Could Ali handle lennox lewis size?

[fg2227]

As an Ali fan i'm not so sure, What do you guys think?

[C. M. Clay II]

As an Ali fan i'm not so sure, What do you guys think?

He handled Williams, Terrel, A. B. Lewis, Mathis', etc. size, so I would think so.:good

[garymcfall]

I think he could handle it but with some difficulty, I think Lennox Lewis stylistically isnt a good match up for Ali. I really couldnt even bet on who would win head to head.

[fg2227]

Fair enough but none of these guys were even close to 250lbs.

[C. M. Clay II]

Fair enough but none of these guys were even close to 250lbs.

A) Neither is a prime Lewis.

B) Mathis weighed 256 in the Ali fight.

[Langford]

sure. Ali, when he matured, was not a little man. 227lbs, 6'3 is more than big enough. Especially, when reach and all the other important factors are taken in.

Reach, two inch difference for Lewis. Height, two inches. chest and waste about the same size.
two inches in height and twenty pounds give or take, not much difference to speak of, plus, ali is not going to be trading with Lewis, too smart and athletic to do that.

[JohnBKelly]

A veteran Holyfield managed to keep Lewis at bay for 24 rounds. Imagine how a peak Ali would take away Lennox's legs with constant movement. Ali has advantages in hand and foot speed, faster reflexes and a better chin. For Lennox Ali is a horror opponent.

[McGrain]

He handled everything else they shunted his way.

Yeah, he could have handled it. After all, Hollyfield did.

[RoccoMarciano]

Of course he could, and would.

Could Lewis handle Foreman? That's probably a better question.

[Chaney]

With all these recent Lewis threads it seems a lot of people are giving Lewis #1 head to head slot. I don't buy it. IMO, Ali beats him and so does Joe Louis, Liston, Holmes and Foreman, to name a few.

I would probably be most confident of Ali beating Lewis, though. Maybe not in a spectacular win, but in a solid one.

[ChrisPontius]

227lbs, 6'3 is more than big enough.

Ali at 227 lbs is overweight. His best weight was between 210 and 220lb (not that that's a bad mark, just saying). For instance, when he came in underprepared in his first fight against Norton, he weighed in at 221lb. When he came in focused in the rematch he was at a trim 212lb and it made the difference, he won.



As for the topic question, sure, he can handle Lewis' size.
Whether Ali can handle someone of Lewis' size AND talent is a different question of course. Terrel, Mathis (fat) and others are not even close to having Lewis' talent and ability so it is fair to say he is untested here just like for instance Gene Tunney is untested against a talented 200+lb'er.
Ali does have more durability and speed than Lewis however. What happens if someone comes by with Lewis' size who has Ali's speed and durability and Lewis' power and adaptiveness? A different case, but another 50 years may well go by before that happens.

[RoccoMarciano]

What happens if someone comes by with Lewis' size who has Ali's speed and durability and Lewis' power and adaptiveness? A different case, but another 50 years may well go by before that happens.

Good hypothetical, Chris, but we are dealing with what has already occured. Ali handled guys as good as Lewis during his career; certainly equal in power, and pretty much the same size.

[ChrisPontius]

The guys Ali handled were nothing like Lewis. Foreman is not even close to having Lewis' jab, pacing, ring intelligence, technique, defense, accuracy (he barely hit Ali flush) or footwork. Chin goes to Foreman but that's a non-factor against Ali anyway.

Frazier is just a totally different fighter: a short, stocky pressure fighter.

Liston is somewhat similar but a LOT smaller and he was aging + undertrained. Despite what all mythical stories want to make you believe about the Godzilla Liston was, he was a mere 6'0" 212lbs compared to Lewis 6'5" and 245lbs. Liston was awefully slow. Liston is also much, much faster.
For instance, compare how Liston finished Williams on the ropes in their second fight to how Lewis finished Botha. Liston throws very slow, almost telegraphed punches and in very slow succesion. Lewis throws 3 dynamite knockout blows within a second and the difference is telling. Lewis also had much more ring intelligence; Liston had no idea how to cut the ring off. Lewis had better heart as well.


So no, i wouldn't say he handled guys as good as Lewis. You could argue that Liston and Foreman punched as hard as Lewis (i don't think so, but i can imagine this position). But that doesn't account for much when you ignore all other factors i just lined out.

[RoccoMarciano]

The guys Ali handled were nothing like Lewis. Foreman is not even close to having Lewis' jab, pacing, ring intelligence, technique, defense, accuracy (he barely hit Ali flush) or footwork. Chin goes to Foreman but that's a non-factor against Ali anyway.

Frazier is just a totally different fighter: a short, stocky pressure fighter.

Liston is somewhat similar but a LOT smaller and he was aging + undertrained. Despite what all mythical stories want to make you believe about the Godzilla Liston was, he was a mere 6'0" 212lbs compared to Lewis 6'5" and 245lbs. Liston was awefully slow. Liston is also much, much faster.
For instance, compare how Liston finished Williams on the ropes in their second fight to how Lewis finished Botha. Liston throws very slow, almost telegraphed punches and in very slow succesion. Lewis throws 3 dynamite knockout blows within a second and the difference is telling. Lewis also had much more ring intelligence; Liston had no idea how to cut the ring off. Lewis had better heart as well.


So no, i wouldn't say he handled guys as good as Lewis. You could argue that Liston and Foreman punched as hard as Lewis (i don't think so, but i can imagine this position). But that doesn't account for much when you ignore all other factors i just lined out.

So is Liston a turtle or hare... something scrambled my brain in this post :lol:

[Langford]

Ali at 227 lbs is overweight. His best weight was between 210 and 220lb (not that that's a bad mark, just saying). For instance, when he came in underprepared in his first fight against Norton, he weighed in at 221lb. When he came in focused in the rematch he was at a trim 212lb and it made the difference, he won.

He wasn't so overweight that he couldn't box circles around Mathis.
Ali was a smart fighter, he knew when he had his work cut out for him. If a couple of extra pounds would work well vs Lewis, he would add them on. If he wanted to scale back and dance more, he could do that as well.

I admire your appreciation, for LL, I share the same. But the original question was, "is Ali big enough" I say of course he was.

The older they both got, the heavier they both got. Only natural. Some could say that Lewis best performance was 227 vs. Ruddock. If you want to tack on 15 more for Lewis over that performance, fine. But there is not a super, enormous weight difference there. Lets say Ali, 220. Lewis 245. Ali is going to be quicker of foot, faster of hand for sure. Better jaw most would say by anyone who isn't simply staunch Lewis.

[ironchamp]

Of course he could, and would.

Could Lewis handle Foreman? That's probably a better question.

Not only could Lewis handle Foreman, but I think he stops Big George. At their best I'd make Lewis the favorite. I tend to think that he tools, the size and the ability to keep George at bay and occupied long enough for him to wear down via an accumulation of punches and succumb to a TKO stoppage. George lacks the handspeed, defense and techinique for me to see it any other way. He does however have the one punch power. But so did Tua, Ruddock, Morrison, Briggs, Tyson (though poorly aged), Bruno, V Klitschko and Mercer. These fighters had, regardless of when he met them, enough power to get the job done. Like Larry Merchant would say "....he may have *****s in his armor, but look at all that armor..."

Regarding Ali-Lewis, it would be an uphill battle for Muhammad. Lewis's size and skill would definately make it interesting. Lennox has a great jab, he's pretty fluid for his size and he's technically competant. I think he uses his size and ability to his upmost advantage. If a fight were brewing at thier absolute best with both fighters fighting a unification bout to determine the true champ, though I pick Ali, I think a strong case can be made for Lennox.

[Sakura]

As an Ali fan i'm not so sure, What do you guys think?

Problem is that Lewis is also very skilled fighter in techical way...his top amateur...other than many alis opponent in 70th..only size doen't mean nothing, without skills.

[RoccoMarciano]

Not only could Lewis handle Foreman, but I think he stops Big George. At their best I'd make Lewis the favorite. I tend to think that he tools, the size and the ability to keep George at bay and occupied long enough for him to wear down via an accumulation of punches and succumb to a TKO stoppage. George lacks the handspeed, defense and techinique for me to see it any other way. He does however have the one punch power. But so did Tua, Ruddock, Morrison, Briggs, Tyson (though poorly aged), Bruno, V Klitschko and Mercer. These fighters had, regardless of when he met them, enough power to get the job done. Like Larry Merchant would say "....he may have *****s in his armor, but look at all that armor..."

Regarding Ali-Lewis, it would be an uphill battle for Muhammad. Lewis's size and skill would definately make it interesting. Lennox has a great jab, he's pretty fluid for his size and he's technically competant. I think he uses his size and ability to his upmost advantage. If a fight were brewing at thier absolute best with both fighters fighting a unification bout to determine the true champ, though I pick Ali, I think a strong case can be made for Lennox.

I rank Lewis as a top 10 hw all time. Probably the same for Foreman. You mention guys that don't even come close to either in class - Tua etc.

Why is Lewis such an uphill battle for Ali? I think Lewis could thank his lucky stars just getting by Foreman, to say nothing about Ali. You need to consider Ali fought against a WIDE variety of boxing talent, size, and style, and beat them all.. especially in his prime. Lewis never did.... crap, the guy got Koed by Rahman, who is hardly an ATG by anybody's stupid, imaginary stretching. I'll agree the Rahman thing is a fluke, but it is a fluke that would have never happened to Ali or Foreman in their primes.

In a unification match, prime vs prime, Ali kills Lewis... NO ifs, ands, or buts about it!

[ironchamp]

I rank Lewis as a top 10 hw all time. Probably the same for Foreman. You mention guys that don't even come close to either in class - Tua etc.

Why is Lewis such an uphill battle for Ali? I think Lewis could thank his lucky stars just getting by Foreman, to say nothing about Ali. You need to consider Ali fought against a WIDE variety of boxing talent, size, and style, and beat them all.. especially in his prime. Lewis never did.... crap, the guy got Koed by Rahman, who is hardly an ATG by anybody's stupid, imaginary stretching. I'll agree the Rahman thing is a fluke, but it is a fluke that would have never happened to Ali or Foreman in their primes.

In a unification match, prime vs prime, Ali kills Lewis... NO ifs, ands, or buts about it!

Don't be so short sighted, You're thinking about what Ali is going to do to Lennox moreso than what Lennox is going to do in return. Lennox was a great fighter and IMO would always offer a competitive fight for anyone.

Dont think of Ali the legend think of Ali the fighter.

Lewis was accurate he had pretty good handspeed for his size. Its not as clear cut as you think. Lewis could win. I agree with you and say Ali wins but if Lewis was around during Ali's era, it would be on of his toughest wins; not in the same grueling sense like how he suffered with Frazier but more like a strategic difficulty that he struggled with against Norton.

[DaveTheWave]

Ali would have trouble, no doubt in my mind- Lewis was a big physical guy, good jab himself and had good power (also decent movement). Ali wouldn't hurt Lewis, and Ali would stay respectful of the power. It's a winnable fight for Lewis, especially if he stays active. Bottom line is that Ali would have some "big" issues to overcome.

[Woddy]

You need to consider Ali fought against a WIDE variety of boxing talent, size, and style, and beat them all.. especially in his prime. Lewis never did....

Lewis fought numerous fighters who varied in size, talent and style. While I think Ali faced men who were a bit better, Lewis definately faced a wide array of great contenders. Ruddock, Morrison, Mason, Klitschko, Tua, Bruno, and several others who were all good figthers. In fact, few champions ever beat more men who were ranked than Lewis.



crap, the guy got Koed by Rahman, who is hardly an ATG by anybody's stupid, imaginary stretching. I'll agree the Rahman thing is a fluke, but it is a fluke that would have never happened to Ali or Foreman in their primes.


Foreman and Ali are among my favorite fighters, but let's not get one sided here. Foreman lost to Young, and Ali had his jaw broked by Norton. Lewis's defeat to Rahman came at the age of 35, which was hardly prime, and Ali lost to Spinks at a fairly comparable age of 36.



In a unification match, prime vs prime, Ali kills Lewis... NO ifs, ands, or buts about it!


If you were to say, Ali beats Lewis, then I'd agree. To say that he "kills" Lewis however, leaves plenty of room for some ifs, and's and buts. Ali defeated some big men like Mathis and Terell, but neither of those guys were anywhere near Lewis's equal in talent, skill or power.

I would favor Ali to win a decision over any version of Lewis, but make no mistake about it, Lewis could give Ali fits, and on the right night even beat him.

[RoccoMarciano]

and on the right night even beat him.

:lol: let's see the worst off night for Ali, and the most "on" night for Lewis... even then Ali kicks the Lion's butt.

If you think Lewis faced the same sort of competition Ali faced during their respective careers.... I'd like some of the drugs you are taking!

[fg2227]

Is it just me or is Lennox getting a bit overrated, in regards to george and lennox, i think style wise this is a nightmare for lennox.

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis fought numerous fighters who varied in size, talent and style. While I think Ali faced men who were a bit better, Lewis definately faced a wide array of great contenders. Ruddock, Morrison, Mason, Klitschko, Tua, Bruno, and several others who were all good figthers. In fact, few champions ever beat more men who were ranked than Lewis.




Foreman and Ali are among my favorite fighters, but let's not get one sided here. Foreman lost to Young, and Ali had his jaw broked by Norton. Lewis's defeat to Rahman came at the age of 35, which was hardly prime, and Ali lost to Spinks at a fairly comparable age of 36.




If you were to say, Ali beats Lewis, then I'd agree. To say that he "kills" Lewis however, leaves plenty of room for some ifs, and's and buts. Ali defeated some big men like Mathis and Terell, but neither of those guys were anywhere near Lewis's equal in talent, skill or power.

I would favor Ali to win a decision over any version of Lewis, but make no mistake about it, Lewis could give Ali fits, and on the right night even beat him.

Good post and welcome to the board. :good

[ChrisPontius]

Is it just me or is Lennox getting a bit overrated, in regards to george and lennox, i think style wise this is a nightmare for lennox.

I think it's the other way around actually.

Foreman's ideal situation is a fighter who comes at him like Frazier. A good, skilled boxer with a solid chin is his nightmare, watch the Ali and Young fights. And Lewis is exactly that: great footwork, sense of distance, pacing, punch variety etc. And he has great power to go with it contrary to the former two. He is very adept at landing straight, long punches from a distance which is exactly where Foreman's already leaky defense is open to.

[mcvey]

As an Ali fan i'm not so sure, What do you guys think?
Lewis is a gifted big man ,probably the best of them ,evry one semms to consider him a good mover ,I would say for his size he is ,but his footwork is light years behind Ali's,and it is that foot speed that would be the key in this fight,I like Ali by clear dec here.

[groove]

Could Lewis handle Ali's speed?

[Woddy]

=RoccoMarciano]:lol: let's see the worst off night for Ali, and the most "on" night for Lewis... even then Ali kicks the Lion's butt.



I already agreed that Ali should be favored in this fight. I don't think that it's unreanable to think that a sharp Lewis against a flat Ali could win on the right night though. Do you really think that Ken Norton was exponentially better than Lennox Lewis?


If you think Lewis faced the same sort of competition Ali faced during their respective careers.... I'd like some of the drugs you are taking![/


I didn't say that. I simply stated that Lewis defeated a very wide array of very good fighters, some of which ( but not all ) may have been contenders in Ali's day. Ali didn't always fight great men either.

I still feel that Ali was a better fighter, but I also think that you're really short changing Lewis

[Sizzle]

Had Lennox Lewis fought from 1960-1975 his record would be much patchier.

I think Liston would blow him out, and Ali would outclass him - I'd favour a prime Foreman to overwhelm him with power, and I think he'd lose at least once to Frazier in 3 fights. Someone like Shavers could put him to sleep early on an off night, it'd certainly be interesting to watch Lewis' performances in that era.

[fg2227]

That is the key i think, lewis hasn't fought anyone like Ali in regards to his hands and footspeed.It's very difficult to have an answer to his kind of speed.

[mcvey]

He wasn't so overweight that he couldn't box circles around Mathis.
Ali was a smart fighter, he knew when he had his work cut out for him. If a couple of extra pounds would work well vs Lewis, he would add them on. If he wanted to scale back and dance more, he could do that as well.

I admire your appreciation, for LL, I share the same. But the original question was, "is Ali big enough" I say of course he was.

The older they both got, the heavier they both got. Only natural. Some could say that Lewis best performance was 227 vs. Ruddock. If you want to tack on 15 more for Lewis over that performance, fine. But there is not a super, enormous weight difference there. Lets say Ali, 220. Lewis 245. Ali is going to be quicker of foot, faster of hand for sure. Better jaw most would say by anyone who isn't simply staunch Lewis.
I must admit that when I read your post about Ali being 227 ,my first reaction was to post you that this wasnt a good weight for Ali.On looking up his fights I found that he scaled224 1/2 for the Thrilla, 216 1/2 for the Rumble in the jungle,so you are about right

[ChrisPontius]

Ali was hardly in great shape for the Thrilla, though. And looked accordingly sloppy. Great fight but they were not nearly as well-conditioned and technically skilled as they were in their first meeting when both were 10lbs lighter.
Ali also looked more swift, accurate and quick at 216lbs vs Foreman.

[mr. magoo]

I've always been a great advocate for picking fighters of the 70's over greats of other eras. Lennox Lewis however, would have had a chance at great success in any period of the sport including the golden age. I would always give Ali the edge over Lewis, but he'd have his hands full, and if he clowned too much or became careless, could very conceivably end up with a loss. Lennox was a larger and better all around athlete than any Ali ever faced. He also had the best combination of boxing ability and punching power of almost any heavyweight in history. Sure, there were better punchers and boxers, but probably none who were as well rounded in both areas as Lewis. This type of fighter would have been a big problem for any all time great champion including Ali.

Unfortunately, Lewis will always have to drag the McCall and Rahman losses around like a ball and chain. These defeats would not be so much of a problem, except critics prefer to look at these performances for face value while ignoring the underlying truths beneath them. Lewis was 35 years old when he suffered the Rahman loss, and the McCall outcome was possibly the result of a premature stoppage. What's more, is that few ever give him credit for avenging both losses, when many fighters couldn't get over the phsychological trauma of having been beaten the first time.

Ali by close decision, but he'd have to be at his absolute best to pull it off.

[mr. magoo]

He handled Williams, Terrel, A. B. Lewis, Mathis', etc. size, so I would think so.:good

I don't think that any of these men can be even remotely compared to the type of fighter Lewis was. Although, I would still favor Ali.

[MrMagic]

People underrate Ali's size.. he's 6'3 and carries a solid amount of muscles.
Ali can rock any man, let alone Lewis who's had his record of getting tagged and counted out. Ali would obviously have a great chance.

[mcvey]

Ali was hardly in great shape for the Thrilla, though. And looked accordingly sloppy. Great fight but they were not nearly as well-conditioned and technically skilled as they were in their first meeting when both were 10lbs lighter.
Ali also looked more swift, accurate and quick at 216lbs vs Foreman.
Well their first meeting was 4 years earlier,the y had accumulated some mileage through tough fights by then, Ali had crammed in 18 fights,includin g tough battles like the 2 with Norton,the fight with Lyle the 2nd Frazier fight and the Rumble where he took a lot of punishment to the body,Frazier had been soundly beaten by Ali in a return ,half killed by Foreman ,you would expect these fights to start to show wouldnt you? Both men were older and slower yet stil put on a memorable battle,comparable with any heavyweight fight Ive seen for a while any way.

[ChrisPontius]

Of course, you can't blame them for declining after the wars they've been in.

I just pointed out that their best weights were a lot lighter than that. If Ali comes in at 227lb he's gonna get beaten by Lewis.

[Vanboxingfan]

Is it just me or is Lennox getting a bit overrated, in regards to george and lennox, i think style wise this is a nightmare for lennox.

I don't know about Lewis being overrated. No less than The Ring magazine picked Lewis in a Lewis - Foreman mythical match up. So certainly many, many people think Lewis has a decent chance to beat Foreman. Foreman himself (which strangely enough doesn't carry much weight) said he thought Lewis was a combination of himself and Ali and that Lewis was the best fighter ever..this was just after the Tyson fight. ..(course Foreman said a lot of things, many of which were nonesensical)

[Vanboxingfan]

That is the key i think, lewis hasn't fought anyone like Ali in regards to his hands and footspeed.It's very difficult to have an answer to his kind of speed.

I think it's safe to say neither fighter has fought a fighter with the same attributes. Lewis never fought an Ali type fighter and Ali never fought anyone with the skills and size of Lewis.

[Vanboxingfan]

People underrate Ali's size.. he's 6'3 and carries a solid amount of muscles.
Ali can rock any man, let alone Lewis who's had his record of getting tagged and counted out. Ali would obviously have a great chance.

Well if Ali was a knock out artist this comes as news to me. Outside of beating Foreman who obviously punched himself out, and Liston, who may even have thrown the second fight, he wasn't known as a KO artist by any stretch.

[Chaney]

Well if Ali was a knock out artist this comes as news to me. Outside of beating Foreman who obviously punched himself out, and Liston, who may even have thrown the second fight, he wasn't known as a KO artist by any stretch.Bonavena, Lyle?

[mcvey]

Of course, you can't blame them for declining after the wars they've been in.

I just pointed out that their best weights were a lot lighter than that. If Ali comes in at 227lb he's gonna get beaten by Lewis.
Prime for prime Alis best weight was around 212 , I think,what would you sayLL's was? By the way I think Lewis gives any Heavy a great fight,just think Ali's speed would be the deciding edge,if Lewis didnt have those 2 blots on his record ,where would he rate I wonder?

[prime]

Ali wouldn't need to "handle" Lewis' size, as he is not going to (literally) carry him, nor need to land and clinch.

Ali would use his lateral speed to cruise to a points victory a la Williams. Lewis, who subscribed to Ali's boxing philosophy of "hit and not get hit", would be dazzled and frustrated by his master.

[Vanboxingfan]

Bonavena, Lyle?

Believe what you want.

His KO ratio is around 60% and I've watched him fight longer than I care to remember, and I've been on these forums for well over 5 years, and this is the first time I've ever heard Ali called a knock out artist.

Sure he knocked out a few fighters, you'd expect someone with his ability to do so, but it wasn't his forte'. He also didn't make the Rings top 100 punches, unlike many notable heavyweights, such as Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Lewis, Tua, Foreman, Shavers, Liston, Tyson, Jeffries, hell, even Holyfield make this list.

[groove]

Actually his 1960-67 KO ratio was over 80%. 24 KO's in 29. He was not a big puncher but he stopped many top opponents (Liston, Patterson, Quarry, Foreman, Lyle, Bonavena, Ellis) excluding Frazier and Norton. Ali's KO ratio plummeted from 1975 onwards when he was getting past it (think Dunn was the only one).

[Chaney]

Believe what you want.

His KO ratio is around 60% and I've watched him fight longer than I care to remember, and I've been on these forums for well over 5 years, and this is the first time I've ever heard Ali called a knock out artist.

Sure he knocked out a few fighters, you'd expect someone with his ability to do so, but it wasn't his forte'. He also didn't make the Rings top 100 punches, unlike many notable heavyweights, such as Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Lewis, Tua, Foreman, Shavers, Liston, Tyson, Jeffries, hell, even Holyfield make this list.Sorry, Van, I didn't mean to be awkward. I am fundamentally in agreement with you...Ali was not a knockout specialist. His style was to rely on speed, mobility and volume, rather than power. Ali could bang when he chose to (Smokin' Joe never KO'd Bonevena, and Foreman had to dig extremely deep to KO Lyle), but that was not Ali's primary method.

[janitor]

Well Lewis is certainly starting to get some respect around here.

He seems near even money against both Louis and Ali.

Perhaps things have swung too far the other way now.

[janitor]

Sure he knocked out a few fighters, you'd expect someone with his ability to do so, but it wasn't his forte'. He also didn't make the Rings top 100 punches, unlike many notable heavyweights, such as Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Lewis, Tua, Foreman, Shavers, Liston, Tyson, Jeffries, hell, even Holyfield make this list.

While Ali was not a great finisher he did tend to get the job done inside the distence one way or another.

[True Writer]

I've said many times on this site that Lewis is just to big, strong and skillful to lose to Ali. I know everybody loves Ali but if they had ever fought I think their could even be the chance that this is an easy night for Lewis - a shut out or KO, what does Ali have in his arsenal to worry lewis. Lewis' size, strength, smart, skill and power would nulify Ali's only advantage of speed. Lewis wins this.

[ChrisPontius]

Prime for prime Alis best weight was around 212 , I think,what would you sayLL's was? By the way I think Lewis gives any Heavy a great fight,just think Ali's speed would be the deciding edge,if Lewis didnt have those 2 blots on his record ,where would he rate I wonder?

Ironically, my opinion of how this fight would turn out (Ali wins 2 out of 3 on speed and stamina) would not change if he had not been taken out by McCall and Rahman.

What would've happened if the referee that waved Lewis-McCall I off had referereed Clay-Cooper?
Then it would read Cooper TKO3 Ali. And we'd have a poster here called "Czakman" who would reply every Ali thread with "Well, if a 185 pound journeyman like Cooper could do it, then surely......". :D

But what i wanted to say is that those two knockout losses are pretty irrelevant here because Ali does not carry that kind of one-punch knock out power.

Where he'd rank without those two losses? He'd have a good argument for the #1 spot and would be locked in the top3 for sure.

[True Writer]

Head to Head its hard to pick any heavyweight over an in shape motivated Lewis.

[Secern]

I don't think any boxer ever could beat the George Foreman of 1973-74. Ali did, but that rope dance had nothing to do with boxing and George kinda beat himself by becoming completely exhausted. After that fight George was never the same as he would slow down the pace in his fights. No more devastating onslaughts. I believe that the Foreman who almost killed Frazier would have done the same to any other boxer - including Lewis - and of course excepting Ali. :blood

[werety]

No Ali couldnt. Lennox Lewis is basically God because he is big and skilled, at least thats how people make it seem on these forums.

[anut]

A veteran Holyfield managed to keep Lewis at bay for 24 rounds. Imagine how a peak Ali would take away Lennox's legs with constant movement. Ali has advantages in hand and foot speed, faster reflexes and a better chin. For Lennox Ali is a horror opponent.

AGREEEEED:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[Woddy]

A veteran Holyfield managed to keep Lewis at bay for 24 rounds. Imagine how a peak Ali would take away Lennox's legs with constant movement. Ali has advantages in hand and foot speed, faster reflexes and a better chin. For Lennox Ali is a horror opponent.

Was Lewis in his prime when he fought Holyfield? I Believe Lennox was just a mere 2 years younger than Evander. Also, what does Ali have in common with Holyfield? Holyfield had the build and physique to stand in front of Lewis and gut out a 12 round fight without staying on the outside where he might have been subjected to his incredible jab and reach.

I agree that Ali should be favored against Lewis, but this is not a good comparison.

[Sizzle]

Head to Head its hard to pick any heavyweight over an in shape motivated Lewis.

For a nuthugger perhaps.

He was crushed by McCall and Rahman, and outboxed by Ray Mercer.

His best two victories were against fighters greatly on the decline.

Ali's speed, movement, and reflexes would bother him to no end.

[Holmes' Jab]

Lewis at his inshape, foccused best is a very dangerous threat to any other great HW in history. I don't see him defeating a prime 60's Ali (who's just too slick, speedy and evasive), but I believe he'd have a decent shot stylistically at beating him at any point from '71 through '74. Any time after that you'd have to favour Lewis.



*Speaking of Ali, an interesting point is that despite the 70's version having lost something in terms of pure speed and his ability to dance for a full fight duration; he was certainly more proven in terms of durability, chin and mental toughness during this era than earlier and had a less tendancy to showboat. As well as that he became a more adept 'strategic' fighter. These are certainly interesting permutations to consider, despite regarding 60's version of Ali as his absolute prime.

[Mendoza]

As an Ali fan i'm not so sure, What do you guys think?


Yes. Ali was not a small fighter. He had an inch of height, and a few inches of reach on Holyfiled who was competitive with Lewis despite being slightly past his prime.

I think Ali would have more trouble with the speed, skills, and power of Lewis, than Lewis sheer size.

Ali vs Lewis is a hard fight for Ali. Ali could not clinch Lewis behind the head ( Watch out for that Lewis uppercut ) , would need to adjust his guard to watch out for the Lewis right hand, and could not count on Lewis falling for something like the rope-a-dope.

Ali would need to be at his best to win here. Being at his best is the 64-67 Ali who had an abundance of stamina, footwork, and speed. The good jabbers could win rounds from Leiws. The best version of Ali could beat Lewis, but I think the 70's version of Ali would likely lose to Lewis.

[Vanboxingfan]

I personally think that if they fought, and they both were in their prime, Lewis would win by a decision. His power, and reach would be something that Ali's speed couldn't overcome. And a younger Lewis was also a lot faster than many have given him credit for. He wasn't Ali fast, but he wasn't Foreman slow either.

As much as I like Ali, he's become a myth, and of course you can't beat a myth now can you? But I think Holmes and Lewis would both have a good chance of beating him, perhaps Tyson as well. And if Foreman could ever have paced himself better and had more of the attributed he had in his comeback years, he too might have had a chance. But in his case, his lack of speed and his tendency to loop his punches would always be something a prime Ali would exploit.

[True Writer]

True Vanboxingfan True

[ChrisPontius]

Ali vs Lewis is a hard fight for Ali. Ali could not clinch Lewis behind the head ( Watch out for that Lewis uppercut ) , would need to adjust his guard to watch out for the Lewis right hand, and could not count on Lewis falling for something like the rope-a-dope.



Good point. Lewis landed a gigantic uppercut on Vitali after some clinches from both sides, and Vitali can tie Lewis up much easier than Ali because he is two inches taller instead of shorter.

[mr. magoo]

Yes. Ali was not a small fighter. He had an inch of height, and a few inches of reach on Holyfiled who was competitive with Lewis despite being slightly past his prime.

I think Ali would have more trouble with the speed, skills, and power of Lewis, than Lewis sheer size.

Ali vs Lewis is a hard fight for Ali. Ali could not clinch Lewis behind the head ( Watch out for that Lewis uppercut ) , would need to adjust his guard to watch out for the Lewis right hand, and could not count on Lewis falling for something like the rope-a-dope.

Ali would need to be at his best to win here. Being at his best is the 64-67 Ali who had an abundance of stamina, footwork, and speed. The good jabbers could win rounds from Leiws. The best version of Ali could beat Lewis, but I think the 70's version of Ali would likely lose to Lewis.

This is probably a very realistic assesment of the situation, and frankly I agree. Although I would give the edge to Ali in this matchup, Lewis would pose a great threat to Muhammad no matter what phase of his career he was in. Ali would certainly have to be at his peak, and giving the best performance of his career just to pull off a close decision. The time for him to do this would have been during the late 60's, and not after his career had been divided by a near 4 year layoff.

[C. M. Clay II]

More like 'Could Chinnox handle Ali's combinations?'

What? No Quitssius?:lol:

[JIm Broughton]

Very interesting matchup to say the least. The bottom line is that neither fighter ever faced anyone quite like each other. Lewis never fought a man with Ali's speed and reflexes not to mention chin and durability and Ali never fought a man with Lewis' size and solid boxing skills not to mention power. Ali's best fighting weight was around 215lbs while Lewis' was around 240 lbs. That's a considerable weight pull in Lewis' favor. Ali would be wise to avoid clinching with Lennox who had a powerful uppercut and was probably stronger than Ali but Lewis would be wise to not expend alot of energy chasing Ali all around the ring and tiring himself out and setting himself up for a quick counter right hand that sets up a fight ending flurry by Ali (think of Foreman and Lyle). I see this fight as a chess match rather than a brawl with Ali keeping on his toes and sending in fast accurate shots and then getting the hell out of there before Lewis can land his bombs. It would'nt be easy for Ali because he would be fighting a very big skilled man with a good jab. I can see Lewis rocking Ali a few times with his right hand and hook but not being quick enough to follow up. I pick Ali by decision with his movement and hand speed being the deciding factor(s) but I would'nt be shocked if Lennox won either. Tough one to call in my opinion.

[Langford]

well,

I guess if Ali vs. Lewis is a close one, with many people picking Ali to actually lose, then can there be a doubt that Lennox Lewis is top five ATG?

Man and I remember all those "the heavyweights from this era suck" conversations years ago when Lennox was champ.

[Langford]

also,

If Lennox is top five ATG, can Wlad be that far behind?

[Vanboxingfan]

also,

If Lennox is top five ATG, can Wlad be that far behind?

I think it depends on how you define an ATG. For example if you were to rate Lewis on a head to head basis he'd be pretty high, perhap top 5, but if you took into account his career accomplishments, he might be considerably lower, and if you blended the two you might get some kind of mid-point. So Wlad for example might be a top 10 for h2h, but perhaps a top 20, if that, for career accomplishments. So the answer is yes, Wlad can be far behind, if you focus on career accomplishments and longivity at the top., but if you're focus is only h2h he's probably near the top 10

[ChrisPontius]

Man and I remember all those "the heavyweights from this era suck" conversations years ago when Lennox was champ.

That doesn't mean much. In every single era, most people say "these heavyweights aren't worth anything". Marciano was a sloppy, slow puncher, Patterson had a glass chin, Liston didn't have many challenges, Clay was fragile and ran, etc etc etc. It's natural to long back to the "old days".

I expect Lewis to hit the top5 in most lists as the next 10 years go by.

[Sizzle]

That doesn't mean much. In every single era, most people say "these heavyweights aren't worth anything". Marciano was a sloppy, slow puncher, Patterson had a glass chin, Liston didn't have many challenges, Clay was fragile and ran, etc etc etc. It's natural to long back to the "old days".

I expect Lewis to hit the top5 in most lists as the next 10 years go by.

Don't get your hopes up.

[Vanboxingfan]

Don't get your hopes up.

I don't think he's all that far off even now. A fair number of posters have him there, and certainly most have them in their top 10.

My guess is that if you did a poll, about 80% of the posters would have them in their top 10 and about 1/3 to a 1/2 of those would have him in their top 5.

At the very least he deserved more respect when he was fighting. Some found him boring but most of the time he found a way to win, and sometimes it was in devasting fashion.

[mcvey]

Very interesting matchup to say the least. The bottom line is that neither fighter ever faced anyone quite like each other. Lewis never fought a man with Ali's speed and reflexes not to mention chin and durability and Ali never fought a man with Lewis' size and solid boxing skills not to mention power. Ali's best fighting weight was around 215lbs while Lewis' was around 240 lbs. That's a considerable weight pull in Lewis' favor. Ali would be wise to avoid clinching with Lennox who had a powerful uppercut and was probably stronger than Ali but Lewis would be wise to not expend alot of energy chasing Ali all around the ring and tiring himself out and setting himself up for a quick counter right hand that sets up a fight ending flurry by Ali (think of Foreman and Lyle). I see this fight as a chess match rather than a brawl with Ali keeping on his toes and sending in fast accurate shots and then getting the hell out of there before Lewis can land his bombs. It would'nt be easy for Ali because he would be fighting a very big skilled man with a good jab. I can see Lewis rocking Ali a few times with his right hand and hook but not being quick enough to follow up. I pick Ali by decision with his movement and hand speed being the deciding factor(s) but I would'nt be shocked if Lennox won either. Tough one to call in my opinion.
Good Post,I too go with Ali but not an easy fight Ali would have to be at his best,his speed would be the decider,imo.

[mcvey]

Ironically, my opinion of how this fight would turn out (Ali wins 2 out of 3 on speed and stamina) would not change if he had not been taken out by McCall and Rahman.

What would've happened if the referee that waved Lewis-McCall I off had referereed Clay-Cooper?
Then it would read Cooper TKO3 Ali. And we'd have a poster here called "Czakman" who would reply every Ali thread with "Well, if a 185 pound journeyman like Cooper could do it, then surely......". :D

But what i wanted to say is that those two knockout losses are pretty irrelevant here because Ali does not carry that kind of one-punch knock out power.

Where he'd rank without those two losses? He'd have a good argument for the #1 spot and would be locked in the top3 for sure.
Thats what I meant Chris ,Lennox's raing as an ATG,I dont think the 2 losses are relevant here really.

[chimba]

A veteran Holyfield managed to keep Lewis at bay for 24 rounds. Imagine how a peak Ali would take away Lennox's legs with constant movement. Ali has advantages in hand and foot speed, faster reflexes and a better chin. For Lennox Ali is a horror opponent.

this is post number 7 but everyone is all hyped up and no one seems to want to read...this answer alone should close the thread

Let me add by saying this is Prime Lewis against Faded Evander

And I think Lewis is Top 10 ATG Heavies...

[Vanboxingfan]

A veteran Holyfield managed to keep Lewis at bay for 24 rounds. Imagine how a peak Ali would take away Lennox's legs with constant movement. Ali has advantages in hand and foot speed, faster reflexes and a better chin. For Lennox Ali is a horror opponent.

Except for the chin part, you could pretty much say the same thing about Roy Jones and Chris Byrd, but I don't think either of them would beat Lewis.

[dmt]

Of course though it woudn't be thateasy

[Vanboxingfan]

The biggest problem Ali has is that he tends to go straight back when pressured, which isn't good, and he is known to keep his hand low, which also isn't good against a fighter of Lewis' caliber. Finally he has a very limited inside fighting game, and doesn't really throw body punches. So he basically relies on his speed, his jab and his chin and his counter punching ability.

His chin isn't going to win him a fight, it's just going to keep him from being KO'd. So he has speed of both hand and feet, but not a particular great defense, if pressured. So he may win a decision, but he could also loose a decision and he could even get KO's if he was sloppy and he got trapped on the ropes or in a corner. I would say that Lewis might not win, but he has more ways in which he can win.

[Duodenum]

Ali by lopsided decision, especially over 15 rounds. He handily took care of taller skilled opponents like Terrell, Bugner and Mathis, bigger punchers like Foreman, Shavers, Lyle and Mac Foster, and at 212 would have easily hit Lewis without getting hit in return. Bugner was taller, fast and well-schooled, but hardly competitive. From what little I've seen of Chinnox, he had nothing resembling the sort of attributes needed to mount a serious challenge against a peak Muhammad. Sure, Chinnox would go the distance, but the outcome would never be in doubt.

Many cite the fact Chinnox would have been too tall for Ali to yank down on his head in the clinches, but Muhammad demonstrated with Bugner, Terrell and Wepner that this was no kind of essentiality in his approach to wearing down an adversary.

Larry Holmes chewed up and spit out the bones of the bigger and skilled Leroy Jones, as well as the much taller power hooking Cooney without difficulty. Boxers the calibre of Ali and Holmes do that to bigger and slower victims. Against a peak Ali, I give a peak Chinnox four out of 15 rounds tops. Size and strength are useless against an endurance athlete with that kind of speed and mobility, and no heavyweight had the combination of speed and mobility a peak Ali possessed.

[ChrisPontius]

Comparing Lennox's abilities with likes of Ernie "i do nothing for 12 out of 15 rounds" Terrel, Joe "after 3 rounds i fall asleep" Bugner and Mathis... :dead

Lewis has a MUCH better punching arsenal to take out (or let's say, be able to hit) a master boxer like Ali than Foreman, Shavers, Lyle and Foster did. They were much slower and more crude.

Lewis isn't going to punch himself out with wide looping shots in which he only hits a sitting duck a few times a round while leaving himself completely open nor is he going to quit on his stool after 6 rounds.

[Chaney]

The biggest problem Ali has is that he tends to go straight back when pressured, which isn't good, and he is known to keep his hand low, which also isn't good against a fighter of Lewis' caliber. Finally he has a very limited inside fighting game, and doesn't really throw body punches. So he basically relies on his speed, his jab and his chin and his counter punching ability.

His chin isn't going to win him a fight, it's just going to keep him from being KO'd. So he has speed of both hand and feet, but not a particular great defense, if pressured. So he may win a decision, but he could also loose a decision and he could even get KO's if he was sloppy and he got trapped on the ropes or in a corner. I would say that Lewis might not win, but he has more ways in which he can win.On paper, of course, you are right. Ali did most everything wrong from an orthodox point of view, and should have been easy meat for more technically correct fighters. My father used to despair of young Cassius Clay, saying he would get nailed as soon as he stepped up in class, because he held his hands too low.

But as we all know, Ali was somehow able to throw out the rulebook and still consistently win; even against the best talent pool in heavyweight history. Ali had some kind of an 'X factor' that enabled him to persevere in a way that no other heavyweight could.

Heck, call me a romantic, but Ali had a lot more magic than Lennox Lewis, even if Lewis ticks more boxes on paper.

[fg2227]

the problem lennox has is trying to get near to Ali, sonny liston couldn't do it(in actual fact no one could).

[Duodenum]

Comparing Lennox's abilities with likes of Ernie "i do nothing for 12 out of 15 rounds" Terrel, Joe "after 3 rounds i fall asleep" Bugner and Mathis... :dead

Lewis has a MUCH better punching arsenal to take out (or let's say, be able to hit) a master boxer like Ali than Foreman, Shavers, Lyle and Foster did. They were much slower and more crude.Chris, it's not lost on me that you conveniently avoided mentioning Chuck "Driscoll-Pep" Wepner.Lewis isn't going to punch himself out with wide looping shots in which he only hits a sitting duck a few times a round while leaving himself completely open nor is he going to quit on his stool after 6 rounds.Well, the letter of the question concerned whether or not he could handle the size of Chinnox, and he in fact did this on a number of occasions. His punching arsenal may have been fine, but catching a young Ali (who had no problems going the 15 round distance with Terrell and Chuvalo, and actually conserved energy by dancing), and having an opportunity to punch often enough to even make a dent in the scoring, would be a different matter entirely.

[JohnThomas1]

Comparing Lennox's abilities with likes of Ernie "i do nothing for 12 out of 15 rounds" Terrel, Joe "after 3 rounds i fall asleep" Bugner and Mathis... :dead

Lewis has a MUCH better punching arsenal to take out (or let's say, be able to hit) a master boxer like Ali than Foreman, Shavers, Lyle and Foster did. They were much slower and more crude.

Lewis isn't going to punch himself out with wide looping shots in which he only hits a sitting duck a few times a round while leaving himself completely open nor is he going to quit on his stool after 6 rounds.

Fair claims.

[Vanboxingfan]

On paper, of course, you are right. Ali did most everything wrong from an orthodox point of view, and should have been easy meat for more technically correct fighters. My father used to despair of young Cassius Clay, saying he would get nailed as soon as he stepped up in class, because he held his hands too low.

But as we all know, Ali was somehow able to throw out the rulebook and still consistently win; even against the best talent pool in heavyweight history. Ali had some kind of an 'X factor' that enabled him to persevere in a way that no other heavyweight could.

Heck, call me a romantic, but Ali had a lot more magic than Lennox Lewis, even if Lewis ticks more boxes on paper.

I agree. The problem I have is I think your father was right..provided Ali fought a fighter who could exploit those shortcomings, and I think Lewis could. I also under the aspect of magic, when people consider this fight, most don't want Lewis to win, they want Ali. Therefore they will either knowingly or not. find ways to make their desired outcome come true. This basically means they will either enhance Lewis' faults or by into the Ali mythology that at his best he was unbeatable. And while I too am a great fan of Ali, the fact is, nobody is unbeatable, not Ali, not Lewis, it becomes more of a style issue. The funny part is both of these fights has the style to give each one of the trouble. However, if you go further and look at the ways they will win, and their shortcomings, I think the outcome favours Lewis.

[MachineGunMitch]

I dont think Lennox was even close to being fast enough to hit a 210lb ali

[Vanboxingfan]

I dont think Lennox was even close to being fast enough to hit a 210lb ali

Maybe, but that logic leads you to believe a Byrd or Roy Jones could beat Lewis, which I don't think is true, neither do I think that the younger version of Lewis was particularly slow.

[JohnBKelly]

I like Lennox he was a great heavyweight fighter possibly the best of his era. He was not perfect by any means, he could be Kayoed by a single shot. His right hand up to around 94 was delivered like a cricket fast bowler in a huge looping arch, even Chanet could dodge it. Later in his career he would fall back on this shot when he was tired or under pressure. Ali could have landed 9 or ten shots while Lennox wound up one of these babies.

Lennox began to peak after the second McCall fight. Any match up between Ali and the young Lewis could end in an Ali KO win, think Ron Lyle for examples. In those days Lennox had a decent jab but no weapon other than size to trouble Ali.

After the second McCall fight Lewis was a more schooled fighter thanks to Manny Steward. He had an uppercut he could repeat consistently and a straighter right. He wasn't lightning fast and he could still be hurt. Under pressure he would stand off. The big question is could Lewis force Ali to try to lead early in the fight so that Lennox could set him up for one of his power shots. I don't think so, Lewis simply couldn't counter fast enough to surprise Ali. This kind of stuff might work against Tua or Bruno but never a speed merchant like Ali.

If Lennox takes the fight to Ali, to win he needs to cut off the ring like Foreman and fight at fast pace, whaling away at Ali's body. This doesn't add up either, Lennox's feet aren't fast enough and he couldn't match Frazier or even Norton's workrate for more than four rounds. I don't even remember him being able to throw bombs constantly the way Shavers did against Ali.

Maybe Lennox could try his usual walk in behind the jab mixed up with some right crosses and uppercuts. If that worked against Ali then Sonny Liston would still be champ.

So what advantage does Lennox have over Ali, oh yes size! To use this advantage Lennox needs to get close and start wrestling. Hard to do when your opponent is as slippery as Ali. Ali would negate this advantage by running the legs off Lennox, moving every time Lennox tried to set himself. A real matador performance.

Other than the above Lennox has a great chance against the Ali who fought, say....... Spinks or maybe Evangelista.

[Chaney]

Under the aspect of magic, when people consider this fight, most don't want Lewis to win, they want Ali. Therefore they will either knowingly or not. find ways to make their desired outcome come true. This basically means they will either enhance Lewis' faults or by into the Ali mythology that at his best he was unbeatable.I can't deny it. What you say is true...I would prefer Ali to win. So I can see your point about that clouding one's judgement.

I still reckon it would be a great fight though!

[Vanboxingfan]

I can't deny it. What you say is true...I would prefer Ali to win. So I can see your point about that clouding one's judgement.

I still reckon it would be a great fight though!

Me too, and obviously either fighter could end up winning.

[ChrisPontius]

Chris, it's not lost on me that you conveniently avoided mentioning Chuck "Driscoll-Pep" Wepner.Well, the letter of the question concerned whether or not he could handle the size of Chinnox, and he in fact did this on a number of occasions. His punching arsenal may have been fine, but catching a young Ali (who had no problems going the 15 round distance with Terrell and Chuvalo, and actually conserved energy by dancing), and having an opportunity to punch often enough to even make a dent in the scoring, would be a different matter entirely.

Fair enough, but i think the thread starter meant if Ali could handle someone of Lewis' size AND talent.

And whether or not Lewis can find Ali.. an old, slow Folley could find a peak Ali plenty of times with the right hand going even with him untill his glass chin gave up on him.

Of course this argument goes both ways, but it would be very hard for both men.

[Bill Butcher]

Prime ali of 67 could handle lewis fairly easily, he handled terrell.

Lewis is heavier than terrell but ali`s footspeed & movement in the 60s was the best there has ever been in any division, the best foot movement in the history of boxing & speed kills.

I dont see lewis getting settled in this fight at all.
Ali`s constant side to side & pulling away from punches would frustrate lewis all night long while building up a commanding lead on the cards.

Even when lewis does get to ali now & then, ali takes the punch very well & fires off a combo or 2 to keep the big man respectfull (Ali aint no soft puncher) all in all I see ali outboxing lewis & its the footspeed that wins it here.

Ali takes a 15 rd ud (possibly 10-5 or 11-4.)

[Vanboxingfan]

Ali by lopsided decision, especially over 15 rounds. He handily took care of taller skilled opponents like Terrell, Bugner and Mathis, bigger punchers like Foreman, Shavers, Lyle and Mac Foster, and at 212 would have easily hit Lewis without getting hit in return. Bugner was taller, fast and well-schooled, but hardly competitive. From what little I've seen of Chinnox, he had nothing resembling the sort of attributes needed to mount a serious challenge against a peak Muhammad. Sure, Chinnox would go the distance, but the outcome would never be in doubt.

Many cite the fact Chinnox would have been too tall for Ali to yank down on his head in the clinches, but Muhammad demonstrated with Bugner, Terrell and Wepner that this was no kind of essentiality in his approach to wearing down an adversary.

Larry Holmes chewed up and spit out the bones of the bigger and skilled Leroy Jones, as well as the much taller power hooking Cooney without difficulty. Boxers the calibre of Ali and Holmes do that to bigger and slower victims. Against a peak Ali, I give a peak Chinnox four out of 15 rounds tops. Size and strength are useless against an endurance athlete with that kind of speed and mobility, and no heavyweight had the combination of speed and mobility a peak Ali possessed.

Sorry but I can't take anyone's opinion seriously when they degrade one of the two people they are supposedly trying to analysis. Why not just say you don't like Lewis and be done with the topic? But I suppose it's better than protending to be impartial.

[Duodenum]

Sorry but I can't take anyone's opinion seriously when they degrade one of the two people they are supposedly trying to analysis. Why not just say you don't like Lewis and be done with the topic? But I suppose it's better than protending to be impartial.As anybody who follows my posts could assure you, I've degraded both of the two people I'm supposedly trying to analyze, not just one. I am an equal opportunity offender. (Stick around long enough, and you'll read plenty more I have to say about Ali that infuriates his fans.)

[Vanboxingfan]

As anybody who follows my posts could assure you, I've degraded both of the two people I'm supposedly trying to analyze, not just one. I am an equal opportunity offender. (Stick around long enough, and you'll read plenty more I have to say about Ali that infuriates his fans.)

How endearing..:lol: