Where is Aaron Pryor in your all time greats list?

[Bad_Intentions]

Top 20.

[dmt]

more like top 50

[JohnThomas1]

Might sneak in at the tail of the 50, not sure.

[pryorgatti]

top 25

[My dinner with Conteh]

As a guess I'd say around 39-44.

[sweet_scientist]

This is what my list looks like today, though it has been altered numberless times and will probably continue to be altered the more I learn/forget about boxing.



1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Benny Leonard
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Sandy Saddler
11. Archie Moore
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Joe Gans
14. Marvin Hagler
15. Carlos Monzon
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Jimmy Wilde
18. Eder Jofre
19. Joe Louis
20. Gene Tunney
21. Julio Cesar Chavez
22. Barney Ross
23. Tony Canzoneri
24. Jose Napoles
25. Ike Williams
26. Salvador Sanchez
27. Emile Griffith
28. Mickey Walker
29. Alexis Arguello
30. Fighting Harada
31. Thomas Hearns
32. Roy Jones Jr.
33. Jim Driscoll
34. Kid Gavilan
35. Carlos Ortiz
36. Michael Spinks
37. Larry Holmes
38. Evander Holyfied
39. Packey McFarland
40. Bob Fitzsimmons
41. Joe Walcott
42. Terry McGovern
43. Charley Burley
44. Rocky Marciano
45. Carlos Zarate
46. Aaron Pryor
47. Azumah Nelson
48. Duilio Loi
49. Wilfred Benitez
50. Nicolino Locche
51. Miguel Canto
52. Tommy Loughran
53. Billy Conn
54. Jake Lamotta
55. Bernard Hopkins
56. Ruben Olivares
57. Wilfredo Gomez
58. Dick Tiger
59. Marcel Cerdan
60. George Foreman
61. Tiger Flowers
62. Jack Dempsey
63. Joe Frazier
64. Oscar De la Hoya
65. Tommy Ryan
66. Carmen Basilio
67. Antonio Cervantes
68. Jack Blackburn
69. Sonny Liston
70. Bob Foster
71. George Dixon
72. Owen Moran
73. Jack Johnson
74. Jimmy McLarnin
75. Stanley Ketchel
76. Pasqual Perez
77. Abe Atell
78. Dave Holly
79. Lou Ambers
80. Lew Tendler
81. Felix Trinidad
82. Luis Rodriguez
83. Kid Chocolate
84. Vicente Saldivar
85. Manuel Ortiz
86. Sammy Angott
87. Bob Montgomery
88. Young Griffo
89. Mike McCallum
90. Lennox Lewis
91. Harold Johnson
92. Mike Tyson
93. Johnny Dundee
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Eusebio Pedroza
96. Erik Morales
97. Marco Antonio Barrera
98. Tony Zale
99. Mike Gibbons
100. Freddie Welsh

[dmt]

thats a pretty nice list SS, however given that Dempsey, Marciano and Frazier were small heavyweights that competed against bigger ones, i'd say they should be higher. IMO Frazier and Dempsey are atleast top 50.

[sweet_scientist]

thats a pretty nice list SS, however given that Dempsey, Marciano and Frazier were small heavyweights that competed against bigger ones, i'd say they should be higher. IMO Frazier and Dempsey are atleast top 50.

Perhaps dmt, I must admit that heavyweights aren't really my forte, and there's probably a lot of adjustments to the placements of the heavies that I'd make if I gave it more thought.

Who on my list that I have above Frazier and Dempsey would you say deserve to be below them?

[brooklyn1550]

Depends what the list is based on...head to head or accomplishments? If it is based on accomplishments, I have him in the top 75. Head to head, he is definitely in the top 50.

[Thread Stealer]

Not especially high. Ranking him top 20-25 is incredibly overrating him. Although he was a beast, he wasted too much of his talent. Accomplishments/resume is more important than mythical head-to-head matchups.

[Robbi]

Top 50

[Bummy Davis]

At 140 he was one of the best, and would hold his own with Tszu, Whitaker,Duran...he may lose to Duran but he would go down on his sheild

[sweet_scientist]

Any particular reason Monzon is above Whitaker? I've given you my reasons for him being ahead of Hagler a while back, and the others ahead of him I have no real problem with, but I don't quite get Monzon as far as resume and accomplishments go. I think Whitaker was just as good a LW as Monzon a MW and Whitaker accomplished a lot more at other weights as well.

Anyways, to the question, I have Pryor I think around 50, not fully sure if he is though, haven't made a list in a while.

No really good reason for Monzon or Hagler being above Whitaker, they are all pretty much on a par and can be shuffled around imo.

I think they all just about achieved as much as each other. Whitaker fought in more weight classes but Hagler and Monzon both had better runs in a single division. In terms of their head to head ability I think all three are extremely difficult to beat for anyone.

If anything separates them, its probably that I felt that Monzon and Hagler ended their careers on top (I had Hagler by a point over Ray) whereas Whitaker floundered a little bit right at the end.

Having said that though, I'm not sure Monzon or Hagler beat a Felix Trinidad level fighter in their last fight.

And furthermore, you could probably argue that Monzon and Hagler wouldn't have the ability to move up in weight as succesfully as Whitaker did, seeing as Monzon relied quite a bit on his height, punching power and strength (facets which would be diminished at lightheavy) and Hagler relied on his toughness, power and strength (which wouldn't be as marked against lightheavies)....

[TBooze]

If anything separates them, its probably that I felt that Monzon and Hagler ended their careers on top (I had Hagler by a point over Ray) whereas Whitaker floundered a little bit right at the end.

Having said that though, I'm not sure Monzon or Hagler beat a Felix Trinidad level fighter in their last fight.



A bit hard on Valdez, at the time he was a fine fighter who would of been a very respected World Champion if it were not for the fact such a great like Monzon was in his era.

Excellent, well thought out top 100 list, by the way.

[dmt]

Perhaps dmt, I must admit that heavyweights aren't really my forte, and there's probably a lot of adjustments to the placements of the heavies that I'd make if I gave it more thought.

Who on my list that I have above Frazier and Dempsey would you say deserve to be below them?Pryor since i think Frazier and Dempsey defeated a wider range of good fighters and didn't abuse themselves with drugs either. McGovern was also a superb fighter but burned down far too quickly

[sweet_scientist]

A bit hard on Valdez, at the time he was a fine fighter who would of been a very respected World Champion if it were not for the fact such a great like Monzon was in his era.

Excellent, well thought out top 100 list, by the way.
Thanks T.

Don't get me wrong though, I'd pick Valdez to beat Tito at middleweight, but I think Tito is slightly better level fighter as a welter than Valdez is as a middle.

[sweet_scientist]

Pryor since i think Frazier and Dempsey defeated a wider range of good fighters and didn't abuse themselves with drugs either. McGovern was also a superb fighter but burned down far too quickly

That's a fair call dmt. I think i'm impressed with Pryor's style more than his accomplishments to tell you the truth (taking nothing away from his accomplishments though) and that's probably justifying his high placement for me.

I have no real qualms with Frazier or Dempsey ranking higher than him.

[Thread Stealer]

Top 20.

What on earth did he do to be ranked in the top 20 of all-time?

Cervantes, Arguello, Johnson, Blackmoore, Kameda is enough to get him in the top 20 of all-time?

Pryor wasted far too much talent and his resume is lacking to be even close to the top 20, and if he were around today, he would be getting far more criticism and nitpicking that so many of today's fighters get since they are fresh in the mind and not of the past.

[Manassa]

Top 20.

Bollocks, load of bollocks.

[GazOC]

Pryor gets the James Dean, Marc Bolan 'what might have been' type votes. He's maybe top 50 on potential and not even that on accomplishments.

[Holmes' Jab]

He might make it into my top 50. I'd say mid-late 40's or something.

[JohnThomas1]

I've always said it, Pryor's legend is enormous compared to his actual accomplishments. The guy was great, but he didn't do half enough to get to where many seem to rate him.

[TBooze]

I've always said it, Pryor's legend is enormous compared to his actual accomplishments. The guy was great, but he didn't do half enough to get to where many seem to rate him.

I agree; I have at #73. Pryor is tough to rate because his decent championship reign was fairly short, and I suspect, he would of peaked at 135lbs, but had to move up to get the fights he wanted.

[JohnThomas1]

I agree; I have at #73. Pryor is tough to rate because his decent championship reign was fairly short, and I suspect, he would of peaked at 135lbs, but had to move up to get the fights he wanted.

He needed to stay clean, his biggest challenges, and therefore ATG builders were still ahead of him. 147 pounds was where it was at with Curry finding greatness (or seeming to for critics) and a healthy Hawk easily still in his prime if not for drugs. If he'd stayed clean and beat a rampant Curry before the Honeyghan bout the sky was the limit i reckon. Curry was enormously regarded at that time.

[TBooze]

He needed to stay clean, his biggest challenges, and therefore ATG builders were still ahead of him. 147 pounds was where it was at with Curry finding greatness (or seeming to for critics) and a healthy Hawk easily still in his prime if not for drugs. If he'd stayed clean and beat a rampant Curry before the Honeyghan bout the sky was the limit i reckon. Curry was enormously regarded at that time.

Pryor/Curry post Curry/McCrory could of worked, no doubt. With hindsight a healthy Pryor needed a Leonard who did not retire for his superfight.

But one or two too many if's, but's and maybe's there...


You did not fall for the Curry hype? I may of only been 12, but I remembering picking Curry over Hagler pre Honeyghan:oops:

[GazOC]

You did not fall for the Curry hype? I may of only been 12,

I'll hold my hand up, I did. I was 15 and Curry had just walked through McCrory, LaRocca and Jones....With the exeption of Hearns (styles and all that) I thought the guy was unbeatable under 160.

[redrooster]

Pryor's standing in my view has dropped because his refusal to meet with Johnny Bumphus, a pathetic southpaw. Johnny had no weapons and no way to beat Pryor. Was Pryor afraid to meet him?

Pryor's career was short too but his defenses and wins over name opponents raises his status. Still, not enough going for him. In the 80's he gets a ranking outside top ten.

[JohnThomas1]

Pryor's standing in my view has dropped because his refusal to meet with Johnny Bumphus, a pathetic southpaw. Johnny had no weapons and no way to beat Pryor. Was Pryor afraid to meet him?


I don't think Johnny's legs would have held up just walking to the ring if he had to face Pryor. You think Duva was gonna let Aaron loose on poor Bumphus? Not likely.

[JohnThomas1]

Pryor/Curry post Curry/McCrory could of worked, no doubt. With hindsight a healthy Pryor needed a Leonard who did not retire for his superfight.

But one or two too many if's, but's and maybe's there...


You did not fall for the Curry hype? I may of only been 12, but I remembering picking Curry over Hagler pre Honeyghan:oops:

Spot on, i usually mention this, Pryor did indeed need a SRL bout around the time Ray retired. The ultimate litmus test for him.

Curry hype. To be honest i think Curry was in awesome form for quite some time and agree he might have been better off moving up earlier. I never did think he'd beat either Hearns, Hagler or a comebacking Leonard at any stage. I did think he was awesome tho and would not fall so quickly and heavily. I think his durability would have always come under scrutiny as soon as he moved up and fought bigger, better and stronger men.

[redrooster]

I don't think Johnny's legs would have held up just walking to the ring if he had to face Pryor. You think Duva was gonna let Aaron loose on poor Bumphus? Not likely.

Why was it Pryor gave up his wba title and given the ibf title?

[TBooze]

Why was it Pryor gave up his wba title and given the ibf title?

Pryor gave up his WBA title (December 83) and retired because of eye damaged he suffered in sparring for the Arguello rematch.

But because of money troubles his retirement lasted one month, and in January 1984 he announced his comeback. The IBF, like they had with Holmes and Hagler proclaimed Pryor as their first champion; The Hawk;) making his first defence in June 84 against Furlano.

[redrooster]

thanks. ^ that may be the reason he gave but I don't believe it. that seems to be everyone's favorite excuse. I think he was just paid off to step aside so that Bumphus could claim a title. another fix in boxing.

[Robbi]

Spot on, i usually mention this, Pryor did indeed need a SRL bout around the time Ray retired. The ultimate litmus test for him.

Curry hype. To be honest i think Curry was in awesome form for quite some time and agree he might have been better off moving up earlier. I never did think he'd beat either Hearns, Hagler or a comebacking Leonard at any stage. I did think he was awesome tho and would not fall so quickly and heavily. I think his durability would have always come under scrutiny as soon as he moved up and fought bigger, better and stronger men.

Curry would have found Hearns' power too much, and Hagler was just too damn strong.

I think Curry could well have tempted Hagler into a fight at 160lbs, if he wasn't beaten by Honeyghan. Around late 86 was when Hagler and Leonard was in full swing and the negotiations were well underway. If Leonard never started to beat the drum for a Hagler showdown, Curry was probably the only new challenge for Hagler with a nice purse up for grabs.

Curry was struggling with the scales at welterweight as far back as 82, and the weight eventually caught up with him when Honeyghan came calling. But Hagler at 160lbs would probably be a bridge too far for Curry. He'd need all the mobility possible against a natural middleweight like Hagler, and his effectiveness would not be as potent.

I fancy Hagler to KO Curry inside 7 rounds if they squared off around late 86, early 87.

[JohnThomas1]

thanks. ^ that may be the reason he gave but I don't believe it. that seems to be everyone's favorite excuse. I think he was just paid off to step aside so that Bumphus could claim a title. another fix in boxing.

Well why the bullshit about Pryor refusing to meet Bumphus? Either way your first comment was just a troll, as usual.

:lol:

[redrooster]

Curry woud have to favored to whip Hagler in 87 considering his lack of reflexes and punch. I give any of the leading contenders a damn good chance of beating that shell. Even Herol Graham.

[redrooster]

Well why the bullshit about Pryor refusing to meet Bumphus? Either way your first comment was just a troll, as usual.

:lol:

I felt Pryor could definitely whip the helpless Bumphus-early if he was motivated and in proper shape but in the end, Pryor stepped aside for Johnny.

The problem with you JT is you always fall for the hype because you got no mind of your own. It's too easy to have someone else do your thinking for you.

The proof is in the pudding-1) Pryor comes out with a phony excuse-the eye as usual (2) Retires (steps out of the way) and by the time he "comes back", no longer has his title and is back in the ring one month later. Pryor retires due to an eye injury and runs out of money in a couple weeks? :lol:

Then, Bumphus is fighting for a vacant title (yeah right) and Pryor comes back with another. As I said, another fix in boxing.

people like Bumphus and leonard have the media on their side and get these "arrangements" with the media playing them down of course. Then when Bumphus fails to impress the media again comes to his rescue putting him on the cover of some magazine then titling it "let's win this one then look good the next time"

Except in the case of Bumphus, Johnny really couldn't fight so I knew their efforts to defend him would prove to be useless and one defense later, he was exposed by Hatcher the way leonard was eventually exposed by Norris.

So much for the man who was supposed to knock out Aaron Pryor in the late rounds.

[sweet_scientist]

Curry woud have to favored to whip Hagler in 87 considering his lack of reflexes and punch. I give any of the leading contenders a damn good chance of beating that shell. Even Herol Graham.

By 87 Curry had been bent over twice. He wasn't beating Hagler, no matter how deteriorated Marv was.

[redrooster]

By 87 Curry had been bent over twice. He wasn't beating Hagler, no matter how deteriorated Marv was.

al hagler had at the time was experience but what good is it if he's moving in slow motion. You'd have to suck not to beat that version of Hagler. Even the weaver triplets made sport of him in sparring.

[Robbi]

Curry woud have to favored to whip Hagler in 87 considering his lack of reflexes and punch. I give any of the leading contenders a damn good chance of beating that shell. Even Herol Graham.

The shell which beat Leonard?. I'll tell you, Leonard must be a very poor fighter if you had Hagler beating him.

Just for the record, I thought Hagler fought poorly. I'll never forget the moment he had Leonard on the ropes during the 9th and his handspeed was extremely slow. Missing punches on an open target sagging against the ropes. Hagler's timing wasn't quite the same either, even on a few occassions wide punches from the outside missed by a foot.

Hagler seldom varied his work, and his lack of imagination was apparent for all to see. Leonard must get credit for his smart strategy. He just outlanded Hagler and showed better defense.

It was laughable at the end of the fight when Hagler done that silly little dance with his arms raised, showing himself to be jubilant. He even put his glove out to a member of his team to say "gimme five". You could see his delight was clearly fake in every way possible.

[brownpimp88]

Ray Leonard's wife even thought hagler won the fight.

[redrooster]

yes hagler was faking I agree. in fact he was living a nightmare having a good chance of going out a loser (he was retiring anyway) and knowing full well he'd have as much chance of getting a rematch with leonard as we have of President Bush pulling troops out of Iraq.

but that wasn't the real hagler while I have to say Leonard was still in his prime though inactive and very well prepared. I would compare the Hagler of 1987 with the 1976 version of ALi-very sluggish, terrible timing, and too slow to bother blocking punches. Ali lost that fight. From that point on Ali was really losing most of his fights to Shavers and Norton followed by Spinks. And Marvin had become the same toothless fighter, a shadow really.

of course I knew already since I'm the only one who actually saw Hagler in preparation. but basically, this fight came off a few years too late because leonard was too chicken to take the fight before knowing he'd get hurt. he was much more confident knowing hagler couldn't hurt him after the first round. Then you could really see his confidence grow after that but had Ray gotten hurt early like he did in the Norris fight, you would have seen him fall apart and his confidence evaporate just as it had in rounds two and three of the Norris fight.

leonard was competitive for about two rounds with Norris but once leonard got hurt he couldn't do shit the rest of the fight. Norris fucked him up for good.

[Robbi]

Ray Leonard's wife even thought hagler won the fight.

I couldn't care if Leonard's grandfather thought Hagler won the fight.

[Robbi]

yes hagler was faking I agree. in fact he was living a nightmare having a good chance of going out a loser (he was retiring anyway) and knowing full well he'd have as much chance of getting a rematch with leonard as we have of President Bush pulling troops out of Iraq.

but that wasn't the real hagler while I have to say Leonard was still in his prime though inactive and very well prepared. I would compare the Hagler of 1987 with the 1976 version of ALi-very sluggish, terrible timing, and too slow to bother blocking punches. of course I knew already since I'm the only one who actually saw Hagler in preparation. but basically, this fight came off a few years too late because leonard was too chicken to take the fight before knowing he'd get hurt. he was much more confident knowing hagler couldn't hurt him after the first round. Then you could really see his confidence grow after that but had Ray gotten hurt early like he did in the Norris fight, you would have seen him fall apart and his confidence evaporate just as it had in rounds two and three of the Norris fight.

leonard was competitive for about two rounds with Norris but once leonard got hurt he couldn't do shit the rest of the fight. Norris fucked him up for good.

Leonard never chickened out. I think you could make an equal case for Hagler doing the same.

Leonard was a natural welterweight, and Hagler a natural middleweight. Even though Leonard had previously fought at 154lbs, it was not a weight he felt entirely comfortable. However, he did offer to meet Hagler halfway between welterweight and middleweight. Hagler declined.

If Hagler wanted Leonard as badly as he made out, then he would have dropped an extra 4-5 pounds. But Hagler's case must be taken on board, as he reckons coming down so much would have weakened him.

Leonard was looking to muster as much speed as possible when meeting Hagler, and obviously natural strength was Hagler's meal ticket. So for Leonard to move all the way up to middleweight, advantage Hagler. And for Hagler to come down as low as Jr-middleweight, advantage Leonard.

In my unbiased opinion, checkmate.

[redrooster]

Leonard never chickened out. I think you could make an equal case for Hagler doing the same.

Leonard was a natural welterweight, and Hagler a natural middleweight. Even though Leonard had previously fought at 154lbs, it was not a weight he felt entirely comfortable. However, he did offer to meet Hagler halfway between welterweight and middleweight. Hagler declined.

If Hagler wanted Leonard as badly as he made out, then he would have dropped an extra 4-5 pounds. But Hagler's case must be taken on board, as he reckons coming down so much would have weakened him.

Leonard was looking to muster as much speed as possible when meeting Hagler, and obviously natural strength was Hagler's meal ticket. So for Leonard to move all the way up to middleweight, advantage Hagler. And for Hagler to come down as low as Jr-middleweight, advantage Leonard.

why would Hagler be afraid of leonard? I can understand someone like Dave Green having butterflies but not a fighter like Hagler who tamed much better fighters like Sibson, Obel, Hearns, and Hamsho.

No one, especially another black man, is going to be afraid of Leonard (ask Terry Norris) much less Hagler.

[redrooster]

:lol: That's funny. Leonard, a threat to the middleweights. Couldn't even defend his title middleweight once giving another phony excuse why he can't fight post Hagler then when he gets in his first real fight gets tamed by Norris and flattened by Camacho when he's supposed to beat both with ease.

[brownpimp88]

Ray leonard was the favourite against norris and he was in the ring's pound for pound rankings in 1990.

[redrooster]

I told you I don't believe none of that shit whether it come from Pryor or Leonard. None of their excuses are believable.

The only person who had a legitimate excuse to retire was Ali because he had his title stripped. Ali was a warrior. you don't see no fake excuses why he can't fight someone, why he won't give someone a rematch.

Joe Frazier said whoever won't give another man a rematch when he deserves one should feel ashamed but leonard don't feel ashamed because he's a little chicken shit like i FIGURED FROM THE START who really can't fight when he's hurt. The beating he took by Norris was long overdue and it happend all because he picked a fight with the wrong man. That's leonard for you. you can't get a fight with him unless he gives you permission to fight him and then tells you don't dare turn it down its too much money.

But Ali wasn't like that no way. Ali was too much man for leonard that's why he rushed into a fight with Frazier. That was crazy for any other man - taking on Joe Frazier in his prime but not Ali who couldn't wait to get Joe back in the ring and would have excpet Joe turned down 3.2 mil in '73 and got trounced by George instead for .8 mil.

Ali was the greatest like Hagler, like Robinson, like Roy Jones, Benny Leonard, Pep. Ray Leonard couldn't carry their jock straps.

[Robbi]

Leonard wasn't in his prime when he fought Hagler. Both were past their best, no question.

Hagler came to the end of the road, especially after the gruelling affairs with Hearns and Mugabi. He even admitted after the Mugabi fight that his body wasn't the same, and retirement was not far away.

Leonard had one fight in 5 years, and his showing against Howard was evidence of a fighter who had seen better days. He was also moving up to middleweight, where he had never been before. No fighter is as effective after one fight in 5 years, especially moving up two weights. Leonard just fought superbly while past his prime.

[Robbi]

why would Hagler be afraid of leonard? I can understand someone like Dave Green having butterflies but not a fighter like Hagler who tamed much better fighters like Sibson, Obel, Hearns, and Hamsho.

No one, especially another black man, is going to be afraid of Leonard (ask Terry Norris) much less Hagler.

Who said Hagler was afraid of Leonard?. Your clearly putting words into my mouth. Maybe because you happen to disagree with my unbiased view on the situation.

Hagler's case was that he could not come down to 154lbs as he feels he would have weakened himself. Fair enough.

[redrooster]

He was supposed to beat Camacho at 40 years of age after a 6 year layoff? :patsch

according to all the dopes like Jon Saraceno and Sean O'Grady, yes. Me? I'm not that stupid. I picked Norris and Hector to run over his goddamned ass. :smoke

[redrooster]

See? There he is in my avatar cowering in a corner from Mr. Norris himself.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Ray Leonard's wife even thought hagler won the fight.



Yeah, but the fight she was talking about was Marv vs Bertha Hagler.

[TBooze]

Yeah, but the fight she was talking about was Marv vs Bertha Hagler.

No, the bloke always gets battered by the ex.;)

[Robbi]

according to all the dopes like Jon Saraceno and Sean O'Grady, yes. Me? I'm not that stupid. I picked Norris and Hector to run over his goddamned ass. :smoke

Rooster. Your views towards Leonard are biased beyond belief. Your points are not constructed fairly. You should have a good look in the mirror.

I do like Hagler and Leonard as fighters.

However, Ive never taken to Leonard. Mainly because he won two titles from two different divisions in one fight. Last time I knew, to do such a thing you need to compete in two seperate fights.

Leonard is not a legitimate 5 weight world champion. And what confuses me, how others can't see it the same way.

Only one fighter has won titles in 5 different weight divisions in boxing history, Floyd Mayweather. I do concede, not linear.

De La Hoya and Hearns can also be counted in if you take into account their WBO titles at super-feathweight and super-middleweight.

[redrooster]

Rooster. Your views towards Leonard are biased beyond belief. Your points are not constructed fairly. You should have a good look in the mirror.

I do like Hagler and Leonard as fighters.

However, Ive never taken to Leonard. Mainly because he won two titles from two different divisions in one fight. Last time I knew, to do such a thing you need to compete in two seperate fights.

Leonard is not a legitimate 5 weight world champion. And what confuses me, how others can't see it the same way.

Only one fighter has won titles in 5 different weight divisions in boxing history, Floyd Mayweather. I do concede, not linear.

De La Hoya and Hearns can also be counted in if you take into account their WBO titles at super-feathweight and super-middleweight.

Sorry Robbi but if Leonard didn't have so many self induced layoffs which he calls retirements, I'd be more lenient but since no one else comes close to pulling these kind of stunts, you have to say that Ray Leonard wouldn't have resorted to it unless he had to. that's why I say he's overrated. And the Norris fight verifies it.

The five time champion bit is comical to say the least. To put it kindly, out of the question and makes me want to gag when I hear or see the label five time champion attatched to his name. Two time really. 3 time champion is questionable so if you really like leonard you can call him 3 time champion but a conservative but honest view is that Ray Leonard is really a two division champion.

[Robbi]

Sorry Robbi but if Leonard didn't have so many self induced layoffs which he calls retirements, I'd be more lenient but since no one else comes close to pulling these kind of stunts, you have to say that Ray Leonard wouldn't have resorted to it unless he had to. that's why I say he's overrated. And the Norris fight verifies it.

The five time champion bit is comical to say the least. To put it kindly, out of the question and makes me want to gag when I hear or see the label five time champion attatched to his name. Two time really. 3 time champion is questionable so if you really like leonard you can call him 3 time champion but a conservative but honest view is that Ray Leonard is really a two division champion.

Emmmmm.

Welterweight Benitez.

Jr middleweight Kalule

Lalonde super-middleweight or light-heavyweight. One or the other, as can't count both.

Then the Hagler decision, lets say you dispute this.

Thats 3 in your opinion.

[RoccoMarciano]

At 140 he was one of the best, and would hold his own with Tszu, Whitaker,Duran...he may lose to Duran but he would go down on his sheild
:good

[RoccoMarciano]

Ray Leonard's wife even thought hagler won the fight.

A very accurate observation on his wife's part! :cool:

[JohnThomas1]

It was laughable at the end of the fight when Hagler done that silly little dance with his arms raised, showing himself to be jubilant. He even put his glove out to a member of his team to say "gimme five". You could see his delight was clearly fake in every way possible.

That was one of the wierdest things i have ever seen in a boxing ring, especially considering who it was. Just goes to show how much Leonard had got in his head.

[JohnThomas1]

but that wasn't the real hagler

Yeah but it was the real Leonard vs Norris and Camacho :lol:

And it wasn't the real Camacho vs Haugen i remember you saying as well :rofl


of course I knew already since I'm the only one who actually saw Hagler in preparation.

So there was just you, BIG Marv and the Weaver triplets in the gym, right? :lol:

leonard was competitive for about two rounds with Norris but once leonard got hurt he couldn't do shit the rest of the fight. Norris fucked him up for good.

Poor guy was looking for his cane after two rounds! :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

:lol: That's funny. Leonard, a threat to the middleweights. Couldn't even defend his title middleweight once giving another phony excuse why he can't fight post Hagler then when he gets in his first real fight gets tamed by Norris and flattened by Camacho when he's supposed to beat both with ease.

Beat the second best Middleweight (achievement) in history tho.

:good

[JohnThomas1]

The only person who had a legitimate excuse to retire was Ali because he had his title stripped. Ali was a warrior. you don't see no fake excuses why he can't fight someone, why he won't give someone a rematch.


Foreman might beg too differ

:good

[JohnThomas1]

Yeah, but the fight she was talking about was Marv vs Bertha Hagler.

From all accounts Marv won that one via TKO

[RoccoMarciano]

From all accounts Marv won that one via TKO

Come on, JT :lol:

[RoccoMarciano]

Beat the second best Middleweight (achievement) in history tho.

:good

I'm assuming that would be Hagler (only one ass though) :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

Come on, JT :lol:

Well wasn't he charged for it? lol

[redrooster]

Beat the second best Middleweight (achievement) in history tho.

:good

whatever you say jo-jo