Did Ali Fight Find The Antidote

[McGrain]

To his own particular brand of poison?

In defeating Frazier 2/3, did he beat the heavyweight who, in the history of the entire division, was the most difficult for him stylisticly?

If so, is this an even greater achievment than his composite resume (Excluding Frazier)? I mean, does he deserve more credit for pulling this of than for beating the other top fighters he met?

[My dinner with Conteh]

The antidote in the second fight was holding a lot and having a lenient ref that would allow such tactics.

[McGrain]

The antidote in the second fight was holding a lot and having a lenient ref that would allow such tactics.


Regardless, if he'd defeated the one guy in heavyweight history best equipped to beat him, some achievment.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Regardless, if he'd defeated the one guy in heavyweight history best equipped to beat him, some achievment.


But Frazier was a bit past his best, regardless.

[McGrain]

But Frazier was a bit past his best, regardless.

Ali was also past his best.

Niether could be considered a has been.

And regardless it was the first fight with Ali that really hurt Joe.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Ali fought a great fight in 1971 and a peak Frazier only just beat him. It's fair to say Ali wasn't quite at his very best.

[TBooze]

In fight two, Ali figured him out big time, it was Frazier's amazing sprit that kept him on his feet in fights two and three.

[Stonehands89]

Well, McGrain, I have to agree with Conteh and say that both subsequent victories are a bit tainted. I would be curious to know what might have been had Mercante reffed all three fights. I suspect Ali would have had more problems. Mercante wasn't having all that holding and clinching.

Ali had stylistic problems with Norton too.

I suspect that the best antidote for Ali would have been poisoning Eddie Futch. Heh.

[Marnoff]

Frazier was difficult stylistically, but Tyson would have been more so - just in regards to your statement that Frazier may have been the most stylistically challenging of all Heavyweights to Ali.

[mightyd40]

mcgrain that new avatar pic is the greatest.........liston is the man

[McGrain]

mcgrain that new avatar pic is the greatest.........liston is the man


It's a beaut isn't it? It's the best photograph i've ever seen of Liston.

[janitor]

To his own particular brand of poison?


I am inclined to say no because he never really solved the stylistic problem's posed by Frazier or Norton for that matter.

[McGrain]

I am inclined to say no because he never really solved the stylistic problem's posed by Frazier.


Which is my point really. Popular opinion holds that every fighter has a fighter that poses the greatest threat regardless of how good because of their style. Now Ali is unlucky enough to share an era with the guy who, if he had fought in the fifties, we would all post as being the guy who "would give Ali fits" - he is made to fight Ali. And Ali beat him twice.

You have spoken about Tunney, perhaps, being the one guy you would be keen to steer Louis clear of - imagine he held two wins over Gene.

[janitor]

Which is my point really. Popular opinion holds that every fighter has a fighter that poses the greatest threat regardless of how good because of their style. Now Ali is unlucky enough to share an era with the guy who, if he had fought in the fifties, we would all post as being the guy who "would give Ali fits" - he is made to fight Ali.

Frazier genuinely is one of the hardest possible opponents for Ali from any era. My only criticism is that he did not adapt his style substantialy with each outing.

[Muskyrat]

Well, McGrain, I have to agree with Conteh and say that both subsequent victories are a bit tainted. I would be curious to know what might have been had Mercante reffed all three fights. I suspect Ali would have had more problems. Mercante wasn't having all that holding and clinching.

Ali had stylistic problems with Norton too.

I suspect that the best antidote for Ali would have been poisoning Eddie Futch. Heh.

agree with you about norton those two seemed to give ali more problems than anybody else he faced

[quintonjacksonfan]

How did the ref help Ali in the second fight? Wasn't he the one

who thought the second round was over when Fraizer was badly hurt

[McGrain]

agree with you about norton those two seemed to give ali more problems than anybody else he faced

Norton, even in his winning effort, did not give Ali anything like the trouble that Frazier gave him in his third and losing effort.

[Duodenum]

No. During Ali's career, Ken Norton was actually his stylistic kryptonite more than Frazier. Muhammad's lean was actually geared to slip the hook to his head in mid ring, and he made Joe miss it frequently. Smoke performed as well as he did because of sheer heart and greatness. Ali also had a nasty tendency to give away bodyshots. Forfeiting rounds and points like that isn't generally a good idea, even if he didn't wear down in taking them. Ali had much more trouble with Smoke than a smarter boxer with Muhammad's physical gifts would have had to overcome.

If Norton had punched at Ali with the sort of aggression Frazier employed, there would have been no question about Ken winning all three of their matches. Norton was far more cautious and reserved in attacking Ali than he should have been.

The team best equipped to defeat Ali was Holmes/Futch. Larry had the jab necessary to throw Ali off his rhythym, and Eddie helped Larry develop the sort of untelegraphed lead right which Folley was able to clip Muhammad with multiple times early. With Futch, Larry also cultivated the tactic of delivering point scoring bodyshots from outside, the key element of his final successful defense against Carl Williams. Again, Ali didn't mind giving away bodyshots, but Futch would have advised Larry to use his to build up points, not to try wearing Muhammad down. Larry valued Futch's counsel more than Ali did Dundee's. (This is part of why Larry was so upset that Futch sat it out when Holmes fought Mike Spinks. In contrast, Ali disdained Dundee when giving his blessing for Angelo to work for Jimmy Ellis against him.)

[Cojimar 1945]

I'd be exceptionately doubtful that Frazier would be Ali's toughest challenge out of all the heavyweights. In the years since Ali we have seen more big, athletic heavyweights with formidable offensive capabilities. I would think Ali might have more difficulty with guys like Wladimir Klitschko or Lennox Lewis than the far smaller, less powerful Frazier.

[prime]

Ali's poison was Frazier, not so much because of "style", but because of the whole package that was Joe Frazier. No other fighter brings together that indomitable, hungry heart, chin, endurance and kryptonic left hook.

[JIm Broughton]

I agree with C1945..It would be very interesting indeed to see how Ali would fare against a prime Lennox Lewis or Wlad Klitschko, 2 big men with very good skills, particularly jabs. Ali looked his best against smaller fighters like Frazier,Quarry,Bonavena,Folley etc..Against a taller man with a jab(Norton,Bugner,Foster) he looked hittable. Lewis and Wlad have good jabs and are both 6'5" 240 solid athletic pounds with good boxing skills. I don't count the Holmes fight because Ali was completely shot but I think that fight gave us a hint as to how much trouble even a young Ali would've had with Holmes. This was'nt a short man trying to lunge at him but a tall man with good skills and a quick pair of hands punctuated by you guessed it, a good stiff fast jab. When you really look at all the great champs of the past, you(or I anyway) get the sense that they were perfect for the times that they flourished in. That thier respective styles were tailor made for the opponents that they faced. Would Marciano go undefeated in the 70's, 90's or today? Would Louis be champ for nearly a dozen years in the same time period? As much as we love the old timers I think the answer is a clear no.

[radianttwilight]

Frazier wasn't the poison. He had a huge heart, which was how he won the first fight and stayed standing in the second too, but stylistically I don't think we was very dangerous to Ali.

Ali would've had a much bigger challenge with someone fast and dangerous. Frazier's "dangerous" was late-round workrate, accumulation, and that left hook, but that's not the kind of "dangerous" that troubles Ali. Ali never fought any REALLY dangerous punchers - Foreman was slow and dumb, Shavers was even slower although not quite as stupid, and Liston was a plodder (and/or fixed).

Really, who WAS the most dangerous puncher Ali fought?

Ali excelled in the late rounds of a 15 round fight, that's a fact. Frazier excelled in the late rounds of a 15 round fight. Frazier was good at pummelling tired opponents in the championship rounds, which didn't trouble Ali cause he liked to do the same thing.

[Marciano Frazier]

In fight two, Ali figured him out big time,
No, actually, Ali just got away with an absolutely ludicrous amount of fouling and escaped with a narrow win.

Watch the beginning of every round, and nearly every exchange; Frazier comes tearing in with some long hooks, and then tries to come after Ali up close where he's most effective, but every time, Ali grabs him behind the head and pulls his head down and in, then reaches his right arm around to shackle Frazier's left. This isn't just the hand resting behind the head, which is a natural position for a taller fighter with a smaller man on the inside, but in fact you can see Ali is forcefully pulling Frazier in and pushing down on his head while clamping down on his left. This is flagrantly illegal and severely inhibits Frazier's attack style, but the referee is completely negligent and never even warns him about it.

[TBooze]

No, actually, Ali just got away with an absolutely ludicrous amount of fouling and escaped with a narrow win.

Watch the beginning of every round, and nearly every exchange; Frazier comes tearing in with some long hooks, and then tries to come after Ali up close where he's most effective, but every time, Ali grabs him behind the head and pulls his head down and in, then reaches his right arm around to shackle Frazier's left. This isn't just the hand resting behind the head, which is a natural position for a taller fighter with a smaller man on the inside, but in fact you can see Ali is forcefully pulling Frazier in and pushing down on his head while clamping down on his left. This is flagrantly illegal and severely inhibits Frazier's attack style, but the referee is completely negligent and never even warns him about it.

Ali got away with it and won comfortably, the ref dicates the rules, if you get away with it, it is not illegal. Ali found away a way to grab around the neck get away with it and used it thoughout his second reign, it is a form of ring eneralship and to a degree an art.

[achillesthegreat]

The antidote in the second fight was holding a lot and having a lenient ref that would allow such tactics.
For every clinch I'm sure there was a low blow or head rubbing from Frazier. Not to mention it takes two tango in a clinch.

In regards to the thread. It is an interesting point but very hard to overlook fighters with stylistic similarities i.e. Jack Dempsey.

[Longhhorn71]

I think Norton gave Ali more real "boxing" problems than Frazier and he should have been awarded 2 of 3 fights on points over Ali.

Norton took away Ali's jab which was Ali's primary weapon.

When a 4th fight was being proposed between Norton & Ali, Ali said, "Not fighting that turkey again" in reference to Norton.

[Marciano Frazier]

For every clinch I'm sure there was a low blow or head rubbing from Frazier.
Uh, no- watch the film and count for yourself.

Not to mention it takes two tango in a clinch.
No, it doesn't, at least not in this case. It's not really clinching. Watch the fight for yourself- Frazier comes in throwing punches and looking to get in close and go to work, and Ali consistently reaches out and forcefully grabs him, then pulls him in and pushes his head down while reaching around and grabbing his right arm, thus preventing Frazier from doing his most effective offensive work. This is patently illegal and Ali is doing it on a consistent basis, but the referee ignores it throughout the duration of the fight.

[Marciano Frazier]

Ali got away with it and won comfortably,
Actually, nearly all of the rounds were really pretty close and nondescript. I'll say Ali edges him on the basis of his early lead, but on a legitimate scorecard, he won far from comfortably.

the ref dicates the rules, if you get away with it, it is not illegal. Ali found away a way to grab around the neck get away with it and used it thoughout his second reign, it is a form of ring eneralship and to a degree an art.
So, supposing the referees decided that when I was fighting, kicks to the groin were completely legal, and then I went around beating top boxers by kick-in-the-groin knockouts and getting credit for it, would you declare me a great fighter and a legend of the art of boxing? It's true that Ali was doing what he could get away with in using those tactics, and one can hardly blame him, but the point is that he shouldn't have been allowed to get away with it, and it made a very significant difference to the outcome of that fight.

[TBooze]

So, supposing the referees decided that when I was fighting, kicks to the groin were completely legal, and then I went around beating top boxers by kick-in-the-groin knockouts and getting credit for it, would you declare me a great fighter and a legend of the art of boxing? It's true that Ali was doing what he could get away with in using those tactics, and one can hardly blame him, but the point is that he shouldn't have been allowed to get away with it, and it made a very significant difference to the outcome of that fight.

If a referee will let you get away with kicking to groin, then you would be mad not to take advantage.

The truth is the record books only show winners and losers, and at the very top of the greatest sport in the world, taking advantage of anything you can sometimes is difference between winning and losing, so IMO you cannot blame Ali for getting the job done.

[achillesthegreat]

Uh, no- watch the film and count for yourself.

No, it doesn't, at least not in this case. It's not really clinching. Watch the fight for yourself- Frazier comes in throwing punches and looking to get in close and go to work, and Ali consistently reaches out and forcefully grabs him, then pulls him in and pushes his head down while reaching around and grabbing his right arm, thus preventing Frazier from doing his most effective offensive work. This is patently illegal and Ali is doing it on a consistent basis, but the referee ignores it throughout the duration of the fight.
Ali got a hameorrage in his hip for the first fight. Plus he was pissing blood for a number of weeks. So yes I do think Frazier came in with fair share of hip shots.

It does take two to tango in the clinch. Frazier could have stayed busy and he could have pushed Ali off. Instead he was defused and this is the reasoning the ref uses for not doing more.

Ali was simply better when it came to wrestling in the clinch. As good as an inside fighter as Frazier is he couldn't defuse Alis clinching.

Clinching is supposedly illegal but so is punching with the inside of your glove, not closing your fist, ducking under the waist etc BUT given the nature of the game it happens ALOT and isn't really penalised.