If Ali didn't have his title stripped would FRAZIER ever of been champion?

[Arthur]

Joe Frazier won his title after Ali was stripped. After losing to Foreman he never regained it. I can't help but wondering if Ali hadn't been stripped would Frazier of ever been a champion and remembered so well today??

for the record i'm not hating on Smoking Joe, i like him a lot actually.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Chances are he would've got himself into title contention, would've faced Ali, Ali would've pissed him off, and the chain of events would probably be no different than what they actually were, only difference being Ali would've gone into the first fight as heavyweight champion. So.. yes, Frazier would've been champion, I think.

[Smokin'Joe100]

50/50. If the fight was made in 69 it would be very interesting,with Ali probably getting a competitive decision (say 9-6), but Frazier would be up and coming, and rawer than in 71, so may have got the nod.

[McGrain]

Here's the thing: regardless of who won the first one, there would always have been a rematch on account of what a good fight it would always be. So yeah, I see Frazier taking one of the two decisions. I'd always give Joe at least one out of the three. People go on about Norton but I see peak Joe as the real nightmare for Ali.

[Luigi1985]

Ali would have outboxed him. He would have had vastly more experience and would have made the changes he needed to make as he aged gradually instead of working out the bugs after the Frazier fight.



:tired

[Marnoff]

I don't see why not. Frazier won their first encounter, even flooring Ali. Years earlier Ali would have been sharper, but I still see Joe winning the title.

[McGrain]

Ali would have outboxed him. He would have had vastly more experience and would have made the changes he needed to make as he aged gradually instead of working out the bugs after the Frazier fight.


I think he would have been a very different fighter, but whether he would have been better or worse, who's to say?

[Drew101]

Here's the thing: regardless of who won the first one, there would always have been a rematch on account of what a good fight it would always be. So yeah, I see Frazier taking one of the two decisions. I'd always give Joe at least one out of the three. People go on about Norton but I see peak Joe as the real nightmare for Ali.

Agreed. I do this an active, peak Ali would have earned a decision in the first fight, but we still have to assume that he would have lost something as a result of the fight...which would have allowed Frazier to sqeeze out the rematch.

[Jack Dempsey]

Here's the thing: regardless of who won the first one, there would always have been a rematch on account of what a good fight it would always be. So yeah, I see Frazier taking one of the two decisions. I'd always give Joe at least one out of the three. People go on about Norton but I see peak Joe as the real nightmare for Ali.

I'd agree with this

[My dinner with Conteh]

I've always felt Frazier was perhaps the man who would have upset Ali had the scenario unfolded like mentioned. Ali, maybe after defending against Quarry, Ellis and Spencer meets Joe around late 1968 and the determined challenger, feeling this could be his one shot at the big time, fights out of his skin and outpoints an over-confident champion.

[Marciano Frazier]

Odds are he would have been. There's a good chance he would have beaten Ali in the late '60s, and if not, the odds are that somewhere between '68 and '75, Ali would have lost the title(perhaps to Norton) and there would be a good chance then that Frazier would come in and beat whomever had usurped Ali.

[ironchamp]

Odds are he would have been. There's a good chance he would have beaten Ali in the late '60s, and if not, the odds are that somewhere between '68 and '75, Ali would have lost the title(perhaps to Norton) and there would be a good chance then that Frazier would come in and beat whomever had usurped Ali.

There is a chance that Frazier could have picked up the title but it wouldnt have been from Ali. The fights would have resemebled the Holyfield Bowe I in the sense that Frazier puts a valiant effort only to be bested by the the better man.

I do think that Ali would have more than likely lost to Norton. Who in turn would lose to Frazier who in turn would lose to Foreman who would have beat Norton only lose to Ali.

If the premise of the thread is that Frazier winning the title means he can only get it from Ali then no. I'd favor Ali to retain his title.

[Marciano Frazier]

There is a chance that Frazier could have picked up the title but it wouldnt have been from Ali. The fights would have resemebled the Holyfield Bowe I in the sense that Frazier puts a valiant effort only to be bested by the the better man.
And what makes you say that? Frazier decisively beat Ali in '71. I don't think Ali in '71 was far declined from his peak in the '60s. Do you really believe that the difference was so enormous that it would swing all the way from a decisive win for Frazier to a decisive win for Ali? I absolutely don't. This is a very close fight, and there is a very good chance Frazier wins it.

I do think that Ali would have more than likely lost to Norton. Who in turn would lose to Frazier who in turn would lose to Foreman who would have beat Norton only lose to Ali.
What, in your eyes, makes Norton a better candidate for upsetting Ali than Frazier? In real life, Frazier beat the younger, nearer-to-his-peak Ali, and didn't have to do it under the flukish broken-jaw circumstances. Frazier was a better fighter than Norton and came along earlier. I think the odds are very solid that Frazier would win the title from Ali in the late '60s. If not, then the odds would be very solid he would win the title further down the line after someone else(possibly Norton) took the title from Ali(as I mentioned in my last post in this thread).

[Duodenum]

No. In my estimation, Smoke had already achieved a HOF resume by the FOTC, but Ali had been dreadful in his previous performance against Ringo, and rushed into their first match in the expectation that the US Supreme Court as composed by Nixon was not going to rule in Ali's favor.

If Ali had never been reclassified to 1A for the draft, had gone to Tokyo to decision Bonavena on May 24, 1967, and continued from there, he probably would have decisioned Frazier in a meeting similar to their 1974 12 rounder, pre-emptively intercepting Smoke before he was ready to challenge for the title.

Even if Ali had his wisdom tooth removed in a timely fashion so that his jaw could never be broken, I expect that Ken Norton, with Eddie Futch's guidance, would have been the challenger to eventually break Ali's winning streak. While Frazier would have defeated Norton had they ever met, the fact is that their paths never crossed in competition, and may not have with Norton holding the title. Ali would have regained the championship from Ken in an immediate rematch anyway. (Much of Norton's legacy is wrapped up in this assumption, while Frazier's is diluted by stepping into the void left by Ali's exile. That's very unfair to Smoke, who provided HW boxing with a needed redeemer at a crucial time, as did Holmes after Ali, and Tyson after Holmes. HW boxing is now in a dreary limbo which could use a Frazier today.)

Ali wouldn't have sustained the debilitating punishment he withstood in the FOTC, but would have experienced a hectic enough challenge to regard Joe as a serious challenge in a rematch. If Ali had repelled a Frazier challenge the year he entered into exile, it's entirely possible that Joe would have needed to defeat Foreman in order to secure another shot. That would have been an extremely difficult obstacle for Joe to overcomne stylistically, one that didn't bode well for Smoke ever having an opportunity to become champion afterwards.

[ChrisPontius]

I think Frazier would've beaten Ali regardless. Something that not many (except for MDWC) take into account is that if Ali went on to beat more challengers, he'd suffer the same over-confidence sloppy-training syndrom that nearly everyone else did. A look into his career in the 70's certainly shows that he was underprepaired for some fights, the first Norton one being most the obvious one.
In 1971, Ali was in terrific shape, threw 60 punches a round over 15 rounds and went the distance dispite eating tons of huge left hooks. A 10 pound overweight Ali in 69 may well have been a lesser fighter.

But even an in-shape Ali at his peak would've always had big problems with Frazier.

[Jear]

If Ali fights through to 69-70 he is significantly better than 71 post layoff, Joe is possibly a little greener. Being champ seems to give something mentally to the holder. Joe is always tough for Ali but unless he wins the first fight he doesnt beat Ali. Ali is just that bit sharper, bit more stamina without the layoff.

Joe took a lot out of Ali in FOTC but Joe himself was never quite the same afterwards either.

One more thing to consider; Joe himself has said that he wanted that fight so bad because Alis shadow hung over his lack of respect as champ at the time, would that same motivation and belief have been there as a challenger?

[TBooze]

If Ali had not been stripped, I think he would of gone to retire in 68 anyway, and Frazier would of won the Heavyweight Championship of the World. But his reign would of always been tainted by the fact he had not fought Ali.

[janitor]

Joe Frazier won his title after Ali was stripped. After losing to Foreman he never regained it. I can't help but wondering if Ali hadn't been stripped would Frazier of ever been a champion

You can be sure of one thing.

If Ali had beaten him then nobody would be talking about him today.

[Bummy Davis]

Ali came back a stronger man but Frazier as fit as he was for A/F 1 would have beaten Ali regardless, styles make fights, shame Frazier could not mantain the condition once he became a Big Star,Singer,and Party man, you can not burn the candle at both ends. Ali put his opponents in the spotlight but Frazier rose to the top by being a talented swarmer with a great left hook(ALI's Kryptonite) even a mediocre club fighter like Chuck Wepner was built up because he fought Ali, but I seen Chuck fight and it was horrible, he would not get in the top 50 today. Ali was great but the era was no better than any other IMO

[groove]

What would a 1967 Ali do to Bonavena? Ellis whooped him and he wasn't in Ali's class in the 60s. a 1970 Ali took more punches from Bonavena that most of his fights from 64-67 put together. That's gotta tell you something about the lay-off. But maybe not ;)

[Smokin'Joe100]

One question, in his lay-off, was Ali still in the gym regular, like sparring, working out, bag work etc at least 2-3 times a week? Or did he just piss around with politics and hit the gym maybe twice a month?

[groove]

Ali was touring the country and doing lectures. He even did a play. He was outta condition for the Rocky computer thing. Even Cus mentioned he was in bad fighting shape for that Cassius Clay doc. He would've been training when he had the time but he definitely wasn't in proper professional boxing training - he had to make a living in other ways. He retired from the sport and didn't think he was going to return to the ring. I don't know how much he sparred? That's an interesting question which i would like to find out more. Angelo Dundee or Jimmy Ellis would know. Anyone know how to contact them?

[mr. magoo]

If Frazier wasn't blind in one eye, would Ali have beaten him in Manila? Enough with the excuses. Frazier had hypertension going into the first fight, too. Frazier also had diabetes. Certainly all of this cancels out Ali's terrible disease of sitting on a couch for 3 years?

Ali was ready. He looked fine, but he shouldn't have trash talked so much.


Prime Frazier ????

[C. M. Clay II]

If they fought in '68, Ali would have probably beaten him by a close but definite decision. The fight would have gained enough notoriety for a rematch around 1970, and Ali, now having a psychological advantage would have beaten him again by a wider decision. Ali was still feeling the effects of that layoff. His legs were just not there and he was much more hittable. In addition he was still feeling effects from his last fight with Bonavena, who gave him a tremendous body beating. Three months just wasn't enough to heal from that fight, and that made him run out of gas quicker which also made him more hittable.

[janitor]

If they fought in '68,

I don't think that they would have fought untill about 1970.

[thunder06]

Yes. Ali would have taken him lightly and lost at least one of their fights.

[Marciano Frazier]

No. In my estimation, Smoke had already achieved a HOF resume by the FOTC, but Ali had been dreadful in his previous performance against Ringo, and rushed into their first match in the expectation that the US Supreme Court as composed by Nixon was not going to rule in Ali's favor.
Ali was impressive against Quarry, and the Bonavena fight was tough, but he closed it out very well. Back-to-back fights with two of the best contenders alive certainly qualifies as a respectable warm-up for a championship match. Ali may not have been in peak form, but he wasn't far removed when Frazier beat him.

While Frazier would have defeated Norton had they ever met, the fact is that their paths never crossed in competition, and may not have with Norton holding the title.
I disagree. Assuming Frazier has lost a title shot at Ali in the late '60s(which I am not convinced he would have) before Ali drops the championship to Norton in the early '70s, Frazier will still be pressing at the absolute front of the pack of contenders for another shot- he was extremely dominant against Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Chuvalo, etc., and would undoubtedly be either the #1 contender or #2(behind Ali) at this time(presumably somewhere from '70 to '72). There is not a half-bad chance that, being so eminently deserving and dominant against the field, Frazier gets a shot at Norton shortly after Norton claims the championship and knocks him out.


Ali wouldn't have sustained the debilitating punishment he withstood in the FOTC, but would have experienced a hectic enough challenge to regard Joe as a serious challenge in a rematch. If Ali had repelled a Frazier challenge the year he entered into exile, it's entirely possible that Joe would have needed to defeat Foreman in order to secure another shot. That would have been an extremely difficult obstacle for Joe to overcomne stylistically, one that didn't bode well for Smoke ever having an opportunity to become champion afterwards.
Not necessarily at all. Aside from wins over fringe contenders Peralta and Chuvalo, Foreman did almost nothing but swat around clubfighters prior to his title shot in '73- nearly half of his 37 fights prior to Frazier were against opponents with losing records. Foreman hadn't really created any overly powerful push to get himself into a title eliminator. Frazier could quite possibly have gotten a rematch with Ali without any need to fight Foreman on the way, and would then have still a third shot at the title with a solid chance at winning.

I also think you're wrong in your presumption that Frazier would have fought Ali for the title in '67 if not for the exile. In real life, Frazier was still having stay-busy fights against guys like Scrap Iron Johnson and Marion Connor between serious opponents- it wasn't until '68 that he fought for a belt and started consistently taking on top opponents. I think that is more likely how things would go; Frazier rises through the rankings in '67, and gets a shot at Ali in '68 or '69, when he is starting to absolutely peak out.

So, to sum that all up, I think:
1. There is a good chance Frazier beats Ali in the late '60s and claims the championship.
2. If Frazier loses to Ali in the aforementioned fight, there is a good chance that when Ali is eventually upset somewhere in the late '60s to early '70s, Frazier defeats whoever took the title from Ali(possibly Norton).
3. If Frazier doesn't get the shot at Ali's conqueror and instead Ali regains the title in a rematch, there is a good chance that Frazier takes the title from Ali in a rematch somewhere in '70-73.

Thus, I think there are at least three junctures where Frazier would have a very strong chance at claiming the championship in this hypothetical timeline, and that the odds are he would win the title at at least one of them.

[Vantage_West]

if frazier might of lost the first fight the 2nd would be different frazier was so hard to beat it's unreal thats why it was so damn scary seeing foreman taking apart the smaller lighter weaker older shot frazier

[ThinBlack]

Don't see it happening.Frazier would've had to have beaten another fighter to get that world title.Ali was not the one.

[Dempsey1238]

Ali was not God. He would have lost one to Fraizer. I think they face each other in 69-71 for the first time and I give Joe a good chance in winning in that time frame.

[lufcrazy]

I've just been thinking about this quite a lot so i'm pleased a thread about it is on the first page.

I think out of every hw in history, frazier is the anti-ali.

He has the perfect mix of speed, physique, aggression, power and workrate.

Frazier is the one hw I think has a stylistic advantage over ali. There are other heavyweights who can do things that joe can do but better, however none have his unique mix.

His head movement is the perfect counter to ali's jab. His aggression is the perfect counter to his footwork. His leaping left hook is the wild card that will take care of any clowning or showboating. His power is more than enough to hurt ali and his durability allows him to take what ali can throw at him.

I don't think ali can be knocked out. That for me rules out guys i'd previously picked to beat ali, most notably joe louis. I think frazier is the only man who could outpoint him prime for prime.

That being said, I do think frazier would still be champion from 68. Ali was at the height of his powers and the height of his confidence. Frazier's blunt force trauma would be a shock to the system.

I do think ali would lose a rematch in the near future. I personally don't think history would change to much.

As I say, frazier is the anti-ali. The one man i'd favour to beat the greatest prime for prime.

[Lord Tywin]

Frazier would have beat Ali regardless.

[sauhund II]

I've just been thinking about this quite a lot so i'm pleased a thread about it is on the first page.

I think out of every hw in history, frazier is the anti-ali.

He has the perfect mix of speed, physique, aggression, power and workrate.

Frazier is the one hw I think has a stylistic advantage over ali. There are other heavyweights who can do things that joe can do but better, however none have his unique mix.

His head movement is the perfect counter to ali's jab. His aggression is the perfect counter to his footwork. His leaping left hook is the wild card that will take care of any clowning or showboating. His power is more than enough to hurt ali and his durability allows him to take what ali can throw at him.

I don't think ali can be knocked out. That for me rules out guys i'd previously picked to beat ali, most notably joe louis. I think frazier is the only man who could outpoint him prime for prime.

That being said, I do think frazier would still be champion from 68. Ali was at the height of his powers and the height of his confidence. Frazier's blunt force trauma would be a shock to the system.

I do think ali would lose a rematch in the near future. I personally don't think history would change to much.

As I say, frazier is the anti-ali. The one man i'd favour to beat the greatest prime for prime.
LOL, no........68 Ali is far different than the one Frazier eventually met.

Ali did not do jack shit when he was banned., boxing was the last thing on his mind..........his timing and legs plus even his speed were never the same after the layoff.

LOL, so Tyson was better when he came out of the can ? Not the same but both wasted their prime, and both never ever looked the same after their long lay offs, can or freedom , it is all the same, you don't fight regularly you are fucked.

No Ali exile no Joe Frazier champion. Fact. We all saw when Joe met a prime Hwt talent, not the usual gatekeepers ,in Foreman........blown out in uncompetitve fashion.

For the record, Frazier won O-N-E out of his 5 signature fights against Ali/Foreman, stopped three times............I don't know about you but that is about as shit as it gets.

[Boxed Ears]

I would say no, but I've seen their first fight. Too wide for Frazier. He'd have fought Ali eventually and he'd have defeated him. I'm assuming you mean if Frazier had met him at a time when he'd have come into his own, of course.

[Shake]

Hard to say, Ali had that quality. But for a man of Ali's broad interests, a demon as driven as Frazier is a hard thing to ward off. Ali might very well have become distracted ever so slightly from boxing, and that would open the door for Joe.

Guesswork, really. Honestly, I think Ali would have managed to ward him off.

[slip&counter]

Prime Ali of the late 60's beats Frazier a lot more comfortably than he could ever do after the exile. After that who knows how things would've unfolded. Lets not forget also that in the FOC Frazier imo lost his prime in that fight. So what happens if he meets Ali earlier. If it's as vicious a fight with an Ali closer to his prime does he stay the same. Interesting question actually.

[Pachilles]

Frazier beat dat ass

[Jimjom]

i fancy frazier to take it, i fancy frazier always having too much in their first encounter at any point, he just had the style that gave ali problems, like norton, doesnt matter when

[lufcrazy]

LOL, no........68 Ali is far different than the one Frazier eventually met.

Ali did not do jack shit when he was banned., boxing was the last thing on his mind..........his timing and legs plus even his speed were never the same after the layoff.

LOL, so Tyson was better when he came out of the can ? Not the same but both wasted their prime, and both never ever looked the same after their long lay offs, can or freedom , it is all the same, you don't fight regularly you are fucked.

No Ali exile no Joe Frazier champion. Fact. We all saw when Joe met a prime Hwt talent, not the usual gatekeepers ,in Foreman........blown out in uncompetitve fashion.

For the record, Frazier won O-N-E out of his 5 signature fights against Ali/Foreman, stopped three times............I don't know about you but that is about as shit as it gets.

This is the worst post i've ever seen on classic forum.

I feel bad just replying to it.

[Stevie G]

I reckon Frazier would have had a good shot. The trilogy still transpires in this alternate timeline. I see Ali winning the first one by a sizeable decision; underestimates Joe for the second,and loses by a close verdict. A fired up Ali takes the third go.

All these fights would take place circa 1968-70.

[frankenfrank]

Not only that Frazier would have become a champion , he would have gotten more respect 4 it (or would Ali's right wing nuthuggers make it less ?) due 2 beating a reigning Ali . Instead of fighting a rested Ali Frazier might had fought a possibly somewhat trimmer Ali but also somewhat more damaged so he may have actually beaten him easier under this scenario . Frazier was 2 yrs younger than Ali .

[round15]

Frazier was ready in 68. A lot of people talk about the 60's Ali and the one we never saw during his exile. I think Ali might have a better chance at outpointing him if they had fought, circa 1968 - 1970. One thing is for sure. Ali never danced for an entire 15 round fight. He was quicker on his feet, but I believe Frazier would have caught him and done his routine damage to the body.

[round15]

if frazier might of lost the first fight the 2nd would be different frazier was so hard to beat it's unreal thats why it was so damn scary seeing foreman taking apart the smaller lighter weaker older shot frazier

Exactly the reason why many people at the time didn't think Foreman would last half of a 15 round fight with Frazier. Again, there's a big difference between the fighter who showed up to defend in Jamaica, and the fighter who was the champion during Ali's exile up to the FOTC.

Frazier never treated an opponent so lightly as he did Foreman. Too much partying and too little focus on George and more on his singing career. Only his toughness and fighting pride allowed him to keep getting up against George.