How good was Ray Robinson?

[saul_ir34]

I have always heard he is the greatest ever. I have seen some footage of him and yes he looked GREAT. He looked like he had the Floyd Mayweather skills along with the Gatti courage and Mike Tyson type of power for his weight class. IS this correct or not? Man i wish i had grown up in those days. I love watching great live fights and they seem few and far in between in this era.

[ThePlugInBabies]

gatti and sugar ray robinson in the same post? :admin

i need to go shower and be cleansed.

[Thread Stealer]

gatti and sugar ray robinson in the same post? :admin

i need to go shower and be cleansed.

Here's a fair one. Jake LaMotta in the last 3 rounds of the 6th fight with Ray Robinson looked like Arturo Gatti.

[Thread Stealer]

I have always heard he is the greatest ever. I have seen some footage of him and yes he looked GREAT. He looked like he had the Floyd Mayweather skills along with the Gatti courage and Mike Tyson type of power for his weight class. IS this correct or not? Man i wish i had grown up in those days. I love watching great live fights and they seem few and far in between in this era.

SRR was the complete package.

He was quick, powerful, skilled, tough. He was stopped once in 200 fights, due to exhaustion. He wasn't THAT slick, however. His KO % (which is good, but not great) may be misleading. He carried quite a few guys, often on orders from the Mob.

[saul_ir34]

gatti and sugar ray robinson in the same post? :admin

i need to go shower and be cleansed.

Yea yea i know. i meant courage wise though

[john garfield]

I have always heard he is the greatest ever. I have seen some footage of him and yes he looked GREAT. He looked like he had the Floyd Mayweather skills along with the Gatti courage and Mike Tyson type of power for his weight class. IS this correct or not? Man i wish i had grown up in those days. I love watching great live fights and they seem few and far in between in this era.

It doesn't get any better, s34. Think of everything you look for in a great fighter; he was the whole package!

[McGrain]

I have Robinson at #1 p4p. I also have him at #1 WW and #1 MW. But i'm starting to get a bit stressed about him.

Therea are a LOT of great fighters he didn't tackle in his era.

A LOT.

[dmille]

Yeah, he only had 202 fights. He should have had at least another 100-150...

[McGrain]

Yeah, he only had 202 fights. He should have had at least another 100-150...

Charley Burley
Holman Williams
Eddie Booker
Archie Moore
Cocoa Kid
Lloyd Marshall
Ezzard Charles
Jack Chase.

I've limited myself here to fighters who may be better than every fighter that SRR ever fought. I'm not insisting he fight them all in addition. If he skips LaMotta, he can take on six of them.

You get the idea, i'm sure.

[McGrain]

Do you think most of them are better than Kid Gavilan?

I think that Burley, Booker, Charles and Moore definitley are.

Williams probably is.

The rest, borderline. It's reasonable to pick Gavlin as better than all but the first four, in my opinion.

Marshall is just so confusing.

[Manassa]

I'll tell you Ray Robinson's best punch.

Right hook to the ribs, delivered with an inverted fist so the knuckles sink right in.

Yea, he could dazzle fighters with quick jabs and straights to the head, blast them in a round with scooping uppercuts and whipping hooks, but when faced by a tougher opponent; LaMotta, Basilio, Gavilan - the real moneymaker was the right hook. Even fighters of that caliber, though they wouldn't like to admit it, were shaken by that spear-point of a punch, a punch that sank deep like a knife to the hilt, right into that vulnerable area where the floating ribs are barely, barely protecting the vital organs beneath.

[Maxmomer]

He did it better than James Bond, that's how good he was!

[Robbi]

He was almost as great as a peak mike tyson.

Your a Tyson fanatic. Even when a thread comes along about SRR, you have to stick Tyson's name into the mix.

SRR was a very tough individual and beat a level of opposition Tyson can't hold a candle to.

[McGrain]

Do you mean that Williams and Booker are better in a pound for pound sense? If so I disagree.


It's fair enough to disagree with that.

But no, I didn't mean p4p neccesarily. I mean, the fights Robinson took - the fights he fought, the fighters he took on. You could put together a MUCH better team of guys made up of the guys he DIDN'T take on than the guys he did.

[Marciano Frazier]

I have Robinson at #1 p4p. I also have him at #1 WW and #1 MW.
I agree with the first two, but strongly disagree on the third and suggest you take a very hard look at Robinson's career at middleweight compared with those of Monzon and Hagler.

[werety]

I'm glad someone else finally noticed how great Robinson's right hook to the body was. Almost every crouching fighter he faced would get nailed with that right hook to the ribs and it seemed extremely effective.

[werety]

Thats pretty interesting Manassa I never knew her through that right with inverted knuckles. Do you know of any other fighter that used this punch as well as Robinson?

[Manassa]

Thats pretty interesting Manassa I never knew her through that right with inverted knuckles. Do you know of any other fighter that used this punch as well as Robinson?

Can't think of any. He crucified Basilio with it. Actually, saying that, Basilio used the punch very well too, but it was more of a taxing inside bludgeon than a sharpshooting lightning bolt.

[Robbi]

Can't think of any. He crucified Basilio with it.

I'm pretty sure he whacked Turpin a good few times with that punch when he assualted him during the rematch against the ropes.

[Manassa]

LaMotta wasn't sleeping easy after their sixth fight either.

[Robbi]

LaMotta wasn't sleeping easy after their sixth fight either.

That sure was manslaughter. Robinson should have been arrested for the beating he gave LaMotta that night.

"You never knocked me down Ray"

My response

"He maybe never knocked you down Jake, but he whopped your ass five times".

[werety]

Damn just watched the basilio fight again and wow did he nail him wit that one a lot. I think it was so effective because it was such a strange punch to use against a crouching fighter. Instead of trying to get an uppercut on the inside nailing them with that right around the side was much more unexpected and robinson nailed him right on that floating rib almost every time.

[Bill Butcher]

Yeah, that right punch to the back of the ribs fucked up both basilio & lamotta & probably many others.

Someone mentioned moore & charles, I dont think thats fair as they were much bigger than srr physically, even big enough to fight competitvely at hwt later on.

It still baffles me why ray never chased the maxim rematch, even tho he wasnt big enough for 175, his boxing talent was so high level that I truly believe srr could have beaten all but the very best lt-hwts, just look at how easily he was beating the much larger maxim, it was a fuckin cake-walk until the 13th.
Maybe a fight in dec or jan would have been better for robinson.
:lol:

[itliangladiator]

Contrary many beliefs, I don't have Sugar Ray at #1 pound for pound FOR MIDDLEWEIGHT (I do have him at #1 pound for pound all time though). I actually have Carlos Monzon at the #1 spot for middleweight. Many people tend to look at Ray's middleweight career while overlooking him as a welterweight. He was prolly by far the greatest welterweight in the history of the sport.
If Ray didnt take away his best middleweight years by taking a break from boxing my analysis might be different.

[McGrain]

That sure was manslaughter. Robinson should have been arrested for the beating he gave LaMotta that night.

"You never knocked me down Ray"

My response

"He maybe never knocked you down Jake, but he whopped your ass five times".


To be fair, one of those decisions was seen as unjust.

Tragic, but I can't remember which one.

John Garfield, if you read this, fill us in.

[john garfield]

To be fair, one of those decisions was seen as unjust.

Tragic, but I can't remember which one.

John Garfield, if you read this, fill us in.

Appreciate the vote of confidence, McGrain, but I never comment on fights I haven't seen live.

I thought Sugar's victory in '45 at the Garden was clear-cut.

[McGrain]

Appreciate the vote of confidence, McGrain, but I never comment on fights I haven't seen live.

Ah, to be in that position.

[Sonny Carson]

SRR was the complete package.

He was quick, powerful, skilled, tough. He was stopped once in 200 fights, due to exhaustion. He wasn't THAT slick, however. His KO % (which is good, but not great) may be misleading. He carried quite a few guys, often on orders from the Mob.
Ray Robinson was slick he had very good reflexes and movement. His defense wasn't great, but at times he could leave his hand's low and make an opponet miss with his head movement.

[PowerPuncher]

Charley Burley
Holman Williams
Eddie Booker
Archie Moore
Cocoa Kid
Lloyd Marshall
Ezzard Charles
Jack Chase.

I've limited myself here to fighters who may be better than every fighter that SRR ever fought. I'm not insisting he fight them all in addition. If he skips LaMotta, he can take on six of them.

You get the idea, i'm sure.

The fact that Charles and Moore had moved out of 160lbs when Robinson moved into the class has to be factored in here I think. Not sure when Booker/Marshall moved up.

A Burley fight definately should have happened. Same with Cocoa Kid & Williams.

[Shareef]

[quote=PowerPuncher]The fact that Charles and Moore had moved out of 160lbs when Robinson moved into the class has to be factored in here I think. quote]

exactly. Robinson's prime weight was the welterweight division while Charles and Moore are primarily known for there exploits in the light heavyweight division. And for the majority of Robinsons middleweight career Moore and Charles were tangling with heavyweights. Not facing either Moore or Charles shouldn't be held against him.

[Duodenum]

Someone mentioned moore & charles, I dont think thats fair as they were much bigger than srr physically, even big enough to fight competitvely at hwt later on.

It still baffles me why ray never chased the maxim rematch, even tho he wasnt big enough for 175, his boxing talent was so high level that I truly believe srr could have beaten all but the very best lt-hwts, just look at how easily he was beating the much larger maxim, it was a fuckin cake-walk until the 13th.
Maybe a fight in dec or jan would have been better for robinson.
:lol:You actually answered your own question with that reference to Moore. In Maxim's very next fight that December, Archie dethroned him, and SRR wanted no part of the Mongoose. I suspect it was Sugar's intention to retire after the Maxim fight, win or lose, knowing that Moore was due for a title short. He was probably planning to notch the LHW Title on his belt, then get out while the going was good, leaving Moore to be matched in a bid for the vacated championship (likely with Maxim).

[Duodenum]

Charley Burley
Holman Williams
Eddie Booker
Archie Moore
Cocoa Kid
Lloyd Marshall
Ezzard Charles
Jack Chase.

I've limited myself here to fighters who may be better than every fighter that SRR ever fought. I'm not insisting he fight them all in addition. If he skips LaMotta, he can take on six of them.

You get the idea, i'm sure.Eventually, Roy Jones Jr. got bombed out, just as Duran did against Hearns. Like Robby, RJJ came under some criticism for ducking certain competitors. Regardless, his number eventually came up. Robby's never did. Considering how many matches he had as an amateur and professional, the number of years he competed, and the age he was when he finished, surely he would have been laid out and stopped by punches at some point in his career, but it never happened.

Considering the number of bouts he had, one would expect him to have lost more than twice in his amateur and professional career by the time he dethroned LaMotta. The law of averages dictates that. With favorable judging, he could well have had a combined pro/am record of 224-0 by the time he challenged Maxim.

Hopefully, somebody will eventually post Robinson/Fusari on-line. (It's the only footage of Robby boxing as a WW that I've seen a clip of, although that was many moons ago.)

[McGrain]

The fact that Charles and Moore had moved out of 160lbs when Robinson moved into the class has to be factored in here I think. Not sure when Booker/Marshall moved up.

My man, those men would move down in a shot to fight Robinson in a flash. Both lived betwen divisions for some time. Booker never moved up in terms of overall size it was a question of fighting, same with Marshall, though his "smallness" was apparantley less obvious in the bigger division.

[Nemesis]

You actually answered your own question with that reference to Moore. In Maxim's very next fight that December, Archie dethroned him, and SRR wanted no part of the Mongoose. I suspect it was Sugar's intention to retire after the Maxim fight, win or lose, knowing that Moore was due for a title short. He was probably planning to notch the LHW Title on his belt, then get out while the going was good, leaving Moore to be matched in a bid for the vacated championship (likely with Maxim).

he had verbally agreed to fight Moore(way after the Maxim fight) for the title, until Moore chose to fight a fighting fisherman from Canada

[TIGEREDGE]

It's fair enough to disagree with that.

But no, I didn't mean p4p neccesarily. I mean, the fights Robinson took - the fights he fought, the fighters he took on. You could put together a MUCH better team of guys made up of the guys he DIDN'T take on than the guys he did.

the only guy you could argue that he dodged was burley. ezzad charles and archie moore were above his weight

[TIGEREDGE]

Tyson would flatten SRR in a single round.

pack in the toilet talk

[Robbi]

Tyson would flatten SRR in a single round.

Maybe because he was 60lbs heavier. Robinson was the greatest fighter that ever lived, Tyson wasn't even the greatest fighter of the 80's.

[Jbuz]

Maybe because he was 60lbs heavier. Robinson was the greatest fighter that ever lived, Tyson wasn't even the greatest fighter of the 80's.

Don't take the bait. :patsch

[Duodenum]

he had verbally agreed to fight Moore(way after the Maxim fight) for the title, until Moore chose to fight a fighting fisherman from CanadaAs great and tough as Ray was, do you think he could have survived that right hand at the age and weight he would have been boxing Durelle at? (Jack Sharkey said Arch was cross-eyed after that first knockdown, and we all know Moore identified that shot as the hardest punch he was ever hit by.)

[MagnificentMatt]

Ray Robinson was slick he had very good reflexes and movement. His defense wasn't great, but at times he could leave his hand's low and make an opponet miss with his head movement.

Pretty much, he was like Ali, or Ali was like him rather.. They did not have anything near great defense, but they were always punching, so when they needed to slip a punch they could due to their speed.. Far from Pernell Whitaker though:bbb.

Ali and Sugar Rays style were very simliar.. They both loved to use 1-2s, had good footwork, and thought the best defense was a great offense. (Althought from what i've seen Robinson through a bigger array of punches, like he used uppercuts a lot more.)

[Nemesis]

As great and tough as Ray was, do you think he could have survived that right hand at the age and weight he would have been boxing Durelle at? (Jack Sharkey said Arch was cross-eyed after that first knockdown, and we all know Moore identified that shot as the hardest punch he was ever hit by.)

I think Robinson would throw more punches in the opening 5 rounds but once Archie starts to land, I could see Robinson going into survival mode until the end and losing a wide-ish decision

[Duodenum]

I think Robinson would throw more punches in the opening 5 rounds but once Archie starts to land, I could see Robinson going into survival mode until the end and losing a wide-ish decisionThat's a fair assessment. When Robby moved in close to Maxim, he was scoring by ducking underneath, before skipping back out again. I doubt he'd be getting below Archie's guard. Maxim boxed tall against Sugar, a different posture than Moore would be likely to use. Robinson would have to try outmaneuvering him, a challenging order to carry out over the 15 round distance.

[mcvey]

That's a fair assessment. When Robby moved in close to Maxim, he was scoring by ducking underneath, before skipping back out again. I doubt he'd be getting below Archie's guard. Maxim boxed tall against Sugar, a different posture than Moore would be likely to use. Robinson would have to try outmaneuvering him, a challenging order to carry out over the 15 round distance.
Maxim had a top chin but he didnt have power ,Archie had top power ,even when he was an old man ,SRR,as great as he was would be in jeopardy whenever he was in range of Moores punches,imo.

[Manassa]

How well Robinson did or didn't do against Maxim tells us practically nothing about how he'd do against Moore.

[mcvey]

How well Robinson did or didn't do against Maxim tells us practically nothing about how he'd do against Moore.
Duodenum probably drew Maxim into the mix because he was the only LH Robinson met.

[George W Hedge]

Hard to see srr beating moore as archie was big AND good where as maxim was just big.

Id be very confident of a robinson victory vs maxim on any other night but not vs moore, just dont see it.

Saying that tho.... I still regard ray as the no1 p4p king, great fighter.

:good