi - No idea

Andre Berto - Untested, but probably in the B range

Allen Green - D

Kelly Pavlik - B+

Chad Dawson - B+

Jermain Taylor - C+

Tommy Hearns - C+

Bernard Hopkins - A-

Lennox Lewis - C+

Wladimir Klitschko - C-

Felix Trinidad - C+

Joe Frazier - Don't know... if I had to guess, I'd say B-

Roy Jones - C-

Manny Pacquiao - B

Jaidon Codrington - F

[Punisher33]

I'm not an expert. In fact, I'm a chin checker noob. But here goes -

Joe Mesi - No idea

Andre Berto - Untested, but probably in the B range

Allen Green - D

Kelly Pavlik - B+

Chad Dawson - B+

Jermain Taylor - C+

Tommy Hearns - C+

Bernard Hopkins - A-

Lennox Lewis - C+

Wladimir Klitschko - C-

Felix Trinidad - C+

Joe Frazier - Don't know... if I had to guess, I'd say B-

Roy Jones - C-

Manny Pacquiao - B

Jaidon Codrington - F Not bad, I would change Pavliks to a B-, and Wlads to a D-, other than that pretty good.

[KO Boxing]

Does being knocked out by Foreman give you a B- chin? Frazier's chin is in the A range... :deal

[sues2nd]

Does being knocked out by Foreman give you a B- chin? Frazier's chin is in the A range... :deal

:yep

[MrStayman]

Does being knocked out by Foreman give you a B- chin? Frazier's chin is in the A range... :dealBad guess then

[The Whaler]

Where the Zakman when we need him?

[Polymath]

I'm not an expert. In fact, I'm a chin checker noob. But here goes -

Joe Mesi - No idea

Andre Berto - Untested, but probably in the B range

Allen Green - D

Kelly Pavlik - B+

Chad Dawson - B+

Jermain Taylor - C+

Tommy Hearns - C+

Bernard Hopkins - A-

Lennox Lewis - C+

Wladimir Klitschko - C-

Felix Trinidad - C+

Joe Frazier - Don't know... if I had to guess, I'd say B-

Roy Jones - C-

Manny Pacquiao - B

Jaidon Codrington - F
Taylor has a better chin than Dawson, easy. And not just p4p, Dawson has a paper chin he's about o be exposed a la Wlad Sanders/Brewster.

[Amsterdam]

Here is the official ratings from the Zakman-Amsterdam system.

Joe Mesi - Glass

Andre Berto - Shaky

Allen Green - Shaky

Kelly Pavlik - Average

Chad Dawson - Average

Jermain Taylor - Shaky

Tommy Hearns - Shaky

Bernard Hopkins - Iron

Lennox Lewis - Glass

Wladimir Klitschko - Shaky

Felix Trinidad - Good

Joe Frazier - Good

Roy Jones - Shaky

Manny Pacquiao - Good

Jaidon Codrington - Grade A China

[Amsterdam]

Taylor has a better chin than Dawson, easy. And not just p4p, Dawson has a paper chin he's about o be exposed a la Wlad Sanders/Brewster.

Wrong, Dawson recovered quickly when Adamek put a perfect right on his jaw, when Pavlik nailed that perfect straight right on Taylor, he was all but out on his feet.

Taylor's chin is not better than Dawson's.

Dawson is also 2-3 levels better than Taylor as an overall fighter. Grow up.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Here is the official ratings from the Zakman-Amsterdam system.

Joe Mesi - Glass

Andre Berto - Shaky

Allen Green - Shaky

Kelly Pavlik - Average

Chad Dawson - Average

Jermain Taylor - Shaky

Tommy Hearns - Shaky

Bernard Hopkins - Iron

Lennox Lewis - Glass

Wladimir Klitschko - Shaky

Felix Trinidad - Good

Joe Frazier - Good

Roy Jones - Shaky

Manny Pacquiao - Good

Jaidon Codrington - Grade A China



Why is Jones shaky and Lewis glass?

[Flatlander]

Joe Mesi - C

Andre Berto - C

Allen Green - B+

Kelly Pavlik - B

Chad Dawson - B

Jermain Taylor - C+

Tommy Hearns - Once a B but now an F

Bernard Hopkins - B

Lennox Lewis - B

Wladimir Klitschko - C+

Felix Trinidad - B+

Joe Frazier - A

Roy Jones - C+

Manny Pacquiao - A

Jaidon Codrington - C+

[Amsterdam]

Why is Jones shaky and Lewis glass?

Because Jones P4P showed a level up in punch resistance from Lewis. Jones was taken out from Tarver yes, but later in his career, he showed no punch resistance problems at his best and even in the Johnson bout, it took a sustained beating to put him out.

So we can agree that Jones at 175 later in the career indeed has a glass chin.

But he had a workable chin at 160 and 168, so the chin rating system goes china to glass to shaky to average as the bottom four 'levels', in averaging Jones' later 175 glass chin with an 'average' chin from 160-168, then all in all he should be awarded 'shaky' for the overall career.

When Lewis was hit perfect on the jaw on two occassions, he was absolutely KTFO and it was at a time where he at his peak or close to it.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Jaidon Codrington - C+


You don't carry sarcasm all that well.. you better leave that to the big boys. :hat

[Amsterdam]

Joe Mesi - C

Andre Berto - C

Allen Green - B+

Kelly Pavlik - B

Chad Dawson - B

Jermain Taylor - C+

Tommy Hearns - Once a B but now an F

Bernard Hopkins - B

Lennox Lewis - B

Wladimir Klitschko - C+

Felix Trinidad - B+

Joe Frazier - A

Roy Jones - C+

Manny Pacquiao - A

Jaidon Codrington - C+

:rofl

Wlad and Cod are on the same level? When was Wlad utterly KTFO in 1 round, having to be carried out on a stretcher unconcious?

To my knowledge, Wlad has never knocked unconcious.

[Flatlander]

You don't carry sarcasm all that well.. you better leave that to the big boys. :hat

No sarcasm intended.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Because Jones P4P showed a level up in punch resistance from Lewis. Jones was taken out from Tarver yes, but later in his career, he showed no punch resistance problems at his best and even in the Johnson bout, it took a sustained beating to put him out.

So we can agree that Jones at 175 later in the career indeed has a glass chin.

But he had a workable chin at 160 and 168, so the chin rating system goes china to glass to shaky to average as the bottom four 'levels', in averaging Jones' later 175 glass chin with an 'average' chin from 160-168, then all in all he should be awarded 'shaky' for the overall career.

When Lewis was hit perfect on the jaw on two occassions, he was absolutely KTFO and it was at a time where he at his peak or close to it.


So.. if I'm understanding you right.. you're throwing in his OVERALL resistance in the divisions he's been in rather than judging it from an individual weight class, right?

If you want to put it that way that's fine, but nevertheless.. Jones didn't get hit nearly enough for me to say that he even had a " workable " chin at 160/168, in order to judge someone's chin they first need to be HIT on the chin, and judging from the big shots that actually landed well.. I think Jones' is glass. Hell, the punch that Johnson knocked Jones out with didn't even land on the chin, so that to me shows a poor punch resistance overall, not just a weak chin.

[Flatlander]

:rofl

Wlad and Cod are on the same level? When was Wlad utterly KTFO in 1 round, having to be carried out on a stretcher unconcious?

To my knowledge, Wlad has never knocked unconcious.

The man had never been hurt until he met one of the harder punchers in his division. There is no sin in being KOed by Alan Green. Many other have been. Green was naturally the bigger fighter too. Jaidon has no history of being hurt in fights. Wladimir has a long history of being staggered. If Green had not KOed Jaidon, I would have given him a B+.

[Amsterdam]

So.. if I'm understanding you right.. you're throwing in his OVERALL resistance in the divisions he's been in rather than judging it from an individual weight class, right?

If you want to put it that way that's fine, but nevertheless.. Jones didn't get hit nearly enough for me to say that he even had a " workable " chin at 160/168, in order to judge someone's chin they first need to be HIT on the chin, and judging from the big shots that actually landed well.. I think Jones is glass. Hell, the punch that Johnson knocked Jones out with didn't even land on the chin, so that to me shows a poor punch resistance overall, not just a weak chin.

Every fighter gets hit, no matter how hard to hit they are. He showed solid enough punch resistance at 160 and 168, enough to at least rate it at 'average'.

I agree that by the time Tarver got him, his chin was glass, that's not even negotiable.

[Flatlander]

Every fighter gets hit, no matter how hard to hit they are. He showed solid enough punch resistance at 160 and 168, enough to at least rate it at 'average'.

I agree that by the time Tarver got him, his chin was glass, that's not even negotiable.

:huh Of course it is negotiable. Jones' chin was as good as it ever was. Jones had never fought any wars. He was not punchy or was he ring weary. He was slower all around and lacked the same reflexes but the punch that Tarver landed would have hurt of KOed anyone. It was the perfect punch right on the button.

[Flatlander]

More chins.

Chris Byrd "A" (except against superheavy weights)

James Toney "A"

Sam Peter "B"

Evander Holyfield "A" once but now a "C"

Shannon Briggs "C-"

Vitali Klitschko "B"

[codeman99998]

More chins.

Chris Byrd "A" (except against superheavy weights)

James Toney "A"

Sam Peter "B"

Evander Holyfield "A" once but now a "C"

Shannon Briggs "C-"

Vitali Klitschko "B"

C'mon now. VITALI isn't Wladimir, his chin is/was VERY solid.

[Flatlander]

C'mon now. VITALI isn't Wladimir, his chin is/was VERY solid.

Hell, I gave the man a "B"! :lol:

[codeman99998]

Hell, I gave the man a "B"! :lol:

Fair enough, lol, i probably overreacted.

I'd give him an A though. The only time I've ever seen him staggered were from great shots from Lennox, and even then, I don't think he was that badly hurt.

[Flatlander]

Fair enough, lol, i probably overreacted.

I'd give him an A though. The only time I've ever seen him staggered were from great shots from Lennox, and even then, I don't think he was that badly hurt.

Five years ago I would have given him a "A" :yep

[RAMPAGE0017]

Five years ago I would have given him a "A" :yep


B is about right for Vitali, I think.

[J_Roth]

Here is the official ratings from the Zakman-Amsterdam system.

Joe Mesi - Glass

Andre Berto - Shaky

Allen Green - Shaky

Kelly Pavlik - Average

Chad Dawson - Average

Jermain Taylor - Shaky

Tommy Hearns - Shaky

Bernard Hopkins - Iron

Lennox Lewis - Glass

Wladimir Klitschko - Shaky

Felix Trinidad - Good

Joe Frazier - Good

Roy Jones - Shaky

Manny Pacquiao - Good

Jaidon Codrington - Grade A ChinaPretty good stuff Hammy.

[ozziebattler]

Here is the official ratings from the Zakman-Amsterdam system.

Joe Mesi - Glass

Andre Berto - Shaky

Allen Green - Shaky

Kelly Pavlik - Average

Chad Dawson - Average

Jermain Taylor - Shaky

Tommy Hearns - Shaky

Bernard Hopkins - Iron

Lennox Lewis - Glass

Wladimir Klitschko - Shaky

Felix Trinidad - Good

Joe Frazier - Good

Roy Jones - Shaky

Manny Pacquiao - Good

Jaidon Codrington - Grade A China

Amsterdam=Wanks dogs..

[Mendoza]

RAMPAGE0017 and even if you're not an expert feel free to chime in anyway. :good

And if it's a fighter whose fought in more than one division feel free to rate their chin for that certain division as well.


Joe Mesi - Grade C

Andre Berto - Not sure yet

Allen Green - Not sure yet. Not too good.

Kelly Pavlik - Grade B+

Chad Dawson - Not sure yet

Jermain Taylor Grade B-

Tommy Hearns Grade C+

Bernard Hopkins Grade A

Lennox Lewis Grade B-

Wladimir Klitschko Grade B-

Felix Trinidad - Grade B

Joe Frazier Grade B-

Roy Jones Grade C+

Manny Pacquiao Grade B+

Jaidon Codrington - Not sure yet

[Rollo]

Here is the official ratings from the Zakman-Amsterdam system.

Lennox Lewis - Glass



The only two punches that KO´d Lewis would´ve KO´d any heavyweight, except maybe the likes of Ali and Marion Wilson.

[Zakman]

The only two punches that KO´d Lewis would´ve KO´d any heavyweight, except maybe the likes of Ali and Marion Wilson.

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

The same line that folks always offer to try to excuse why a shaky-chinned fighter gets starched. It can't be proved - and when a fighter gets get taken out early twice, it looks even more ridiculous than usual! :lol:

[Fighting Weight]

Joe Mesi C

Andre Berto Unknown as yet

Allen Green Shaky, maybe a C-

Kelly Pavlik B-

Chad Dawson B

Jermain Taylor Again a B-

Tommy Hearns B

Bernard Hopkins A+ - Granite

Lennox Lewis B

Wladimir Klitschko C-

Felix Trinidad C

Joe Frazier B+

Roy Jones B

Manny Pacquiao B

Jaidon Codrington - never seen him fight, don't know.



Why the fuck are certain people asking for Zakman to post in this thread, by the way :huh He's one of the most ignorant cunts on the board :deal

[Zakman]

Why the fuck are certain people asking for Zakman to post in this thread, by the way :huh He's one of the most ignorant cunts on the board :deal
Kid, I was probably following boxing when you were in diapers. The fans around here know and respect my knowledge of this sport and know I can spot a shaky chin when I see one!!:yep

[elTerrible]

I dont think that Hearns is as bad as its made out to be.

His KO losses came to two all time greats and then to Barkley who was a larger fighter with decent power.

His chin obviously was the weakest link for him but I think it was only average to just under average.

[elTerrible]

Hops its hard to say. Its good no doubt, but he hasnt been caught with anything bad enough to be able to verify its granite.

The worst shot hes ever taken is probably from Echols hitting him on the break when Hops hands were down.
He didnt even flinch so he took it well, his chin is good.

It hasnt been proven the way that McCall and Vitalis has been by taking some nasty shots from Lewis.

[Rollo]

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

The same line that folks always offer to try to excuse why a shaky-chinned fighter gets starched. It can't be proved - and when a fighter gets get taken out early twice, it looks even more ridiculous than usual! :lol:

come on - the punch that Rahman used to KO Lewis was equally powerful to the one that Frazier floored Ali with. And very few but Ali would have got up again.

[Zakman]

come on - the punch that Rahman used to KO Lewis was equally powerful to the one that Frazier floored Ali with. And very few but Ali would have got up again.

How do you know that??:huh

[Rollo]

How do you know that??:huh

Don´t turn this into exact science. These discussions never are......

[RAMPAGE0017]

I'm still waiting for Zakman's evaluation.

[Punisher33]

Zakman tell them Wlads chin is glass and not shaky, the man has been down like 12 times and has been TKOd 3 times already.

[Zakman]

Here is is:

Joe Mesi - Glass

Andre Berto - Shaky

Allen Green - Shaky

Kelly Pavlik - Average

Chad Dawson - Average

Jermain Taylor - Shaky

Tommy Hearns - Shaky

Bernard Hopkins - Iron

Lennox Lewis - Shaky

Wladimir Klitschko - Shaky

Felix Trinidad - Good

Joe Frazier - Good

Roy Jones - Shaky

Manny Pacquiao - Good

Jaidon Codrington - Grade A China

[Zakman]

Zakman tell them Wlads chin is glass and not shaky, the man has been down like 12 times and has been TKOd 3 times already.
Yeah, but he's never knocked cold. Guys with true glass chins get knocked the f*ck out, like Hasim Rahman or Fraudley. Wlad has been down, he's been stopped, but he's never been truly starched. That's exactly why he's rated "shaky" rather than "glass."

[Punisher33]

Here is is:

Joe Mesi - Glass

Andre Berto - Shaky

Allen Green - Shaky

Kelly Pavlik - Average

Chad Dawson - Average

Jermain Taylor - Shaky

Tommy Hearns - Shaky

Bernard Hopkins - Iron

Lennox Lewis - Shaky

Wladimir Klitschko - Shaky

Felix Trinidad - Good

Joe Frazier - Good

Roy Jones - Shaky

Manny Pacquiao - Good

Jaidon Codrington - Grade A China Jones has a better chin than Wlad, Wlad has been down more than any of the top 20 heavywieghts right now.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Here is the official ratings from the Zakman-Amsterdam system.

Joe Mesi - Glass

Andre Berto - Shaky

Allen Green - Shaky

Kelly Pavlik - Average

Chad Dawson - Average

Jermain Taylor - Shaky

Tommy Hearns - Shaky

Bernard Hopkins - Iron

Lennox Lewis - Glass

Wladimir Klitschko - Shaky

Felix Trinidad - Good

Joe Frazier - Good

Roy Jones - Shaky

Manny Pacquiao - Good

Jaidon Codrington - Grade A China

And BTW, I agree with pretty much every grade here, except I would make just a few changes..

Mesi- China. I've seen him dropped and hurt by light hitting fighters, and everyone knows what happened against Jirov, who is powerful but usually scores KOs through volume, not single shots, and he's not even a real HW either.

Lewis - shaky. You can make an arguement for glass but I'm just not buying it. The shots that Lewis took from Rahman and McCall weren't the only hard shots he's taken flush. And also, contrary to what some say.. McCall did not KTFO Lewis, it's highly debatable that the stoppage might've even been premature.

[Punisher33]

Yeah, but he's never knocked cold. Guys with true glass chins get knocked the f*ck out, like Hasim Rahman or Fraudley. Wlad has been down, he's been stopped, but he's never been truly starched. That's exactly why he's rated "shaky" rather than "glass." Ok, but you cant tell me wouldve been knocked out cold if he would been allowed to continue in the Brewster fight or the Sanders fight?

[Clearly Cool]

Although interesting, rating chins like this is pointless.

Getting KD or KO'd had more to do with the puch as opposed to the chin. I bet half of the shots that dropped people with "bad chins" were hard clean shots that wouldve hurt anyone (sometimes).

Also rating people based on how many times they have been dropped or KO'd is very misleading, again because it depends on the punch.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Lewis fought Heavyweights, which is basically an openweight division, there is no level up per se'. He showed no punch resistance problems earlier because he never got hit clean, and when he did by a C level he got dropped and hurt. Not trying to rag on Jones mind you, but to rag on Lennox and defend Jones makes no sense. The punches that took out Lennox were mammoth, and he took other mammoth punches in his career. I believe based on the shots he took, and the fact that he was only floored twice in his career, and got up from one, that Lennox had a good chin, a pretty solid one.


I'm a Lewis fan, but he truly got KTFO by Rahman, and it was a single punch, too. So I'd hardly say his chin was solid, but it wasn't glass either.

[boxfan99]

Yeah, but he's never knocked cold. Guys with true glass chins get knocked the f*ck out, like Hasim Rahman or Fraudley. Wlad has been down, he's been stopped, but he's never been truly starched. That's exactly why he's rated "shaky" rather than "glass."

Zakman, how would you rate the chins of Lacy and Andrade?

[Punisher33]

I never understood why everyone said lewis' chin is glass, he fought the best Heavywieghts and was knocked out twice. So was Holyfield and everybody thinks he has a great chin.

[Zakman]

Zakman, how would you rate the chins of Lacy and Andrade?

Both are solid. I'd put Andrade slightly ahead of Lacy because Lacy was floored by Calzaghe, who is not exactly the hardest hitter. Andrade, on the other hand, stood up to Kessler, a harder hitter.

Of course, since both remain active, it remains to be seen what their final ratings turn out to be. If you asked me to speculate, I think that Lacy's rating might go down while Andrade's may go up. But this is really just speculation at this point.

[RAMPAGE0017]

What is your point? He took other great punches in his career from great punchersand survived very well, and as I said, and as is the absolute truth, anybody can go out when hit right, and being as he was only out once(the other time he got up), I'd say it was pretty damn solid, far from glass.


He did take great punches in his career which is why I think his chin is just shaky rather than glass, but not only did Lewis get KTFO by Rahman, but he wasn't even close to beating the count.

[Zakman]

I never understood why everyone said lewis' chin is glass, he fought the best Heavywieghts and was knocked out twice. So was Holyfield and everybody thinks he has a great chin.

It took FAR better fighters, and FAR more rounds to knock Holyfield out - and when he was in the heart of his career, he was only stopped once, against Riddick Bowe, one of the best HWs of the era. And even then, it took eight rounds of punishment to take him out!

[Punisher33]

It took FAR better fighters, and FAR more rounds to knock Holyfield out - and when he was in the heart of his career, he was only stopped once, against Riddick Bowe, one of the best HWs of the era. And even then, it took eight rounds of punishment to take him out! Agreed, Lewis' has pretty good chin though, he took everything Vitali had to offer and still didnt go down at the end of his career.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Agreed, Lewis' has pretty good chin though, he took everything Vitali had to offer and still didnt go down at the end of his career.


That fight is one of the main reasons why I refuse to rate Lewis anything lower than " shaky ". Vitali was tagging him with clean, hard right hands right on the button.

[Zakman]

Agreed, Lewis' has pretty good chin though, he took everything Vitali had to offer and still didnt go down at the end of his career.

I wouldn't call it "pretty good" because Lewis was knocked cold once - the telltale sign of a glass jaw. And he was knocked senseless, although not cold, against McCall. Yet, as you say, on other occassions, he wasn't. All in all, imho, it adds up to a rating of "shaky.":yep

[Punisher33]

That fight is one of the main reasons why I refuse to rate Lewis anything lower than " shaky ". Vitali was tagging him with clean, hard right hands right on the button. That was one of my favorite fights of 03, Lewis' slugged it out with a huge puncher and came out the winner and didnt go down once, who knows what would of happend if the fight continued. I had a new respect for both fighters after that night, thats what every title fight should look like, two men beating the shit out of each other to be champ.

[Punisher33]

I wouldn't call it "pretty good" because Lewis was knocked cold once - the telltale sign of a glass jaw. And he was knocked senseless, although not cold, against McCall. Yet, as you say, on other occassions, he wasn't. All in all, imho, it adds up to a rating of "shaky.":yep I respect and mostly agree with your scoring system, but TKOs and knockdowns should count too. The only reason Wlads chin looks good now is because no one has tapped it since Peter, everytime he gets hit with a solid punch he has a panic attack it seems, his chin is glass. Your telling me he wouldve got knocked the fuck out against Brewster if they would of let the fight go longer?

[Zakman]

I respect and mostly agree with your scoring system, but TKOs and knockdowns should count too. The only reason Wlads chin looks good now is because no one has tapped it since Peter, everytime he gets hit with a solid punch he has a panic attack it seems, his chin is glass. Your telling me he wouldve got knocked the fuck out against Brewster if they would of let the fight go longer?

I don't know. It's precisely because of these sorts of uncertainties that I think refs shouldn't be so quick to pull the trigger on stoppages. If that fight had gone to its natural conclusion, we would know. As it is, all we're left with is speculation. And given that, I can't rate Wlad's chin as glass, because he's NEVER been truly knocked cold.

[Punisher33]

I don't know. It's precisely because of these sorts of uncertainties that I think refs shouldn't be so quick to pull the trigger on stoppages. If that fight had gone to its natural conclusion, we would know. As it is, all we're left with is speculation. And given that, I can't rate Wlad's chin as glass, because he's NEVER been truly knocked cold. I understand what your saying, but in boxing the only reason stoppages happen is because a fighter is in danger of being seriously hurt and probably knocked out. Wlad couldnt even defend himself in the Brewster fight and at one point had his hands down, a knockout was inevitable.

[PolishPummler]

Zakman's and Amterdamn's chin obsession is lame and full of double standards.