James J Jeffries v.s John L Sullivan

[Bad_Intentions]

Bareknuckles.

Sullivan KO's Jeffries in the 24th round.

Note: if this thread has already been made, my apologies.

[rekcutnevets]

I say Jeffries by 8th round ko. Not a lot of film to judge these guys with, so I'm going with the fact that Jefferies would get into the ring with black people.

I'll give Sullivan to the 8th because he was rumored to be tough, and he has a list to prove it.

[Bad_Intentions]

I say Jeffries by 8th round ko. Not a lot of film to judge these guys with, so I'm going with the fact that Jefferies would get into the ring with black people.

I'll give Sullivan to the 8th because he was rumored to be tough, and he has a list to prove it.:rofl:rofl

[rekcutnevets]

Damn. Laila is hot. How many women can make you say that in boxing trunks and an unrevealing t-shirt?

[rekcutnevets]

By unrevealing, I mean low-cut.

[rekcutnevets]

Back to the "black people" comment. I am serious. Sullivan is still idolized by some people, and he was a racist asshole. I know you are supposed to be able to find good qualities about everyone, and he probably had some. I just can't get over someone claiming to be capable of "licking anyone in the place" or whatever he said, and not be willing to fight everyone in the place.

[Bad_Intentions]

Back to the "black people" comment. I am serious. Sullivan is still idolized by some people, and he was a racist asshole. I know you are supposed to be able to find good qualities about everyone, and he probably had some. I just can't get over someone claiming to be capable of "licking anyone in the place" or whatever he said, and not be willing to fight everyone in the place.well you have to understand that back in sullivan's prime, the african slaves were released 20-40 years ago, sullivan was born in 1859 and slavery was over way before he was born, so that's why some of those pioneer boxers were racist in their times. jeffries was racist a little bit, when he came back from his 6 year layoff he faced jack johnson who was the world heavyweight champion of the world, white people wanted him to loose the title because they didnt like a black man having the belt so they brought jeffries back at the age of 36 which is way past jeffries prime, he had to loose close to 80 pounds to get in shape like he was in during his prime, he was too wasted, didnt get enough time to train and spar, got TKO'D by johnson and lost, the funny thing is that when jeffries came back he said '' I'm going to prove that the white man is better than a NEGRO''.

[rekcutnevets]

Like I said, I look for the good in people. Jeffries was at least willing to try to prove he could beat someone different from him, even if he would get on my nerves for being racist too. Sullivan wouldn't do the same. Not even for a racist cause. He was too racist to prove a racist's way of feeling superior.

[Bad_Intentions]

sullivan wasn't racist, he was just scared to fight black fighters.

[cross_trainer]

If it makes you feel any better, Sullivan did face prejudice himself as a son of two Irish immigrants. The Irish were looked upon as roughly the same as black people in the view of many English-descended Americans, and were treated accordingly. Sullivan did help, in his own peculiar way, to bring his own people closer to the mainstream.

[Lampley]

Like I said, I look for the good in people. Jeffries was at least willing to try to prove he could beat someone different from him, even if he would get on my nerves for being racist too. Sullivan wouldn't do the same. Not even for a racist cause. He was too racist to prove a racist's way of feeling superior.

I'm not sure I'd give Jeffries much credit here. He came back only because he was pressured into it, and had Johnson not held the title in the first place, it wouldn't have been an issue. Tommy Burns is the guy who deserves a little credit.

[Bad_Intentions]

If it makes you feel any better, Sullivan did face prejudice himself as a son of two Irish immigrants. The Irish were looked upon as roughly the same as black people in the view of many English-descended Americans, and were treated accordingly. Sullivan did help, in his own peculiar way, to bring his own people closer to the mainstream.i understand, but why did he decided to stay racist against blacks? when he knew that his people (The Irish) also faced prejudism?.

[mcvey]

Bareknuckles.

Sullivan KO's Jeffries in the 24th round.

Note: if this thread has already been made, my apologies.
Jeffries would outlast Sullivan ,he is too durable for John L's right hand to stop him ,bigger and stonger, bare knuckles would suit him,he gets to Sullivan late for a stoppage win.

[garymcfall]

i dont understand how you can really reach a conclusion on this fight, no one has seen john l sullivan fight.

[rekcutnevets]

Thank you garymcfall, I was making this point in another thread: Greb vs. Hagler.

[janitor]

Like I said, I look for the good in people. Jeffries was at least willing to try to prove he could beat someone different from him,

He tried to fight George Godfrey but the police stoped the fight.

His problem was not so much with black opponents it was with Peter Jackson.

[cross_trainer]

i understand, but why did he decided to stay racist against blacks? when he knew that his people (The Irish) also faced prejudism?.

Good question. I have no idea.

Perhaps he felt that racism against a group slightly lower on the social ladder was the only way to differentiate himself as "superior"...a similar reaction to the poor whites against blacks before and after the Civil War in the South.

But that would only be my supposition.

[Bad_Intentions]

Good question. I have no idea.

Perhaps he felt that racism against a group slightly lower on the social ladder was the only way to differentiate himself as "superior"...a similar reaction to the poor whites against blacks before and after the Civil War in the South.

But that would only be my supposition.it's ok.

i still have respect for sullivan, if it wasn't for him boxing would still be an illegal sport.

[McGrain]

I wonder what these two would talk about. You know, if they were just chewing the fat.

[janitor]

I wonder what these two would talk about. You know, if they were just chewing the fat.

Peter Jackson was Jack Johnson's hero. After he won the title he visited Jackson's grave.

Both were highly inteligent me who in a more enlightened era would not have needed to box to make their fortunes.

Ooops wrong thread.

[McGrain]

Peter Jackson was Jack Johnson's hero. After he won the title he visited Jackson's grave.

Both were highly inteligent me who in a more enlightened era would not have needed to box to make their fortunes.

Ooops wrong thread.


This is not the first surreal post you've made today. That swordfight one gave me the fear.

Getting enough meat with your veg?

[janitor]

This is not the first surreal post you've made today. That swordfight one gave me the fear.

Getting enough meat with your veg?

I am a tad stressed out today and it is making my post's more sureal.

[McGrain]

I am a tad stressed out today and it is making my post's more sureal.


No cure for life.

[Arthur]

Well, since i've never senn SUllivan fight i cant really predict who would win. However, it's most interesting to note that many people who saw both men fight in their prime said that Jeffries would of beaten Sullivan. They were actually quite confident in that opinion. THats good enough for me. :good

[Irish Steel]

Well Sullivan fought some fights in the bare knuckle era, and was the last bare knuckle champ, so his style was obviouslt better suited to it. Both had good endurance, but I would say sullivans was better. Have you ever heard of someone knocking another person out in the 75th round except for him? No, i didnt think so. Jeffries had endurance, but not that much. (at least i dont thyink so) Sullivan KO's Jeffries in 35

[amhlilhaus]

sullivan never fought a black fighter, a huge black mark on his record, but look at the black fighters in his prime (pre 1888) and none of them would have stood a chance, not godfrey, smith or any of the others. sullivan was washed up by the time peter jackson came on the scene, and not only did sullivan duck jackson, he didn't really want to fight anyone, either corbett or slavin, but eventually corbett raised the high stake money and look what he did to sullivan.

sullivan was afraid of no black fighters, it's impossible to impose our modern sensibilities on historical times, a couple of hundred years ago they would pull criminals apart with horses, draw and quarter them, burned people at the stake and hangings galore, yet people considered it public entertainment and would bring their children to watch. we can't sit here and call them bad parents for doing that, it's just the way things were.

[mcvey]

No cure for life.
Yes there is but its pretty final.

[janitor]

sullivan never fought a black fighter, a huge black mark on his record, but look at the black fighters in his prime (pre 1888) and none of them would have stood a chance, not godfrey, smith or any of the others.

I tend to agree. When Sullivan fought Jake Kilrain he was indeed the best challenger available.

[mcvey]

I tend to agree. When Sullivan fought Jake Kilrain he was indeed the best challenger available.
This was a good win for Sullivan as he was coming back after a period of carousing and heavy drinking,William Muldoon got him in shape for this fight by threatening him with a baseball bat when he got out of line.

[janitor]

William Muldoon got him in shape for this fight by threatening him with a baseball bat when he got out of line.

Obviously that is what is missing from the training regime of the curent heavyweight beltholders. I would soon get them into fighting trim.

[mcvey]

:good :good :good

[Mendoza]

Bareknuckles.

Sullivan KO's Jeffries in the 24th round.

Note: if this thread has already been made, my apologies.

Here is an article on the two. A good read that describes the styles, and has the opinion of a few others.

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[eslubin]

Sullivan was like a bigger, stronger, better and meaner Sharkey. And Sharkey fought Jeffries to a standstill after 45 rounds of slugging. Sullivan had natural killer instinct. Jeffries was too nice/soft like Willard. A better athlete than Willard but smaller. Sullivan fed on pressure and attention while Jeffries shied away from it and shrank. Pressure whipped Jeffries. He wouldn't have the quickness to keep Sullivan honest. Yet all Sullivan would ask is that Jeffries come to hit and be hit. And Jeffries would do that and he'd get stopped
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[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[guilalah]

Arthur #24
Well, since i've never senn SUllivan fight i cant really predict who would win. However, it's most interesting to note that many people who saw both men fight in their prime said that Jeffries would of beaten Sullivan. They were actually quite confident in that opinion. THats good enough for me. :good


This wasn't unanimous. 'Prof.' Mike Donavan, around 1919, and light-weight champ Jack MacAulliffe, around the time of Carnera-Baer, both opined the Sullivan they saw was the greatest heavyweight they'd ever seen.

Sullivan, in 1907, was interviewed to the effect that boxing had progressed greatly since his time and Jeffries, and that, each of them matched just as they were at their best, Jeffries would have won. (I would not view that, however, as a concession that Jeffries would ahve won had they both come along at the same time).

Anyways, I think Jeffries would have likely won if they'd fought just as they were at their best; but I'm very unsure who would have prevailed if one had come along in the others time, developing in analogy to how he developed in his own time.

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My own view of Sullivan's prime was that it was from mid-1881 (when his punches started straightening out under Madden's tutelage) through mid-1883 (after which he began to take a more casual attitude to training and drink).