Rate These Defensive Prodigies... Pep, Pea, Locche, Benitez, PBF

[acb]

Damm, this is truely difficult, but here is how my list would go off the top of my head. Also, if there is a fighter you would like to throw in your top 5, please do. I know some will have issues with my selection.

1. Pea (the best Ive seen, period)
2. Pep (incredible foot movement, all time classic defensive magician)
3. Locche (nearly impossible to hit clean)
4. Benitez (Radar, great use of slips in his day)
5. PBF (Does it all defensively)

[MagnificentMatt]

Damm, this is truely difficult, but here is how my list would go off the top of my head. Also, if there is a fighter you would like to throw in your top 5, please do. I know some will have issues with my selection.

1. Pea (the best Ive seen, period)
2. Pep (incredible foot movement, all time classic defensive magician)
3. Locche (nearly impossible to hit clean)
4. Benitez (Radar, great use of slips in his day)
5. PBF (Does it all defensively)

Ditto.

[SteveO]

At the risk of being called a nuthugger, I'd put prime Toney in there.

[acb]

At the risk of being called a nuthugger, I'd put prime Toney in there.

But at the expense of who?

[PH|LLA]

Hopkins without a doubt

[acb]

Hopkins without a doubt

Again, at the expense of which on my list.

[MagnificentMatt]

Again, at the expense of which on my list.
Id put Toney over Hopkins for defense..

Wouldnt replace anyone from that list for either one of them though.

[PH|LLA]

Again, at the expense of which on my list.
well I'm gonna catch alot of flak but i think Hopkins is a better defensive fighter than Floyd. I've barely ever seen him hit flush and never seen him hurt (though i know he has been). He lost against Taylor for lack of offense, definately not any defensive mistakes (he barely got touched in those fights).

While Floyd well i've seen him knocked down against Zab Judah and get hit flush a bunch of times.

[Robbi]

Hopkins worth a mention, no question.

[MagnificentMatt]

well I'm gonna catch alot of flak but i think Hopkins is a better defensive fighter than Floyd. I've barely ever seen him hit flush and never seen him hurt (though i know he has been). He lost against Taylor for lack of offense, definately not any defensive mistakes (he barely got touched in those fights).

While Floyd well i've seen him knocked down against Zab Judah and get hit flush a bunch of times.

You've seen Floyd get hit *flush* a bunch of times? I missed something :hey

[kg0208]

well I'm gonna catch alot of flak but i think Hopkins is a better defensive fighter than Floyd. I've barely ever seen him hit flush and never seen him hurt (though i know he has been). He lost against Taylor for lack of offense, definately not any defensive mistakes (he barely got touched in those fights).

While Floyd well i've seen him knocked down against Zab Judah and get hit flush a bunch of times.

But Hopkins was also dropped two times in the same fight I believe.

[acb]

well I'm gonna catch alot of flak but i think Hopkins is a better defensive fighter than Floyd. I've barely ever seen him hit flush and never seen him hurt (though i know he has been). He lost against Taylor for lack of offense, definately not any defensive mistakes (he barely got touched in those fights).

While Floyd well i've seen him knocked down against Zab Judah and get hit flush a bunch of times.

No I wouldnt give you flak for that. I think Floyd is the better defensive fighter but Bernard is amazing at what he does.

[MagnificentMatt]

My thing is, Bernard is just a master, you watch him and you think, damn hes good.

When you see Floyd, or Pernell, your thinking, how the hell did he just do that?

[PH|LLA]

But Hopkins was also dropped two times in the same fight I believe.
yea against secundo Mercado but I've never seen that fight as it was in 1994.

[PH|LLA]

You've seen Floyd get hit *flush* a bunch of times? I missed something :hey
Against Judah, Corley, Ndou, Castillo.. more than once in each of these fights. To his credit I think Floyd has a very solid beard

[MagnificentMatt]

yea against secundo Mercado but I've never seen that fight as it was in 1994.

Also: In 94 Bernard was very aggressive and nothing like the defensive master he is now..

[acb]

Anyways someone post there list.

[brooklyn1550]

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Willie Pep
3. Nicolino Locche
4. Wilfred Benitez
5. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

[Rock0052]

1. Locche
2. Pep
3. Whitaker
4. Benitez
5. Mayweather

[huki]

1. Whitaker


2. Benitez
3. Floyd







4. Pep
5. Locche

[Sweet Pea]

In terms of defense purely, and not all around skills:

1. Locche-Capable of staying in the pocket and not just rolling punches at least as good as a Toney or PBF(better really), but capable of ducking and weaving them as well, all in a tight space. Amazing, and most prime footage is not available.
2. Benitez-In his PRIME, his slipping skills were sublime, not as flashy as Pep's or Pea's, but the way he ducked and weaved full on combos in the corner against Hearns was amazing, and his subtle slips of the head in every fight was excellent.
3. Whitaker-Not many flaws, but could be caught at times, resulting in flash knockdowns.
4. Pep-Showed that a tall, rough fighter like Angott or Saddler could use their reach and tactics to rough him up.
5. Mayweather-Susceptible to being roughed up when he goes into his shell or lays on the ropes.

[Sweet Pea]

1. Whitaker


2. Benitez
3. Floyd







4. Pep
5. LoccheYou've clearly not seen much Locche, other than perhaps a HL of his rematch with Cervantes, when he was past his prime. Still displayed excellent defense.

[brooklyn1550]

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Willie Pep
3. Nicolino Locche
4. Wilfred Benitez
5. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

After watching more of Benitez in the past could months, I'd put him higher and lower Pep.

[Sweet Pea]

After watching more of Benitez in the past could months, I'd put him higher and lower Pep.I assume you've seen his fight with Hearns, where even though he lost handily on the scorecards, he showed amazing evasive skills, even against furious Hearns flurries. Hearns was actually hesitant to throw the jab at certain points in that fight because of this, and because Benitez was starting to time it and counter it at one point(though not to full effect).

Locche is one I've seen a bit more footage of(his full fight with Fuji, not just the Youtube clip) recently and he's really entertaining and amazing to watch. Immensely defensively skilled. In the line of fire of a big puncher the entire time, ducking, weaving, rolling, and countering perfectly at every opportunity. Masterclass performance that one.

[Asterion]

Damm, this is truely difficult, but here is how my list would go off the top of my head. Also, if there is a fighter you would like to throw in your top 5, please do. I know some will have issues with my selection.

1. Pea (the best Ive seen, period)
2. Pep (incredible foot movement, all time classic defensive magician)
3. Locche (nearly impossible to hit clean)
4. Benitez (Radar, great use of slips in his day)
5. PBF (Does it all defensively)


1. Pep
2. Pea
3. Mayweather
4. Benitez
5. Locche

[Rock0052]

In terms of defense purely, and not all around skills:

1. Locche-Capable of staying in the pocket and not just rolling punches at least as good as a Toney or PBF(better really), but capable of ducking and weaving them as well, all in a tight space. Amazing, and most prime footage is not available.
2. Benitez-In his PRIME, his slipping skills were sublime, not as flashy as Pep's or Pea's, but the way he ducked and weaved full on combos in the corner against Hearns was amazing, and his subtle slips of the head in every fight was excellent.
3. Whitaker-Not many flaws, but could be caught at times, resulting in flash knockdowns.
4. Pep-Showed that a tall, rough fighter like Angott or Saddler could use their reach and tactics to rough him up.
5. Mayweather-Susceptible to being roughed up when he goes into his shell or lays on the ropes.
Excellent post. While there's clearly no slouches among these 5, I have to give the nod to Locche. He didn't have the speed, and definitely not the power (which is saying something), of anyone else on the list- so for him to have been so successful based purely on his defense in the pocket is enough for me to put him at #1. Another interesting fact is that he'd actually spark up and smoke in between rounds! His corner would hold up a towel, and let him take a few drags to "recharge". While that doesn't mean much in a ranking like this, imagine how demoralizing it was to fight a guy like that.

I posted a couple Youtube clips in the Classic section for anyone wanting to check out a little bit of Locche. I'd love to see prime footage of him.

Edit: Here's the thread with the clips: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[brooklyn1550]

Locche is one I've seen a bit more footage of(his full fight with Fuji, not just the Youtube clip) recently and he's really entertaining and amazing to watch. Immensely defensively skilled. In the line of fire of a big puncher the entire time, ducking, weaving, rolling, and countering perfectly at every opportunity. Masterclass performance that one.

I haven't seen much of Locche other than the footage out there on YouTube. Even in the clips and highlight, there is enough for me to see how defensively gifted he was.

Do you know of any links to download his fghts or sites that have his fights for sale?

[Sweet Pea]

I haven't seen much of Locche other than the footage out there on YouTube. Even in the clips and highlight, there is enough for me to see how defensively gifted he was.

Do you know of any links to download his fghts or sites that have his fights for sale?You need to have the right media player, but here's the link to his fight with Fuji.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[brooklyn1550]

Thanks

[ripcity]

The more I see of Locche the more impresed of his defensive skills I become.

[sues2nd]

Damm, this is truely difficult, but here is how my list would go off the top of my head. Also, if there is a fighter you would like to throw in your top 5, please do. I know some will have issues with my selection.

1. Pea (the best Ive seen, period)
2. Pep (incredible foot movement, all time classic defensive magician)
3. Locche (nearly impossible to hit clean)
4. Benitez (Radar, great use of slips in his day)
5. PBF (Does it all defensively)

Hopkins, Jones, Toney, Wright, Ali...all deserve mention...but going by the guys you put in there, thats not a bad order.

[Farmboxer]

1. Pep
2. Locche
3. Benitez
4. Pea
5. Mayweather

As far as head movement in his prime, Roberto Duran is extremely underrated. Anyone see Duran work the speed bag with his head?! Absolutely incredible! It's a shame he partied too much.

[Sweet Pea]

Hopkins, Jones, Toney, Wright, Ali...all deserve mention...but going by the guys you put in there, thats not a bad order.I don't think Ali deserves much mention, certainly not more than Jones. Ali made far too many mistakes, and had them capitalized on by mediocre opponents like Cooper and Jones(as well as many others, but not as seriously) too often to be considered here. Jones may not have been technically perfect either, but had far better success than Ali with it due to his tendancy to never overcommit(something Ali did often).

[bestdefense117]

I agree with the list, but in my opinion one of the most underrated defenses in boxing is The Bronx Bull Jake Lamotta who I'd put 8 all time though nobady ever gives his defense recognition.

[bestdefense117]

Hopkins, Jones, Toney, Wright, Ali...all deserve mention...but going by the guys you put in there, thats not a bad order.
Also Lamotta, Duran ,and Frazier

[Farmboxer]

If you want to get freaked out, find a video of Duran working the speed bag with his head! Absolutely incredible! You won't believe it!

[Sweet Pea]

I agree with the list, but in my opinion one of the most underrated defenses in boxing is The Bronx Bull Jake Lamotta who I'd put 8 all time though nobady ever gives his defense recognition.His defense was underrated, but just because it's underrated doesn't mean you need to overrate the hell out of it by placing it #8 all time. That is ludicrous. I can name many better defensive fighters. You don't become known for having a granite chin by having great defense, you do it by taking a lot of flush shots, and Jake took A LOT of them. Underrated defense, but certainly nowhere near that high.

[Sweet Pea]

Also Lamotta, Duran ,and FrazierYou seem to like the pressure fighters who have decent head movement. Frazier and LaMotta both got hit FAR too much to be considered among the best defensive fighters, even if they did showcase good bob and weave/head movement often.

[bestdefense117]

You seem to like the pressure fighters who have decent head movement. Frazier and LaMotta both got hit FAR too much to be considered among the best defensive fighters, even if they did showcase good bob and weave/head movement often.
The bob and weave style is very underrated style, these days you see the Upright style of Winkt Wright or the Counter Punching style of Floyd Mayweather. I don't favor pressure fighters but I think if it's done right they can be a sight to behold. And Maybe I did rate Lamotta a little to high but this guy really is underrated defensively.

[albeziel]

Damm, this is truely difficult, but here is how my list would go off the top of my head. Also, if there is a fighter you would like to throw in your top 5, please do. I know some will have issues with my selection.

1. Pea (the best Ive seen, period)
2. Pep (incredible foot movement, all time classic defensive magician)
3. Locche (nearly impossible to hit clean)
4. Benitez (Radar, great use of slips in his day)
5. PBF (Does it all defensively)

You did a great list, mine will go as:
1. N. Locche
2. W. Benitez
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Pep
5. Floyd Mayweather

[bestdefense117]

If you want to get freaked out, find a video of Duran working the speed bag with his head! Absolutely incredible! You won't believe it!
I did see that video and I can do that too, just not as good.

[bestdefense117]

People are putting Ali on their lists. Ali took so many shots and wasn't one of the greatest defensively.

[Farmboxer]

Ali was excellent in his prime, moved a lot, but within his second part of his career he lost a lot, it's a shame.

Duran would move his on the ropes extremely well, also took the shock of a punch off.

[bestdefense117]

Ali was excellent in his prime, moved a lot, but within his second part of his career he lost a lot, it's a shame.

Duran would move his on the ropes extremely well, also took the shock of a punch off.
Ali is what Boxers and trainers call a runner which means what it sounds he is constantly moveing, runnig not wanting to exchange and when you swing and miss he swarms with counterpunches.

[bestdefense117]

Pep #1 hands down. This guy was so tricky. He won a round without throwing a punch. He could turn you and you and most of his KOs were because guys would collapse from fatigue. He was a boxing great.

[Sweet Pea]

Ali was excellent in his prime, moved a lot, but within his second part of his career he lost a lot, it's a shame.Ali got hit just as much in the first part of his career as the second part, in fact a lot of what I mentioned in my previous post comes from watching footage of a younger Ali. Took a lot of risks, but didn't seem to realize the danger he put himself in, such as throwing shoe-shine punches against a puncher in close range and trying to skip back out with his hands low, which lead to him getting caught quite a few times with flush shots, and hurt a few times as well. He just didn't seem to realize that the opponent would actually hit him if he left himself completely open. Became a much smarter fighter later on, but lost a lot of his physical ability as well.

[bestdefense117]

Ali got hit just as much in the first part of his career as the second part, in fact a lot of what I mentioned in my previous post comes from watching footage of a younger Ali. Took a lot of risks, but didn't seem to realize the danger he put himself in, such as throwing shoe-shine punches against a puncher in close range and trying to skip back out with his hands low, which lead to him getting caught quite a few times with flush shots, and hurt a few times as well. He just didn't seem to realize that the opponent would actually hit him if he left himself completely open. Became a much smarter fighter later on, but lost a lot of his physical ability as well.
I think Ali learned his after Norton broke his jaw.

[Farmboxer]

Ali was much better before the US Government took away three years of his career. We have seen too many of his fights during that time. Ali had so much natural talent, which made him lazy in training, this started to hurt him after the forced layoff. A fighter like Ali can not afford to take time off as he depended on his speed for everything. Ali had a very underrated right hand, great jab, but his left hook was nothing.

[bestdefense117]

Ali was much better before the US Government took away three years of his career. We have seen too many of his fights during that time. Ali had so much natural talent, which made him lazy in training, this started to hurt him after the forced layoff. A fighter like Ali can not afford to take time off as he depended on his speed for everything. Ali had a very underrated right hand, great jab, but his left hook was nothing.
This is a tread about defense not jabs,lefthooks,or righthands.

[ripcity]

How are we defineing defeesive? The ability to slip and duck making your opoent miss you completly? The ability to block punches? The usage of hight and reach keeping the propper distance to avoide getting hit?

[pryorgatti]

Good thread.

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Willie Pep
3. Wilfredo Benitez
4. Nicolino Locche
5. Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Guys like Miguel Canto, Roberto Duran or even Mike Tyson deserves a mention though.

[red cobra]

Speed and running should not be confused with defensive genius.

[Pimp C]

Speed and running should not be confused with defensive genius.
:huh

[sues2nd]

I don't think Ali deserves much mention, certainly not more than Jones. Ali made far too many mistakes, and had them capitalized on by mediocre opponents like Cooper and Jones(as well as many others, but not as seriously) too often to be considered here. Jones may not have been technically perfect either, but had far better success than Ali with it due to his tendancy to never overcommit(something Ali did often).

Ali's head movement was otherwordly. Same for his body movement. For a heavy, he was amazing defensively....but gets overlooked often because of his offensive gifts.

And remember, Im talking PRIME Ali...not the one who held on way too long.

This one...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[emanuel_augustus]

At the risk of being called a nuthugger, I'd put prime Toney in there.

What Toney did is different from the guys on the list. Toney was a counterpuncher who would roll and counter, old style.

If we're talking just pure defense, as in, you can't hit me, he doesn't belong on the list.

However, if we're talking, I'll make you miss large percentages of the time then make you seriously pay, he's there, at least in the modern era.

For just pure defensive wizardry, my vote goes to Pea.

I have only seen grainy footage of Locche, not much of Benitez and not much of Pep, so it's a bit hard to rank them.

[Haye]

A prodigy is basicly a highly touted prospect. These guys are not prodigies. But anyway, I pretty much agree with your rankings.

[joekirkbycobra]

sweet pea
willie
pbf
benitez
locche (i have seen the least of him out the 5)

[ripcity]

In terms of defense I think Loche is the best.

[Cabannero]

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Willie Pep
3. Wilfredo Benitez
4. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
5. Nicolino Loche

I saw two Locce fights - Cervantez rematch and Japanese bum. Nothing special. James Toney could be put on the list at the expense of him.

[acb]

I saw two Locce fights - Cervantez rematch and Japanese bum. Nothing special. James Toney could be put on the list at the expense of him.

No.

[Cabannero]

No.
Yes.

At least I argued why. Loche opposition was questionable in general. Absolute majority of his fights were in Argentina and still he has plenty of draws. If he was that good why he didn't fight Ortiz in USA or Puerto-Rico?

[acb]

Yes.

At least I argued why. Loche opposition was questionable in general. Absolute majority of his fights were in Argentina and still he has plenty of draws. If he was that good why he didn't fight Ortiz in USA or Puerto-Rico?

Your assesment of his fights is based on youtube, I assume. I think you may want to watch more of his fights.

Toney was a great defensive tactician but he also fought lazy at times and relied too much on his chin (see: took too many shots) to justify replacing Loche with him.

[RafaelGonzal]

You would have to look at the opposition each of these fighters had. To dispaly defense against a mediocre or really good fighter is one thing, to display defenseive genius while engaging the offensive greats of the game. That while at the same time engaging in some offense well thats the true measure.

Who among these defensive greats ever fought a guy like Tommy Hearns in their prime or a Roberto Duran? two great Offensive fighters....

Pep had Saddler who is comparable to a Hearns and guys like Chalky Wright so I say he steps out of the Pack. Benitez had a prime Hearns and a close to prime Duran and Cervantes when Benitez was 17

Hearns at 147 would KO PBF and Sweet Pea.
These two could go 15 with Hearns provided they display little offense and lose lopsided decisons in my opinion

Locche well he fought Cervantes and Ortiz, laguna, Brown. But he was all defense everything about him was off the defense and he had over 114 wins with only 4 losses and had only 14 Ko's, so he was all Defense.

here's how I see it based on that

1. Benitez
2. Pep
3. Locche
4. sweet Pea
4 PBF

Im tempted to put Locche 1st cause everything he did was off his defense and the guy was untouchable you dont go 115 fights never getting stopped and fighting the quality guys he did with ony 14 KO's without having incredible defense. Heck the guys nickname in Spanish is the untouchable.

Pep Fought at a time when there was only 8 weight classes so he could also be #1 he also fought hundreds of fights.

But Benitez against Hearns and Duran, probably because I saw these, prejudices my view. But my top 3 can be swapped and I would need to study it further to be truly conclusive but for now those are my picks.

[Farmboxer]

Pep was so good. Check out his fights.

[Cabannero]

Your assesment of his fights is based on youtube, I assume.

WBWA. Pretty good quality.

I think you may want to watch more of his fights.
Maybe, but I can't get'em. I think most of his hometown fights weren't recorded.

[Addie]

My thing is, Bernard is just a master, you watch him and you think, damn hes good.

When you see Floyd, or Pernell, your thinking, how the hell did he just do that?

Pernell is on a different level to floyd defensively. In fact, Pernell is on a different planet to anybody else ever when it comes to defensive boxing. Watching him duck a flurry of punches is beautiful to watch. He did it time and time again, against elite competition.

[Addie]

Ali is what Boxers and trainers call a runner which means what it sounds he is constantly moveing, runnig not wanting to exchange and when you swing and miss he swarms with counterpunches.

Ali deserves a mention, but he isn't in the same league defensively as pep, benitez, or whitaker. Still, people here are mentioning Frazier. That is ridiclious.

[Minotauro]

1. Nicolino Loche
2. Pernell Whittaker
3. Wilfred Benitez
4. Willie Pep (his fights in his prime are hard to find I have one but the quality is poor if i had more of his prime stuff he would probably be higher.)
5. Floyd Mayweather