Wilfredo Gomez

[Holmes' Jab]

Below is an interesting article written by boxing correspondent Jim Amato regarding the career of the great Puerto Rican featherweight:


Who is the greatest 122-pound fighter off all time? This one is a no brainer. The answer is the incomparable Wilfredo Gomez. His accomplishments at this weight are truly awesome. He was the complete package of speed, coordination, balance and power. The Puerto Rican had it all. Other than a tendency to swell around the eyes, he truly was an almost flawless fighter in his prime.

The crowning achievements of his career was probably his knockout of bantamweight champion, Lupe Pintor. Lupe had won the bantamweight crown from Zarate via a very controversial decision. Pintor would establish himself as a fine champion. In moving up to challenge Gomez, Lupe fought the fight of his life. Wilfredo would prevail, but those who saw the fight will never forget it.

Gomez in turn would suffer the same fate as Zarate and Pintor when he tried unsuccessfully to move up and win the featherweight title. His match with champion Salvador Sanchez was a much anticipated super fight with Gomez given a good chance to win. In a true shocker Sanchez gave Wilfredo a one sided beating.

Gomez would eventually win the featherweight championship after Salvador’s untimely death. He was matched with fellow countryman Juan La Porte for the vacant title. Wilfredo pitched a near shutout to capture the crown. An aging Gomez would lose the title to the great Azumah Nelson. Unbelievably he would move up to 130 pounds and win that title from Rocky Lockridge by a decision more debatable than the Pintor-Zarate verdict. Wilfredo would lose that title to the forgettable Alfredo Layne.

Although Gomez can claim to be a champion in three different weight divisions, it was his dominance at 122 that will be remembered the most.




*What are you thoughts and how high would you personally rate Gomez at FW?

[Longhhorn71]

Gomez was great at 122..but got a couple of gift decisons later.

Wonder how Pacman would fair against Gomez....being Gomez did get hit a lot and Pacman with his southpaw stance can really crack?

[Axl_Nose]

Gomez was great at 122..but got a couple of gift decisons later.

Wonder how Pacman would fair against Gomez....being Gomez did get hit a lot and Pacman with his southpaw stance can really crack?

Pac isnt in the same league as an all time great like Gomez, i personally think that Gomez would school Manny Pac in the same way as an ageing Morales and a technically superior Marquez have already done , Manny is a very exciting fighter but is seriously flawed when you match him with the best history has to offer .... I think Pintor would hand a beating to Pac too because against these guys you need to have boxing skills and technique, wild punching and comeing forward in straight lines like Pac often does is only gonna get you so far .. He has beaten an ageing Morales and Barerra, in my opinion he got beat clearly by Marquez and if he went in with Guzman then he'd get beat again .. Gomez is on a different level than pac

[Drew101]

Gomez was great at 122..but got a couple of gift decisons later.

Wonder how Pacman would fair against Gomez....being Gomez did get hit a lot and Pacman with his southpaw stance can really crack?

Actually, Bazooka's defensive ability was underrated. When he chose to box, he was extremely difficult to hit. Even when he slugged, it was tough to catch him with any more than one, or possibly two punches in a four or five punch volley.

I think that's the difference, since he'd be boxing against the always agressive, and defensively flawed Pacquiao. Pac has his moments, but gets picked apart, and stopped in the middle rounds.

[Longhhorn71]

Sal Sanchez vs Wilfredo Gomez.

The rematch never took place because Sanchez died...it would
have been exciting:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[brownpimp88]

I think fighters like gomez and zarate are overrated, they both have thin resumes.

[Luigi1985]

I think fighters like gomez and zarate are overrated, they both have thin resumes.


:lol:

[brownpimp88]

:lol:
They do, its true. Carlos zarate has beat 8 contenders his whole life and he gets ranked above trinidad, which is a joke. Gomez got a complete gift against lockridge and he only beat like 5 or 6 world champs.

[RafaelGonzal]

Go get a Gomez CD VIEW THE MANS SIKLL no one has has ever dominated that divison since or ever the way he did. Gomez could box jab throw combos and move and the punching power speaks for itself there is a reason why no one has come close to what he did at that division. One of th greats and the heart of a Lion a Bonafide Warrior, always exciing to watch go see the Pintor Fight.......

[brownpimp88]

Go get a Gomez CD VIEW THE MANS SIKLL no one has has ever dominated that divison since or ever the way he did. Gomez could box jab throw combos and move and the punching power speaks for itself there is a reason why no one has come close to what he did at that division. One of th greats and the heart of a Lion a Bonafide Warrior, always exciing to watch go see the Pintor Fight.......
since when was 122 an important division?

[Drew101]

since when was 122 an important division?

Since Gomez made it important.:D

Gomez defeated quite a few good fighters,coming up and during during his reign.

Alberto Davila (future bantamweight titleholder)
Royal Kobayahsi (former 122lb titleholder)
Leo Cruz(future 122lb titleholder)
Juan Meza (future 122lb titleholder)
Juan Laporte (126 titleholder)
Carlos Zarate (atg bantamweight champion)
Lupe Pintor (excellent bantamweight champion)


And, some of the contenders that he defeated:

Nico Perez (once beaten at that point, and highly regarded at that point in his career).

Roberto Rubaldino, Nestor Jiminez,Juan Antonio Lopez and Ruben Valedez (perrenial contenders at 122lbs)

Eddie Ndwuku (undefeated Top 10 featherweight contender)

Derrick Holmes (undefeated contender).

And, here's the thing...they were all knocked out. With the exception of Pintor...they were all more or less dominated, too.

If you think that Ricardo Lopez is a great fighter (and you should), then Gomez also must be considered a great fighter as well. They single handedly made their resepective divisions relevant, and they did so with style.

That's why they're great. Period.

[brownpimp88]

Since Gomez made it important.:D

Gomez defeated quite a few good fighters,coming up and during during his reign.

Alberto Davila (future bantamweight titleholder)
Royal Kobayahsi (former 122lb titleholder)
Leo Cruz(future 122lb titleholder)
Juan Meza (future 122lb titleholder)
Juan Laporte (126 titleholder)
Carlos Zarate (atg bantamweight champion)
Lupe Pintor (excellent bantamweight champion)


And, some of the contenders that he defeated:

Nico Perez (once beaten at that point, and highly regarded at that point in his career).

Roberto Rubaldino, Nestor Jiminez,Juan Antonio Lopez and Ruben Valedez (perrenial contenders at 122lbs)

Eddie Ndwuku (undefeated Top 10 featherweight contender)

Derrick Holmes (undefeated contender).

And, here's the thing...they were all knocked out. With the exception of Pintor...they were all more or less dominated, too.

If you think that Ricardo Lopez is a great fighter (and you should), then Gomez also must be considered a great fighter as well. They single handedly made their resepective divisions relevant, and they did so with style.

That's why they're great. Period.
Compare that to a resume of oscar de la hoya or felix trinidad and he really doesnt compare. Yet many people think hes greater than both of them, again its simply a bias.

[Thread Stealer]

Above 122, I'd favor Pacquiao over Gomez.

122 is a different story.

Pacquiao will probably go down as the greater fighter historically, however.

[JohnThomas1]

Compare that to a resume of oscar de la hoya or felix trinidad and he really doesnt compare. Yet many people think hes greater than both of them, again its simply a bias.

Whether you like the division or not Gomez decimated it in brutal fashion for many years and defenses. He beat two great fighters moving up as well. Trinidad never dominated any division as Gomez did. Whilst Gomez was dominating top fighters moving up Trinidad didn't even beat DLH in reality. As for Zarate his record speaks for itself for those in the know. A guy like Davila was a damn good fighter and Zarate beat him brilliantly, knowledge of the era tells us Zarate was one of the greatest ever, not to mention Gomez. Jesus, simply watch them.

[red cobra]

I believe that the Wilfredo Gomez of circa 1977-78 was the real deal if there ever was one. He was the complete, total package. Refer to the masterful dismantling and destruction of Carlos Zarate in '78. I saw that back then as a tape from the night before, and I was amazed. No one was supposed to do that to the great Zarate. He had it all back then. He would totally outclass today's fighters, and only Barrera would finish on his feet and survive to a decision. I say that as a BIG MAB fan. Gomez was like something from outer space. It was almost unfair for those guys who fought him. He was that good. You name the guy today, Gomez would have in most cases slaughtered him, Morales, even Pacman. At 122, and for a record reign of title defenses, Gomez was an outer space type invader who would be a nightmare for anyone today.

[Luigi1985]

I believe that the Wilfredo Gomez of circa 1977-78 was the real deal if there ever was one. He was the complete, total package. Refer to the masterful dismantling and destruction of Carlos Zarate in '78. I saw that back then as a tape from the night before, and I was amazed. No one was supposed to do that to the great Zarate. He had it all back then. He would totally outclass today's fighters, and only Barrera would finish on his feet and survive to a decision. I say that as a BIG MAB fan. Gomez was like something from outer space. It was almost unfair for those guys who fought him. He was that good. You name the guy today, Gomez would have in most cases slaughtered him, Morales, even Pacman. At 122, and for a record reign of title defenses, Gomez was an outer space type invader who would be a nightmare for anyone today.


Well spoken, head-to-head at 122 lbs there wouldn´t be that many fighters IMO who would trouble him...

[red cobra]

Gomez would have slaughtered these guys today AND would have enjoyed doing it!

[red cobra]

Go get a Gomez CD VIEW THE MANS SIKLL no one has has ever dominated that divison since or ever the way he did. Gomez could box jab throw combos and move and the punching power speaks for itself there is a reason why no one has come close to what he did at that division. One of th greats and the heart of a Lion a Bonafide Warrior, always exciing to watch go see the Pintor Fight.......
I agree. All you really have to do is see the Gomez-Zarate fight to be convinced. In many ways, Gomez was more coldly efficient than Duran as a killer, and he had great, great skills and cunning. He was not just a puncher. He didn't have Duran's longevity, or his ability to compete at higher weights, but at 122, and for a while at 127, he was supreme.

[sweet_scientist]

They do, its true. Carlos zarate has beat 8 contenders his whole life and he gets ranked above trinidad, which is a joke. Gomez got a complete gift against lockridge and he only beat like 5 or 6 world champs.

What do you define as a contender? Is a guy with a padded record like Larry Barnes, Hugo Pineda or Mamadou Thiam a contender? Is a shot to shit Camacho, Pendleton or Whitaker a contender?

As for Gomez only beating 5 or 6 world champs, I'm sure if they had an IBF belt floating around during his prime he would have beaten a couple more.

[brownpimp88]

What do you define as a contender? Is a guy with a padded record like Larry Barnes, Hugo Pineda or Mamadou Thiam a contender? Is a shot to shit Camacho, Pendleton or Whitaker a contender?

As for Gomez only beating 5 or 6 world champs, I'm sure if they had an IBF belt floating around during his prime he would have beaten a couple more.
Trindad's resume is better, you know it.

[sweet_scientist]

Trindad's resume is better, you know it.

Trinidad's resume may be better, but it is not so far superior so as to rule out people placing Zarate and Gomez ahead of him if they thought (as I do) that they both LOOKED better than Tito in their primes.

Just to take another example, Erik Morales probably has a better resume than Tito (especially if you don't grant Tito the DLH win), but I still place Tito higher on the basis that he looked better in his prime than Morales did.

[brownpimp88]

Trinidad's resume may be better, but it is not so far superior so as to rule out people placing Zarate and Gomez ahead of him if they thought (as I do) that they both LOOKED better than Tito in their primes.

Just to take another example, Erik Morales probably has a better resume than Tito (especially if you don't grant Tito the DLH win), but I still place Tito higher on the basis that he looked better in his prime than Morales did.
Carlos Zarate's record is heavily padded, yeah everyone looks great against the bums.

[Longhhorn71]

Well spoken, head-to-head at 122 lbs there wouldn´t be that many fighters IMO who would trouble him...

Here is some interesting info about Gomez - Zarate:

Zarate last defends Bantamweight Title on June 09, 1978.

Zarate beats Rudy Gonzalez ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) in an over the weight match on Sept. 30, 1978.

Thirty days later, for Gomez Superbantam title fight on 10/28/78,
both fighters were over 124lbs on first attempt at scales. Zarate had to make four trips to make 122lbs. (day of the fight I think)

Zarate gets TKO'ed in 5 rounds. Zarate looked dried out to me, but it is the fighters responsibility to be at weight.

The Zarate TKO reminded me of when Bobby Chacon had to lose a bunch of weight and was destroyed by Ruben Olivares.

Whether Zarate could have performed better in a rematch we will never know because he didn't ask for one.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Be sure to note Gomez hits Zarate when he is down on the canvas.

But Gomez gets his just returns via Mister Sanchez 3 years later.

[sweet_scientist]

Carlos Zarate's record is heavily padded, yeah everyone looks great against the bums.
Sure it has some filler, but so what, he did face some decent fighters and did perform exceptionally when he did face them.

He didn't look good against Gomez, but as Longhhorn points out in the previous post, Zarate was weight drained, and probably as a result of being sick and not being able to train properly to shed the pounds needed to make weight.

[Manassa]

Gomez of the late '70s looked like the best pound-for-pound - ever. His opponents at that time weren't much cop, but he stood out like a fat bird in the Playboy mansion. Except he was only little. Little, but not little enough to fit into the more historically rich 118lbs division, which is a shame. Wasn't big enough to fit into the 126lbs division either, so he was left to fill the ghostly 122lbs void which was, at that time, all but starved of talent. Gomez came and rescued it, and brilliantly so - gliding like Pep, hitting like Robinson and thinking like Duran, Gomez the Wizard imbued all the past powers of the greats and crafted his own offensively-defensive style that worked magnificently. He toyed with his opponents; poked them, prodded them, scared them, then broke their ribs or nose. Professional fighters looked foolish and intimidated as Gomez bore in, jabbing and tapping, feeling and feinting but at the same time, not being hit - at all. Slipping punches by a millimetre, ducking them in succession, floating in and out like a wraith. Then he just bashed fuck out of 'em.

[Robbi]

Gomez of the late '70s looked like the best pound-for-pound - ever. His opponents at that time weren't much cop, but he stood out like a fat bird in the Playboy mansion. Except he was only little. Little, but not little enough to fit into the more historically rich 118lbs division, which is a shame. Wasn't big enough to fit into the 126lbs division either, so he was left to fill the ghostly 122lbs void which was, at that time, all but starved of talent. Gomez came and rescued it, and brilliantly so - gliding like Pep, hitting like Robinson and thinking like Duran, Gomez the Wizard imbued all the past powers of the greats and crafted his own offensively-defensive style that worked magnificently. He toyed with his opponents; poked them, prodded them, scared them, then broke their ribs or nose. Professional fighters looked foolish and intimidated as Gomez bore in, jabbing and tapping, feeling and feinting but at the same time, not being hit - at all. Slipping punches by a millimetre, ducking them in succession, floating in and out like a wraith. Then he just bashed fuck out of 'em.

Then ran into Sanchez, who he was favoured to beat, and got a spanking.

[Manassa]

Then ran into Sanchez, who he was favoured to beat, and got a spanking.

Indeed, however, Gomez was slowed by that point. His training habits were lackluster at best, and even before the Sanchez fight, Gomez' diminished speed and agility was there for all to see. Sanchez was Sanchez though, and was roughly on par with even the best Gomez - but bigger. I never did agree that Sanchez totally shut him out, though... The fight was closer than those pesky Mexicans would like to think - Sanchez didn't outclass Gomez, he just took it better and dished it out better.

[Robbi]

Indeed, however, Gomez was slowed by that point. His training habits were lackluster at best, and even before the Sanchez fight, Gomez' diminished speed and agility was there for all to see. Sanchez was Sanchez though, and was roughly on par with even the best Gomez - but bigger. I never did agree that Sanchez totally shut him out, though... The fight was closer than those pesky Mexicans would like to think - Sanchez didn't outclass Gomez, he just took it better and dished it out better.

Gomez's punch resistance wasn't as quite firm against Sanchez, who was a decent hitter at featherweight, certainly not devastating. And when Gomez was dumped on his butt during the first round by a left hook when fresh and alert, maybe featherweight was a bridge too far. Never stopped during his career until he moved up, with Nelson and Layne also stopping him at featherweight. Sometimes it happens, a fighter moves up one division and never the same again.

When Gomez was stopped against Sanchez on the ropes during the 8th he took a hell of a lot of flush punches before disappearing. Right hands were the damaging blows if memory serves me correctly.

[Manassa]

Gomez's punch resistance wasn't as quite firm against Sanchez, who was a decent hitter at featherweight, certainly not devastating. And when Gomez was dumped on his butt during the first round by a left hook when fresh and alert, maybe featherweight was a bridge too far. Never stopped during his career until he moved up, with Nelson and Layne also stopping him at featherweight. Sometimes it happens, a fighter moves up one division and never the same again.

When Gomez was stopped against Sanchez on the ropes during the 8th he took a hell of a lot of flush punches before disappearing. Right hands were the damaging blows if memory serves me correctly.

I've seen better finishes by Sanchez - against Gomez, he cracked him with one right to the jaw which sank him, but the follow up was just a wild flurry - many missed.

[Robbi]

I've seen better finishes by Sanchez - against Gomez, he cracked him with one right to the jaw which sank him, but the follow up was just a wild flurry - many missed.

Yeah, but the ones Sanchez landed were pretty flush, and a couple in particular were rather full on shots. Some shots were missed, agreed.

I would say one of the best finishes I have ever seen when a fighter is raining punches towards a wounded opponent. Pryor's finish against Arguello. A very good two handed assualt If I ever seen one. When Arguello staggered back against the ropes from the centre of the ring, Pryor's volume and accuracy was rather sickening. All blows delivered from either hand in succession around the temple and jaw.

[Longhhorn71]

Indeed, however, Gomez was slowed by that point. His training habits were lackluster at best, and even before the Sanchez fight, Gomez' diminished speed and agility was there for all to see. Sanchez was Sanchez though, and was roughly on par with even the best Gomez - but bigger. I never did agree that Sanchez totally shut him out, though... The fight was closer than those pesky Mexicans would like to think - Sanchez didn't outclass Gomez, he just took it better and dished it out better.

At virtually all "crossroads" fights (sporting events. etc.) the loser usually comes up with a justification why he lost.....Gomez said he
underestimated Sanchez.

Sanchez in his last 6 victories had defeated fighters with a total
record of 255 wins and 13 losses (including the rematch with D. Lopez)

It was Gomez's responsibility to understand what Sanchez's record meant.

His swollen eyes, and being driven to the canvas, brought the point home in a very hard way.

[Titan1]

Gomez and Jamie Garza would've been a thriller.

[red cobra]

The classic 122 lb Gomez, when facing a formidable opponent that presented a potential threat to him like Zarate, for instance, he would have been virtually unbeatable. He utilized in nearly equal proportions his catlike cleverness and boxing ability with his deadly power to a degree that would have made him dominant against ANYONE.

[Popkins]

i personally think that Gomez would school Manny Pac in the same way as an ageing Morales and a technically superior Marquez have already done

:patsch Yes, the way Morales "schooled" him to win by 2 points then get stopped twice, and the way Marquez "schooled" him getting put flat on his back 4 times and winning zero out of 2 fights. What a 'tard.

[Popkins]

Gomez of the late '70s looked like the best pound-for-pound - ever. His opponents at that time weren't much cop, but he stood out like a fat bird in the Playboy mansion. Except he was only little. Little, but not little enough to fit into the more historically rich 118lbs division, which is a shame. Wasn't big enough to fit into the 126lbs division either, so he was left to fill the ghostly 122lbs void which was, at that time, all but starved of talent. Gomez came and rescued it, and brilliantly so - gliding like Pep, hitting like Robinson and thinking like Duran, Gomez the Wizard imbued all the past powers of the greats and crafted his own offensively-defensive style that worked magnificently. He toyed with his opponents; poked them, prodded them, scared them, then broke their ribs or nose. Professional fighters looked foolish and intimidated as Gomez bore in, jabbing and tapping, feeling and feinting but at the same time, not being hit - at all. Slipping punches by a millimetre, ducking them in succession, floating in and out like a wraith. Then he just bashed fuck out of 'em.

Great post. Gomez at his best was a talent comparable to almost any other. An incredible fighting machine.

[Popkins]

Just to take another example, Erik Morales probably has a better resume than Tito (especially if you don't grant Tito the DLH win), but I still place Tito higher on the basis that he looked better in his prime than Morales did.

That's an interesting and rather surprising call mate. Why do you think Tito looked better than Morales did in his prime?

I think I would probably favour Morales as being slightly better in terms of ability myself.

Tito was a destroyer at welterweight sure, but his opposition was not exactly stellar. Oscar clearly beat him when they met, and although Tito then excelled at lightmiddle, he was always prone to being dropped, and the way that Hopkins, Winky and Oscar outboxed him does lead me to think a certain style of fighter could always have and would always beat him.

By comparison, Morales wasn't perfect either, he too had his flaws in his prime, he sloppily allowed guys like Zaragoza and McCullough have more of the fight than they should have (ie he could've boxed them better), and he did lose his two big trilogies, but Morales was a bit more versatile I think. He boxed Pacquiao superbly in their first fight, and he brawled equally well in the third fight with Barrera. He was excellent against Jesus Chavez, and solid against guys like Ayala and Chi.

Taking each on their best night, I think peak Morales is the safer bet to win against a range of opponents at his best weight.

What do you think mate?

[WhataRock]

I think Tito had a pretty good reign at welter. Man for man is was as good, possibly better then Erik's at 122. Plus he was plenty dominant against some very solid fighters.

I guess you gotta wonder how does either fair against the others opposition. Its kind of hard with the size disparity. But Id say Erik loses to the guys Tito did, including the loss that didnt get counted.

But I dont know if a 147 version of Barerra could take on a rangy, competently skilled wrecking ball like Tito. He took on a short, distracted and lazy wrecking ball in Hamed but I dont need to tell you the differences between those fights.

Fuck its hard to say..sorta making me dizzy right now thinking about it.

[JohnThomas1]

The classic 122 lb Gomez, when facing a formidable opponent that presented a potential threat to him like Zarate, for instance, he would have been virtually unbeatable. He utilized in nearly equal proportions his catlike cleverness and boxing ability with his deadly power to a degree that would have made him dominant against ANYONE.


Except Sanchez. He never did look 100% at Feather. Great fighter, one of my favourites.

[Flea Man]

Anyone whos seen his fight with Davila will be in no doubt as to Gomez's boxing ability. A master.

At 126 he doesn't impress me too much.

Best 122lber ever; no one lasts the distance over 15 with him, not Morales, McCullough, anyone.

[GPater11093]

Gomez is one of the best fighters to watch ever. He was the Sugar Ray Robinson of the SBW's. The man is the total package just lacked that added greatness that the creamof teh crop had.

[PowerPuncher]

:patsch Yes, the way Morales "schooled" him to win by 2 points then get stopped twice, and the way Marquez "schooled" him getting put flat on his back 4 times and winning zero out of 2 fights. What a 'tard.

It was pretty much a schooling though, could have been wider than 2points, could have been 4points and thats after Morales went moi macho in the last round going southpaw to prove a point, which if he didnt could have made it a 9-3 fight.

Think Manny beats Gomez though, especially 126 and above

[Mantequilla]

Gomez and Jamie Garza would've been a thriller.


Christ, stop bumping up old threads with half-assed throwaway comments.add something substantial at least.

[Popkins]

It was pretty much a schooling though, could have been wider than 2points, could have been 4points and thats after Morales went moi macho in the last round going southpaw to prove a point, which if he didnt could have made it a 9-3 fight.

Think Manny beats Gomez though, especially 126 and above

No chance was Morales-Pacquiao an 8-4. It was closer than that for sure.

[sweet_scientist]

That's an interesting and rather surprising call mate. Why do you think Tito looked better than Morales did in his prime?

I think I would probably favour Morales as being slightly better in terms of ability myself.

Tito was a destroyer at welterweight sure, but his opposition was not exactly stellar. Oscar clearly beat him when they met, and although Tito then excelled at lightmiddle, he was always prone to being dropped, and the way that Hopkins, Winky and Oscar outboxed him does lead me to think a certain style of fighter could always have and would always beat him.

By comparison, Morales wasn't perfect either, he too had his flaws in his prime, he sloppily allowed guys like Zaragoza and McCullough have more of the fight than they should have (ie he could've boxed them better), and he did lose his two big trilogies, but Morales was a bit more versatile I think. He boxed Pacquiao superbly in their first fight, and he brawled equally well in the third fight with Barrera. He was excellent against Jesus Chavez, and solid against guys like Ayala and Chi.

Taking each on their best night, I think peak Morales is the safer bet to win against a range of opponents at his best weight.

What do you think mate?

Morales was more diverse than Tito Pop, but Tito's physical presence and power made him a more dominant force imo. He was just that little bit better at his best weight because of those reasons, and Morales' diversity does not set that off.

Morales would have lost to a similar sized DLH too imo, and probably still would have had a battle from a fading Whitaker (if we take his struggle with an old mechanical Zaragoza as any evidence) and Vargas too (if we take his struggle with a basically one armed Jesus Chavez as evidence). Give that he struggled with Guty Espadas too he probably would have had his hands full with an Oba Carr as well.

I personally feel Tito would knock a fighter like Barrera out, even if Barrera did outbox him along the way, and he could have knocked Pacquiao out too though I can see him losing that one too becuase of Pac's speed.

Tito did get schooled pretty badly by Hopkins, but Morales probably would have been schooled by Hopkins too if he went and fought a Hopkins at 130. Not as badly though.

I won't look too deeply into the Winky loss, as I wouldn't look too deeply into the Raheem loss for Morales, given that they were pretty much past it by that stage.

I think Morales would have more success against boxer types than Tito, but Tito would have more success than Morales against the guys that liked to fight off the front foot or stand their ground occasionally. With Tito's power and stalking presence though, he's always a chance to end a fight against a slightly chinny boxer.

But I must say, I never really thought Morales and Barrera were as good as DLH and Tito when they were all around in their primes.

[PowerPuncher]

No chance was Morales-Pacquiao an 8-4. It was closer than that for sure.

So there wasnt 1 of PAcquaios rounds that couldnt have gone the other way? I'd disagree

[Popkins]

So there wasnt 1 of PAcquaios rounds that couldnt have gone the other way? I'd disagree

Fair enough mate, we don't really have enough of a difference to argue about it. I had it to Morales by a point or two as I thought it was a really close fight, you had it a bit wider. No sweat.

[Popkins]

Morales was more diverse than Tito Pop, but Tito's physical presence and power made him a more dominant force imo. He was just that little bit better at his best weight because of those reasons, and Morales' diversity does not set that off.

Morales would have lost to a similar sized DLH too imo, and probably still would have had a battle from a fading Whitaker (if we take his struggle with an old mechanical Zaragoza as any evidence) and Vargas too (if we take his struggle with a basically one armed Jesus Chavez as evidence). Give that he struggled with Guty Espadas too he probably would have had his hands full with an Oba Carr as well.

I personally feel Tito would knock a fighter like Barrera out, even if Barrera did outbox him along the way, and he could have knocked Pacquiao out too though I can see him losing that one too becuase of Pac's speed.

Tito did get schooled pretty badly by Hopkins, but Morales probably would have been schooled by Hopkins too if he went and fought a Hopkins at 130. Not as badly though.

I won't look too deeply into the Winky loss, as I wouldn't look too deeply into the Raheem loss for Morales, given that they were pretty much past it by that stage.

I think Morales would have more success against boxer types than Tito, but Tito would have more success than Morales against the guys that liked to fight off the front foot or stand their ground occasionally. With Tito's power and stalking presence though, he's always a chance to end a fight against a slightly chinny boxer.

I don't really go in for the old hypotheticals involving fighters from different weight classes mate, I can't make sense of it myself, but I can definitely see where you're coming from, Tito was a monster at welterweight whose sheer power would allowed him to crush many good welters, whereas Morales managed to make fights against decent opposition more difficult than they needed to be. I think I'd still perhaps edge to Morales on ability, but I can see your point. Last question for you though - did you think Tito was better at welter or lightmiddle? I think he looked a slightly stronger, better fighter at lightmiddle. His performance against Vargas in particular was flawed, but actually pretty brilliant IMO. I always liked Vargas as a fighter, I thought he had better ability than he is often now given credit for. He wasn't a world-beater, but he was pretty good on his night.

But I must say, I never really thought Morales and Barrera were as good as DLH and Tito when they were all around in their primes.

I think Oscar is the best of the four ability-wise for sure. After that, there really isn't much to choose from between them. If I had to choose, I'd say Barrera of 2000/2001 was a better fighter than Morales or Tito ever were.

[sweet_scientist]

I don't really go in for the old hypotheticals involving fighters from different weight classes mate, I can't make sense of it myself, but I can definitely see where you're coming from, Tito was a monster at welterweight whose sheer power would allowed him to crush many good welters, whereas Morales managed to make fights against decent opposition more difficult than they needed to be. I think I'd still perhaps edge to Morales on ability, but I can see your point. Last question for you though - did you think Tito was better at welter or lightmiddle? I think he looked a slightly stronger, better fighter at lightmiddle. His performance against Vargas in particular was flawed, but actually pretty brilliant IMO. I always liked Vargas as a fighter, I thought he had better ability than he is often now given credit for. He wasn't a world-beater, but he was pretty good on his night.

I think he was stronger and more powerful at 154 too, but in terms of strength and power relative to his opponents, I'd still say he was at his best at 147 Pop. It's kind of like the same answer I give to the 'where was Hearns better, at 147 or 154?' question. I acknowledge that he was stronger and looked more comfortable at 154, but a Hearns shot at 147 would have massacred an 147 pound opponent easier than a shot at 154 would to an 154 pound opponent. Same goes with Tito I feel. The height also was such an advantage at welter, for both guys.

I agree with you on Vargas, he is a lot better than he is given credit for nowadays. A pre-Tito Vargas probably beats both Mosley and DLH at 154 imo. I thought he actually drew with Winky Wright, and easily accounted for Ike Quartey.

I think Oscar is the best of the four ability-wise for sure. After that, there really isn't much to choose from between them. If I had to choose, I'd say Barrera of 2000/2001 was a better fighter than Morales or Tito ever were.Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree here.