How would you rate the Middleweight top ten?

[Vincent Gottschalk]

Here's mine

Champ
Kelly Pavlik
# 1 Arthur Abraham
# 2 Winky Wright
# 3 Giovanni Lorenzo
# 4 Jermain Taylor
# 5 Felix Sturm
# 6 John Duddy
# 7 Segio Mora
# 8 Mariano Carrera
# 9 Randy Griffin
# 10 Sebastain Syvester

Whats yours?

[brooklyn1550]

Champion: Kelly Pavlik
1. Arthur Abraham
2. Jermain Taylor
3. Winky Wright
4. Felix Sturm
5. Sebastian Sylvester
6. John Duddy
7. Roman Karmazin
8. Kassim Ouma
9. Mariano Carrera
10. Khoren Gevor

Something like that

[perfume]

Champion: Vacant
1. Arthur Abraham
2. Felix Sturm
3. Kelly Pavlik
4. Jermain Taylor
5. Winky Wright
6. Any Lee
7. Giovanno Lorenzo
8. Sebastian Sylester
9. Khoren Gevor
10. Randy Griffin

[booradley]

Here's mine

Champ
Kelly Pavlik
# 1 Arthur Abraham
# 2 Winky Wright
# 3 Giovanni Lorenzo
# 4 Jermain Taylor
# 5 Felix Sturm
# 6 John Duddy
# 7 Segio Mora
# 8 Mariano Carrera
# 9 Randy Griffin
# 10 Sebastain Syvester

Whats yours?

Who the hell did Mora fight to get on that list? He hasn't fought one single gatekeeper; not McKart, not Zertuche, not Zuniga, NOBODY. His biggest wins have been over Eric Regan and Archack Termiliksetian. I am personally convinced Regan threw the fight, and the tko against Archack was BOGUS. Mora is not top 30, let alone top ten.:dead

Boo

[brooklyn1550]

Why is Lorenzo so high? And above Taylor for that matter?

[drvooh]

Champion: Kelly Pavlik
1. Arthur Abraham
2. Jermain Taylor
3. Winky Wright
4. Felix Sturm
5. Sebastian Sylvester
6. John Duddy
7. Roman Karmazin
8. Kassim Ouma
9. Mariano Carrera
10. Khoren Gevor

Something like that YUP :good

[gambleer]

Who the hell did Mora fight to get on that list? He hasn't fought one single gatekeeper; not McKart, not Zertuche, not Zuniga, NOBODY. His biggest wins have been over Eric Regan and Archack Termiliksetian. I am personally convinced Regan threw the fight, and the tko against Archack was BOGUS. Mora is not top 30, let alone top ten.:dead

Boo

1-Mora biggests win are over Manfredo(twice;one "controversial":D ), Ishe Smith and Eric Regan.

2-Mora scholled Regan and tko against Archack was bad, but Mora won 6 of the 7 rounds in that fight.

3-Smith and Manfredo are better than Zertuche and Zuniga, IMO.

4-Mora might not be top ten but he is a top 15.

5-Why do hate Mora so much ?

[Kostya Zoo]

Champion: Vacant
1. Arthur Abraham
2. Felix Sturm
3. Kelly Pavlik
4. Jermain Taylor
5. Winky Wright
6. Any Lee
7. Giovanno Lorenzo
8. Sebastian Sylester
9. Khoren Gevor
10. Randy Griffin

this is really really bad.

[brooklyn1550]

Champion: Vacant
1. Arthur Abraham
2. Felix Sturm
3. Kelly Pavlik
4. Jermain Taylor
5. Winky Wright
6. Any Lee
7. Giovanno Lorenzo
8. Sebastian Sylester
9. Khoren Gevor
10. Randy Griffin

Great list...

Pavlik hasn't beaten the fighters that Felix Sturm has and Abraham's resume blows Pavlik's away. And Andy Lee has accomplished a lot already.

[sues2nd]

Even easier for ya....

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[gambleer]

Champion: Kelly Pavlik
1-Winky Wright : Drew with Taylor in a fight many tought Winky won, bet Quartey, who is still a good fighter(was robbed against Forrest), and lost a close fight against B-Hop at 170.
2-Arthur Abraham : Controversial win over Miranda and decent KOs wins over Demers and Gevor.
3-Jermain Taylor: Controversial decisions over Hopkins, controversial draw against Winky, and boring wins over Ouma and Spinks, much smaller guys.
4-Felix Sturm: The weakest champion. KOed by Castillejo, but won the rematch and had a decent win over Alcoba.
5-Roman Karmazin: Bet Ouma and lost a controversial decision to Spinks. I don't know if he will stay at MW.
6-Mariano Carrera: Good fighter, can win a title in this division.
7-Javier Castillejo: I think the KO victory over Sturm was his big last win, but lets see the rematch against Carrera.
8-Sebastian Sylvester: Good win over Asikainen.
9-Amin Asikainen: Lost to Sylvester, but I think he still deserves top 10
10-Sergio Mora: Decent wins over Manfredo, Ishe Smith and Eric Regan.

I didn't include Miranda and Ouma because they are not in the MW division anymore.
I think people are overrating Duddy. His best win was a very close decision over Campas, who is very shot and barely bet the limited WW Bravo.

[Dorfmeister]

Champ
Kelly Pavlik
#1 Arthur Abraham
#2 Jermain Taylor
#3 Felix Sturm
#4 Sebastian Sylvester
#5 Amin Asikainen
#6 Winky Wright
#7 Edison Miranda
#8 Sebastian Zbik
#9 Kassim Ouma
#10 John Duddy

[Rumsfeld]

Champion: Kelly Pavlik
1. Arthur Abraham
2. Jermain Taylor
3. Winky Wright
4. Felix Sturm
5. Sebastian Sylvester
6. John Duddy
7. Roman Karmazin
8. Kassim Ouma
9. Mariano Carrera
10. Khoren Gevor

Something like that

That's a damn fine list!

:good

[Vincent Gottschalk]

I think Lorenzo should rated over Taylor at this point based on his talent, I think he is more powerful then Taylor plus Taylor is coming off a loss by KO.
I think both Duddy and Mora would out work Carrera and Griffin and Duddy stop Sylvester who been stopped before while Mora would out point Sebastain.:deal

[Brickhaus]

I need to think more in depth, so this won't necessarily be my final ranking before next month, but here's my current thoughts...

C: Kelly Pavlik
1. Arthur Abraham
2. Winky Wright
3. Jermain Taylor
4. Felix Sturm
5. Sebastian Sylvester
6. Edison Miranda
7. Roman Karmazin
8. Khoren Gevor
9. Raymond Joval
10. Kassim Ouma

Unranked: Spinks - for now, I still have him at 154. Would otherwise be 4.

Ouma is fairly low as I'm not convinced he can hack it at 160. He looked relatively lethargic against Taylor with his extra weight, and he's just not that great of a boxer if he's not throwing 100 punches a round.

I haven't seen Asikainen enough to really rate him will, but outside of TKOing Sylvester when he was behind on the cards, his resume just isn't impressive at all.

I was surprised I had Joval rated this high, but he did look very good his last couple fights against quality opponents.

Mora, Duddy, Lorenzo, Lee and Greene don't belong near a top 10 list until they face a decent fighter, and Duddy's matchup with Campas (together with Campas' subsequent fights) showed me definitively that he's nowhere near the top 10 yet. Frankly, of those 5, the only ones I think will ever be legitimate top 10 fighters are Lee and Greene. Mora, Duddy and Lorenzo all look too limited to me, unless they can prove me wrong by beating a quality opponent. I do think Lee is the future of this division, but he needs to fight some real opponents. KOing Eastman, who had lost his last 5 fights and who was a B level fighter even in his prime doesn't really count as an impressive victory, other than the way he won the fight.

Other than a flukish KO, Castellejo seems fairly shot.

Carrera isn't there for three reasons. First, I'm not impressed with his victory over a shot Castellejo. Second, I don't want to reward someone for their result in a fight where he flunked a post-fight drug test. Third, he has a recent bad loss and no really solid wins.

[kg0208]

I think Lorenzo should rated over Taylor at this point based on his talent, I think he is more powerful then Taylor plus Taylor is coming off a loss by KO.
I think both Duddy and Mora would out work Carrera and Griffin and Duddy stop Sylvester who been stopped before while Mora would out point Sebastain.:deal

Why don't you let Lorenzo actually fight someone with a pulse before judging his talent.

[booradley]

Mora's wins against Ishe Smith and Peter Manfredo were short fights. Give either man 10 rounds and Mora gets KTFO. In Contender Season one I was actually rooting for this asshole, but seeing what he has turned into disgusts me. At present I do not think he belongs anywhere near a top 10 list. One of my boxing fantasies is Mora vs the current NABF 160 pound champion Bronco McKart on ESPN, Verses, or an HBO undercard. Why? Because few things in boxing could make me happier than the whole world watching while a 36 year old junior middleweight WAY past his prime hands Mora his ass for 8 or 9 rounds and then knocks him the fuck out. Zertuche, Zuniga, McKart, and a shitload of other guys who aren't even in the top 20 can beat Mora convincingly. Anybody in the top ten takes Mora out in the early rounds. My opinion will not change until I see him actually fight somebody who matters.

Boo

[Tom_Tocca]

Let Duddy fight Sylvester on neutral turf and Sylvester outpoints him to a solid UD.

Mora vs. Sylvester would be a good fight as I think that both guys have a similar style of fighting...

[Dorfmeister]

What the hell is Duddy doing in there? He'd take a beating form every single person on that list.

John Duddy is not untested but he may need to summon up all that he has and what he should have to compete with Kelly if he is to take that fight right away... I believe that in his best chances, he can get a very good result from whatever other top middle can give present him with, and that refers again to: Arthur Abraham, Jermain Taylor, Felix Sturm, Sebastian Sylvester, Amin Asikainen, Winky Wright, Edison Miranda, Sebastian Zbik, Kassim Ouma. And that is not definitely a biased opinion...

[Odo]

I need to think more in depth, so this won't necessarily be my final ranking before next month, but here's my current thoughts...

C: Kelly Pavlik
1. Arthur Abraham
2. Winky Wright
3. Jermain Taylor
4. Felix Sturm
5. Sebastian Sylvester
6. Edison Miranda
7. Roman Karmazin
8. Khoren Gevor
9. Raymond Joval
10. Kassim Ouma

Unranked: Spinks - for now, I still have him at 154. Would otherwise be 4.

Ouma is fairly low as I'm not convinced he can hack it at 160. He looked relatively lethargic against Taylor with his extra weight, and he's just not that great of a boxer if he's not throwing 100 punches a round.

I haven't seen Asikainen enough to really rate him will, but outside of TKOing Sylvester when he was behind on the cards, his resume just isn't impressive at all.

I was surprised I had Joval rated this high, but he did look very good his last couple fights against quality opponents.

Mora, Duddy, Lorenzo, Lee and Greene don't belong near a top 10 list until they face a decent fighter, and Duddy's matchup with Campas (together with Campas' subsequent fights) showed me definitively that he's nowhere near the top 10 yet. Frankly, of those 5, the only ones I think will ever be legitimate top 10 fighters are Lee and Greene. Mora, Duddy and Lorenzo all look too limited to me, unless they can prove me wrong by beating a quality opponent. I do think Lee is the future of this division, but he needs to fight some real opponents. KOing Eastman, who had lost his last 5 fights and who was a B level fighter even in his prime doesn't really count as an impressive victory, other than the way he won the fight.

Other than a flukish KO, Castellejo seems fairly shot.

Carrera isn't there for three reasons. First, I'm not impressed with his victory over a shot Castellejo. Second, I don't want to reward someone for their result in a fight where he flunked a post-fight drug test. Third, he has a recent bad loss and no really solid wins.


Good post and top ten!
I for my part would probably rank both Miranda and Karmazin ahead of Sylvester,but I am not trying to find the fly in the ointment,brickhaus!

As for Lee I also think that he is a talented and very decent fighter,but I dont think that he is future of this weight division.
Olympic silver medalist Golovkin has also turned pro,and he was head and shoulders over the Irishman at the amateurs.

[tpuz]

Great list...

Pavlik hasn't beaten the fighters that Felix Sturm has and Abraham's resume blows Pavlik's away. And Andy Lee has accomplished a lot already.I wonder where this idiot resides??

[tpuz]

Champ - Kelly Pavlik
1-Arthur Abraham
2-Jermain Taylor
3-Winky Wright
4-Felix Sturm
5-Edison Miranda
6-Mariano Carrera
7-Sebastian Sylvester
8-John Duddy
9-Javier Castillejo
10-Giovanni Lorenzo

[Odo]

I need to think more in depth, so this won't necessarily be my final ranking before next month, but here's my current thoughts...

C: Kelly Pavlik
1. Arthur Abraham
2. Winky Wright
3. Jermain Taylor
4. Felix Sturm
5. Sebastian Sylvester
6. Edison Miranda
7. Roman Karmazin
8. Khoren Gevor
9. Raymond Joval
10. Kassim Ouma

Unranked: Spinks - for now, I still have him at 154. Would otherwise be 4.

Ouma is fairly low as I'm not convinced he can hack it at 160. He looked relatively lethargic against Taylor with his extra weight, and he's just not that great of a boxer if he's not throwing 100 punches a round.

I haven't seen Asikainen enough to really rate him will, but outside of TKOing Sylvester when he was behind on the cards, his resume just isn't impressive at all.

I was surprised I had Joval rated this high, but he did look very good his last couple fights against quality opponents.

Mora, Duddy, Lorenzo, Lee and Greene don't belong near a top 10 list until they face a decent fighter, and Duddy's matchup with Campas (together with Campas' subsequent fights) showed me definitively that he's nowhere near the top 10 yet. Frankly, of those 5, the only ones I think will ever be legitimate top 10 fighters are Lee and Greene. Mora, Duddy and Lorenzo all look too limited to me, unless they can prove me wrong by beating a quality opponent. I do think Lee is the future of this division, but he needs to fight some real opponents. KOing Eastman, who had lost his last 5 fights and who was a B level fighter even in his prime doesn't really count as an impressive victory, other than the way he won the fight.

Other than a flukish KO, Castellejo seems fairly shot.

Carrera isn't there for three reasons. First, I'm not impressed with his victory over a shot Castellejo. Second, I don't want to reward someone for their result in a fight where he flunked a post-fight drug test. Third, he has a recent bad loss and no really solid wins.


By the way I for my part was quite impressed with Carrera 's victory over Castillejo! The tough Argie looked much better than Sturm against the old Spanish vet!
Drug test? Nothing is really known about the result of that controversial test!

I guess that Sturm will sooner or later face Carrera in the ring.I will bet my money on the Argie if that fight really comes off!

[VHB]

C : Kelly Pavlik (Well deserved. Perfect record crowned through Taylor.) :fire
1 : Jermain Taylor (Great record still, and we saw he can beat Pavlik.) :!:
2 : Arthur Abraham (Fights in spurts. Untested maybe. Tough as a mule.) :hey
3 : Felix Sturm (No power or heart, but lots of skills. Beats most by UD.) :blurp
4 : Winky Wright (Barely MW anymore, but I guess he should be here.) :smoke
5 : Amin Asikainen (Better than proven so far. WC if he fights with plan.) :bbb
6 : Sebastian Sylvester (Difficult to fight. Great jab. Not too brave.) :bart
7 : Javier Castillejo (Could still beat anyone on his day, but old and shot.) :blood
8 : Mariano Carrera (Wins by drugs don´t count...) :rasta
9 : Khoren Gevor (EBU Champion level. Proved himself in last fight.) :nut
10: Wayne Elcock (Win over Eastman is more than Mora or Duddy has.) :cool:

If it would be top 15:

11: Gary Lockett (Good win streak and potential.) :huh
12: Randy Griffin (Bit of a mystery, but surely will give Sturm a fight.) :smooch
13: Raymond Joval (He somehow doesn´t "participate". Fringe contender.) :nono
14: Mahir Oral (Euro top gun. Good wins compared to hyped no-winners.) :yikes
15: Paul Smith (Beat Banks who beat Ayala who drew with Mora.) :deal

Ouma is LMW. :-(
Karmazin isn´t true MW yet. :rofl
Miranda is SMW. :(
I don´t think even god knows what is Lorenzo´s weight class? :|
Duddy has no WINS yet,he´s 21-0 thanks to random opposition. :tired
Mora has done nothing to be in top10. :-((

[gambleer]

Mora's wins against Ishe Smith and Peter Manfredo were short fights. Give either man 10 rounds and Mora gets KTFO. In Contender Season one I was actually rooting for this asshole, but seeing what he has turned into disgusts me. At present I do not think he belongs anywhere near a top 10 list. One of my boxing fantasies is Mora vs the current NABF 160 pound champion Bronco McKart on ESPN, Verses, or an HBO undercard. Why? Because few things in boxing could make me happier than the whole world watching while a 36 year old junior middleweight WAY past his prime hands Mora his ass for 8 or 9 rounds and then knocks him the fuck out. Zertuche, Zuniga, McKart, and a shitload of other guys who aren't even in the top 20 can beat Mora convincingly. Anybody in the top ten takes Mora out in the early rounds. My opinion will not change until I see him actually fight somebody who matters.

Boo

:patsch
From what I remember, Manfredo was the one on the way to get KTFO by Mora in the first fight. Take a look in the 7th (final round).
Manfredo won the rematch, but Mora started to rally in the 5th and did better in the second half of the fight.
The same happened in the Ayala fight, Mora took 4 rounds to begin his gameplan.
It seems pretty clear that Mora is a low-starter fighter and would do better in 12 rounds fights.

[brooklyn1550]

I wonder where this idiot resides??

Detroit and it's called sarcasm:hi:

[Odo]

C : Kelly Pavlik (Well deserved. Perfect record crowned through Taylor.) :fire
1 : Jermain Taylor (Great record still, and we saw he can beat Pavlik.) :!:
2 : Arthur Abraham (Fights in spurts. Untested maybe. Tough as a mule.) :hey
3 : Felix Sturm (No power or heart, but lots of skills. Beats most by UD.) :blurp
4 : Winky Wright (Barely MW anymore, but I guess he should be here.) :smoke
5 : Amin Asikainen (Better than proven so far. WC if he fights with plan.) :bbb
6 : Sebastian Sylvester (Difficult to fight. Great jab. Not too brave.) :bart
7 : Javier Castillejo (Could still beat anyone on his day, but old and shot.) :blood
8 : Mariano Carrera (Wins by drugs don´t count...) :rasta
9 : Khoren Gevor (EBU Champion level. Proved himself in last fight.) :nut
10: Wayne Elcock (Win over Eastman is more than Mora or Duddy has.) :cool:

If it would be top 15:

11: Gary Lockett (Good win streak and potential.) :huh
12: Randy Griffin (Bit of a mystery, but surely will give Sturm a fight.) :smooch
13: Raymond Joval (He somehow doesn´t "participate". Fringe contender.) :nono
14: Mahir Oral (Euro top gun. Good wins compared to hyped no-winners.) :yikes
15: Paul Smith (Beat Banks who beat Ayala who drew with Mora.) :deal

Ouma is LMW. :-(
Karmazin isn´t true MW yet. :rofl
Miranda is SMW. :(
I don´t think even god knows what is Lorenzo´s weight class? :|
Duddy has no WINS yet,he´s 21-0 thanks to random opposition. :tired
Mora has done nothing to be in top10. :-((

Asikainen ahed of Sylvester? I am not sold on Sylvester at all,but didnt he knock the fighter from Finnland out in one of his last fights?
And why on earth do you rate Asikainen higher than Gevor?

[VHB]

1. Asikainen and Sylvester are 1-1 in wins. But Asikainen´s win didn´t came via neck punch. It´s about as valuable as Carrera´s win over Castillejo while being on drugs. If Sylvester beats him again, I promise to rank him ahead... if he really beats him that is.

2. Asikainen has beaten Sylvester and IMO should do so again. Gevor´s greatest merit is a fight he lost by brutal KO. :lol: And his punches had nothing in them. STILL he´s in top10. Imagine.